Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[ForceStealer]

....Are you fucking for real? If the game constantly keeps throwing random plot shit behind you in its efforts to keep you in every possible way from ever going back, to the point the game is told in chapter by chapter format, that makes sense? That's the removal of gameplay disconnect in keeping the story real and believable? Having some random whatchamafuck constantly happen that ever keeps you from going back?

I'm not entirely sure where you stopped talking about a lack of explorable cities and where you started talking about linearity...but I'm talking about cites.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thunder Plains are on the way to Guadosalam. Mushroom Rock is on the way to Djose from Mi'ihen Highroad. Only one that is rather out of the way, is "Home" where Dark Ifrit chillaxes until he sees you.

The only one that's really out of the way or not a place connected to Yevon, is Home. All those are paths to towns or villages, dude.

You have an airship. The only town that's not easily entered is Besaid (I don't remember if you can teleport directly into the town; I don't think so), and that's guarded by the weakest of the Dark Aeons.

So, yeah, man, these DAs are in out-of-the-way places. Put Ixion or Shiva beside the save sphere in Luca and you'll have an issue for Yuna and the game (i.e. the player).

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not entirely sure where you stopped talking about a lack of explorable cities and where you started talking about linearity...but I'm talking about cites.

It's all part of the same package to me. The linearity which is emphasized by the lack of explorable cities or towns, is what I'm criticizing. It's all one big fast track to the plot's inevitable conclusion.

The game is so damn focused on making sure you don't look back or sideways on the one-trip ride to the ending, that it comes up rather ridiculous, albeit, inventive ways to keep you from ever even thinking of straying from the path. Because FFXIII's a movie. And movies abhor non-linearity. All those explorative, customizable, RPG elements (tweaking your characters, taking branching paths, seeing towns, talking to NPCs, completing side missions, etc) get in the way of the whole plot and story of the game, so instead of integrating those elements into the plot.

They stripped it all away. That's the fact of the situation.

They've accommodated those actual RPG ELEMENTS with the plot for 20 fucking years. I'm doubtful that after 20 years they just thought, "god, I...I dont know how we can integrate this gameply into our deep, meaningful, and intricate plot and keep it consistent...oh bugger, what a shame..we'll just have to drop it all then!!!"

 

[Makoeyes987]

You have an airship. The only town that's not easily entered is Besaid (I don't remember if you can teleport directly into the town; I don't think so), and that's guarded by the weakest of the Dark Aeons.

So, yeah, man, these DAs are in out-of-the-way places. Put Ixion or Shiva beside the save sphere in Luca and you'll have an issue for Yuna and the game (i.e. the player).

Flying your huge ass airship all over the world, from town to town isn't quite the definition of discreet if you're trying not to be noticed cause you're wanted by the largest church in the world. You don't have to use the airship, especially if discretion is your goal in revisiting past locations. C'mon.

 

[Tetsujin]

The only one that's really out of the way or not a place connected to Yevon, is Home. All those are paths to towns or villages, dude.

The *entire game* is a path to towns or villages.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The *entire game* is a path to towns or villages.

Not really. The ruins of Home, Bikanel Desert, Omega Ruins, Remiem Temple, and a bunch of other places, aren't part of any discernible path to any sort of civilization.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Flying your huge ass airship all over the world, from town to town isn't quite the definition of discreet if you're trying not to be noticed cause you're wanted by the largest church in the world. You don't have to use the airship, especially if discretion is your goal in revisiting past locations. C'mon.

As the player, you don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock about discretion.

I thought we were talking about incorporating the plot with the gameplay? The player is not going to walk from one end of Spira to the other, unless they're a dumbass like me who did it once just for shits and giggles.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As the player, you don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock about discretion.

Well no shit.

I thought we were talking about incorporating the plot with the gameplay? The player is not going to walk from one end of Spira to the other, unless they're a dumbass like me who did it once just for shits and giggles.

Incorporating the act of revisiting past places of Spira you've visited (a gameplay mechanic) with the current believable state of of the story (you being wanted by Yevon) is what we're talking about.

Common sense regarding the story would state that while on the run from Yevon, they wouldn't use their airship to fly into each and every town. Or that there are even such thing as save points in the first place. They'd fly their airship somewhere isolated and *then* enter the town from the outside, as not to draw too much attention to themselves.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Incorporating the act of revisiting past places of Spira you've visited (a gameplay mechanic) with the current believable state of of the story (you being wanted by Yevon) is what we're talking about.

Common sense regarding the story would state that while on the run from Yevon, they wouldn't use their airship to fly into each and every town. Or that there are even such thing as save points in the first place. They'd fly their airship somewhere isolated and *then* enter the town from the outside, as not to draw too much attention to themselves.

Fair enough.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Again, sucks for them

While I agree with every word you've been saying, I disagree here. FFX International may be the definitive FFX experience, but it matters little if a grand total of fifteen people worldwide ever got to play it. You can't just sweep it under the rug and go 'TOO BAD FOR THEM LOL WELL I PLAYED IT', you have to admit at least its a boo boo on Square's part to make an upgraded version of a popular game, addressing plot and gameplay issues alike, and then not make it available to anyone.

You wouldn't be saying 'Again, sucks for them' if Square Enix made a FFVII remake but only made three copies and shipped two of those out to Iceland and tossed the last one in the Dead Sea, would you?

The 'outside universe' aspect of making your game playable to as many audiences as you can (ESPECIALLY if you go back and fix something) is just as important as the game itself.

 

[Tetsujin]

While I agree with every word you've been saying, I disagree here. FFX International may be the definitive FFX experience, but it matters little if a grand total of fifteen people worldwide ever got to play it.

It's a bit more than 15 people since the International version is the one Europe and Australia got.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah but who cares about them?

Spoiler

 

[Tetsujin]

Don't make me cut you.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Don't make me cut you.

Don't you mean "hug him"?

 

[Strangelove]

Bullshit. See FFX. Just because you're on the run and outsiders doesn't mean you're never, ever, going to run into people, or actually interact with the environment and culture of the world.

You still do meet some people. Most just don't like you that much/are too distracted by other things

Instead of actually talking to you, most of the NPCs in FFXIII are just saying their own thing and you get to hear it.

So point proven. It was possible, and actually done. Except half assed. That would've made the plot even better. Meeting people who do accept you, don't give a shit you're l'Cie, and don't fear you, while on the flip side meeting others who want to try and kill you.

He's called Hope's dad

 

[Loxetta]

On the subject of no NPCs --

It actually makes sense for there to be none. Being a l'Cie seems to be a huge issue in FF13's world. Hope doesn't want to stay at home because his dad could get punished by the government for harboring a l'Cie, and Serah hides it from her boyfriend because she is so deeply troubled and shamed by it. If she doesn't believe she'll find support even from the guy that loves her and wants to marry her, then it must be pretty hugely universal that l'Cie=scum, and it would be stupid to have some NPCs happily sit there and chat when at three party members have highly visible l'Cie marks.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I thought it was just everyone in Cocoon that was weirded out by this. There aren't any people in Pulse?

 

[shenron118]

From what I gather,

Spoiler

no, there aren't any people. Some 500 odd years ago when Fang and Vanille became l'Cie, their focus was to end a war between Cocoon and Pulse by the both of them becoming Ragnarok and destroying both people. Long story short, that plan failed, and only the people of Pulse were killed off. Oerba Village, for example, is the place where Fang and Vanille lived; no one lives there in gametime, and it's overrun by monsters and Cie corpses.

 

[Arianna]

Alright, I'm not sure, so I'm asking (yes, knowing I was two days late on the last article.) Does anyone want the two other articles I have regarding Final Fantasy XIII? One is an eight page article, and the other is a two page article.

Yesterday I received my copy of GameStop's GameInformer, and it has a short article (the two pager) on Final Fantasy XIII. I skimmed it - well, a bit of the first few paragraphs, and it seems like they are excited by it. *shrugs* I have no clue what that means - and I'm guessing no one else does, or possibly cares, either.

The eight pager is from Edge, a UK magazine that the local Border's carries. It's got some nice pictures - the baby chocobo is teh cutest! If anything, for the pictures...?

Let me know. Give me the weekend if the answer is yes (at least for someone) and at the very latest by Monday evening it should be up.

Hopefully earlier, but... We know me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd definitely like to see them.

Love EDGE and Game Informer.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah... this is just fucking ridiculous. Taken from FF-XIII.net

No Towns Because They Are Too Much Work

The game’s linearity was just because depicting towns and so on like we did before was impossible to do on an “HD” console – it was too much work.

Nomura had hardly anything to do with it; he just did character design and commercials, not even the intro or movies.

The game was designed with DLC in mind but we don’t actually have any planned.

It was easy to port to the Xbox. Porting to the PS3 is harder. The PS3 has more processing power but you have to do it properly.

Jumping was manual at first and you could jump onto the titans.

You used to be able to avoid enemy attacks in the field using the analogue stick, but due to difficulty considerations it was canned.

The battle team came up with the transforming summons. The art team was dead against them.

“I was thinking this time we would make it completely story-centric” – Toriyama.

So no towns because it was too much work to be done on a HD console? I guess The Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4, the Tales series, and Mistwalker studios missed the memo on that one.

Yeah, my faith in S-E just got cut in half. And they can stay the hell away from my FFVII please. There's seriously no justification for such blatant lazy development. LOL..

And people can quit blaming Nomura now for shit that wasn't even his fault.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I know I'm starting to sound like a raving fanboy, but Mass Effect 2 raised the bar so high for me I'm not sure what FF XIII can do for me anymore. Yes, I plan on playing it and giving it a chance on its own merits, but if Mass Effect 2 is a possible future for just how entertaining, personal, and impressive in every way video games can be nowdays, well...

It's only the beginning of 2010 and I can already say ME2 is probably flat out the singular best game I've ever had the experience of playing. S-E better step up their game. By a lot. People are starting to notice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The difference between FFXIII and Mass Effect 2, is like Heaven and Earth. The comparison is almost laughable; FFXIII almost appears dated, compared to most contemporary games today. A vestige of a bygone era.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The tragedy is that the difference isn't fundamental! It's not like S-E and Bioware are in two different leagues, or this is a David and Goliath comparison. The companies, at least as far as I can tell and correct me if I'm wrong, have access to similar resources, publicity, talent, and capital. They both have the capability to make a stellar, genre breaking game, and well, Bioware already has. Mass Effect 2 isn't the first time Bioware has struck gold, Mass Effect 1 was also great, and there's games like Dragon Age, and further back, Knights of the Old Republic.

I know FF-XIII hasn't come out yet. Nor am I expecting it to play like ME2 and be the same type of game. They aren't! But there are some aspects of quality that are universal.

Great voice acting (not just 'good', or 'good for a Japanese game.' I mean actual great voice acting. ME2 had Martin Sheen play the Illusive Man. Martin fucking Sheen! Get on the fucking ball with the voice acting, Japan. I know American voice actors aren't generally as devoted as Japanese ones, but good ones are out there. No more excuses.), an engaging setting, intuitive gameplay, a great plot, integration of the two (no separation of good plot/good gameplay, or ditching one in favor of the other. Games like Mass Effect proves that both can exist at the same time and even weave into each other), likable characters, and an overarching deal that you actually care about and throw yourself into, instead of just enjoying.

Mass Effect 2 gave me all of that, and so can Square Enix, if they get on the ball. But it's SE's misfortune that ME2 came out first, and well, they have a lot to live up to. Not just to me, but to everyone that likes both genres and plans to play both games.

 

[Winter]

So no towns because it was too much work to be done on a HD console? I guess The Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4, the Tales series, and Mistwalker studios missed the memo on that one.

I call bullshit on this one. One of my best friends is... very well versed in the technicalities of video games and is on her way into the industry. She's a WRPG fag and she just finished ME2 and fucking loved it, so I know she wouldn't kiss SE's ass. I asked her deliberately what she thought of this whole development, and she told me it wasn't lazy at all.

It sounded like laziness to me as well, until she told me that it was probably an honest to god near impossibility for SE. The way that SE renders cutscenes and even the battle sequences (how fast paced they are isn't easy to do) leaves very little room for them to render something that takes up as much space as towns. SE doesn't halfass towns, as nice as it would have been to have them it just wasn't something that was really worth the effort. Story wise, not having them works just fine (nobody interacts with L'Cie if they can help it) and from what I hear the game plays through smoothly without them.

It's sort of like when Nomura said that they didn't do much of Red XIII in AC because he was too hard to render; it wasn't so much laziness as it was not a good use of time. If he wasn't heavily plot relevant why is it logical for them to add him in a lot when he's absolutely time consuming for them to render? I don't remember anyone crying laziness there.

Star Ocean and the Tales series, despite being good games, do not have the graphical quality that FF games have. It's not simple "laziness"; development time and disc space are very, very important to the development of a game.

The difference between FFXIII and Mass Effect 2, is like Heaven and Earth. The comparison is almost laughable; FFXIII almost appears dated, compared to most contemporary games today. A vestige of a bygone era.

I don't think "appears" is the right word. Both games are gorgeous, and I actually prefer the graphics of FFXIII simply because I like cutscenes. The awakward makeout scenes in ME2 were sort of odd to me because of the outdated looking in-game graphics.

If you mean "plays like a dated game" or that the gameplay LOOKS dated, then I suppose you would have a point.

Great voice acting (not just 'good', or 'good for a Japanese game.' I mean actual great voice acting. ME2 had Martin Sheen play the Illusive Man. Martin fucking Sheen! Get on the fucking ball with the voice acting, Japan. I know American voice actors aren't generally as devoted as Japanese ones, but good ones are out there. No more excuses.)

This I can agree with. What the hell happened to the awesome voice acting in KH? Most JRPGs sound like absolute shit in terms of voice acting.


In defense of FFXIII, it has been years in the making. WRPGs are at the top of their game now, but back when FFXIII was first being developed they weren't nearly as popular as they are now (if I recall, I'm too lazy to double check my dates and remember). It's not like SE is the laziest fucking developer ever; FF games tend to branch out more than any other JRPG series.

I'm overtired and I hope all of this makes sense. That being said, if Final Fantasy and Mass Effect had a baby it would be a fucking masterpiece.