The Abesence Of Gast's Presence In the Compilation

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I am to only half agree to some of the things you said but I think they only spoiled Sephiroth once he was adult and gave them results like victory in the Wutai war.Here is my little theory I think they kept him cooped up from day one in the labs and was monitored, experitmented, and trained since he was young to be a Soildier.He might have had interaction with other children but it was often times rare and it often times was shown that Sephiroth was very different from them all.With Hojo monitoring everything I do think that Sephiroth's childhood wasn't a happy one.I think from the fact that Lucrecia wasn't allowed to hold Sephiroth probably indicates that it would give a clue into how he was raised.

Cooped up no, In the labs no, monitored Yes. Sephiroth was an experimental subject, but in the same was as a family of a sociology study is. You observe and record, but ultimately stay largely hands off.

I think that Sephiroth was only spoiled once he gave them results because of the Wutai War.

IIRC, there is mention that he showed very early signs of promise and ShinRa spent a decent amount of money indulging his whims, such as martial arts and swordfighting training.

It would actually work like this their trained soldier deprived of a happy and normal childhood eventually somewhat gets over his drama being in a isolated and unloving setting with shallow celebrityism and close friends that he has nearby.

Except Sephiroth's issue in CC is that he's got all the people and admirers he could ever want... but he still feels alone, because his equals have deserted him.

Remember in Dirge of Cerebrus they did mention he was sent to Shinra which indicates he was sent there to be trained from the beginning to be a super solider.

No, it indicates he was sent to be studied as one of the Project J subjects.


I think it was a mix of observation and some things like Mako injections.

What are these Mako injections and what horrific fanfic hell did you drag them out of? The only Mako procedures known are Mako Showers and the Hardcore Mako Infusions done in Nibelheim that Sephiroth was explicitly unaware of before finding them in the reactor.


I do think that maybe during his childhood he was given Mako injections but like you said every Soildier gets them and he came to see them as normal routine for him.I mean it can be possible that he was raised from the getto in Shinra's lab with Hojo hovering over his upbringing.Like I said in Dirge of Cerebrus they mention Sephiroth being shipped off to Shinra which indicates that he was raised in the labs.Also remember he was raised from day one to be a soldier and probably was treated more like a mini adult than a child.

He was not raised from Day 1 to be a soldier. He was raised to hopefully be a mako dousing rod.

If he did then why did he not kill the guy I mean that is what bugs me or SE didn't really think it through when they were writing this.But the fact he never goes after Hojo really seems to me to be a byproduct of the fact that Hojo orginally wasn't that improtant in the story.I remember reading that orginally Hojo would be killed earlier and would not have been that much important except instead of cloning Sephiroth he cloned Red XII.

Hojo would have cloned a LOT of shit in the early versions.

I also want to mention the fact he has been told all his life that Jenova was his mother.If he was being told all his life that Jenova was his mother.It does send a signal that he was raised under Shinra's care which means he could have been in the labs.

Could have is not the same as was.

I can say his life has been a controlled enviorment from the day he was born.I think he would have been from the time he could be taught to fight he was trained to have the mind of a warrior.

Controlled, yes. Labs, no. Trained to be a warrior from birth, no.

It seems highly unlikely that Sephiroth ever met Gast. Here's what we know for sure:

-According to the Crisis Core Complete Guide, Gast left Shin-Ra in 1980, 27 years before FFVII
-From various official timelines, we know that Sephiroth was born "25-30 years before FFVII"
-Hollander initially had Gast's position as head of the science department, but it was given to Hojo once Sephiroth was determined to be superior to Genesis and Angeal; both of the latter (the only two surviving babies from their experiment) were determined to be failures shortly after birth, with the methodology from Jenova Project G being refined into the procedure used for Project S

From this, we can rather reasonably conclude that Gast left Shin-Ra before Sephiroth's birth. We can also conclude that, at oldest, Sephiroth is 27 during the events of FFVII, but may be even younger than that.

Actually, we can't say he's 27 at the oldest. Around 27 and absolutely certainly no older than 30 at the far outside, but 'shortly after birth' gives a short amount of wiggle room.
I agree Sephypoo probably only knew Gast through reputation, possibly- and ironically- from what Hojo said about him and what of Gast's research he was allowed access to.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Another question that comes to mind is did Gast feel kinda of conflicted about human experimentating.I also wondered if Gast ever questioned Shinra about their more amoral actions and decisions.

I also wonder when did Gast first meet Ifana and how far along the process did people in Shinra notice that Sephiroth wasn't displaying any Cetra abilties.As a matter of fact doesn't that make Shinra even amoral that they knew that Jenova was a parastic alien that could potentially destroy all life but continued using her.Then again Hojo probably arrogantly thought that through science they could control Jenova and use her for their own goals.

I also wonder if Gast met with Ifana to find out why Sephiroth wasn't displaying any Cetra powers.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^The problem with all these questions is that SE hasn't given us any information about them. Or if it has, it's information we've gotten by reading in between the lines.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
^^The problem with all these questions is that SE hasn't given us any information about them. Or if it has, it's information we've gotten by reading in between the lines.

Yeah,like just how much info did President Shinra know about Jenova's true nature.And did he know about Jenova's ability to perform reunion.Was the Reunion Theory just a side project that Hojo and President Shinra knew about.

Plus did Gast also leave the company because it became apparent that they were corrupt enough to still use her even though she was a parastic alien that wiped out the Cetra.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I think Obsidian's point is that while these would be great questions to have answers to, most are impossible to even speculate on. The Gast era at Shin-Ra is a very sparsely detailed portion of FFVII's backstory; perhaps deliberately so.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I think Obsidian's point is that while these would be great questions to have answers to, most are impossible to even speculate on. The Gast era at Shin-Ra is a very sparsely detailed portion of FFVII's backstory; perhaps deliberately so.

Actually that is brilliant if you think about it because maybe the higher ups in Shinra erased Gast's work because they don't want them to find out that they are housing a parastic alien that almost the destroyed the world before.They have been known to do cover ups so it might be possible.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I think Obsidian's point is that while these would be great questions to have answers to, most are impossible to even speculate on. The Gast era at Shin-Ra is a very sparsely detailed portion of FFVII's backstory; perhaps deliberately so.
Yes, this is exactly what I am getting at. Nearly anything people have to say bout this stuff is head-canon. Granted, some head-canon fits in well enough with canon it's most likely correct, but almost none of it is confirmed by official sources.

On the flip side, this is the type of stuff that generates discussions years after the game has been thoroughly dissected. If every back-story in the game was spelled out for us, discussing the game wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as it is.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Yes, this is exactly what I am getting at. Nearly anything people have to say bout this stuff is head-canon. Granted, some head-canon fits in well enough with canon it's most likely correct, but almost none of it is confirmed by official sources.

On the flip side, this is the type of stuff that generates discussions years after the game has been thoroughly dissected. If every back-story in the game was spelled out for us, discussing the game wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as it is.

Now that I think about it you are right its fun for fans to speculate and make up theories about their favorite games,stories,etc.Its also because it give something fun for fanfiction writers to have fuel for their writing.Okay,a lot of fanfiction are bad but some of them are really gold.
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
Now that I think about it you are right its fun for fans to speculate and make up theories about their favorite games,stories,etc.Its also because it give something fun for fanfiction writers to have fuel for their writing.Okay,a lot of fanfiction are bad but some of them are really gold.

I totally agreed with Obsidian Fire in regards to it being a testament to FF7 that even after 15 years, we are still debating the ins and outs.

I would also like to offer a special mention of thanks to jazzflower who has stirred up a lot of discussion in the last couple of weeks. It has been a genuine pleasure to jump back into debating these things and see some of the forums' big guns emerge from the shadows to toss in their five cents' worth on such subjects.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I totally agreed with Obsidian Fire in regards to it being a testament to FF7 that even after 15 years, we are still debating the ins and outs.

I would also like to offer a special mention of thanks to jazzflower who has stirred up a lot of discussion in the last couple of weeks. It has been a genuine pleasure to jump back into debating these things and see some of the forums' big guns emerge from the shadows to toss in their five cents' worth on such subjects.

Thanks for the mention.^_^

I also am considering do we really want an official explanation or do we still want to form our own headcannons.Mainly because some official explanations have been met with sour repsonses when they are put out.Sometimes the fans don't like these explanations because they are retcons or just badly put in.

Still it would be fun to see a fanfiction dedicated to seeing what went on when Gast was the head of the Science Department.Mainly because if they did an official story about Gast I have a feeling they would add new characters that would take the focus off him.

Although the only story that could work with original characters would be a backstory concerning the Cetra and Jenova.It would be fun seeing Jenova working as the main villianess and be seen at her full power.It would also be interesting to see her full humanoid form.
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
I think it would be fascinating for them to include the backstory of the Cetra in general. There are a few references that could be expanded upon - three of which I would like to mention below:

1 - The mission to persuade Aerith to join AVALANCHE in Episode 11 of Before Crisis is called Operation: Laura. Who is this Laura? Is she related to the Ancients? Fuhito would have known all about the history as a student of the Study of Planet Life.

2 - The events of FF7 and Advent Children are known as the Jenova War. Shouldn't this be the Second Jenova War given the conflict between the Cetra and Jenova, leading to the latter's eventual imprisonment?

3 - Is it possible that Sephiroth's recount of history at the Shinra Manor when he states "those who did not like the journey appeared" is a reference to the arrival of the Spirans?
 
If you go to this page at Archive of Our Own you'll find all the fic tagged with "Gast Faremis" (although I always assumed his name was Faremis Gast!).

http://archiveofourown.org/works?utf8=✓&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=revised_at&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=Gast+Faremis&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=0&commit=Sort+and+Filter&tag_id=Compilation+of+Final+Fantasy+VII

I really love Ellnyx's writing, but sadly the series has never been finished. Crankyoldman has made something of a speciality out of writing about the early days of Shinra, the days of Turk-Vincent and Veld, Gast, Hojo, Lucretia and Ifalna.

Let me know if you liked any of them. You may have gathered by now that I don't particularly care for stories that paint Gast in a noble light. (sorry!)
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I think it would be fascinating for them to include the backstory of the Cetra in general. There are a few references that could be expanded upon - three of which I would like to mention below:

1 - The mission to persuade Aerith to join AVALANCHE in Episode 11 of Before Crisis is called Operation: Laura. Who is this Laura? Is she related to the Ancients? Fuhito would have known all about the history as a student of the Study of Planet Life.

2 - The events of FF7 and Advent Children are known as the Jenova War. Shouldn't this be the Second Jenova War given the conflict between the Cetra and Jenova, leading to the latter's eventual imprisonment?

3 - Is it possible that Sephiroth's recount of history at the Shinra Manor when he states "those who did not like the journey appeared" is a reference to the arrival of the Spirans?

I was thinking how about maybe make Jenova still be evil and the main atagonist but I was thinking maybe show that at the time that the Cetra civilazation had become corrupted in its last days.I was thinking that the writing left behind by the Cetra never showed their bad traits but instead more of their positive qualities.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
There isn't any evidence given that the Black Materia is any different. And the White Materia was made to specifically Meteor. So it's very probable the White Materia was made after the Black Materia was made, as in, after some one used the Black Materia to summon Meteor and then the White Materia was made. And even then the Black Materia was turned into the Temple of the Ancients.

It begs the question why the Black Materia was made in the first place, as well as who wanted it so badly it was made into a puzzle temple. For that matter, the large majority of materia are offensive materia, so it would seem that most of the memories in the Lifestream are about offense and not deference.

Actually, here are some previous posts about that issue:

LicoriceAllsorts said:
It's Yuffie who says that, during a optional conversation with Cloud in the Highwind. Something along the line that all the materia is for fighting (or is memories of destrutive forces, or something like that) and that the Ancients must have been people who fought all the time.

I know I have written more on the Black Materia and such, I just can't find the posts! (with how much we get off topic, our forums are hard to navigate...)
 
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PhantomSephiroth

Pilot of the Sephiroth_Zero
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That damn sephiroth woman
There are plenty of people who, like I said, had normal upbringings but they're still stoic, reserved, and standoffish. Like I said above, there are people in the real world even worse off than Sephiroth when it comes to social skills.

Well, the fact that he had friends and commanded armies prooves that he wasen't as anti-social as some people assumed.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
There isn't any evidence given that the Black Materia is any different. And the White Materia was made to specifically Meteor. So it's very probable the White Materia was made after the Black Materia was made, as in, after some one used the Black Materia to summon Meteor and then the White Materia was made. And even then the Black Materia was turned into the Temple of the Ancients.

It begs the question why the Black Materia was made in the first place, as well as who wanted it so badly it was made into a puzzle temple. For that matter, the large majority of materia are offensive materia, so it would seem that most of the memories in the Lifestream are about offense and not deference.

Actually, here are some previous posts about that issue:



I know me and Hawkeye have written more on the Black Materia and such, I just can't find the posts! (with how much we get off topic, our forums are hard to navigate...)

This very much seems like a lot of the Cetra's history may have been whitewashed by the Cetra themselves.I think they were very much nature loving people but they were not often peaceful as the case may seem to be.I think Jenova arrived when the Cetra were getting to their lowiest point of history.I was thinking it was Jenova's threat that led the remaining Cetra to give up their fueds and band together to fight Jenova.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^I found my old post by the way...
ObsidianFire said:
This also makes me wonder about the origins of the Black Materia. Did it surface naturally or was it created by the Cetra? The Cetra may be depicted as tree hugging hippies but it would not surprise me if two Cetra groups at war would resort to creating something such as the Black Materia.
If you look at the murals in the Temple of the Ancients, they show how to get the Black Materia and what will happen if Meteor is summoned. This means that somehow, the Cetra knew what would happen if Meteor was summoned. How did they know that?

One explanation is that they know just because they are the Cetra and the Planet told them. Another is that they somehow summoned Meteor and saw what happened first hand.

This is what Aerith says about it.
Aerith
...this must be magic. Just what Sephiroth was saying.
The Ultimate Destructive Magic, Meteor.
It finds small drifting planets with its magic.
And then collides with them. This Planet might get wiped out entirely...
The formation of the Black Materia also asks the question of how and why the White Materia was formed. Holy is a direct counter to Meteor so it would seem that the Cetra would have to know what Meteor did before they could make Holy.

It seems to me that the order would be:

Black Materia made---> Meteor cast---> White Materia made/Temple of Ancients made---> Meteor cast/Holy cast

Aerith seems very sure that Holy will work, so it would not surprise me if there were several cycles of Meteor/Holy to prove this. Peaceful, the Cetra were not. It is mentoned that they did work together to stop Jenova. In fact, for all we know, they could have used Meteor to try and destroy her.
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
^^A brilliant point to make.

I must admit that my headcanon was always that the Cetra were peaceful with one another. But, that is to then suggest that they were not a free-thinking people, where the option of competition, rivalry or even war was not present. These were a race who could wield the power of the Lifestream much in the way that Materia does which, as has been mentioned above, is primarily-offensive based. Though, it is also best to remember that the context of this for the games is that Materia is used in battle unless you are healing. If the Cetra could wield magic, it also means they could summon forth ancient monsters. It would only be a matter of time before one individual took that too far.

Unless they only summoned Fat Chocobo for the amusement of everyone.
 
Yuffie does point out, when on the HIghwind, how odd it is that so much materia is related to war and destruction, and she observes that the Ancients must have fought a lot of wars. Maybe we are meant to infer that the materia comes from the time of the war against Jenova. Or maybe we are meant to infer that they were quite war-like people.

New headcanon: Jenova arrived on the first Meteor summoned.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Well, out of all the Magic materia, there are only six materia that have only non-offensive spells; Restore, Heal, Revive, Full Cure, Barrier and Shield. Out of those six, more then half only make sense if there's offensive materia. None of the Summon materia have non-offensive spells, Support materia only really work with offensive materia, and Command materia only really make sense in an offensive capacity as well. Independent materia is really the only materia type that isn't directly offensive in it's nature.

That said, I have a hard time seeing how any society can make something like the City of the Ancients (which is art as well as architecture) without having some type of stability as well as an appreciation for higher culture. They were defiantly doing magic at a level far more advanced then people can do with just materia. Of course, having a high level of magic can go two ways...
Unless they only summoned Fat Chocobo for the amusement of everyone.
The Fat Chocobo materia was the most sought after materia as everyone wanted to make use of his hammer space. He is currently hiding out with the Chocobo Sage so Shin-Ra won't be able to use his cheap shipping rates. It's only after Cloud makes a delivery to the Chocobo Sage that he is given the Fat Chocobo materia, at which point his delivery service really gets off the ground.

^^Thanks for the head-canon!
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I was thinking that maybe Ifana herself didn't know all of her ancestor's history but much of the whitewashed version.
 
I was thinking that maybe Ifana herself didn't know all of her ancestor's history but much of the whitewashed version.

I've always wondered how old she is. My headcanon states that Ancients live a long, long time, but maybe I just got that from the word "Ancient" - I don't think there's anything in canon to support it.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I've always wondered how old she is. My headcanon states that Ancients live a long, long time, but maybe I just got that from the word "Ancient" - I don't think there's anything in canon to support it.

Plus how did the Cetra dwindle down to just Ifana.Ifana must have had parents or any other relatives so how did she become the last Cetra.
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
I've always wondered how old she is. My headcanon states that Ancients live a long, long time, but maybe I just got that from the word "Ancient" - I don't think there's anything in canon to support it.

Doubt it - Hojo clearly states that he has to create a new specimen as Aerith wouldn't last the time required for full testing at Shinra.

Also, here is a messed up headcanon - when Hojo puts Red XIII in the chamber with Aerith to "breed them", did anyone else take this literally? Crisis Core shows that this was a Fusion Chamber where organisms could be fused together rather than making them reproduce, but until that point, it had never crossed my mind that anything other than a forced sexual encounter was what Hojo was going for.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Good observation there.

Yeah, the whole "Ilfana is the last Cetra" thing through me for a loop, since that's not how populations go extinct, especially when there are still people to have kids with. It's probably more like she's the last Cetra who managed to hang on to Cetra teaching/culture. There are probably plenty of half and quarter Cetra living around the Planet, but they aren't aware of it. However, that's all head-canon.

Keep in mind that things like Limit Breaks have been shown to work for non-mako infused individuals and everyone can use materia provided its in a slot in a weapon/armor. So at some basic level, everyone is connected to the Lifestream.

To be honest, I think Shin-Ra massively mixed up teaching/culture and Cetra genes when they started looking for a Cetra that would lead them to the Promised Land. Then again, it's pretty obvious that they completely misunderstood what the Promised Land was in the first place. However, there does seem to be a genetic difference between Cetra and normal humans, so they weren't completely wrong.
 
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