[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[Odysseus]

I keep being really tempted to say how all this speculation is basically just repeating itself over and over and how we really won't know anything until the next part anyway so it's not worth stressing over. I know some of you enjoy this stuff so I've kept my mouth shut though lol. I just wouldn't let complicated square nonsense ruin it for you if you don't like thinking so hard about it.

Also I was totally right that all the Sephiroths are the same overall consciousness.

 

[cold_spirit]

People talk about the joy of Square's unexpected direction with Remake giving us so much to speculate on. On the other hand, they've also given us so much to speculate on. It's a blessing and a curse. Plenty of forum activity as a result.

I've been a member of TLS since January 2009, over twelve years. This will be my 945th post. 620 of those posts were made after Remake released.

To put it another way, before Remake I posted 2.41 times a month on average. After Remake's release, my average has gone up to 41.33 posts a month. That's a 17x increase in engagement.

Had Chapter 18 not been what it is, I would not be posting this regularly. I've been vocal about liking Chapter 18 in the past. To me it's more interesting than the seventeen chapters before it combined.

 

[Shademp]

And Mako's photos from Ch18 are pretty gosh darn dope

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

My humble going theory is that the Sephiroth in Cloud's mind (Chapter 2 follow sequence, Chapter 8 unconscious sequence, Chapter 13 "loss makes you stronger," etc.) are projections of the same Sephiroth we see in Chapter 18, while the clones are still just what they were in the OG. I don't think Northern Crater Sephiroth is aware of the existence of his future self yet. I know the Toriyama quote muddies this and makes it sound like they all "share the same goal" but I'm taking it with a big grain of salt for now. I'm perfectly prepared to be proven wrong. Also if anyone wants, I can take a look at the passage and type up a more idiomatic translation alongside the Japanese when my Ultimanis Plus comes in [looks at watch] ten years.

 

[ultima786]

My humble going theory is that the Sephiroth in Cloud's mind (Chapter 2 follow sequence, Chapter 8 unconscious sequence, Chapter 13 "loss makes you stronger," etc.) are projections of the same Sephiroth we see in Chapter 18, while the clones are still just what they were in the OG. I don't think Northern Crater Sephiroth is aware of the existence of his future self yet. I know the Toriyama quote muddies this and makes it sound like they all "share the same goal" but I'm taking it with a big grain of salt for now. I'm perfectly prepared to be proven wrong. Also if anyone wants, I can take a look at the passage and type up a more idiomatic translation alongside the Japanese when my Ultimanis Plus comes in [looks at watch] ten years.

Completely agree with this. All the sephiroths are manifestation of one Sephiroth. Rename simply introduces one more manifestation, different from OG.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Completely agree with this. All the sephiroths are manifestation of one Sephiroth. Rename simply introduces one more manifestation, different from OG.

Wait! As much as I like it when people agree with me this is the opposite of what I said

 

[Roundhouse]

If they all share the same consciousness and will, I'm wondering what the point is behind them distinguishing one of the Roths as a 'different' one?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because it's Sephiroth from the future, that's why.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Because it's Sephiroth from the future, that's why.

I think what Roundhouse is getting at is, even if it were a future Sephiroth (which I think it is), if future Sephiroth's consciousness and will is no different from the others', why does the Ultimania draw a distinction in how the characters react to him? It could just as well be future Sephiroth controlling one of the clones—yet we know it isn't.

 

[OWA-2]

Maybe after falling in the Lifestream, Sephiroth's consciousness was split in different parts, but all still connected to each other, and able to act together to reach a single goal, like a hivemind. And because of the nature of the Lifestream, one of these Sephiroths ended up at the Edge of Creation, gaining knowledge of the future, and becoming the 'leader' of this hivemind, the one with the plan.

Like, after falling in the Lifestream, Sephiroth's consciousness expanded, and he was able to gatter even more knowledge than he did in the OG, even from the future.

And at the Reunion, all these Sephiroths will converge into the one encased in that Mako crystal, forming a single consciousness again.

Or I'm just full of crack. I don't know.

 

[ultima786]

Wait! As much as I like it when people agree with me this is the opposite of what I said

Ok I misunderstood you. I am reading Toriyama very clearly as saying, these are "different beings" but they are controlled and manifested by "one being". At the end of the day, Sephiroth's true body is coming together and rebuilding within Mako in the northern Crater. His consciousness is within the Lifestream. There is only 1.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think what Roundhouse is getting at is, even if it were a future Sephiroth (which I think it is), if future Sephiroth's consciousness and will is no different from the others', why does the Ultimania draw a distinction in how the characters react to him? It could just as well be future Sephiroth controlling one of the clones—yet we know it isn't.

But the consciousness and will of that future Sephiroth will by its very existence be different because its from the future.

I think the reason they're not different anymore is because the knowledge, consciousness and awareness from this future Sephiroth has now been passed on to the Sephiroth in the presence. It's like he shared his notes and allowed his past self to get on the same page as him.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

But the consciousness and will of that future Sephiroth will by its very existence be different because its from the future.

I think the reason they're not different anymore is because the knowledge, consciousness and awareness from this future Sephiroth has now been passed on to the Sephiroth in the presence. It's like he shared his notes and allowed his past self to get on the same page as him.

But then the question still stands: why do Aerith and Red feel more threatened by this version of Sephiroth if the other versions they've encountered have now been retroactively supplied the same knowledge and motivations?

 

[Cae Lumis]

What I suspect Aerith was making a distinction with was that, technically speaking, Sephiroth should not at that moment have been able to make a personal physical visit with the Party. Up until that moment, Sephiroth could interact with the party through the various Mimic Illusions (either planting visions into the Party's heads or making his Copies look like him). Meanwhile... EoCroth is implied to really be him... even though his physical body should be recovering at Northern Crater. Combined with EoCroth's very... unsubtle nods to Safer-Sephiroth (his belt, the nebula at the Edge of Creation resembling his one wing, etc), along with his comments and behavior that alludes to Advent Children (his various battle quotes), it may also be that Aerith and Red sensed this incarnation of Sephiroth is also much more powerful than he should be at this point in time.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

What I suspect Aerith was making a distinction with was that, technically speaking, Sephiroth should not at that moment have been able to make a personal physical visit with the Party. Up until that moment, Sephiroth could interact with the party through the various Mimic Illusions (either planting visions into the Party's heads or making his Copies look like him). Meanwhile... EoCroth is implied to really be him... even though his physical body should be recovering at Northern Crater. Combined with EoCroth's very... unsubtle nods to Safer-Sephiroth (his belt, the nebula at the Edge of Creation resembling his one wing, etc), along with his comments and behavior that alludes to Advent Children (his various battle quotes), it may also be that Aerith and Red sensed this incarnation of Sephiroth is also much more powerful than he should be at this point in time.

Those sound like reasonable answers to me. And based on what we know of how the Lifstream works, it makes sense that future Sephiroth's will would overlap with Northern Crater Sephiroth's will. And yet I still get the feeling the latter isn't yet aware of the former. It's just a hunch I have from playing the game. To me it sets up the possibility of having two unified Aeriths versus two divided Sephiroths, which could be intriguing.

 

[Cae Lumis]

By contrast, I think Northern Crater Sephiroth has been overwritten by EoC Sephiroth, in order to fulfill the idea that all the Sephiroth's we've been seeing have ALL in the end been EoC Sephiroth. I... honestly can't believe for a moment that a Sephiroth from the future would tolerate more than one iteration of himself co-existing with his current self and would seek to be the only version operating.

 

[Roundhouse]

If FutureRoth's entire demeanour towards Cloud and his way of speaking has crucially changed, and he shares a consciousness with the CurrentRoth....why is CurrentRoth acting and talking in a different way? Wouldn't they be acting more like FutureRoth with the benefit of new knowledge and experience?

 

[OWA-2]

Let's not forget the "watashi" and "ore" pronouns. There is definitely more going on, than just a single Sephiroth manifesting in different ways.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

If FutureRoth's entire demeanour towards Cloud and his way of speaking has crucially changed, and he shares a consciousness with the CurrentRoth....why is CurrentRoth acting and talking in a different way? Wouldn't they be acting more like FutureRoth with the benefit of new knowledge and experience?

I don't think we actually get any clear cut lines from the clones though, do we? Aside from grunting and "reuuuunioon." The Chapter 17 line is during a scene where there is both an illusion only Cloud is seeing and a black robe the whole party is seeing.

 

[Cae Lumis]

That is a question I feel we need more information on to firmly say one way or the other... however, I must point out that its fairly easy to switch with personal pronoun you use since in Japan they carry more nuance such as being humble or tough or polite, etc. For example, you'd never use "Ore" in front of your boss, or someone you deem is superior to you, you'd use the more respectful "Watashi". Personally, I think (for a lack of additional references I can pull from) Sephiroth is pulling a Lelouch/ Zero here: purposefully switching which pronouns he's using at a given moment to further his manipulation of Cloud (In Japan, Lelouch uses "Ore" as his pronoun, while Zero uses the neutral and polite "Watashi").

After all, what better way to put Cloud onto his back foot... than by sounding like how he used to before he became Jenova's Favorite Son?

 

[Makoeyes987]

If FutureRoth's entire demeanour towards Cloud and his way of speaking has crucially changed, and he shares a consciousness with the CurrentRoth....why is CurrentRoth acting and talking in a different way? Wouldn't they be acting more like FutureRoth with the benefit of new knowledge and experience?

Because I don't think they're fully the same. They may share consciousness, awareness and the same goal but they are still distinct.

Dragon Ball Super spoilers from this point.

Spoiler

I think the comparison to Goku Black and Future Zamasu is a perfect comparison to the relationship between these two versions of Sephiroth. Goku Black and Future Zamasu both trust each other and are unified in their goal to fulfill their Zero Mortals Plan and work together.

However, Goku Black feels this is best accomplished utilizing the mortal body he has and has no problems relying on it as a weapon. Future Zamasu instead relishes in their immortality and purity as a god.

They have distinct differences in personality but still are the same person from different timelines and time periods. However it still doesn't change their goals and ability to work in tandem with each other.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I think the contention over whether Sephiroth's reversion to "ore" reflects a genuine shift in his personality and motivations, or whether its just another layer of manipulation in his plan to use Cloud, is going to persist a long time. It's easy to interpret one way or the other and pack neatly into the rest of whatever theory it is you find most persuasive.

So...
A. One Sephiroth who never time traveled and is simply manifesting in some new way for some reason in the Remake continuity
B. One Sephiroth who traveled back in time and subsumed the will of his OG self
C. Two Sephiroths—one from the future and the OG Sephiroth—who are aware of each other and working together
D. Two Sephiroths, one of which (the OG one) is not yet aware of the other, and may not take kindly to his presence

Thanks, SE. Clear as mud!

 

[OWA-2]

Hey guys, I'm watching a video that came out on youtube a few days ago, where 2 youtubers(babyseal and sleepezi) talk about the Material Ultimania Plus. And something very interesting came up.

Babyseal said that he hired a professional translator(not a FF7 fan), to translate the Tifa/Aerith novellas, and the Ultimania. And when he translated the "the main theme of the story is loss" part, there was a difference between Audrey's translation and his own. To him, it didn't say "different world", but "different story".

 

[Cae Lumis]

Babyseal said that he hired a professional translator(not a FF7 fan), to translate the Tifa/Aerith novellas, and the Ultimania. And when he translated the "the main theme of the story is loss" part, there was a difference between Audrey's translation and his own. To him, it didn't say "different world", but "different story".

That was exactly how I rendered that when I saw "Sekai" in that sentence! Sweet damn vindication there. Rendering the line as "A new world" would have been too literal a rendering because of the context involved with the sentence, where Toriyama is focused on themes of a story, and in a context-based language, you would render that "Sekai" as world in the figurative sense, i.e. as a story. He was comparing Remake with the Original Game, with the Original Game being about "Loss".