The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Dashell]

no Tifa said "Okay, choose now, me or Aerith!"

Weren't you listening?

 

[minimosey]

In fact, she had the same approach that Tifa did in pushing Cloud: "dilly-dally, shilly-shally"

Yeah, if the comment about Tifa pushing is about Advent Children, she's got pretty good reasons for exploding on Cloud when she does (and she's actually very gentle before then, asking the guy who just left her and two children, one very sick, if he's been doing all right). Likewise, Aerith's got good reason for being mild in comparison to Tifa. Tifa talks to Cloud while he's hesitating to find the children and seems to be giving in to an eventual death by Geostigma. Aerith talks to him after he's gone to find the children, which as she notes "is a good sign". If he'd still been hesitating to help the kids, she'd probably have a word or two for him on that.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah, if the comment about Tifa pushing is about Advent Children, she's got pretty good reasons for exploding on Cloud when she does (and she's actually very gentle before then, asking the guy who just left her and two children, one very sick, if he's been doing all right).

Wow... amen. I just want to second this because I can't fricken stand when people say that Tifa was a bitch to Cloud here. It's like Nomura says, she's like any other woman "left behind by a man."

Also HI Vendel

 

[Vendel]

As for Aerith's role being diminished (LTD wise), well, yes. The tale leads you one way then hits you with a plot twist. The expected trope ends up being subverted.

Except the game could just as easily lead you the right way. Then the plot twist doesn't include who Cloud has feelings for.

It's just a thing I notice now and then. The game isn't automatically pushing you at Aerith.

I actually think it would be just the opposite. Aerith has lived her entire life knowing she would be lonely. She reads people well (although reacting to it, especially with people she isn't close to, is difficult for her) and she has a good understanding of the kind of person Cloud is and what he needs/wants. I would think it would be easier for him to open up to her because she probably wouldn't push so hard for him to open up.

Aerith is great at knowing what to say and getting people to open up. Just ask Barret.

Funny how the creators describe Tifa's patience with Cloud and not pushing him as a good thing. I expect Aerith would be the exact opposite.

Must be another contradiction by SE.

Yeah, if the comment about Tifa pushing is about Advent Children, she's got pretty good reasons for exploding on Cloud when she does

Yeah it's funny. I still see people saying that Tifa is butting in or the like. "Can't you see he isn't interested? Just leave him alone!". As if nothing in the fucking movie is happening outside of Cloud's love for Aerith and that Tifa has nothing else on her mind.

Also HI Vendel

Stop forum stalking Q.

 

[Dashell]

Stop forum stalking Q.

Why don't you come over here and make me?

Yeah it's funny. I still see people saying that Tifa is butting in or the like. "Can't you see he isn't interested? Just leave him alone!". As if nothing in the fucking movie is happening outside of Cloud's love for Aerith and that Tifa has nothing else on her mind.

I abhor how EVERYTHING Cloud says or does or for that matter everything AROUND him is LTD related. Tifa was NOT saying "Okay, me or Aerith?" or "Which is me? Me or the dead girl?" That doesn't even fit the context of what they were talking about... I mean come on...

*after finding out the kids have been kidnapped*

Cloud: Go... I have to talk to Rufus...

Tifa: Stop running! I know you're scared! Maybe something will happen that can never unhappen and that scares you doesn't it? Look at you, you think you have it so damn hard. Well you hate being alone so let people in. Sure you don't answer your phone, but I don't see you throwing it away either...

Reno: You go, the base is all yours...

Tifa: BTW, do you love me or Aerith?


I mean what?

 

[Vendel]

Why don't you come over here and make me?

Is Spock gonna have to choke a bitch?

I abhor how EVERYTHING Cloud says or does or for that matter everything AROUND him is LTD related.

And yet you hang out in the land of "it's always about C/A".

 

[Dashell]

Is Spock gonna have to choke a bitch?

Yes please.

And yet you hang out in the land of "it's always about C/A".

I'm a masochist, you know this by now

 

[Madame Mayor]

Tifa was NOT saying "Okay, me or Aerith?" or "Which is me? Me or the dead girl?" That doesn't even fit the context of what they were talking about... I mean come on...

Did I say this earlier? Screw it I'll say it again even if I did. It's great how the RF even says that line's about Sephy (if I'm remembering the right page and line).

 

[Winter]

I actually think it would be just the opposite. Aerith has lived her entire life knowing she would be lonely. She reads people well (although reacting to it, especially with people she isn't close to, is difficult for her) and she has a good understanding of the kind of person Cloud is and what he needs/wants. I would think it would be easier for him to open up to her because she probably wouldn't push so hard for him to open up.

Aerith is great at knowing what to say and getting people to open up. Just ask Barret.

learn to read.

Funny how the creators describe Tifa's patience with Cloud and not pushing him as a good thing. I expect Aerith would be the exact opposite.

thanks for backing that up with good reasoning, bro.

While yes, Tifa has been very patient with Cloud, you can see a strong level of frustration and worry that seems to linger around her in Advent Children. I mean, I don't blame her, but still. She is frustrated, even if she's still patient with Cloud, and I've always gotten the feeling that Cloud always picked up on that.

I don't think Kingdom Hearts Aerith's actions are always a good reflection on how Final Fantasy Aerith would act. The scene with Cloud in KH2 is a total reverse on what FF Aerith does whenever Sephiroth is involved. KH Aerith says she'll stay here and cheer for him. FF Aerith runs off to stop Sephiroth herself and tells Cloud to stay there. And it's not just a one time thing! Case of Lifestream White has her trying to tackle the problem herself until she's overwhelmed before searching for other spirits to help her, and then when that fails, in the middle of an epidemic that may come to threaten the Planet, she waffles over if and how to tell Cloud that shit's going down to get his help.

Both Aeriths end up being cheerleaders for Cloud, but their attitudes toward it pretty different. If FF Aerith had a physical body during AC, I doubt she'd be cheerleading; she'd be busy putting that body out on the frontline and possibly giving Cloud a panic attack ("Hey, because of my heritage there's this special thing only I can do to help against the remnants, be back later!" "WHAT?!") on top of everything else going on.

Hey now, Aerith may be stubborn and lacking in physical strength, but she's not an idiot. In FFVII she left Cloud not just because she knew she had the power of Holy and he didn't, but also because he beat the shit out of her. Yeah, it may have been a stresser for Cloud, but if she'd stayed he just would have killed her himself.

And tbh I think "cheerleader" has always been a terrible word to describe Aerith. In KHII she was busy doing a whole bunch of other shit to defend Traverse Town/Hollow Bastion against the Heartless while Cloud was out doing his thing. While yeah, I think that were Aerith alive in AC she would want to help fight, she knows her limits. She didn't evade the Turks for so many years out of sheer luck.

anyways my girlfriend made me an omelet with green peppers and cheddar cheese om nom nom I will debate this more later

 

[Tifabelle]

She didn't evade the Turks for so many years out of sheer luck.

Yeah. She evaded them because they didn't actively pursue her. They weren't going to use force to bring her back. If they weren't worried about hurting her, they could have easily had her.

 

[minimosey]

Yeah. She evaded them because they didn't actively pursue her. They weren't going to use force to bring her back. If they weren't worried about hurting her, they could have easily had her.

This. I loved Aerith when it was just the original game so I'm disappointed they made it this way, but Case of Shinra states outright that the Turks are being gentle, and BC shoots a big hole in her sneaking badassery when she decides to run away from home and gets captured by AVALANCHE instead.

My major point isn't that Aerith's an idiot, because she isn't; it's that she's flighty, impulsive and stubborn. It's not just that she ran off on the group, it's that she left the whole group without a word until she gave Cloud a message after the fact. It actually would have been much safer for her had she told someone "hey, I've got an idea, I'm going, this has to be done so you can't talk me out of it, I just wanted to let you know" instead of giving Cloud the details midway there. Hell, one of the party members like Red or Cid might have been willing to come with her and help protect her--not that she would have even needed it if Sephiroth hadn't picked up her plan from Cloud's head.

And backing up further, since I brought that up as part of the difference between KH and FF Aerith, I just still don't think Cloud and Aerith's dynamics in KH aren't a good substitute for Cloud and Aerith's dynamics in FF. They only have one actual speaking scene together! She tells him the exact opposite of what she does in Final Fantasy! And the incident with Holy can't be named as "the exception to the rule" when she shows that impulse to run off in BC and earlier in the game and does the same thing with Cloud again in CoLW/AC--yes, she thinks about asking Cloud for help. She delays because she doesn't want him getting hurt, and she never actually does bring it up to him: by the time she speaks to him in Advent Children, he's already been dragged into the mess by the children's kidnapping.

KH Cloud and Aerith have different circumstances, different pasts, and while they do have similarities to their FF counterparts, they don't act the same. They're both a little changed from their FF personalities, the circumstances they're reacting to are markedly different. I mean, for a simpler example of them acting different with each other, Aerith usually got irritated with Cloud trying to leave her out of things. KH Aerith doesn't show any of that. How they act in KH is an exception to how they act in FF.

thanks for backing that up with good reasoning, bro.

While yes, Tifa has been very patient with Cloud, you can see a strong level of frustration and worry that seems to linger around her in Advent Children. I mean, I don't blame her, but still. She is frustrated, even if she's still patient with Cloud, and I've always gotten the feeling that Cloud always picked up on that.

Guess why these parts are bolded.

I never said Aerith wasn't doing other things. I specifically said "cheerleader for Cloud"--so things she did for other people weren't even counted in there--and it's obvious Aerith does more than just that for Cloud in AC. She heals and rezzes him. But the encouragement is what both dynamics share in common, and the way both Aeriths get to that position is different.

 

[Zee]

i really want to dig up that kotaku article, because it's so, so relevant to SE's predicament: that in western games, there's a "bible" so that the world has set rules, so no matter who is writing, these rules always exist. i think it actually even specifically point out SE as being one of the companies that doesn't have this, so it's no wonder with the giant fuckery of this compilation, shit's all over the place.

i feel like the compliation keeps trying to pull back when the ogc made it really clear the turks were just not to be fucked with. i totally believe that she was there for so long only because they wanted it, but putting "gentle" and the turks -- or really, any aspect of shinra, is pushing it. these people had no problem experimenting on her as a kid, slapping her around, or getting a dog to rape her. so yeah, they probably let her live in her nice house with her mom, but i'm also pretty sure these people would take any opportunity to flex their muscles and remind her she's only there because they let her.

(it always struck me as a lame attempt to cover up a plot hole in the ogc. i remember a lot of people used to wonder why shinra never went after her when they knew where she lived. i personally thought it was because of tseng's hard on for her.)

also how much bearing does bc even have on...well, anything? it was a cell phone game that couldn't even be released outside of japan, ffs.

 

[Vendel]

learn to read.

Right. Because spending about an hour more with Cloud by that point means she is ttly close to and understands him and not Barret.

Funny considering by that point she is still projecting her dead boyfriend onto Cloud.

Learn to comprehend.

thanks for backing that up with good reasoning, bro.

Much better reasoning than "Aerith is so fucking perfect. She would always know just what to do/say with Cloud. Flowers and rainbows". Give me a break.

While yes, Tifa has been very patient with Cloud, you can see a strong level of frustration and worry that seems to linger around her in Advent Children. I mean, I don't blame her, but still. She is frustrated, even if she's still patient with Cloud, and I've always gotten the feeling that Cloud always picked up on that.

Frustration and worry in AC? No shit.

And I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Because the way Tifa handles Cloud is described as a good thing by the creators. Probably because she knows him better than anyone and understands him. And that is probably because she is the only one Cloud has opened his heart to.

I just really hope your point isn't along the lines of "I'm sure Aerith could have done it better".

And tbh I think "cheerleader" has always been a terrible word to describe Aerith. In KHII she was busy doing a whole bunch of other shit to defend Traverse Town/Hollow Bastion against the Heartless while Cloud was out doing his thing.

Aerith's interactions with Cloud in KH2. "Good luck Cloud. I will be cheering for you".

Her only role to Cloud is cheerleader. It fits perfectly. She basically has nothing to do with Clouds story. And Cloud has nothing to do with her story.

 

[Zee]

She basically has nothing to do with Clouds story. And Cloud has nothing to do with her story.

dude they are side characters

cloud barely has a story to begin with, and the only one he did have in kh2 was a watered down version of riku's.

 

[Vendel]

dude they are side characters

cloud barely has a story to begin with, and the only one he did have in kh2 was a watered down version of riku's.

Say what you want about it. But at least Tifa and Sephypoo are directly involved.

 

[Zee]

and aeris is his childhood friend

HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRM

 

[Ryushikaze]

While I don't want to get into a KH fuckery argument, I do want to say, Zee, we don't know if they are or not. They might be, sure. But then again, they might not. We don't know a damn thing about the Radiant Garden FF characters from before Radiant Garden fell. We barely know anything about their histories. So maybe they are childhood friends. Maybe they only met when RG fell. Cloud might not even be a RG native. Like Scrooge, he might have been a visitor caught up in the whole thing. He probably isn't, but we don't really know for sure. Like with Tifa being real or not, we're not entirely sure yet.

I'm curious if Zack has a relation to RG, but they don't even touch on it during BBS.

 

[Winter]

This. I loved Aerith when it was just the original game so I'm disappointed they made it this way, but Case of Shinra states outright that the Turks are being gentle, and BC shoots a big hole in her sneaking badassery when she decides to run away from home and gets captured by AVALANCHE instead.

>BC
fuck, that's my bad, I didn't even read BC's summary. fucking cell phone games, SE i hate you

I WANT TO SEE THE WORLD BUT I'M AFRAID OF THE SKY HURP DERP
EVEN THOUGH I LIVE IN A BIG DIRTY CITY FULL OF DEATH AND PROSTITUTES

okay so I lied, apparently Aerith is a gigantic retard, my only argument here is that maybe she grew out of it? I don't even know. The Compilation irritates me and I just haven't caught up with it enough to keep debating about this. I was always under the impression, given the OGC, that the Turks were serious fucking business. I hate to cop out like this, but I guess you're right. She's impulsive.

Nonetheless, I would like to think she really did grow out of it in the years that passed. She took pretty damn good care of her mother, and by the time she left the second time she knew what she was going into.

My major point isn't that Aerith's an idiot, because she isn't; it's that she's flighty, impulsive and stubborn. It's not just that she ran off on the group, it's that she left the whole group without a word until she gave Cloud a message after the fact. It actually would have been much safer for her had she told someone "hey, I've got an idea, I'm going, this has to be done so you can't talk me out of it, I just wanted to let you know" instead of giving Cloud the details midway there. Hell, one of the party members like Red or Cid might have been willing to come with her and help protect her--not that she would have even needed it if Sephiroth hadn't picked up her plan from Cloud's head.

First of all, nobody would have let her leave. Splitting up the group is a terrible idea. Second of all, how the hell was she supposed to explain what she was feeling? "Oh, I need to go here because I ~sense things~" isn't a very good way of persuading others to come with you or help you. Besides, it's something she felt was a part of her destiny; she's the last of her kind, asking others for help has never really been her cup of tea. It's not that it's stupid of her, it's just what she prefers. It's probably not a good idea, but she wouldn't have it any other way. She did what she did because she knew she had to.

besides, she was gonna die anyways, once Sephiroth decided he wanted her dead it was all over.

KH Cloud and Aerith have different circumstances, different pasts, and while they do have similarities to their FF counterparts, they don't act the same. They're both a little changed from their FF personalities, the circumstances they're reacting to are markedly different. I mean, for a simpler example of them acting different with each other, Aerith usually got irritated with Cloud trying to leave her out of things. KH Aerith doesn't show any of that. How they act in KH is an exception to how they act in FF.

Aerith WAS irritated with Cloud in KH. She wasn't mad, she supported him, and she knew she couldn't stop him, but hell if she wasn't a little irritated that he hid things form her even though she could read him pretty well.

also, I tend to make lots of references to KH-verse Aerith because I like her more than Compilation Aerith both KH games were released before most of the Compilation, and I've always felt them to be better interpretations of her character. But that's just opinions, herp derp. I've always disliked most of the characterizations of various people in the Compilation.

Guess why these parts are bolded.

come on, Cloud leaves for days/weeks on end and Tifa calls him repeatedly. she's frustrated and he knows it. Maybe it's not stated outright, but it's pretty easy to pick up on.

Much better reasoning than "Aerith is so fucking perfect. She would always know just what to do/say with Cloud. Flowers and rainbows". Give me a break.

lol that's not what I said, but okay. i'm such a STUPID CLERITH RITE
you have the same mentality about anything I say regarding Aerith/FFVII/the compilation as everyone as CxA has about CxT shippers. and yet you make fun of them

I just really hope your point isn't along the lines of "I'm sure Aerith could have done it better".

my point was that they'd have issues, but Aerith "annoying" Cloud wouldn't be one of them. they would have done just fine.

We don't know a damn thing about the Radiant Garden FF characters from before Radiant Garden fell. We barely know anything about their histories. So maybe they are childhood friends. Maybe they only met when RG fell.

according to the manga, they were indeed all friends before RG fell, which happened when they were young (about 8 or 9, I think? idek, they were like little kids). no explanation as far as Cloud's relation with Aerith, though, but I'd say it's safe to assume that if he knows the gang and got lost looking for Aerith that he was probably friends with all of them when he was a kid as well.

 

[ForceStealer]

I WANT TO SEE THE WORLD BUT I'M AFRAID OF THE SKY HURP DERP
EVEN THOUGH I LIVE IN A BIG DIRTY CITY FULL OF DEATH AND PROSTITUTES

I have to say that this bit isn't as awful as you make it sound. I mean the girl has lived her entire life in laboratories and indoors or at least under cover (I'm not sure if the slums count as outdoors or not). The word choice might be cheesy, but it stands to reason that being out in the open would unsettle her. Especially if she's used to trying the lay low due to the Turks and stuff.

But yeah, BC sucks, we knew that

 

[Zee]

While I don't want to get into a KH fuckery argument, I do want to say, Zee, we don't know if they are or not.

winter already mentioned the manga, but i also recall articles covering the release of KH describing them as such.

 

[Ryushikaze]

winter already mentioned the manga, but i also recall articles covering the release of KH describing them as such.

The Manga and the game continuities are distinct from each other, though.

What articles are you referring to? I don't recall anything of the sort from the KH ultis, but it has been some time since I examined them.

 

[Zee]

i just remember it was in japanese, and the image next to it was the one of aerith leaning towards cloud. i can't remember if it was the ultimania or a magazine.

still, given that the ff7 characters all hail from the same place, it's pretty logical to assume cloud also grew up there.

 

[Winter]

The Manga and the game continuities are distinct from each other, though.

I always figured the manga was canon. I mean it's pretty much the same shit, just without Nightmare Before Christmas.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I always figured the manga was canon. I mean it's pretty much the same shit, just without Nightmare Before Christmas.

The overall shit's the same, but the details are different, and there are some differences in the overall plot later on. And Manga Aerith is a complete and utter plotz.

And it's fairly logical that the FF crew grew up in RG, sure, but RG's a full city. IIRC, none of the others met Leon til the heartless outbreak.

Anyways, my point is 'We're not sure' and while I'll look for that scan and ask my friend for scans of her KH ultis, I don't expect to be moving from 'we're not sure' for awhile.

Addendum: Due to the use of RG and Leon above, my brain has not given me a mental image of Radiant Garden as Racoon City circa RE2.

 

[Zee]

And Manga Aerith is a complete and utter plotz.