[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[Makoeyes987]

Hey guys, I'm watching a video that came out on youtube a few days ago, where 2 youtubers(babyseal and sleepezi) talk about the Material Ultimania Plus. And something very interesting came up.

Babyseal said that he hired a professional translator(not a FF7 fan), to translate the Tifa/Aerith novellas, and the Ultimania. And when he translated the "the main theme of the story is loss" part, there was a difference between Audrey's translation and his own. To him, it didn't say "different world", but "different story".

How does "sekai" become "story?"

Even with that as the case, that really doesn't change the meaning of the translation at all. It only reinforces the same implications, just in a meta contextual sense. Toriyama stated the theme of the Remake is loss, so if everybody survives in the future, it becomes a different story.

So it no longer becomes the Remake story? What story does it become then? I don't see how a translation missing the context that's necessary to grasp the meaning of the text somehow is more clear than a translation with experience with the subject.

Like, I seriously don't get the compulsion to dissect this quote by some people. It is not hard to decipher. And context matters, erasing it doesn't elucidate the meaning more accurately. More often than not, it muddles it.

 

[Cae Lumis]

How does "sekai" become "story?"

Even with that as the case, that really doesn't change the meaning of the translation at all. It only reinforces the same implications, just in a meta contextual sense. Toriyama stated the theme of the Remake is loss, so if everybody survives in the future, it becomes a different story.

So it no longer becomes the Remake story? What story does it become then? I don't see how a translation missing the context that's necessary to grasp the meaning of the text somehow is more clear than a translation with experience with the subject.

Like, I seriously don't get the compulsion to dissect this quote by some people. It is not hard to decipher. And context matters, erasing it doesn't elucidate the meaning more accurately. More often than not, it muddles it.

Its because Sekai is a very... general way of saying "World", and can be used depending the context it's being said to mean a figurative world, like "The World of a Story", much like how in English when we say World to mean "Story" sometimes. When he's talking about the theme of the story, he's referring to Final Fantasy VII The Original, given that he's talking about how all these characters original died in the OG, and if the theme of the OG was about loss... if they were to survive then Remake's story would be different from the OG's story with its own theme.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Story is implied by the context. You're repeatedly making the mistake of assuming Japanese to English is a 1:1 practice despite what people are posting in this thread.

Edit: Seal explained that a friend offered to do it for a discounted price, and also, he isn't having the entire Ulti Plus translated, just parts of it + the Aerith and Tifa novel.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

If they had the novella professionally translated, they should share that with the rest of the fans!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Its because Sekai is a very... general way of saying "World", and can be used depending the context it's being said to mean a figurative world, like "The World of a Story", much like how in English when we say World to mean "Story" sometimes. When he's talking about the theme of the story, he's referring to Final Fantasy VII The Original, given that he's talking about how all these characters original died in the OG, and if the theme of the OG was about loss... if they were to survive then Remake's story would be different from the OG's story with its own theme.

No he literally is not. Toriyama is talking about the Remake because he's answering a question about the Remake's ending regarding Jessie. Read what the question is he is answering and the previous sentences before his statement of the theme. Nowhere is the original even talked about. Are you now debating the section and contents of what the actual question and answer is?

Story is implied by the context. You're repeatedly making the mistake of assuming Japanese to English is a 1:1 practice despite what people are posting in this thread.

It's not that I'm assuming there's a 1:1, it's the fact that the sentence in the context with "sekai" as "story" means pretty much nothing. The meaning of Toriyama's answer doesn't change. He's not talking about the original game.

If his answer is to state that if a story's themes are betrayed by doing their opposite, it becomes a different story... Well, that's pretty obvious. But it goes off the topic of the question and answer he was previously giving.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh come on. It even works in English and not just Japanese!

It's like saying "the World of Star Wars" or "the World of Lord of the Rings" or "the World of Harry Potter". The *story* told in that media is intrinsic to how the world itself works and unfolds. Changing the story of "Star Wars" or "Lord of the Rings" or "Harry Potter" would change the "world" of the story. We all know what is meant by this "world of a story" usage.

So if story events of FFVII are changing... then yes, that the means the world is too. Or vice versa. One "version" of FFVII's world/story is about loss... the OG is. It has *always* been associated with loss (and by life and death) by the devs. Them changing the story to be about something else would mean that the "world/story" of FFVII might not be about loss this time aorund.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm just going to post the tweet/translation since what came before it is just being completely ignored now.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415573942266339331

So did Audrey make that whole translation up? Was that not a question about the Remake ending scenes featuring Jessie's implied possible survival along with with Bigg's confirmed survival?

Why and/or where is the OG even being talked about? Because the direct sentence before this contested translation is about Jessie potentially surviving, and that definitely didn't happen in the OG. Toriyama's next sentence bounces from that point and explains it's thematic ramifications. Even accepting that sekai means story, nothing about that is regarding the OG because he's speaking about the Remake ending's ramifications entirely.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

She did not make the whole translation up. But "An important theme of this story is "Loss"" is not *all* of the translated text either. It's one statement at the end of an entire paragraph that *means* something.

Particularly... "On the other hand, Jessie is not shoown in the ending because we couldn't save here... or that's what you might think." and "If Biggs' life cand be saved by some miracle, then that means other members could be saved too." We now know that Biggs not dying is a "miracle". And Biggs dying was something the Whispers were *trying* to make happen, but it was reversed. So it follows that anything else the Whispers were trying to make happen (like in the OG) but got changed is also a "miracle".

This suggests that the idea of saving people and *succeeding* at doing so (a miracle) is an important theme of Remake's story. That is what happened in *Remake*. Not the OG. We see several instances of "miracles" at the end of Remake. Not just with Biggs or Jessie. But with Zack and Marlene and the people of Sector 7 It's also worth pointing out that Cloud and Co. were trying to create "miracles" happen for all of Remake (whenever they go against the OG's story-line). And they only succeeded in making them "miracles" stick after killing Harbringer. Which is presented as a *good* thing by the story. The emotional high-point of killing the final boss is the "miracle" of Zack's survival. So Remake's own story/world has miracles in it that everyone was *trying* to make happen (and succeeded in making happen).

Whatever world/story that is being talked about in the end of the paragraphs has "loss" rather than "miracles". And we know the OG's story has been said to be about "loss" by the devs for a very, very long time. And it's also said that the world/story of "loss" is a different story/world than the one of "miracles".

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Audrey's translation is not in question, I'm going to simply now look at the text.

The entire section is regarding the Remake.

Toriyama is answering a question about the Remake's ending. Everything he references is regarding the scenes that are depicted exclusively in the Remake. There is no statement whatsoever referencing the original FFVII. If that is wrong and Toriyama begins discussing or contrasting the Remake to OG, please let me know.

The exact previous sentence of the contested translation is about Jessie's potential survival. Why in reference to that Remake exclusive event, would Toriyama turn around and talk about the OG when his question and answers were entirely focused on the Remake's events and possibilities?

There are no potential possibilities of saving AVALANCHE in the OG. They unequivocally died, so why would he need to state the theme is "loss" and speak to a possibility of saving them in a game they can't be saved?

Why is the OG even being brought up in this section discussing Jessie's possible survival and it's meaning in the Remake?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record... I think there can still be ambiguity even if you assume Toriyama is talking about the greater story of the FFVII franchise. (I actually think he is, even if he doesn't explicitly say so.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe @Cae Lumis 's interpretation of the quote amounts to: "A major theme of [the overarching story of FFVII] is 'loss'; therefore, if all of these characters were to survive in the future, then the world [in which the story of FFVII is set] would end up being different [from the one we're familiar with]."

But I think a lot of fans, including translators like Audrey, are interpreting it as: "A major theme of [the overarching story of FFVII] is 'loss'; therefore, if all of these characters were to survive in the future, then that future might be a different world [—one separate from the world where those losses still actually happened and were felt by the characters and audience]."

Either way, I think Toriyama is pledging to preserve this theme of loss. Even if there are unexpected miracles in one timeline, they will be balanced out somewhere in some way by loss.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe @Cae Lumis 's interpretation of the quote amounts to: "A major theme of [the overarching story of FFVII] is 'loss'; therefore, if all of these characters were to survive in the future, then the world [in which the story of FFVII is set] would be a different place."

If that's the case then, where did the subject hop? Because everything he was asked, referenced and answered was about the events of the Remake ending showcasing Jessie's implied survival and Biggs's actual survival. Those are at odds with anything shown in the OG. How did that become a question too? There was no discussion of the "overarching story of FFVII." Toriyama was asked about the Remake's ending and Jessie surviving.

Why would Toriyama be speaking of an unknown possibility in the story where they simply died before our eyes? There is no possibility to save them except in the Remake, so where is this statement of Toriyama's stating he was now talking about the OG when all of the sentences he stated were about the Remake, answering the question about the Remake ending?

When did this subject drift happen?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

If that's the case then, where did the subject hop? Because everything he was asked, referenced and answered was about the events of the Remake ending showcasing Jessie's implied survival and Biggs's actual survival. Those are at odds with anything shown in the OG.

Why would he be speaking of an ambiguous possibility in the story where they died before our eyes? There is no possibility to save them except in the Remake, so where is this statement if Toriyama's stating he was now talking about the OF when all of the sentences he stated were about the Remake, answering the question about the Remake ending?

When did this subject drift happen?

I said something similar to this a page or two ago so sorry if it's mostly a repeat. But I think when Toriyama received the question he sort of had a gut reaction to assure fans that loss is still an important part of the FFVII franchise, and that the writers aren't just saving characters because they feel like it. He confirms that Biggs is alive, and even offers hope that Jessie has survived, too, but then he catches himself and makes clear that even so, mature themes of death, pain, grief, etc. aren't just being abandoned at the drop of a pen: even though these characters may have survived in another world, they were still lost in "our" world. Furthermore, their survival in another world may lead to more unexpected loss. That's my ultimate take on the answer, but of course its heavily colored by my own theories about where the story is going and what the writers are planning.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I said something similar to this a page or two ago so sorry if it's mostly a repeat. But I think when Toriyama received the question he sort of had a gut reaction to assure fans that loss is still an important part of the FFVII franchise, and that the writers aren't just saving characters because they feel like it. He confirms that Biggs is alive, and even offers hope that Jessie has survived, too, but then he catches himself and makes clear that even so, mature themes of death, pain, grief, etc. aren't just being abandoned at the drop of a pen.

I mean, that makes sense and is probably true to a wide degree. But the topic of the text, section and discussion was the Remake, right? It has to be because, it's a direct question regards the ending's meaning. I just don't understand how we got a whole translation regarding the Remake ending to suddenly now being about OG FFVII and it's theme, with no lead up to show a topic change, comparison, etc.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I mean, that makes sense and is probably true to a wide degree. But the topic of the text, section and discussion was the Remake, right? It has to be because, it's a direct question regards the ending's meaning. I just don't understand how we got a whole translation regarding the Remake ending to suddenly now being about OG FFVII and it's theme, with no lead up to show a topic change, comparison, etc.

I don't think he's specifically talking about the OG story; I think he's talking about the overarching story of the series, including the OG, the compilation, and Remake. My impression is that he wants to assure readers this theme of "loss" that undergirds all of the series entries will be honored, no matter how sunny things may appear based on Zack, Biggs, and (maybe) Jessie surviving.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think he's specifically talking about the OG story; I think he's talking about the overarching story of the series, including the OG, the compilation, and Remake. My impression is that he wants to assure readers this theme of "loss" that undergirds all of the series entries will be honored, no matter how sunny things may appear based on Zack, Biggs, and (maybe) Jessie surviving.

...Even if he's answering a question about the Remake ending, and the last sentence was towards a Remake exclusive event?

I know Japanese doesn't have a grammatical subject like English, however topic and context still exist and are important. For Toriyama to suddenly opine about a completely different game outside of the topic he was just answering a question towards, it would warrant a clarification of some sort since communicating that topic would be loss given his previous sentences contextually referencing the Remake in their entirety.

So how are we (or anyone) to know Toriyama suddenly changed subjects, when nothing in the text or dialogue communicates that fact?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

...Even if he's answering a question about the Remake ending, and the last sentence was towards a Remake exclusive event?

I know Japanese doesn't have a grammatical subject like English, however topic and context still exist and are important. For Toriyama to suddenly opine about a completely different game outside of the topic he was just answering a question towards, would warrant a clarification of some sort since communicating that topic would be loss given his previous sentences contextually referencing the Remake in their entirety.

So how are we to know, he suddenly changed subjects when nothing in the text or dialogue communicates that fact?

Again, I don't think he's suddenly talking about a different game. I think he's talking about Remake in the context of the greater FFVII series. The text is what it is—I'm not trying to say there's some hidden message in the Japanese that isn't translating into English. I'm just giving my guess at what was going through his head, and the sense of obligation he may have been feeling to long-time fans of the franchise.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Isn't what he's saying something along the lines of "If Napoleon had succeeded in invading Russia, the world would be a different place"?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Again, I don't think he's suddenly talking about a different game. I think he's talking about Remake in the context of the greater FFVII series. The text is what it is—I'm not trying to say there's some hidden message in the Japanese that isn't translating into English. I'm just giving my guess at what was going through his head, and the sense of obligation he may have been feeling to long-time fans of the franchise.

Well that's my point

The text, topic, and context of his statement isn't ambiguous. He's stating the theme of the Remake is loss, which we know as readers, does align with what the OG's theme was as well. It could easily be taken as him giving readers a "reassurance." But he wasn't just throwing that out there, and only speaking exclusively of the OG's theme. The topic was the Remake.

Isn't what he's saying something along the lines of "If Napoleon had succeeded in invading Russia, the world would be a different place"?

Yes, that is a valid interpretation and reading of the statement! The world would be different if Y instead of X happened.

The question is, what does it mean when you see Y happen before your eyes while it simultaneously doesn't as well.

You see the game here?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Isn't what he's saying something along the lines of "If Napoleon had succeeded in invading Russia, the world would be a different place"?

I think that's one possible interpretation (and it seems like half the translations in this thread have made it), but based on how you assess the context, and of course based on your own personal theories about where the story is going with alternate universes and time travel and stuff like that, another reasonable one could be: "There might be another world where France succeeded in invading Russia." Uhhh man I'm almost losing the thread here. Too many degrees of abstraction. Sephiroth invading Russia.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

On rare occasions I agree pretty much completely with Mako. This is one of them.

Dude is being asked a question about Remake's ending and provides an answer referencing events in Remake's ending, so when he says "this story" there's no reason to think he isn't talking about FFVIIR.

 

[Makoeyes987]

On rare occasions I agree pretty much completely with Mako.

Why do you hurt me so?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why do you hurt me so?

Take what you can get, homie. Want I should take it back? =P

 

[OWA-2]

This is just rehashing the convo we had about the ambiguity in that sentence a couple pages ago. It can be interpreted as either Toriyama saying the characters could be living in a different world, or, if the characters survive, then the world in which the story is set would be very different indeed. I'd suggest going back and taking a look at those posts for more context. But my takeaway as someone who believes the multiple timeline theory is that Toriyama intended the former. There is real ambiguity in this sentence. It isn't like a cultural barrier; it's purely semantic.

Also yes lmao if they had the novella professionally translated, they should share that with the rest of the fans!

I'm sorry. It looks like I re-opened a can of worms. ☹

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I'm sorry. It looks like I re-opened a can of worms. ☹

If we weren't all extremely into opening cans of worms, we wouldn't be here!

 

[Eerie]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1419299047873998851

This scene recontextualised with ToTP hurts SO BAD. Oh, Marlene baby