The Abesence Of Gast's Presence In the Compilation

[jazzflower92]

But I never said he had a normal upbringing. There is a lot of gray area between a picket white fence and playing catch with Dad and spending your entire childhood in a glass tube.

Here is my take on things he wasn't raised in a glass tube but he was under Shinra's care with Hojo being the primary caregiver.He was raised in a lab facility that was apart of Shinra and was constantly tested on by Hojo.I also think he had his own room in this facility.

Also what do you think of Gast do you think that they should release something that tells more about him personally and expands his character.Mainly because I would find it interesting if they showed how he came to find Jenova and his work on the Jenova Project.I also would find it interesting to explore his rilvary with Hojo.I also wonder if he was friends with Lucrecia as well.

Also I think he was coerced into doing human experimentation when Shinra suggested it.He began compromising his morals until he finally found out Jenova's true nature and wanted nothing further to do with it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here is my take on things he wasn't raised in a glass tube but he was under Shinra's care with Hojo being the primary caregiver.He was taised in a lab facility that was apart of Shinra and was constantly tested on by Hojo.I also think he had his own room in this facility.

Fair enough that it's your take. Just don't assume that it's the only thing that makes sense, or that it's the only possibility implied by the material.

That's what you seem to be saying. If that isn't what you mean, you need to clarify.

 

[jazzflower92]

Fair enough that it's your take. Just don't assume that it's the only thing that makes sense, or that it's the only possibility implied by the material.

That's what you seem to be saying. If that isn't what you mean, you need to clarify.

I agree with that and thanks.

But I also want to talk about Gast and how I think him and Lucrecia are not so different from each other.Mainly I think like Lucrecia he was good at heart but he gave up some of his morals in the pursuit of science.

I also think that Gast probably had a strong dislike for Hojo because Hojo just seemed to be eager to cross unethical lines without any remorse.I think even Gast and Hojo would have arguments at times working on the project.

I also am curious what is Gast's relationship with Hollander as well.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I generally agree with your sentiments about Gast and Lucrecia being similar, though I do personally have a difficult time considering someone good at heart when they knowingly experiment on children.

That said, it is possible that either or both of them believed they were actually benefitting Sephiroth at the time. That's still horribly, dangerously, mind-bogglingly ignorant, but it is different from willful malice or disregard. Perhaps better, perhaps not. Different, though, sure.

As for Gast and his relationship with his subordinates, there's just not enough information available to even guess, so I won't.

 

[jazzflower92]

I generally agree with your sentiments about Gast and Lucrecia being similar, though I do personally have a difficult time considering someone good at heart when they knowingly experiment on children.

That said, it is possible that either or both of them believed they were actually benefitting Sephiroth at the time. That's still horribly, dangerously, mind-bogglingly ignorant, but it is different from willful malice or disregard. Perhaps better, perhaps not. Different, though, sure.

As for Gast and his relationship with his subordinates, there's just not enough information available to even guess, so I won't.

I think they were foolishly and danerously ignorant about the consequences their experimentation would have on him.I don't how much involvement Gast got after Sephiroth was born but I have a feeling he would have had a bad feeling if Hojo was left in charge.

I know Gast was highly regarded in CC by some scientist who remember him while Hojo was reviled which implies that there is some respect deserved for the man.Although I think being better than Hojo is actually an easier task.But I think Hojo was chosen to lead the project after Gast showed signs of not willingly to through with crossing any more moral lines.I think when Gast crossed the moral line with the Sephiroth and learned about Jenova I think he really started showing a great deal of shame in himself.I also think he would have felt that he tainted a child with his foolishness as well because he let his scientific curiosity overtake his morals.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Retconning can be annoying, especially when it isn't a well-know retcon!

From the sound of it, neither Gast nor Lucrecia really thought about what they were doing. For both of them, it was what they wanted to do or were paid to do. This suggests that there was something out of whack with their humanity even before the project began. At this point, I don't see much of a difference between them and Hojo and Hollander.

However, something changes in them after a while, and both of them figure out what they're doing wasn't right. Lucrecia's is the clearest as she tells us what happened both in the OG and DoC; she realized Sephiroth was a person and not just some science experiment to play god with. Gast is a lot harder as we aren't really told why he left. What is clear is that he left after discovering Jenova wasn't a Cetra. What isn't clear is whether he left because he saw the experiments involving her as wrong or whether left because it was an inconvenience to him. I get the felling that if Lucrecia could do it over, she wouldn't be part of the experiment no matter what Jenova is, while Gast did it over, he might not leave Shin-Ra if it turned out Jenova was a Cetra like he predicted.

Hojo and Hollander would do the same thing all over again, after making sure they corrected their mistakes.

 

[jazzflower92]

Retconning can be annoying, especially when it isn't a well-know retcon!

From the sound of it, neither Gast nor Lucrecia really thought about what they were doing. For both of them, it was what they wanted to do or were paid to do. This suggests that there was something out of whack with their humanity even before the project began. At this point, I don't see much of a difference between them and Hojo and Hollander.

However, something changes in them after a while, and both of them figure out what they're doing wasn't right. Lucrecia's is the clearest as she tells us what happened both in the OG and DoC; she realized Sephiroth was a person and not just some science experiment to play god with. Gast is a lot harder as we aren't really told why he left. What is clear is that he left after discovering Jenova wasn't a Cetra. What isn't clear is whether he left because he saw the experiments involving her as wrong or whether left because it was an inconvenience to him. I get the felling that if Lucrecia could do it over, she wouldn't be part of the experiment no matter what Jenova is, while Gast did it over, he might not leave Shin-Ra if it turned out Jenova was a Cetra like he predicted.

Hojo and Hollander would do the same thing all over again, after making sure they corrected their mistakes.

Yeah,and also the fact is that Jenova also was a parastic alien that once wiped out the Cetra race also might factor into it as well.I think at that point when he found out it was too late and he probably thought the only thing to do was remove himself from the project.

And its times like these that I think they should write more material about Gast so we could know more of why he left and how moral he really was.I am also thinking it would be fun to elaborate on how he met Ifana and eventually married her.

The Jenova project reminds me a little about that line in the movie Jurassic Park.Just because they can doesn't mean they should.I think they jumped into this without really researching what Jenova was and it bit them in the butt in the form of a maniac that almost destroyed the world.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Concerning Sephiroth's childhood, I think that he didn't spend his childhood in a lab, going instead went to a Shinra-owned school.

He probably was monitorized all the time and it's not farfetched to say that even his teachers would have to report daily to Shinra about what kind of activities he was involved during the day.

After school, he probably would spend a few hours in Shinra's Sience Department were they would run a few tests in him. Maybe it was during this time that Sephiroth became so found of Professor Gast. Maybe he was kind to him, and the two would talk about a lot of things during the time Sephiroth would spend in the Science Department with Gast.

Probably after that, he would spend some time being trained to become a soldier and after that, they would let Sephiroth roam around the Shinra Building, giving him a false sense of freedom.

 

[jazzflower92]

Concerning Sephiroth's childhood, I think that he didn't spend his childhood in a lab, going instead went to a Shinra-owned school.

He probably was monitorized all the time and it's not farfetched to say that even his teachers would have to report daily to Shinra about what kind of activities he was involved during the day.

After school, he probably would spend a few hours in Shinra's Sience Department were they would run a few tests in him. Maybe it was during this time that Sephiroth became so found of Professor Gast. Maybe he was kind to him, and the two would talk about a lot of things during the time Sephiroth would spend in the Science Department with Gast.

Probably after that, he would spend some time being trained to become a soldier and after that, they would let Sephiroth roam around the Shinra Building, giving him a false sense of freedom.

I read that Gast left the project when Sephiroth was really young.I think the reason he was probably a big influence on Sephiroth is because I think he was one of the few adults to actually treat him like a child instead of an experiment.

I mean if Gast was around when Sephiroth was in Shinra's care I was thinking that maybe he would have tried to see if Sephiroth was able to display some powers that Cetra had.I think he would have been discouraged when he did not display any Cetra abilties.I think it probably he eventually met Ifana because Sephiroth wasn't displaying them and then he found out the truth.

I think he then felt he couldn't really look at Sephiroth the same way again because he now realized that they put the cells of a parastic alien into a child.I think it was the reason he left out of guilt.Thats just my theory.

 

[S and G]

Apologies if some of these points have been raised already as I have only skim-read this thread but there are a couple of things I'd like to mention:

- Despite being considered a major part of Project Jenova through role as head of department, Gast may not have been involved in the intricacies of it. It may have been that there was more going on at the time. The aftermath of Project Jenova G, the early beginnings of Deepground, etc. If this was the case, he may not have spent a huge amount of time at the Nibelheim facility. Hence, he would not have appeared in the Dirge cutscenes as he was not present. To fail to mention him altogether on the other hand...

- To complain about Grimoire Valentine appearing in the game when Gast did not is absurd. The game has very little to do with Project Jenova except that it was through this that Lucrecia and Vincent met. Lucrecia holding Vincent at arm's length because of her guilt over Grimoire's death is the core of their relationship. Of course he's thus going to appear in the backstory.

- When viewing Sephiroth's dialogue during the Nibelheim incident, he mentions that he knows his mother's name is Jenova. Later, when moaning about how little answers he can find about Jenova, he references Gast's death. This would suggest that the one who told him his mother's name was Gast. To a child, particularly in Sephiroth's unique and 'special' upbringing, this would mean a great deal. I would bet that this explains Sephiroth's feelings for the man.

- As for Shinra not knowing the ins and outs of Gast's fate, etc, there were many secrets and files that Hojo kept to himself. This is shown regarding the WEAPON info that Rufus never had access to.

 

[jazzflower92]

Apologies if some of these points have been raised already as I have only skim-read this thread but there are a couple of things I'd like to mention:

- Despite being considered a major part of Project Jenova through role as head of department, Gast may not have been involved in the intricacies of it. It may have been that there was more going on at the time. The aftermath of Project Jenova G, the early beginnings of Deepground, etc. If this was the case, he may not have spent a huge amount of time at the Nibelheim facility. Hence, he would not have appeared in the Dirge cutscenes as he was not present. To fail to mention him altogether on the other hand...

- To complain about Grimoire Valentine appearing in the game when Gast did not is absurd. The game has very little to do with Project Jenova except that it was through this that Lucrecia and Vincent met. Lucrecia holding Vincent at arm's length because of her guilt over Grimoire's death is the core of their relationship. Of course he's thus going to appear in the backstory.

- When viewing Sephiroth's dialogue during the Nibelheim incident, he mentions that he knows his mother's name is Jenova. Later, when moaning about how little answers he can find about Jenova, he references Gast's death. This would suggest that the one who told him his mother's name was Gast. To a child, particularly in Sephiroth's unique and 'special' upbringing, this would mean a great deal. I would bet that this explains Sephiroth's feelings for the man.

- As for Shinra not knowing the ins and outs of Gast's fate, etc, there were many secrets and files that Hojo kept to himself. This is shown regarding the WEAPON info that Rufus never had access to.

Now that I think about it does make sense if you think about it.It just begs the question involved did he get until he left and everything seems to be in the hands of the Hojo.

I also have a feeling that they let Hojo in charge because he is willing to cross the line in the name of science.It seems in Shinra's nature to elect people who seem to have no moral compass.

 

[S and G]

I also have a feeling that they let Hojo in charge because he is willing to cross the line in the name of science.It seems in Shinra's nature to elect people who seem to have no moral compass.

The Crisis Core Ultimania states that Hojo succeeded Gast because in the race to prove who was the best scientist, he beat Hollander because his outcome for Project Jenova was a success.

 

[jazzflower92]

The Crisis Core Ultimania states that Hojo succeeded Gast because in the race to prove who was the best scientist, he beat Hollander because his outcome for Project Jenova was a success.

I do remember that part saying that Hojo's work on Jenova Speciman S was a success but I think also but its just speculation that they liked Hojo because he like so many other executives had a low moral compass.

In the orginal game every executive except Reeve was a corrupt evil being.With Hojo being the worst of them all.I just got that vibe but maybe I am reading too much into things.

 

[S and G]

I do remember that part saying that Hojo's work on Jenova Speciman S was a success but I think also but its just speculation that they liked Hojo because he like so many other executives had a low moral compass.

In the orginal game every executive except Reeve was a corrupt evil being.With Hojo being the worst of them all.I just got that vibe but maybe I am reading too much into things.

I agree with what you are saying, but the answer I already gave is not an opinion, it is actually the explanation that Square-Enix have provided.

 

[jazzflower92]

I agree with what you are saying, but the answer I already gave is not an opinion, it is actually the explanation that Square-Enix have provided.

I do know that is the explanation that Square gave about why Shinra chose Hojo and I accept it.I am just saying that him being willing to cross moral boundaries was just a bonus for them.

I also wonder about if Gast ever tried to talk President Shinra out of doing the Jenova Project and his complaints were futile because President Shinra didn't care.

I also wonder did President Shinra find out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra and if he did he is just as morally bankcrupt as Hojo.Mainly because he had the knowledge of what Jenova was and continued on the project.

 

[S and G]

I also wonder about if Gast ever tried to talk President Shinra out of doing the Jenova Project and his complaints were futile because President Shinra didn't care.

I also wonder did President Shinra find out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra and if he did he is just as morally bankcrupt as Hojo.Mainly because he had the knowledge of what Jenova was and continued on the project.

It is extremely unlikely that President Shinra was not aware that Jenova was not an Ancient. There would be no reason to hide it from him. Project Jenova took place to produce people with the power of the Ancients and ease the Mako extraction process. Hojo learned that Jenova was not an Ancient at the same time he captured Ifalna, thus there would be no reason to continue the 'producing Ancients' facade with Jenova. President Shinra is portrayed as a very clued-up guy throughout the compilation and shows an extraordinary level of support for Hojo. In return, I expect he was briefed on all aspects of the matter.

 

[jazzflower92]

It is extremely unlikely that President Shinra was not aware that Jenova was not an Ancient. There would be no reason to hide it from him. Project Jenova took place to produce people with the power of the Ancients and ease the Mako extraction process. Hojo learned that Jenova was not an Ancient at the same time he captured Ifalna, thus there would be no reason to continue the 'producing Ancients' facade with Jenova. President Shinra is portrayed as a very clued-up guy throughout the compilation and shows an extraordinary level of support for Hojo. In return, I expect he was briefed on all aspects of the matter.

That settles it and I was right all long President Shinra is as morally bankrupt as Hojo.

The bigger question also comes to mind why do they still keep Jenova if know that she was not a Cetra.Was President Shinra planning something with Jenova or he forgot about her and just let Hojo do whatever he wanted with her.President Shinra seems to be more focused on finding the Promised Land and probably lost interest in Jenova so I believe it would have been the latter.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Just because its obviously not a Cetra doesn't make the freaky alien monster thing useless. Gotta experiment with that thing, see what we can make it do. Especially considering it was still alive after being buried for a couple thousand years. Oh and hey, SOLDIER came of it, so looks like they were right

 

[jazzflower92]

Just because its obviously not a Cetra doesn't make the freaky alien monster thing useless. Gotta experiment with that thing, see what we can make it do. Especially considering it was still alive after being buried for a couple thousand years. Oh and hey, SOLDIER came of it, so looks like they were right

And their top SOLDIER went psycho and almost destroyed the world.Clearly they didn't think this through.Then again this is Shinra they are the poster picture of not caring what their actions will do to others or the world.What was President Shinra planning to do?The thing is a planet hopping monster that destroys the population on each planet it visits.What were they thinking of doing and why do I have a feeling it would have been very evil in nature?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And their top SOLDIER went psycho and almost destroyed the world.Clearly they didn't think this through.Then again this is Shinra they are the poster picture of not caring what their actions will do to others or the world.What was President Shinra planning to do?The thing is a planet hopping monster that destroys the population on each planet it visits.What were they thinking of doing and why do I have a feeling it would have been very evil in nature?

To be absolutely fair, Sephiroth was an exceptional fluke. Up until then their SOLDIER program won them a world war against a superpower and secured their spot as the defacto rulers of the planet.

While they shot themselves in the foot plenty of times with variations of the SOLDIER program (Deepground, Sephiroth, Genesis, etc), most of their backfires came from other individuals free will, and not a direct result of the SOLDIER program. If not for SOLDIER, we wouldn't have Cloud or Zack.

 

[jazzflower92]

To be absolutely fair, Sephiroth was an exceptional fluke. Up until then their SOLDIER program won them a world war against a superpower and secured their spot as the defacto rulers of the planet.

While they shot themselves in the foot plenty of times with variations of the SOLDIER program (Deepground, Sephiroth, Genesis, etc), most of their backfires came from other individuals free will, and not a direct result of the SOLDIER program. If not for SOLDIER, we wouldn't have Cloud or Zack.

I still wonder if they were planning to use Jenova for other means not explored in the original game.I have a feeling that President Shinra has done even worse things that have not yet come to light.Seeing how Deepground was run President Shinra is running close to Hojo for being a evil sack of human vileness.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Especially once they found out how useful Jenova could be in a super soldier program, I'm sure they thoroughly explored what else they might be able to do with it. Whether its the most horrible thing evar (seriously how do you top Deep Ground?) or not (much more likely imo) remains to probably never be seen.

 

[jazzflower92]

Especially once they found out how useful Jenova could be in a super soldier program, I'm sure they thoroughly explored what else they might be able to do with it. Whether its the most horrible thing evar (seriously how do you top Deep Ground?) or not (much more likely imo) remains to probably never be seen.

I don't know I just have a feeling that Shinra has more secrets hiding and Hojo would defiantly would have had a hand in it as well.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Concerning Sephiroth's childhood, I think that he didn't spend his childhood in a lab, going instead went to a Shinra-owned school.

He probably was monitorized all the time and it's not farfetched to say that even his teachers would have to report daily to Shinra about what kind of activities he was involved during the day.

After school, he probably would spend a few hours in Shinra's Sience Department were they would run a few tests in him. Maybe it was during this time that Sephiroth became so found of Professor Gast. Maybe he was kind to him, and the two would talk about a lot of things during the time Sephiroth would spend in the Science Department with Gast.

Probably after that, he would spend some time being trained to become a soldier and after that, they would let Sephiroth roam around the Shinra Building, giving him a false sense of freedom.

It seems highly unlikely that Sephiroth ever met Gast. Here's what we know for sure:

-According to the Crisis Core Complete Guide, Gast left Shin-Ra in 1980, 27 years before FFVII
-From various official timelines, we know that Sephiroth was born "25-30 years before FFVII"
-Hollander initially had Gast's position as head of the science department, but it was given to Hojo once Sephiroth was determined to be superior to Genesis and Angeal; both of the latter (the only two surviving babies from their experiment) were determined to be failures shortly after birth, with the methodology from Jenova Project G being refined into the procedure used for Project S

From this, we can rather reasonably conclude that Gast left Shin-Ra before Sephiroth's birth. We can also conclude that, at oldest, Sephiroth is 27 during the events of FFVII, but may be even younger than that.

 

[jazzflower92]

But didn't Vincent say he was sleeping in the coffin for 30 years.Then again Square has made contradictions in the Compilation with the orginal game.And if Gast left the company 27 years then maybe Gast might have seen Sephiroth when he was a toddler.Sephiroth might have had some fuzzy memories of Gast of what little reaction he had with him.I think he only vaguely remembers him but he left an impact.

If I remember if Vincent slept for 30 years and I remmeber Lucrecia was pregnant at the same time Vincent was experimented on.Then Sephiroth was born after Vincent shut himself away.

Gast left 27 years ago which would have made Sephiroth three years old at the time.

In Vincent's wiki page at Final Fantasy wiki it said he was sleeping for thirty years.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Vincent_Valentine