It's about to become even more nostalgic. GIANT RESPONSE TO SEVERAL POSTS FOLLOWS.
Also, where did the Nomura quote of "bringing in Tifa" come from?
Nomura said it. It's the same article where he mentions they decided to have two heroes and bump one of them off.
tbh I was wondering what sorts of creator material exists before the Compilation. I'm just compiling some information. After this semester I think I may get started on a project I've been mulling over for a while. Not really LTD related, but I figured this was the best thread to go to. Other than this site and Citadel, I really don't know where else would have them.
Also, from early materials:
I admit that I am giant sap but damn, this sounds way better than what they came up with for CC.
I'm not so sure that's actually Z/A. There was a point in the early drafts where Aerith's first (unrequited) love was Sephiroth himself.
"I was honestly expecting Cloud being safe and secure in Tifa’s arms at the end of Advent Children – no more bitter wandering, etc. But we see that he has took off to wandering again (when we all KNOW better that he should just stay there supporting Tifa and all even for a bit), and his travels took him to a field of flowers where Aerith was waiting."
But that is not what happens. At ALL. Cloud ISN'T wandering, he's MAKING DELIVERIES. They didn't take him 'to' a field of flowers with Aerith in them, he DROVE RIGHT PAST HER. And he was HEADED HOME. To spend a day off with the family.
If this should prove that Tifa and Cloud officially are a couple, then one is probably blind not to see that implication.
One is not blind if one does not see what is not there.
Going back to FF VII, the Highwind scene was probably something which only showed how precious Tifa was to Cloud, and how Cloud was precious to Tifa. After all, what happened in the end credits? Cloud knew that Aerith would be waiting for him “there”.
And Tifa wanted to go meet her.
ZOMFG, OT3!
In the “Case of Tifa”, Tifa tried very hard to create a family with Denzel and Marlene, and probably some other kids too.
NO. No other kids. No orphanage. YOU. WERE. WRONG.
But she was really distraught. Cloud was obviously doing fine until Elmyra asked him to deliver a bunch of flowers for Aerith in the City of the Ancients. He never got over the guilt of having Aerith die in his arms and it really haunted him so much that even Tifa commented on it in Advent Children. She was frustrated because she simply felt that she could NOT do anything for Cloud. Probably in her mind, Aerith was really the only person who got to Cloud in a way she couldn’t do.
You have proposed this idea several times. You have not substantiated it beyond the vaguest notions, and the body of the evidence is decidedly against it. Not only is Aerith not the only person who 'got to Cloud,' Tifa is also among the people who 'got to him' over the course of the movie, alongside Vincent, Marlene, Aerith, and Zack.
In the Highwind scene, it was weird that if they had some kind of intimacy there, Cloud is acting like nothing out of the ordinary happened.
Why would he?
Tifa is a rather shy and nervous girl, she obviously didn’t want people to get the WRONG idea.
She's also be embarassed if she thought people had the right idea about what happened that night.
If any, she was also at fault for not knowing HOW to convey her feelings to Cloud – evidenced by the way she reacted to Cloud’s guilt in Advent Children[/B].
Are you saying Tifa's words- which actually spur Cloud into action, are the wrong way to treat him?
Cloud got his act together by that moment with Tifa, but we knew all along that it was largely his commitment to Aerith and her death that he was moved to challenge Sephiroth.
No, we knew all along that it was his desire for revenge from 5 years ago, to settle his past, that moved him to challenge Sephiroth. Aerith came along as an additional motivation, for everyone.
Plus, Aerith isn't his personal reason for going. 'We have to do this' as opposed to 'I have a very personal memory I'm fighting for' referencing the tender secret memories know one could know.
In AC/C, it's his desire to protect the living that drives him to fight, despite the fear of failing and losing them as he lost his good friends and family before.
He didn’t WANT Aerith’s smile just to be frozen like that. And funny how Aerith should be shafted here, all of their friends know how important Aerith was and wearing those Ribbons in memory of her. Tifa KNEW how important Aerith IS to Cloud.
And to her.
The many games that Cloud and Aerith appear in seem to debunk Cloti as well – wouldn’t an official couple get in so many games together, exploring/exploiting their longing for each other or love for each other? How Aerith was always Light to Cloud’s Darkness, how it was always Cloud’s guilt about Aerith’s death that was always played upon?
EXCEPT IT ISN'T. Aerith ISN'T Cloud's light. Tifa is. There ISN'T a focus in AU games about his guilt over her death. Hell, there's more focus about his hate on for Sephiroth and his friendship with Zack!
Cloud could probably mourn about his other friends who died in the struggle, but his grief over Aerith’s death was something that was always there in his heart.
And his grief over Zack.
Aerith was the one who also lightened Cloud’s burden before he and the rest of the gang took on Bahamut SIN. And it was Aerith who told Cloud to FORGIVE himself. Was there anything that Tifa did to remotely even push Cloud to forgiving himself of that guilt? She probably tried, but obviously she was having a hard time trying to. Again, one will have to be BLIND not to see that implication. Cloud let go of his guilt because of the encouragement he got from Aerith,
And from Tifa. And Vincent. And Marlene.
who wanted to meet the real him on that fateful date in the Golden Saucer.
Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the point you were just making.
People also seem to have forgotten that Aerith initially liked Cloud because he reminded her of Zack, but then she realizes that she likes Cloud little by little for who he really is. If she didn’t then why the hell will she even WANT to meet the REAL Cloud if she knew he was just Zack?
You've created a bizarre dichotomy here, missing a very important point. Aerith, though loving Cloud for Cloud, knows nothing about him, realizing she's been sort of mentally filling in with Zack. So she resolves to get to meet him. She wants to meet him BECAUSE she does not know him. And she never gets the chance.
It's tragic is what it is.
Also, Japanese is a hard language to translate and could mean many things to different people.
The same is true of English. I don't see anyone sane whinging about solved LTs in English.
Frankly, this is like a debate with panels and panels comparing IchiRuki/IchiHime/NaruSaku/NaruHina, etc. etc., etc. in one fandom and proving how one ship is definitely tons better than one ship, complete with interpretations of how the characters were drawn, symbolic implication and what have you. This probably is one case where people interpret it as they will too. This is also not the case of MY TRANSLATION IS BETTER THAN YOURS LOLZ.
Fuck 'better.' No, seriously. Fuck it. This is about which is canon. It's a matter of looking at the series, and asking a single, defined question with a simple answer, "Which one did he choose." Naruto and Bleach are based on shipping preference. FF7's LTD, Harry Potter's LTD, and Avatar's LTD, those are all based on concrete evidence.
Especially Book 4.
How sure is it even if the feelings that Tifa and Cloud have for each other – the feelings that match – instantly equates to true love?
Because those feelings are included under the 'displays of romantic love' heading. The entire section is about people trying to display their romantic love for someone else. There's even a subsection specifically about non romantic love in the corner. I do have to ask- did you read the page?
Love as best friends probably at the most – for lovers nothing was written there, only emo tripping by Cloud as far as the movie went,
Cloud's 'emo tripping' however, was all about how he was a failure and useless to his family.
and how Sephiroth wanted to use Cloud’s guilt over Aerith’s death AGAIN a telling clue as to who Cloud still holds very dear in his heart."
But Sephy didn't want to use Cloud's guilt. He wanted to take what was most precious to Cloud and destroy it.
Anyone who thinks this is straight out CloTi bashing and anti CloTi or pure Clerith feel free to comment on it.
I think it's gloriously off base in a number of ways.
Books, movies, everything - they mean different things to different people, and even how much you really like it tends to color how you view it too. Also PLEASE remember that what is also being argued here is an abstract idea. Love cannot be equated VERY well just so said lines say it is.
Except we can define love to a useful degree. We do so in real life. Why can we not apply things to fiction, where things are often far more cut and dry than in real life?
It is very funny how this is even being argued in EXACT terms - like how somebody could neatly put anything in a guide, for argument's sakes. If it were an argument about something EXACT that has happened - say, some war - it could be measured in exact terms but you can't really say how you felt about it unless the teacher asks you HOW to explain it, WHAT you felt.
So, you're saying that if an author tells us 'Billie felt bad about what he had done,' we can't trust that he did unless he expounds on it?
That's silly.
In here students start to feel differently, put out different feelings about how that war felt to them. A teacher has no control over what her students FEEL about a war, not unless they were compelled, or it's some kind of law that they should only feel that way and it's dangerous to think otherwise. You cannot equate a feeling into exact science.
... And no one is. But being told that two people confirmed feelings of romantic love for each other isn't 'telling those people how to think,' it's telling US what THOSE people DO think.
You cannot simply say, that does not happen because it's already written that it is - that's pure bull and you know it. People will always HAVE different opinions on anything. This is what makes us diverse.
Yes, we CAN simply say that some things happen and some things don't. Different perspectives and opinions do not change reality, even fictional realities. If I think rabid squirrels with M16s killed president ShinRa, that does not somehow mean there's a doubt as to his actual death, because the 'how' has been confirmed.
Going back on the LTD, it's even silly that people should even debate it up to now. Ultimanias and what else have already added much to the reason WHY people are now hating on the FF 7 fandom - mainly because of the shipping wars, and because it only complicates things more as each Compilation game/novella/whatever is announced. What we know about the original game was made more and more complicated by side side side side side side stories and sub sub sub sub sub sub characters. With each game put out, relationships also became more complicated. Add this to the novellas and the movie. I laughed at the claim of Dirge Of Cerberus, saying that it's another take on the world's favorite story. While I loved FF 7 and its characters generally, having to go through remakes of remakes of remakes of remakes of remakes is already just putting me into boredom with each subsequent release. I loved Crisis Core though - for me it had that feel of FF 7 to it, whereas Dirge was...well what exactly? Bored enough to try other games.
And yet, despite all of the extra games, and the confusion, and the extra characters and sub plots and all that, each new entry has remained very consistent that Cloud and Tifa belong together. Again, not that preference changes validity. As much as would like to remove or rewrite the last Doctor Who christmas special from the timeline, it's still currently part of the timeline.
The first post I made was an opinion. In CloTi's minds, they probably only see the AERITH ZOMG that's plastered on each and every few set of words. They fail to see the CloTi written in there as well. Can you tell me that it was straight bull?
Yes. I can. Because people SEE PAIRINGS EVERYWHERE.
People see Zack/ Cissnei where the creators have said she was never even considered as a romantic interest for Zack.
People have seen Harry/Hermione and STILL SEE it despite J.K. Rowling calling them delusional and very soundly ending the series with different romantic pairings.
People still see Katara/Zuko despite THE NEW SERIES having the kid of the canon pairing as a character.
I recognized Tifa's pain, her frustration, and how she really cared much about Cloud. I also lament at what people have been doing to other people on that LTD front page, being gunned down in favor of what they probably think is the EXACT literal translation of the article. Why, even the Bible is being challenged.
You say that like it's impressive. The Bible was rewritten and edited hundreds of times in the last 2000 years, in the 500 years before that since the Torah was formally written down, and moreso in the oral tradition predating that.
Hell, what we consider 'the bible' wasn't even formalized til the 4th century AD.
If you guys could even give me an example where an argument has actually stood the test of time, is still accepted up to now, has no haters, has no different interpretations made by scholars and scholars and what have you, then bash all other people all you want. What we basically know now is WAY different than what people 500 years before knew. What we may know now as our "sacred" beliefs may be made different 15 minutes later, 2 days from now, 3 months from now.
...And?
An idea having haters and dissidents is completely irrelevant. Appeal to Popularity/ conformity is a logical fallacy.
The existence of a conflict does not mean that one side cannot be correct, or at least MORE correct than their opposition. Evolution v Creationism, for example. Despite with the Discovery Insitute would like you to believe, the evidence is IN and in favor of Evolution and against creationsim. And it keeps coming in.
Also, the internet? Victim what have you? Oh PLEASE.
Just so we can be tough guys on the internet doesn't mean you can go around bullying people just so you feel like it, and then cry foul if you were bullied as well.
Then why are you doing it?
I mean, folks here dish it out, but we aren't exactly expecting kid gloves, either.
This isn't Miss Manners and Right Conduct - you are literally showing the world how you probably might handle a confrontation, an attack on what you believe in, God knows what else.
You'll find, I think, that despite the lack of a specific decorum regarding derision and insults, we tend to conduct ourselves with a measure of actual academic rigor.
Of course you know you don't - the argument "this is not the real me on the internet/implying that what one shows on the internet is what one really is in real life" etc. may be put out here - but do they know and will they bother to know?
Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.
@ Quexinos
People can translate anything given the right studies or what have you. Used to go to Japanese class when I was in college, but since I don't use it, my skills are now rather poor and I have to rely on my Japanese dictionary a lot (mostly for trying to translate old Shonen Jump I had before). But given that argument, it's pretty much the same if you'd translate something - like a manga scan for instance - then it would have different meanings for different people. I've been on a shipping war here and there so I know that. I know all the panel size discussions, even official artwork, and one's facial expressions, and deliberate opinions about what has been said here and there. I also know some of the anime fandom (what I've been part of anyway). One such fandom that comes to mind is Gundam SEED - hell, even the OPs, EDs are discussed and used as fanon/canon/shipdom/whatever fodder. And it also has a terrible, terrible shipping fandom. Unless we really do know what the author is saying, then we can't do anything about it.
... We DO know what they're saying, though. And most of what you're citing, the 'panel size' and shit has nothing to do with translations and everthing to do with rabid whackaloon shippers.
Ren ai is romantic love that I know. For serious, if it were, they'd already have it sealed right at the end of the game.
They did! Without words!
Maybe without clothes!
The fact that there are people still shipping otherwise - from Cloud to Barrett to Sephiroth to Angeal to whoever that creepy stalker Zack had in Crisis Core - it means that people have different opinions. On the LTD, there are the Cleriths. I haven't met one absolute fanatic though. We can all ship Cloud and Terra and we don't care what people say (it's pretty popular on pixiv for some reason). At any rate, it's always open to opinions and debate, even if there are official statements.
But opinions don't supercede facts. We, like Joe Friday, only care about the facts. And the City, Lahoya, California.
::Cues Dragnet Theme::
I'm working them in!
In said Gundam SEED, there is a famous rumor going around that the head writer shot down the character played by said VA just because she called her out on her work ethics (the head writer was called out, not the VA). So said couple pairing literally went down to nothing through bad writing and shooting down of characterization. Note that it was really popular, and I kind of liked the couple as well. Confirmed dead by a magazine scan. Poor girl who hooked up with said character's ex got hate and rage from the shipper fans. Etc. etc.
But again, that's a rumor. And it's a pairing that you admit never actually happened. It's not FACT.
I am not saying it's wrong. Ryushikaze already provided a good point, that non fans and fans alike get mistakes sometimes. It's no different than the LTD. It will always be open for debate, opinions, shipdom wars, the like. Just so said Ultimanias and whatever gets thrown in for good measure to back it up with "facts", the fact remains that there will always be people who see otherwise. And it means different things for different people. I know translation is hard work, but saying the LTD is different from other works is actually laughable. Even if they say it IS the conclusion to the debate, it will still be open to debate, because it means different things to different people.
Which we don't deny.
We just see it as irrelevant to the facts of the matter. People arguing Clukiroth are just so much noise in the signal.
It's not that I don't like it - it's more of it's become a vindication to the more fervent CloTi fans, that they use it to smash through logic and reasoning that some Cleriths have for going against it.
But the 'logic and reasoning' it is used to smash through are based on false premises, assumptions about the continuity that can be shown as incorrect.
Tifa is a great character, but putting her on an elevated scale like that - not even when CloTis know (or not) she KNOWS the importance of Aerith in Cloud's life
You're falling into a mental trap here. You're assuming the importance MUST BE ROMANTIC.
- is like rather saying that Tifa's characterization was thrown out of the window and became OMG TRUE LOVE. Nomura stated that he tried to create Tifa as a strong yet feminine woman - which is still up to debate too, with reasons that probably should be discussed in another thread. What she went through - the game, the novellas, the movie - there is a lot of reason to confirm that she grows to care deeply for Cloud. But the funny thing is, the more fervent CloTis failed to see how pained and anguished she was when she couldn't DO anything for Cloud, something that was probably hinted at several times, acknowledged by Tifa herself.
But she COULD do something for him, and did. So did Vincent and Marlene. It's not 'All or nothing Aerith.'
Is this true love by Cloud? We know he hates people dear to him get hurt, and he's bothered by it. He can't express himself well? We have their childhood friendship and not even Tifa could say much about how even close they were, because Cloud was just a kid who has a terrible crush on her and he's rather introverted. Maybe she did know him than just merely being a next door neighbor enough to notice that he was acting oddly the day he came to Midgar. Tifa couldn't get herself to talk to Cloud even if she knew something was odd. It must probably mean that she was at a level that she knows Cloud's personality, but not enough to pry him open so they could actually talk about it. It would make sense that Tifa would be the one with him in the Lifestream - there is no one else who knows Cloud well enough to help him deal with the lies he put up. Besides, his other crutch is dead and long gone - that one person that Tifa knew was very important to Cloud. We can say that Aerith is a very dear someone right? Aerith became very important to all of them. But we also see Cloud who seems to be the most burdened of them all, even if they were all there together and witnessed Aerith's sacrifice for the Planet.
But Cloud feels that same burden as a result of Zack's death, as a result of his current failings for his family. Aerith is the SYMBOL of his failings, not the whole of them.
Tifa's anguish, pain, frustration - that's not true love that was confessed under the Highwind. True love encompasses everything, and the pain should already not even be noted in the movie because they already understood each other 2 years before, no need for going around wandering. That's the logic.
BUT THAT'S ASININE! You have defined love in a way that doesn't exist! You want fairy tale love from story that is absolutely nothing like a fairy tale.
Just picking a few things out that interest me.
Yes, but sometimes a horse is a horse. This koibito thing has been dissected numerous times, been looked up, been asked to translators outside of the FF fandom. It's pretty much clear koibito has strong romantic connotations, and arguments otherwise have yet to show evidence that completely debunk it. The only one that seemed to get technical is the "koi bito" argument, which is pretty much a joke.
Ah, bito. Slang for 'hito' my ass. Compound construction, bitches.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean "elevated scale?" That she is a hugely significant character in Cloud's life. That she's probably the closest living person?
Excepting Mukki, of course.
She did plenty for Cloud, it was just that Cloud didn't do anything for himself right away. It was part of her anguish because he kept dragging his feet no matter who came to help him, but eventually everyone got through to him.
Look at the first discussion he had with Aerith, he didn't change his behavior. His turning point was his conversation with Vincent who said that he never tried to be forgiven, then after encouragement from Aerith, and a stern talking to from Tifa and Marlene, he finally did.
Cloud got through not just because of Aerith, although it was a huge part, but because of the people backing him. How could anyone miss his like, "Don't you get, there's nothing that isn't precious to me." Paraphrased, but you get the point. Everyone was there for him, and so he fights for everyone.
Yes, it was a group effort. Aerith played her part, everyone else did too.
I honestly don't understand what this is arguing. Tifa is not truly in love with Cloud?
If they were in love, all the pain and badness would just vanish. It is a juvenile and myopic view of love.
Really, I don't see him wandering again, or at least separate from the family. I see it as him doing his business again, which requires him driving a lot.
It IS him doing his business again. He says in Reminiscence 'I have one more delivery to make today,' before talking with Tifa about closing down and taking the day off tomorrow.
Even more so, there are strong implications that he stays with the family. For one, the pictures, showing a united front. Yes, Cloud is somewhat introverted and not as close, but it's pretty obvious it was to symbolize that they were together again.
Secondly, that ending was entirely retconned by AC/C. And AC/C is meant to more be a replacement than just an additive.
Hell, that 'ending' wasn't even in the original credits. Aerith watches Cloud drive by... and Cloud keeps on driving.
It not only implies that Cloud has kept the memories (of both Aerith and Zack) precious, but still memories). But it also shows without a doubt he's still with the family because you can hear clearly that he is with Denzel.
If nothing else, Cloud ships Zerith.
Cloud is pretty much definitively with his family. Personally, even though I side more with Cloti, I never had an issue with people thinking that FFVII was meant to be open ended (I myself arguing with myself whether I believe canon Cloti, and no canon pairing). But whether or not Cloud is happy with his family, or at least with them, is inarguable. In fact, it's pretty much canonized by word of god in the infamous quote CloudxAerith fans like to bring up (the one that says that there will always be problems, but Marlene and Denzel will always help them work it out between the two- problems aside, it means Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel are always together).
Also, the 'The happier he is' quote.
You're seriously over exaggerating the Cloud/Aerith implications in AU games. (Being Dissida/Kingdom Hearts/ Itadaki Street, Ergeiz, and Tactics). Let's get real and not even pretend Itadaki Street and Ergeiz have anything to do with romance whatsoever, otherwise we'll be embarrassing ourselves.
But Splintered, GUARDIAN AND SUMMONER! IT MEANSES SOMETHING!
Now let's focus on the games where creative persons from FFVII worked on (this leaves out Tactics because the team was completely different and so anything written in is not anything that can be tied to the creative team that created FFVII, or the relationship between Aerith or Cloud)
Not that it has much to say about it. If you look at what actually occurs, Cloud actually saves Aerith this time, then he's all hunky dory 'gotta go find mah sword, let's go guys' and Ramza's words imply Tifa waiting for him on the other side.
Which is really interesting if you assume his Ivalice jaunt (if 'twere canon) took place while he was all Ooga.
Kingdom Hearts, is at best, arguable. Especially since Cloud has strong ties to both girls in Final Fantasy. Dissidia doesn't have romance at all. It has continuity nods, and a field of flowers that represent his world. If it was meant to represent Aerith, it was meant to represent Aerith as part of the world, not as part of a relationship.
Unless you want to suggest Cecil and Golbez are bumping Uglies and Firi's getting it on with the entire rebellion.
