The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just had an idea, what got everyone here into the LTD.

I first came across it in a thread at GameFAQs. Ryu was in that discussion as well.

I don't remember exactly how long ago it was, but I believe it was before Advent Children came out, though it may have been after its production was announced.

Tifa bashing is still going strong though

That whore.

Oh, not that kind of bashing.

BTW has anyone ever pointed out that in the UO, in the story analysis, the part that is about the highwind scene that says Cloud and Tifa share feelings blah blah shows the High Affection scene? No if this or if that, and that's the story summery?...

Yeah, I pointed it out a few times.

And yet, it's Cloud's lines that change first in that scene, and significantly. Tifa isn't the only one that changes in the low affection scene.

In fairness, his lines changing may have more to do with how he thinks she's going to receive them. What we know, though, is that it's Tifa's feelings that have been identified as the fluctuating value in that scene -- though she obviously loves him in both and just fails to get it out in one version.

 

[minimosey]

If her lines don't change at all before his do, and her feelings for him haven't changed at all, why would his lines change because he thinks she'll take them differently?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Because it's about how she's acted during the entire game, not just that scene.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I never thought it was the intended couple as in "this is the RIGHT one", but I thought it was intended as a valid choice. The game allows you to have Cloud express affection for Aerith and avoid romancing Tifa. Nothing about the ending or story or Cloud's character growth gets screwed up by saying "he fell in love with Aerith", or "he loves Tifa platonically"; you aren't punished for getting the low affection scene with Tifa under the Highwind. Obviously the Compilation afterward chooses a run of the game where he kept his romantic feelings for Tifa and went through the high affection scene, but it's only natural that when you have a situation like VII, where the main character's relationships can be affected by the player like that, one run would have to be chosen and others discarded. And, frankly, it's better Cloud/Tifa was pursued rather than Cloud/Aerith; I imagine that would have made things awkward for writing Tifa into scenarios, and she's a good character. (Even though I preferred Aerith, I'm not sure I ever have gotten the low affection scene for Tifa.)

My first LTD was over on gamefaqs, before AC came out. I was just annoyed that some of the people took the stance that Cloud/Tifa was the only reasonable possibility and Cloud/Aerith was a stupid pairing. ...And I'm sure I annoyed some of the people arguing for Cloud/Aerith because I took exception to their arguments (one being that Cait Sith's fortunes had anything to do with anyone's compatibility). I came to this one because sometimes it seems like the only active discussion related to VII here.

Well, in a very simple practical sense, it IS the only reasonable possibility, just as Edward/Anna, despite being Canon, is quite unreasonable.
I also disagree that we DO get to choose who he likes. We get to play with how other people view Cloud through our actions, but we have no choice in Cloud beyond his time as a Cypher. That's a big part of the shell game plot.

Tifa bashing is still going strong though

I believe the hypothesis re: Tifa bashing and Cleriths that engage in it has been expounded before, so I won't repeat it here.

On the other hand, Vendel and his youtube antics come up quite a bit

This does not surprise me. He is the largest active thorn in their side.

BTW has anyone ever pointed out that in the UO, in the story analysis, the part that is about the highwind scene that says Cloud and Tifa share feelings blah blah shows the High Affection scene? No if this or if that, and that's the story summery?...

Yes. The common response has been to harp on the few times it discusses 'if the affection value is high' and act as though the 'if' means there can be no canon outcome.

Pre-Cloud becoming himself again, you could take the stance that he was falling for Aerith if you wanted. However the lifestream event is where Cloud's feelings are revealed, both current and past. Don't forget the low version of the highwind scene is about whether Tifa reveals hers. By that point we already know Cloud is still in love with her.

Paraphrasing from the Ultimanias, the Lifestream is where Feelings are expressed/unveiled, the Highwind is where they are confirmed.

And yet, it's Cloud's lines that change first in that scene, and significantly. Tifa isn't the only one that changes in the low affection scene.

Cloud's changed lines flow from changed lines Tifa speaks. She speaks a bit more, he responds to what she says. Tifa, and her AV, are the catalyst for Cloud's words, not Cloud's emotions, which are already there. It's his nerve that's affected, not his feelings.

His line changes, his feelings don't. The scene is contingent on Tifa's affection for Cloud and only that. Imagine you have a massive crush on someone and they hint that they return those feelings. Conversation 1. You have a massive crush on someone that seems distant and doesn't return those feelings. Conversation 2. Does it mean you stopped crushing? No, it means you pussied out. Way to go, Cloud.

The majority of Cloud's issues can be summed up as 'Did you pussy out, YES/NO?' with the response 'Way to go, Cloud' with sarcasm added as appropriate.

Also **glomps thread** Hope everyone that celebrates it had a good Thanksgiving.

Wasn't terrible.

I first came across it in a thread at GameFAQs. Ryu was in that discussion as well.

Ditto Gamefaqs.

I don't remember exactly how long ago it was, but I believe it was before Advent Children came out, though it may have been after its production was announced.

At least a good 6 years now.
In related topics, I do recall exulting at the announcement of AC since it actually ended the 'did humanity survive' argument and rather shut up the 'they were all wiped out' crowd.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If her lines don't change at all before his do, and her feelings for him haven't changed at all, why would his lines change because he thinks she'll take them differently?

Her lines do change before his. Not much, but it's enough to change the flow of the conversation, enough to stoke Cloud's confidence.

 

[minimosey]

]Cloud's changed lines flow from changed lines Tifa speaks. She speaks a bit more, he responds to what she says.

There aren't added or changed lines for Tifa before Cloud's lines change. I'm looking at yinza's script for the two scenarios right now. Unless there's an error in them or something?

 

[Zee]

Tifa bashing is still going strong though

People are allowed to not like a character, though.

This does not surprise me. He is the largest active thorn in their side.

feedin' into vendel's fantasy of mattering at all on the internet

a+ would lol again

 

[Tifabelle]

I just had an idea, what got everyone here into the LTD.

I learned it like 2-3 years ago. I didn't even know what a clerith or a cloti was, let alone realizing I was one of them. For years, I thought Cloud & Tifa were obvious. In the conversations, at first I was like, "Let cleriths like who they want. Who cares?" Then I realized people believed Cloud/Aerith was canon and were furiously fighting about it (with some backwards logic), and I was like

And that's my story.

 

[Tifabelle]

People are allowed to not like a character, though.

Disliking a character based on individual merit is one thing. But that's not really why they hate Tifa, now is it?

 

[Zee]

Disliking a character based on individual merit is one thing. But that's not really why they hate Tifa, now is it?

Depends. There's always going to be Cleris fans that hate Tifa just because she's the "other woman" just as Clotis dislike Aeris for similar reasons (because this idiotic war was always about Tifa vs. Aeris, and Cloud has never been anything more than a consolation prize for the favored heroine).

But there are people out there who just legitimately dislike aspects of her character. Either way I don't see how it matters.

 

[Tifabelle]

Depends. There's always going to be Cleris fans that hate Tifa just because she's the "other woman" just as Clotis dislike Aeris for similar reasons

Few and far between. Personally, I haven't come across an Aerith-hating Cloti, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There's no thread dedicated to hating her that I know of.

(because this idiotic war was always about Tifa vs. Aeris, and Cloud has never been anything more than a consolation prize for the favored heroine).

Worst. prize. ever. Tifa & Aerith should just walk off into the sunset together.

Also, I don't think it's about Tifa v. Aerith so much as it is reality v. fantasy.

But there are people out there who just legitimately dislike aspects of her character. Either way I don't see how it matters.

People can hate whoever they want. There are plenty of characters I hate. And it doesn't matter because everyone will have their opinion. But then others reserve the right to disagree with that opinion, and request legitimate reasoning. Using reasoning that portrays the character OUT OF CHARACTER is not a good reason to hate a character. It makes no sense.

 

[Zee]

Few and far between. Personally, I haven't come across an Aerith-hating Cloti, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There's no thread dedicated to hating her that I know of.

Oh, it exists alright. Not to mention the constant shitting on her character, because if Tifa looks better in comparison, Cloud must love her more!

Worst. prize. ever. Tifa & Aerith should just walk off into the sunset together.

Seriously

Also, I don't think it's about Tifa v. Aerith so much as it is reality v. fantasy.

Are you talking about the pairings or the way people debate for them?

Using reasoning that portrays the character OUT OF CHARACTER is not a good reason to hate a character. It makes no sense.

This is a weird statement just because I feel like I fan will always have an alternate character interpretation to someone who dislikes a character.

Just as an example, a character may be seen as a tough, independent survivor to a fan and a horrible, insufferable bitch to someone else. It's all subjective.

I mean I get what you're saying about the OOC thing -- we did have that whole discussion about Aeris being a tard who runs into danger vs. someone who was taking a necessary risk, but we all know how that ended up.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's a thread on their forum and no one has to look at it.

 

[Tifabelle]

Oh, it exists alright. Not to mention the constant shitting on her character, because if Tifa looks better in comparison, Cloud must love her more!

Saying something bad about Aerith doesn't mean you hate her. I think Tifa-hate is more prevalent bc she is the one that actually ends up with Cloud, and has been more "in your face" as time goes on. I'll give you that it's probably more cloti-hate than Tifa-hate, but Tifa takes the brunt of it, lol.

Still, I have to say I really don't see much hate for Aerith. Certainly not to the degree of Tifa. There's, like, some serious genuine hate for her as if she were real. It's seems almost personal. Creepy.

Are you talking about the pairings or the way people debate for them?

I just don't think it's "Who is the better character? That is the one Cloud loves." It's kind of both the type of pairing, but also the general arguments. Cloti arguments (imo) tend to be more logical and based in fact and story structure. Clerith arguments are a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" and "interpretations".

Just as an example, a character may be seen as a tough, independent survivor to a fan and a horrible, insufferable bitch to someone else. It's all subjective.

One may think she's great, another thinks she's a bitch. But it doesn't change her personality. You can think a character's a bitch or w/e and not have to change her personality and what she says/does to fit into your perspective.

I mean I get what you're saying about the OOC thing -- we did have that whole discussion about Aeris being a tard who runs into danger vs. someone who was taking a necessary risk, but we all know how that ended up.

I will say that sometimes the argument of the individual is percieved as the argument of the group. It happens both ways. I've done it too. I won't get back into that conversation, but suffice it to say that I still like Aerith whether she's brave or a dumb-ass.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's a thread on their forum and no one has to look at it.

But it's outside of that forum. I see it elsewhere. And how many times have people said, "Tifa fans only like her for her boobs." I have my own glorious breasts, thankyouverymuch. Don't get me wrong, I don't take it personally. I either ignore it or make a joke.

 

[Ryushikaze]

There aren't added or changed lines for Tifa before Cloud's lines change. I'm looking at yinza's script for the two scenarios right now. Unless there's an error in them or something?

Yinza's is in error. The first divergence in the script is in Tifa's lines.
Specifically, when she notes things will be all right if they are together, and when she says 'we're close now, but were far before'

People are allowed to not like a character, though.

Yes, but making things up whole cloth to not like them is another thing.

feedin' into vendel's fantasy of mattering at all on the internet

a+ would lol again

Is he or is he not a constant irritant to CxA denizens?

Depends. There's always going to be Cleris fans that hate Tifa just because she's the "other woman" just as Clotis dislike Aeris for similar reasons (because this idiotic war was always about Tifa vs. Aeris, and Cloud has never been anything more than a consolation prize for the favored heroine).

Not for everyone, Missy. There's a goddamn reason I try and remind people there is one and only one salient question in this matter.

But there are people out there who just legitimately dislike aspects of her character. Either way I don't see how it matters.

Generally because it gets into the standard hypothesis of why they actually hate her character, as reading those threads ping all the standard checkboxes of projection.

Oh, it exists alright. Not to mention the constant shitting on her character, because if Tifa looks better in comparison, Cloud must love her more!

Seriously

Are you talking about the pairings or the way people debate for them?

This is a weird statement just because I feel like I fan will always have an alternate character interpretation to someone who dislikes a character.

Just as an example, a character may be seen as a tough, independent survivor to a fan and a horrible, insufferable bitch to someone else. It's all subjective.

But MAKING SHIT UP is not.

I mean I get what you're saying about the OOC thing -- we did have that whole discussion about Aeris being a tard who runs into danger vs. someone who was taking a necessary risk, but we all know how that ended up.

Going wasn't the bad idea. Confirming your position with the compromised party member- who you really should have known was compromised- was a bad idea.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's a thread on their forum and no one has to look at it.

No, but it is useful in forming an understanding of the basic character of the forum, no?

But it's outside of that forum. I see it elsewhere. And how many times have people said, "Tifa fans only like her for her boobs." I have my own glorious breasts, thankyouverymuch. Don't get me wrong, I don't take it personally. I either ignore it or make a joke.

The most hilarious instance of this for me, bar none, was Angelalex, who made the accusation while sporting a- and I do not use this word lightly- tittilicious avatar of Aerith. The irony of it all seemed to escape him completely.
Also, as per internet statute 472923586-397.0005b60-pagedown, Pics or it's not true.

Or wait, was that the one about the crocodile?

 

[Dashell]

But it's outside of that forum. I see it elsewhere. And how many times have people said, "Tifa fans only like her for her boobs." I have my own glorious breasts, thankyouverymuch. Don't get me wrong, I don't take it personally. I either ignore it or make a joke.

Pics or it didn't happen

EDIT
err NM Ryu beat me to it

Yes. The common response has been to harp on the few times it discusses 'if the affection value is high' and act as though the 'if' means there can be no canon outcome.

Really? You'd think they'd mention that all the images of the date scene are of Aerith's date
Okay, their loss.

 

[Zee]

Still, I have to say I really don't see much hate for Aerith. Certainly not to the degree of Tifa. There's, like, some serious genuine hate for her as if she were real. It's seems almost personal. Creepy.

Both girls get pretty equal hate treatment. Tifa is actually the more liked of the two because she's a chick who knows martial arts, while I have actually heard people comparing Aeris to a doormat because she wears pink. wat

I just don't think it's "Who is the better character? That is the one Cloud loves." It's kind of both the type of pairing, but also the general arguments. Cloti arguments (imo) tend to be more logical and based in fact and story structure. Clerith arguments are a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" and "interpretations".

I've heard ridiculous argument from both sides, so I don't find it to be something specific to the Cleris fandom. There's plenty of Cleris arguments that are just as grounded in logic and story structure -- it's only when you get people moving beyond the events of FF7 into spirit!lovin' that it gets dodgy. Unfortunately, the saner part of the fandom is more laid back and quiet, so it comes off like more of the fandom leans towards AngelAlex types when that's not the case.

But to be frank, yeah man, 90% of this shit spirals down into Tifa vs. Aeris dick waving contest. Did you miss the argument over who was the more tragic heroine? Yeeesh.

No, but it is useful in forming an understanding of the basic character of the forum, no?

There's tons of other sections and the bashing forums are some of the least active, so no.

But MAKING SHIT UP is not.

MY CAPSLOCK IS LOUD

also what

 

[Madame Mayor]

I think it's more interesting to watch the pretending to like Tifa while saying something retarded like "I like how weak she is." lolwut Because they KNOW most of the Tifa hate is based on nothing but the ship war. So they want to act above the rest and fail miserably.

 

[Celes Chere]

also no one there really gives a shit about tls anymore.

Good riddance! I remember being linked there when they were bashing the audio books.
"Omg why would you waste time doing that like, we don't NEED an audiobook"
HerpDerp.

I like reading the Tifa bashing section for fun, sometimes. Because the reasons for hating Tifa are absolutely HILARIOUS. And it's fun seeing people so butthurt over her being in Dissidia. xD However, it's their club and well they have a right to hating Tifa so... I don't expect positive things going into it. On the other hand, I never thought I'd see such farfetched reasons for hating Tifa either... <XD

*OMG TIFA IS JUST A SEX SYMBOL AND HER FANS ARE PERVERTED

Okay, so we're perverted. But fuck you. XD
But really, I like when the fans are attacked like that, saying that Aerith fans have more DIGNITY. Oh my rofl.

"I like how weak she is."

Yeah this. Tifa apparently has nothing on Aerith, who can summon acid rain from beyond the grave. I think both girls played their parts, and did what they had to do. Tifa's always been a fighter, and Aerith has not. It makes no difference that BOTH girls are not weak. I think Aerith is strong in a different way.

 

[Tifabelle]

Yes, but making things up whole cloth to not like them is another thing.


Generally because it gets into the standard hypothesis of why they actually hate her character, as reading those threads ping all the standard checkboxes of projection.


But MAKING SHIT UP is not.

^these things.

Also, as per internet statute 472923586-397.0005b60-pagedown, Pics or it's not true.

I'd rather you think I was a boy

My image would break the internet

Both girls get pretty equal hate treatment. Tifa is actually the more liked of the two because she's a chick who knows martial arts, while I have actually heard people comparing Aeris to a doormat because she wears pink. wat

Quanity-wise, Tifa may have more fans. But the quality of hate for her is much stronger.

Unfortunately, the saner part of the fandom is more laid back and quiet,

That's cause the saner cleriths knows cloti is canon

But yes, it's true. The psychos tend to be louder than everyone else. That's true irl as well.

But to be frank, yeah man, 90% of this shit spirals down into Tifa vs. Aeris dick waving contest. Did you miss the argument over who was the more tragic heroine? Yeeesh.

Did I? Sounds like a good one *eyeroll*

There's tons of other sections and the bashing forums are some of the least active, so no.

That's cause it's spread out on all the other threads.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Pics or it didn't happen

EDIT
err NM Ryu beat me to it

I'm sure yours was more heartfelt, though.

Really? You'd think they'd mention that all the images of the date scene are of Aerith's date
Okay, their loss.

Not all of them. Which is one of the reasons why I hold that All the dates happen sequentially, if not in their totality. It's simpler than parsing which of them must have happened.

Both girls get pretty equal hate treatment. Tifa is actually the more liked of the two because she's a chick who knows martial arts, while I have actually heard people comparing Aeris to a doormat because she wears pink. wat

That I have not seen.

I've heard ridiculous argument from both sides, so I don't find it to be something specific to the Cleris fandom. There's plenty of Cleris arguments that are just as grounded in logic and story structure -- it's only when you get people moving beyond the events of FF7 into spirit!lovin' that it gets dodgy. Unfortunately, the saner part of the fandom is more laid back and quiet, so it comes off like more of the fandom leans towards AngelAlex types when that's not the case.

I don't think the fandom leans towards AA types. Just the crazies, which there seem to be more of on the C/A side because they're more vocal and off the wall.

But to be frank, yeah man, 90% of this shit spirals down into Tifa vs. Aeris dick waving contest. Did you miss the argument over who was the more tragic heroine? Yeeesh.

I still find that interesting only because I'm curious about how Aerith actually thought about her time with ShinRa and whether she realized it was horrible, a la the allegory of the cave.
Both women's lives sucked. So did Cloud's. So did Vincent's. So did Barret's. Red's sucked a bit less. Cid, Reeve, and Yuffie are living the sweet life by comparison.
Didn't that whole bruhaha spiral out of how tough life on the Slums actually was, since it seemed that life in Midgar slums was still a lot better than life several other places?

There's tons of other sections and the bashing forums are some of the least active, so no.

I never said it was the be all end all. Just useful. Especially, active or not, it's not something they don't want non members to see. That which is hidden by a people is often just as if not more important than what they expose.

MY CAPSLOCK IS LOUD

also what

IT IS NOT LOUD ENOUGH, MY HAWKMEN![/Brian Blessed]

Making shit up. Reasons are invented whole cloth to justify a dislike, to cloak it in a false air of legitimacy.
A common one is that Tifa is sleeping with everyone.
Encountered that one no more than a month ago. The person then tried to use the 'opinion' defense while using it to make judgements based on it. Horribly horribly intellectually dishonest.

Of course, inventing reasons to like someone is equally bad from an intellectual honesty standpoint.

^these things.

Welcome.

I'd rather you think I was a boy

My image would break the internet

The internet didn't die when Goatse was around, and there's no way you're worse. And we have a thread devoted to such in general.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

MY CAPSLOCK IS LOUD

also what

[Insert lyrics to "Another Day" here]

Also, who here needs convincing that making shit up in a debate is not okay anyway?

I'd rather you think I was a boy

My image would break the internet

Well, now that you've let the cat out of the bag, again, pics or it didn't happen.



Anyway, here's my interpretation of things: Main topic (which isn't the LTD any longer) is still going in circles.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I think it's more interesting to watch the pretending to like Tifa while saying something retarded like "I like how weak she is." lolwut Because they KNOW most of the Tifa hate is based on nothing but the ship war. So they want to act above the rest and fail miserably.

this is true of any fandom with any girl. Not so much liking how terrible a character is perceived so much as this character would be TOTALLY AWESOME if she just wasn't dumb/weak/pathetic/what have you. Hell, there are tons of characters who are hated on for liking whatever character it is they like, Tifa included.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, so we're perverted. But fuck you. XD

WIN XD

Also I hate how Square says "Tifa is not clingy" and they go "YES SHE IS!"... there was a Dissidia thing recently that came out that said Tifa was optimistic and they just went on and on and on about how she wasn't. Didn't even Cloud say she was?...

On the flip side I still remember running into this one guy who said Tifa had every right to hate Aerith because she was moving in on her man and was a slut and all this stuff.

Not all of them.

I'm looking at it right now and as far as I can tell, yeah they are all of Aerith's date. Which one isn't? Is it the play one? It's kinda small in the scan I have so maybe I'm not seeing it right.

well here's the images:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9412/dates01.jpg
The middle pic, I honestly can't tell who that is XD

And the second.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8536/dates02.jpg

 

[Ryushikaze]

WIN XD

Also I hate how Square says "Tifa is not clingy" and they go "YES SHE IS!"... there was a Dissidia thing recently that came out that said Tifa was optimistic and they just went on and on and on about how she wasn't. Didn't even Cloud say she was?...

On the flip side I still remember running into this one guy who said Tifa had every right to hate Aerith because she was moving in on her man and was a slut and all this stuff.

So, completely misunderstood everything, then?

I'm looking at it right now and as far as I can tell, yeah they are all of Aerith's date. Which one isn't? Is it the play one? It's kinda small in the scan I have so maybe I'm not seeing it right.

well here's the images:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9412/dates01.jpg
The middle pic, I honestly can't tell who that is XD

And the second.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8536/dates02.jpg

Oh, you meant in that one section. Yeah, the pics they use THERE are of the Aerith date, I think. The problem is, Tifa's date is in her Timeline. Tifa's date is in Cloud's U10 profile.
There's the section about the breakdown of all four dates in the UO, etc. etc. etc.
The proponderance of the evidence here is... confusing, but the general consensus of them seems to be 'It doesn't quite matter.'

Also, the Fanfic.net discussion got interesting recently.

 

[Winter]

EDIT: wow when I posted this I was reading like last page, i must not have refreshed it from last night. LEAVING THIS POST HERE ANYWAYS, PRETEND I POSTED THIS LIKE.... 20 HOURS AGO

we created a private section to bitch about stuff like that because the c/t shippers were constantly stalking our threads and discussing them (sort of like you're doing now, only with more spite and stalking).

we got tired of taking shit from faith and we made it private.

who are you and why the dicks do you care, anyways?