Sony's Spider-Man: Now a Part of the MCU; And Now Not Again; And Now Is Again

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's not any worse. =P

 

[Tennyo]

Yeah, dat star mask is the height of fashion.

Spoiler

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not saying it looks better. Just not worse. =P

They could have done better than either.

 

[Tennyo]

How does the original costume not look worse?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because the new one is just as ugly.

 

[Tennyo]

No it's not. The new one is leaps and bounds better.

 

[Carlie]

Spoiler: This is better

 

[Tennyo]

Are you kidding me? That is so much worse!

And it still has a star shaped mask. No thank you sir. :/

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You know that Electro's costume is supposed to look stupid right? Its a whole aspect of his character, that he was the kinda guy who thought that attack on all things super-villainous looked good. Because he's not very bright, lacks confidence in himself, and went a bit crazy with the peacocking when he got some real power (that he's still sorta shit at using thanks to the dimness and self-confidence issues, without which he'd be among the most dangerous super-beings on Marvel Earth). Plus it gives something for Pete to snark about right off the bat and tease mercilessly. So yeah, if he's gonna look stupid and ugly, I'd prefer the original brand of stupid and ugly to this smurf makeover they went with. Or the sorta compromise Carlie posted.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Again, you're looking at the early 616-Universe Electro Vs. his current design & the 1610-Universe Electro. They're clearly gonna go with what he looks like NOW, which is the glowing blue, "living electrical current" look, which makes his powers - like being able to transmit himself entirely through wiring as an electrical charge - a lot more believable just from a visual design perspective.

By that I mean that if he looks like a flesh and blood guy who can shoot electricity from himself, like the early design does, that would be a suitable design for him. But that look makes the idea that he'd be able to electrically transmit that living human body through a charge and re-form it PRETTY ridiculous. If his entire body already IS some hybridized living electrical current already, that type of power is something that's a lot easier to convey somewhat realistically, because he's just reforming himself, and not creating human cells from electricity* because powers that work well on screen are the ones that make sense visually (plus, it let's the VFX teams do more interesting things with them).

*Yeah, his costume probably travels with him, but superhero costumes are magic like that, like how Spidey can wall crawl despite the fact that he SHOULD need bare hands and feet.


tl;dr - it's because it's Electro's current design in the comics, and it makes the average audience member go, "Oh, ok." instead of, "Wait, wat." when he turns into pure electrical current and then reforms.


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[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, I totally get the reasons. It just looks very stupid and very Dr. Manhattan-y. They could have done better.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Again, you're looking at the early 616-Universe Electro Vs. his current design & the 1610-Universe Electro.

That's ONE of Max's current designs. The 1610 design, as you said. His current design on 616: http://marvel.wikia.com/Maxwell_Dillon_(Earth-616)?file=Avenging_Spider-Man_Vol_1_18_001.jpg

Its not nearly as stupid looking as either of the designs we've been discussing, and I'm honestly meh about it in general. Its better than some of his designs for sure. But, I prefer Electro, especially if we're going back to his origin story as the movie does, to look retarded as fuck.

They're clearly gonna go with what he looks like NOW,

ONE of the ways he looks now in a specific comic-verse. Since I've never been an Ultimate Marvel fan, you'll forgive me if I keep correcting the idea that this is Electro's ONLY current look. I'll at least try to keep myself from downplaying Ultimate in general, though I really wish it influenced film adaptations a bit less.

which is the glowing blue, "living electrical current" look, which makes his powers - like being able to transmit himself entirely through wiring as an electrical charge - a lot more believable just from a visual design perspective.

If you say so. I find the "turn into electricity and travel directly through power-lines" thing kinda... idunno. I don't like it. I prefer Electro's classic travel mode, where he hovers above power lines via manipulation of eddying electrical fields to form opposing magnetic fields and sorta skate down high tension lines or rail bridges and the like. Dude could hit 140 mph easy that way, and yet Spidey could... oh yeah... actually catch up and hit him. If you can just jump into a wall socket anytime you need to make a getaway and you still get caught/beaten, you're far dumber than Electro is supposed to be.

By that I mean that if he looks like a flesh and blood guy who can shoot electricity from himself, like the early design does, that would be a suitable design for him. But that look makes the idea that he'd be able to electrically transmit that living human body through a charge and re-form it PRETTY ridiculous.

See above for how much more sense Electro's use of his powers for travel in the 616-verse fits so much better, hence why he doesn't do the "turn into electricity and jump into power lines" trick there... he can't, and he shouldn't.

If his entire body already IS some hybridized living electrical current already,

Then Spidey shouldn't be able to punch and kick him and such, which is a staple of a good Spider-man fight (even if it does rely on non-conductive webbing spun into boxing gloves).

that type of power is something that's a lot easier to convey somewhat realistically, because he's just reforming himself, and not creating human cells from electricity* because powers that work well on screen are the ones that make sense visually (plus, it let's the VFX teams do more interesting things with them).

I scoff at the "somewhat realistically" but since it wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief either way, I'm fine with my opinion of that being dismissed As for the VFX teams doing more interesting things? How many ways can you animate electrical arcs spitting and striking out exactly? Aside from that and making an actor glow like a radioactive smurf... what interesting things we doing here?

*Yeah, his costume probably travels with him, but superhero costumes are magic like that, like how Spidey can wall crawl despite the fact that he SHOULD need bare hands and feet.

Poor example, Raimi!Spidey aside Spider-man's wall crawling works via electro-static attraction that works fine through thin materials like his costume. Which is why 616!Peter always takes off his shoes if he needs all four limbs to climb a wall. But yes, super-suits can do crazy shit even if Mr. Fantastic stays out of it with the unstable molecules and shit

tl;dr - it's because it's Electro's current design in the comics,

One of.

and it makes the average audience member go, "Oh, ok." instead of, "Wait, wat." when he turns into pure electrical current and then reforms.

I still advocate him just, y'know... not doing that. Then the average audience member can just fuck off with their inability to comprehend simple enough things, AND we can get some sweet sweet Science Hero action in when Peter figures out how he does the skating on high tension wires trick and disrupts it

Also, my nerdy discussion aside, whether its his current Ultimate Marvel look or not doesn't change the fact that he thus far looks like absolute shit

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think I may be the Human Torch, 'cause GLD just made me flame on.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I earned that gold trophy in "Biggest Non-FF Geek" just now, if I'm not mistaken

 

[Tennyo]

But it doesn't work in the new movie continuity.

It's like when your favorite books gets turned into a movie. If all you expect is a word-for-word interpretation, you may as well not even watch. Things have to change. Comic book geeks may love Electro as he used to be back in the day, but the average movie goer (where the vast majority of ticket sales will come from) isn't going to be as keen.

Besides, Electro being living electricity that can travel through wires and such is not something that is brand new. It may not be original vintage Electro, but it's what he has become over time. The design in the new movie is a perfect representation of that.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

That's ONE of Max's current designs. The 1610 design, as you said. His current design on 616: http://marvel.wikia.com/Maxwell_Dillon_(Earth-616)?file=Avenging_Spider-Man_Vol_1_18_001.jpg

To which I'd point out that when that 616 version of him is powered up looks very similar to his Ultimate form, especially as compared to this old 616 version of him, both current designs look more like TASM2's electro than they do the old, goofy Electro.

Its not nearly as stupid looking as either of the designs we've been discussing, and I'm honestly meh about it in general. Its better than some of his designs for sure. But, I prefer Electro, especially if we're going back to his origin story as the movie does, to look retarded as fuck.

Yeah, but having ridiculous-looking villains doesn't really match with the tone of building up a really serious supervillains group, which Sony is clearly working towards with their Sinister Six (you know, giving them their own movie and all). Plus, Electro is the ACTUAL super-powered villain of the whole film - it doesn't work if you take him the least seriously. Plus, Ultimate Electro is one of the more terrifying villains in terms of his powers and overall capacity.

ONE of the ways he looks now in a specific comic-verse. Since I've never been an Ultimate Marvel fan, you'll forgive me if I keep correcting the idea that this is Electro's ONLY current look. I'll at least try to keep myself from downplaying Ultimate in general, though I really wish it influenced film adaptations a bit less.

Check my aforementioned comment to see why I used "his current (lol electricity puns) look" earlier. Also, it should be mentioned that I generally don't keep track of anything in the Ultimate universe EXCEPT Spider-Man. Ultimate Comics Spider-Man is just lots and lots of awesome, and because a lot of the current Marvel films all take some degree of inspiration from that universe so it's always worth bringing up when discussing comic book films.

If you say so. I find the "turn into electricity and travel directly through power-lines" thing kinda... idunno. I don't like it. I prefer Electro's classic travel mode, where he hovers above power lines via manipulation of eddying electrical fields to form opposing magnetic fields and sorta skate down high tension lines or rail bridges and the like. Dude could hit 140 mph easy that way, and yet Spidey could... oh yeah... actually catch up and hit him. If you can just jump into a wall socket anytime you need to make a getaway and you still get caught/beaten, you're far dumber than Electro is supposed to be.

I'm saying that specifically because it's a power that he (seems to) have displayed within the trailers. It gives him that "ride a bolt of lightning" ability, but he also clearly still has a physical form that can be hit

Spoiler

(which, to use an obcious example is why Aunt May is able to shoot him through the chest in the Death of Spider-Man arc).

See above for how much more sense Electro's use of his powers for travel in the 616-verse fits so much better, hence why he doesn't do the "turn into electricity and jump into power lines" trick there... he can't, and he shouldn't.

True, and that'd make sense IF and ONLY IF this version of him was based on the more costumed ridiculous Electro, so "shouldn't" only really applies under those circumstances.

Then Spidey shouldn't be able to punch and kick him and such, which is a staple of a good Spider-man fight (even if it does rely on non-conductive webbing spun into boxing gloves).

See my above for addressing this.

I scoff at the "somewhat realistically" but since it wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief either way, I'm fine with my opinion of that being dismissed As for the VFX teams doing more interesting things? How many ways can you animate electrical arcs spitting and striking out exactly? Aside from that and making an actor glow like a radioactive smurf... what interesting things we doing here?

Since he's translucent, you can see his different physiological systems: You can still see the outlines of his circulatory system in his skin, and it looks like his central nervous system is done in orange as he starts getting more high-powered (he doesn't immediately have that in the newer trailer). This will probably also help to visually illustrate the fact that as he becomes injured, he becomes less stable, as well as if he may need to absorb more power, since he's probably not able to just perpetually generate his own energy (although this is just a guess based on visual cues from the trailers at this point). Additionally, when you watch his bolt-of-lightning-style transportation from 2:06 - End in the first trailer, it's because of how he looks physically that translates well visually, because he's just transmitting and reforming his own form.

Poor example, Raimi!Spidey aside Spider-man's wall crawling works via electro-static attraction that works fine through thin materials like his costume. Which is why 616!Peter always takes off his shoes if he needs all four limbs to climb a wall. But yes, super-suits can do crazy shit even if Mr. Fantastic stays out of it with the unstable molecules and shit

I still advocate him just, y'know... not doing that. Then the average audience member can just fuck off with their inability to comprehend simple enough things, AND we can get some sweet sweet Science Hero action in when Peter figures out how he does the skating on high tension wires trick and disrupts it

See, I think that this is because you're still looking for a different type of villain in terms of power and overall capabilities. Electro's role in TASM2 isn't as "just another villain" - which we're already getting from the other two - but as a force that Spidey'll have an exceptionally difficult time overcoming due to his powers in addition to their previous interactions (displayed in the newer trailer), which is serving to push the story arc of all the various directions to open up the other connections.

OsCorp is a MASSIVE player in things in the Ultimates Universe: Spider-Woman, BOTH Spider-Men, Venom, Cloak & Dagger, etc. which is probably why the films are focusing on this route, because it's all very centralized and self-contained and also helps the continuity to "feel" different from the previous Raimi films.

Also, my nerdy discussion aside, whether its his current Ultimate Marvel look or not doesn't change the fact that he thus far looks like absolute shit

We're all entitled to our opinions.


Last note: Why is it that the designs of any blue CG characters always gets the Smurf comparison with an inherently negative connotation that relegates their design to basically being outright dismissed based on colour alone? Prime examples that come to mind are Avatar's Na'vi & TASM2's Electro despite them being (imo) really well designed from a VFX standpoint.



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[Carlie]

Plus, Electro is the ACTUAL super-powered villain of the whole film - it doesn't work if you take him the least seriously. Plus, Ultimate Electro is one of the more terrifying villains in terms of his powers and overall capacity.

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Then the movie has already completely failed on this IMO.

I think I may be the Human Torch, 'cause GLD just made me flame on.

I earned that gold trophy in "Biggest Non-FF Geek" just now, if I'm not mistaken

I now ship TresDevil.

 

[Tennyo]

Then the movie has already completely failed on this IMO.

The other costumes that people are posting that you all claim are better wouldn't have been any more successful, though.

 

[Carlie]

the other outfits while ridiculous wouldn't had made him look like Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze, that's a massive improvement in my eyes.

 

[Geostigma]

Opinions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Opinions.

Some are better than others.


Really, though, you don't have to take a Smurf jab to ridicule how awful he looks. I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't good VFX work. That's not the question at all in my mind. It's things like Carlie mentioned. He seriously looks like a cross between Schumacher's Mr. Freeze and Snyder's Dr. Manhattan.

Neither of which are comparisons that do this design or this film any favors.

I'm absolutely not saying the classic green and yellow getup was better, nor the uglier-than-fuck blue and white one he had for a short while. I'm just saying they could have done better, and they easily could have.

For fuck's sake, both of Cole MacGrath's designs from the first two "inFAMOUS" games are cooler, and neither are "out there" in the slightest. They could easily have not made Electro look like glowing blue shit.

I can only figure they really wanted this Electro to be able to do that teleport-reform thing (which, again, is Dr. Manhattan territory I would have been steering as clear of as possible after that catastrofuck), and so he needed the design that was the more plausible fit.

 

[Ghost X]

Despite what I said earlier in the thread about Electro, which was only based on the on-set images, I now like Electro's look, and we can thank post-production for it. If there is a villain that needs to be critiqued on their appearance, I reckon that would be the Green Goblin .

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Really, though, you don't have to take a Smurf jab to ridicule how awful he looks. I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't good VFX work.

EDIT: READING COMPREHENSION FAIL, SO I DETAIL ALL THE COOL STUFF ABOUT THE VFX IN CASE ANYONE'S INTERESTED IN STILL READING THAT, IT'S BELOW.

He's got multiple translucent skin layers with their own lighting sources (blue for most of the external, and then the more orange ones internally that seem to manifest later on). You can see that at 1:44 when he's absorbing in the power from one of the underground lines.

1:49 is the mild-version where he's low-powered version, where you can see the practical effects to give him raised scarring that looks somewhat like the fractal patterning scars that people receive when struck by lightning.

1:53-2:03, you can see how there's the light-blue color scintillating behind his skin, because he's not as highly charged as he (assumedly) will be later in the film.

2:06, you see the orange hues showing up in the little plasma arcs around his hands that look... pretty much like plasma arcs.

2:40 you have him in a suit, which I assume is something that he gets via OsCorp that functions like a containment suit, because you can see the orange glow really prominently, which goes even deeper inside his body than any of the previous lighting effects has - at least in his head, which makes me think that they're using that color as his power-center and having it trace out his Central Nervous System. (and a clip from another trailer seems to verify this) At 2:41 the light blue arcs look like high-altitude electromagnetic auroras that you see in Earth's upper atmosphere, coming off of that underlying orange glow.

2:43 we're back to the early light-blue-only glow, and this is one of the VFX shots where the contrast doesn't seem quite right. They layering/compositing seems off/unfinished between him, the person in the foreground, and the background. This is the only one where I'm not liking the look, but mostly because it looks unfinished, and like it has been matched to the environment.

3:12 you get the highest level of orange glow, with almost none of the blue surface-level glow, which lets you see more of his circulatory system in detail when that glow is scintillating from deeper in his tissue.

That's not the question at all in my mind. It's things like Carlie mentioned. He seriously looks like a cross between Schumacher's Mr. Freeze and Snyder's Dr. Manhattan. Neither of which are comparisons that do this design or this film any favors.

In THAT case: It seems like your argument is coming down to, "he looks like a cross between a bald guy in a film who was made to have blue skin with practical effects and another one who was done mostly with VFX." to which I'd reply "Ummm... yes." This is 100% a combination of those two things to create a character who is also bald, and has blue skin that glows, because -- that's exactly what ultimate Electro looks like (which I still think is awesome, because opinions).



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[The Twilight Mexican]

Read my post again. =P

I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't good VFX work.

Nor would I argue that it's a bad way to present Ultimate Electro on-screen. It's the decision to try presenting Ultimate Electro on-screen with how ridiculous he looks on-screen that I'm harping on about. Well, that and the "what the fuck were they thinking" element of arousing movie goers' memories of "Watchmen."

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Read my post again. =P

Nor would I argue that it's a bad way to present Ultimate Electro on-screen. It's the decision to try presenting Ultimate Electro on-screen with how ridiculous he looks on-screen that I'm harping on about. Well, that and the "what the fuck were they thinking" element of arousing movie goers' memories of "Watxhmen."

Clearly me being, at work earlier than I normally am is affecting my reading comprehension.





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