The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

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Zee

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Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple, and that it is a strong basis for Cloud's behavior and makes his actions to "unfreeze Aerith's smile" seem much more significant. Going with Cloud/Tifa would break that fantasy-eque, and some how diminish the relationship between Cloud and Aerith.
I know a lot of people feel this way, but imo dealing the the loss of a loved one and the hard process of moving on is pretty realistic*, and doesn't take away from his behavior or his relationship with Tifa.

*Post-death lifestream chats aside, of course, but still.
 
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null

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null
In-Maiden, Aerith is searching for memories that show Cloud's individuality. She explicitly remembers...the way he walks???

IIRC at the end she tells Zack he's too much of a ladies man, not like Cloud at all.

Hey, for once it's not contradictory. Law of averages.
 

Dashell

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Arguably, we were already on it with discussing a few contradictions in it.

BTW, Quex, in your essay, you really do need to address Aerith's backslide in understanding the distinction between Cloud and Zack.

The 'I've realized that even though you act alike, you're different people' vs 'Tried to remember everything unique and most of that is Zack'
You know and I was gonna... and... I didn't feel like dragging the LTD into it...

but okay fine.
See the thing is, she was trying to remember things Cloud did that were unique, so naturally, she'd go over the things he did that reminded her of Zack as well, hence Zack appears. Imagine that only... you know better :awesome:

Does anyone here really think Maiden is canon? Seriously folks, let's see a show of hands.
Hi

Also Ryu, where's a link to Benny's blog where he said he wasn't supervised when writing Maiden? I can't find that anywhere... cause you know searching for Japanese stuffs isn't my forte.
 
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null

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null
That's fine, but even if Maiden was canon at one point, you don't think CoL supercedes it?
 

Tifabelle

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I would say so. First off, Maiden wasn't considered viable even before that. But I agree, why write CoL if Maiden was supposed to be considered the word on the subject.

Also, if you want to talk "fantasy" couples, I have a good one for you.
Zack & Aerith
 

The Twilight Mexican

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Ryu: I'd actually given Que an answer to the point about conjuring up Zack, but she didn't include it for some reason. The reponse she just gave is sort of what I said, I think.

I can't really remember and I can't check it right now because I'm on my phone, about to clock in at work.

I'll reply to the rest of your points when I have a chance tomorrow, but in the meantime, can you explain what you mean about Hojo not being in the Lifestream when he's supposed to be?


null, Tifabelle: Maiden and CotL White cover different periods in time. I don't see how one would replace the other, or why one renders the other unnecessary.


Everyone: By the way, I've started on the FFVII canon article. It's mostly done, but I am going to need something from Mako that he said he can't provide until Monday.

And, no, it's not his cock. That's always available to me.
 

null

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null
null, Tifabelle: Maiden and CotL White cover different periods in time. I don't see how one would replace the other, or why one renders the other unnecessary.

Although I will hate you (forever!) for prompting me to reread that prose equivalent of a pig penis again, you are absolutely correct. I mistakenly recalled the first part of CoL describing the events immediately following Aeriths' death, coinciding with (and therefore superceding) the events of Maiden.

Regardless of canonicity, reading Maiden is like puking on a pile of shit. It's easier to pick pepper out of fly shit while wearing boxing gloves than read Maiden.
 

Zee

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What, wait, what "backsliding"?

r1eja9jpg.gif
 

Dashell

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Ryu: I'd actually given Que an answer to the point about conjuring up Zack, but she didn't include it for some reason. The reponse she just gave is sort of what I said, I think.

I didn't really feel it was necessary because I don't consider it a contradiction. If nothing else it's just something people seem to use to PROVE Aerith was still in love with Zack and not Cloud.


But here's what Tres sent me:


9) During the time of the original FFVII, Aerith had come to terms with the knowledge that Cloud and Zack were two different people. However, in Maiden, when she tries to remember the details of who Cloud is, her thoughts just end up awakening Zack's spirit, as though she still thinks of them as the same

-Not a contradiction. Maiden even says early on that Aerith had already figured out that Cloud and Zack were different:

(Translation by LH Yeung/XComp)

At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter.

For that matter, when she accidentally awoke Zack, she was basically wringing her hair out trying to recall unique details about Cloud that would allow her to help him recover himself -- so she naturally went over everything she remembered him doing, including the things that reminded her of Zack:

(Translation by LH Yeung/XComp)

"I felt something odd about him but, was everything really just made up and part of his false character? Cloud wasn't real at all? ...No, that can't be true. There were things that only Cloud could think of. Things that he done because he was Cloud. He was never an empty vessel to begin with!"

But she couldn't figure out the truth. Her thoughts just went in circles. Aerith delved into her memories again. Memories that showed Cloud's individuality. The way he walked. She remembered all his actions one by one... Most of those thoughts merged into the Sea of Mako and awakened a character. The character recognized the image she recalled and "he" woke up.
 

Winter

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Fighter and Zee totally already beat me to what all I wanted to say, but I'm going to say it anyways. :sadpanda:

Splinter said:
Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple, and that it is a strong basis for Cloud's behavior and makes his actions to "unfreeze Aerith's smile" seem much more significant. Going with Cloud/Tifa would break that fantasy-eque, and some how diminish the relationship between Cloud and Aerith.
Actually, I think the Cloud/Aerith relationship is pretty realistic. Like Fighter said, Cloud and Tifa do fill that old fantasy of getting the sexy girl next door/falling in love with your childhood friend, and I think that counts as fantasy just as much (if not moreso) than Cloud/Aeris.

Although, at the same time, I think that Cloud/Tifa is sort of an inversion of the trope (someone else mentioned this like 20 or so pages ago), because it's a much more realistic take on what it's like to spend your life with someone you grew up with. It's not a fairytale, and it's what makes Cloud/Tifa interesting as a pairing.

This has always disappointed me, because I like Cloud/Aerith but think that if Aerith had lived and actually gotten together with Cloud, she would drive him up the wall sometimes and their relationship would have problems just like Cloud and Tifa's--only different ones.

I actually think it would be just the opposite. Aerith has lived her entire life knowing she would be lonely. She reads people well (although reacting to it, especially with people she isn't close to, is difficult for her) and she has a good understanding of the kind of person Cloud is and what he needs/wants. I would think it would be easier for him to open up to her because she probably wouldn't push so hard for him to open up.

Look at the difference in the two girls' behaviors in Kingdom Hearts. It may not be canon, but it's still a reflection on their relationships with Cloud.
 
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Splintered

unsavory tart
Actually, I think the Cloud/Aerith relationship is pretty realistic. Like Fighter said, Cloud and Tifa do fill that old fantasy of getting the sexy girl next door/falling in love with your childhood friend, and I think that counts as fantasy just as much (if not moreso) than Cloud/Aeris.
I think the point of this argument is that, at least from my understanding, that C/A is very much the longing love lost that Vincent and Lucrecia have and there's a very tragic-romantic vibe compared to fairly disjointed but still somewhat functional C/T.

It could be that if Aerith were alive, she would have had a good realistic relationship. But if we are strictly speaking about how relationships impact the storytelling, there is no way Aerith is coming back alive, ever, because that would be the death of the entire heart of the story. As it stands now, if you buy into C/A I see where more people find it more fantasy-esque for Cloud to have ever longing feelings for Aerith and continue this relationship even after her death. Even Aerith's role is more rooted in the supernatural and fantasy.

Like, one of the common things I've read is the whole "Nobody wants to see a couple that fights all the time." This is obviously an exaggeration, but the underlying current in this thought is that some C/A fans believe that C/T is inherently unromantic and at worst, unhealthy compared to C/A. The argument the other way is that C/T is simply realistic and C/A is unhealthy.
 

null

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null
-Not a contradiction. Maiden even says early on that Aerith had already figured out that Cloud and Zack were different:

(Translation by LH Yeung/XComp)

For that matter, when she accidentally awoke Zack, she was basically wringing her hair out trying to recall unique details about Cloud that would allow her to help him recover himself -- so she naturally went over everything she remembered him doing, including the things that reminded her of Zack:

(Translation by LH Yeung/XComp)

Not to mention that at the end, she mentions the difference between the two... again. My guess is that Benny was looking for an interesting way to introduce Zack, not have Aerith yo-yo between understanding and not. (Although his writing is shitty, so who can say for sure.)

A real contradiction would be Aerith being truly clueless about Zack's death. That goes against CC (and its Ultimania, apparently).
 

Dashell

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A real contradiction would be Aerith being truly clueless about Zack's death. That goes against CC (and its Ultimania, apparently).
The Compilation has always been consistent that she doesn't know he died. People will try to argue she's in denial, but it can't really be proven.
 

Tifabelle

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Like, one of the common things I've read is the whole "Nobody wants to see a couple that fights all the time." This is obviously an exaggeration, but the underlying current in this thought is that some C/A fans believe that C/T is inherently unromantic and at worst, unhealthy compared to C/A. The argument the other way is that C/T is simply realistic and C/A is unhealthy.

Personally, there is a line between liking a couple, and knowing which is the canon couple. Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, and I still like them as a couple. That doesn't mean I couldn't see the appeal or value in a Cloud & Aerith relationship. I have no problem with those that want to "ship" them, but they aren't a couple. And that's when people start to mock the practicality of the relationship. For me, if Cloud & Aerith were the couple, I wouldn't say it's unhealthy, especially in a Final Fantasy world where they could do an Aerith-Zack thing where they are reunited in death or some such.
 

Dashell

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Yeah I really hate people attacking C/T saying they fight all the time, they aren't good for each other, Tifa's a bully and Cloud just clams up when she's around her... I mean there's nothing to support any of this yet it's spread around like it's so obvious. I hate that :(
 

Tifabelle

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Because some people feel the need to bulldoze Cloud & Tifa's relationship in order to validate Cloud & Aerith, and it's really not necessary. But I guess when you're out to prove that Cloud & Aerith are the "intended couple" (whatever the fuck that means) then you have to start by invalidating his relationship with Tifa. Sort of telling, isn't it.
 

Dashell

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Yeah but even if you do disprove Cloud and Tifa, that doesn't automatically prove Cloud and Aerith :monster:
 

minimosey

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I actually think it would be just the opposite. Aerith has lived her entire life knowing she would be lonely. She reads people well (although reacting to it, especially with people she isn't close to, is difficult for her) and she has a good understanding of the kind of person Cloud is and what he needs/wants. I would think it would be easier for him to open up to her because she probably wouldn't push so hard for him to open up.

Look at the difference in the two girls' behaviors in Kingdom Hearts. It may not be canon, but it's still a reflection on their relationships with Cloud.

I don't think Kingdom Hearts Aerith's actions are always a good reflection on how Final Fantasy Aerith would act. The scene with Cloud in KH2 is a total reverse on what FF Aerith does whenever Sephiroth is involved. KH Aerith says she'll stay here and cheer for him. FF Aerith runs off to stop Sephiroth herself and tells Cloud to stay there. And it's not just a one time thing! Case of Lifestream White has her trying to tackle the problem herself until she's overwhelmed before searching for other spirits to help her, and then when that fails, in the middle of an epidemic that may come to threaten the Planet, she waffles over if and how to tell Cloud that shit's going down to get his help.

Both Aeriths end up being cheerleaders for Cloud, but their attitudes toward it pretty different. If FF Aerith had a physical body during AC, I doubt she'd be cheerleading; she'd be busy putting that body out on the frontline and possibly giving Cloud a panic attack ("Hey, because of my heritage there's this special thing only I can do to help against the remnants, be back later!" "WHAT?!") on top of everything else going on.

As you said, Aerith has lived her entire life knowing she would be lonely... and this is one of the key differences between her and KH Aerith, who as far as we know has at least had the rest of the Traverse Town crew for the past 9 years and doesn't have any unique talents to hide or be persecuted for. It's exactly the loneliness that I think might cause trouble for FF Aerith in a relationship or in a family. She didn't tell Zack certain things that kiiiinda were relevant to him, since he worked for the company trying to kidnap her, she's run off from home, she's stubborn. Which she kind of needs to be, since Tseng keeps trying to convince her to go back to Badtouch Labs--she needs to look out for her own interests--but she's stubborn enough that her mom points it out about her, doesn't even try arguing with her on things, then sneaks around Cloud trying to leave, aaand she never does actually listen to Cloud when he tells her not to do something dangerous.

It just seems like if they ever got into a real argument, Aerith would be frustrating to deal with.

Does Tifa push too hard for Cloud to open up? Yeah, she does ask about him, but it never really seemed excessive to me.
 
FF Aerith runs off to stop Sephiroth herself and tells Cloud to stay there. And it's not just a one time thing!

While true, in FFVII she was the only person who could summon Holy to stop him, whereas I think she knows in KH that Sephiroth is something Cloud needs to fight on his own (or well, on his own with his light against the darkness).
 

Tifabelle

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I think sometimes it gets forgotten that although Aerith is nice and gentle, she is still outgoing and strong-willed.

In fact, she had the same approach that Tifa did in pushing Cloud: "dilly-dally, shilly-shally"
 
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