The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Raquelborn]

just because Tifa's his light doesn't mean he's fucking her, or that he wasn't looking for Aeris in KH.

herpa derp

He was looking for Sephiroth in KH.

Otherwise, no, not at all. But it's been pressed heavily on some of us in debate that being someone's light in Kingdom Hearts = romantic interest. Therefore the idea that Cloud is trying to find Aerith/Aerith is his light in both games is also heavily pushed. The point that has to be made is that Tifa is the one who embodies his light and so if the first argument is even correct, if anything, KH2 is saying Tifa is the love interest and not Aerith.

Really Tifa is just his light, though.

 

[Celes Chere]

he wasn't looking for Aeris in KH.

I agree. But seriously, Cloud found Aerith, and then continued searching for someone after he found her. Why is he still searching if he's supposedly looking for Aerith?

 

[Winter]

I think it's just Nomura trying to be ~deep~ or ~complex~ or something which Cloud's story in KHII, when the first game on its own is pretty fucking straightforward.

The same could be said for the entirety of KHII's story.

Regardless, there's suspicion or whatthefuckever that only Sora can see Tifa or she's dead or something. Honestly, her "being Cloud's light" does not make her his love interest. Cloud's story was so complicated it's just not even like that.

I honestly kinda hate KH Tifa, and I think Advent Children is more romantic than KHII, and you all know I think AC is devoid of any C/T romance.

 

[Tennyo]

It doesn't matter what Nomura is doing. People still try to claim Cloud was searching for Aerith and that she is his light therefore case closed LTD solved he will remain celibate and chaste for the rest of his life over a girl he knew for two weeks in the original game. :/

None of these statements are even true, but it doesn't stop people from believing them.

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't really like what they did to any of the FF characters in Kingdom Hearts. (Oh, Seifer. What happened to you?!) That's besides the point I was trying to make, lol. Cloud isn't searching for Aerith, and he isn't searching for Tifa either. I find the fact that Tifa is Cloud's light to be highly significant. I mean, there is a reason why she's his light and not Aerith, right? If Aerith were Cloud's light, you can't say you'd wouldn't be all over that. <XD

 

[Vendel]

Cloud's story was so complicated it's just not even like that.

Complicated? KH Cloud?

Seems pretty straight forward to me. I think it's people (cleriths mostly) trying to insert their meaning into it that has caused the complication.

I honestly kinda hate KH Tifa, and I think Advent Children is more romantic than KHII, and you all know I think AC is devoid of any C/T romance.

Please, please don't tell me you think there is C/A romance in AC.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Seems pretty straight forward to me. I think it's people (cleriths mostly) trying to insert their meaning into it that has caused the complication.

Ya, with all the inner/outer light crap.

Honestly, her "being Cloud's light" does not make her his love interest.

It's not about them being romantic love interests in the Kingdom Hearts universe. It is significant that for his darkness they chose Sephiroth, and for his light they chose Tifa, two people who are very important to him in different ways that relate to who/what they represent in KH.

 

[Fighter]

The "light" thing stopped being romantic after Tifa appeared. As if the sudden change of tune fooled anyone.

 

[looneymoon]

Cloud's KH story is unnecessarily vague. Much like most of KH actually...

I actually really hate KH Cloud :\ The other characters aren't so bad, but Cloud just comes off as a giant asshole.

 

[Splintered]

Cloud's KH story is unnecessarily vague. Much like most of KH actually...

I actually really hate KH Cloud :\ The other characters aren't so bad, but Cloud just comes off as a giant asshole.

I was just thinking that.

It's not that it's complex, it's just unnecessarily convoluted.

KH he was searching, and he's probably searching for the "light", then he meets Aerith so she's probably the light, so is "light" romantic?, oh wait- Sephiroth's here maybe he's searching for him, but what about the "can't find the light" thing? KHII comes around and Cloud's doesn't care about the light despite the previous game's monologue, he doesn't have the light and he met Aerith so she can't be considered the light I guess, Nomura says he's running away from something "warm", so he's running away but in reality he's searching for Sephiroth, oh hey it's Tifa- wait she's giving him light, wait, she's not suppose to be real?, so light is not romantic, huh

WHY DOESN'T THIS SHIT MAKE SENSE!?

Oh wait, lol, it's Kingdom Hearts, none of it makes sense. Carry on.

With the original game, I had no problem with thinking that it was leaning towards C/A. I don't think anybody could blame anyone for thinking it was Clerith. It's just that later games sunk the many theories that came out.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well, Mickey is apparently Riku's light, or at least he has given Riku light.

So everyone who thinks light=romance can chew on that.

 

[Vendel]

Ya, with all the inner/outer light crap.

The "light" thing stopped being romantic after Tifa appeared. As if the sudden change of tune fooled anyone.

I remember reading some archives of a Clerith discussion about KHII. They were squeeing themselves that C/A had a scene together. Then it became translated and Aerith mentions "when you find your light it will lead you back here". The one response I will always remember is someone who was rather confused stating "She's right there!".

This is when the inner/outer crap started.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Well, Mickey is apparently Riku's light, or at least he has given Riku light.

So everyone who thinks light=romance can chew on that.

Excuse me while I go throw up.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I was just thinking that.

It's not that it's complex, it's just unnecessarily convoluted.

KH he was searching, and he's probably searching for the "light", then he meets Aerith so she's probably the light, so is "light" romantic?, oh wait- Sephiroth's here maybe he's searching for him, but what about the "can't find the light" thing?

'I'm looking for someone and I used the power of darkness to try and find them, now I can't find the light' does not imply the person he was looking for was the light at all. Why use the power of darkness to find someone who is your light?

KHII comes around and Cloud's doesn't care about the light despite the previous game's monologue, he doesn't have the light and he met Aerith so she can't be considered the light I guess, Nomura says he's running away from something "warm", so he's running away but in reality he's searching for Sephiroth, oh hey it's Tifa- wait she's giving him light, wait, she's not suppose to be real?, so light is not romantic, huh

WHY DOESN'T THIS SHIT MAKE SENSE!?

She may or may not be real.
And the light is never inherently romantic. It can show up in romantic partners, but doesn't have to.
The reason KH2 is hilarious isn't because it 'means' Tifa is Cloud's romantic partner BECAUSE she's his light, it's hilarious BECAUSE THE ARGUMENT USED TO BE THAT YOUR LIGHT WAS YOUR ROMANTIC PARTNER.
Seriously, though, it's not vague or confusing, unless you let your own assumptions continue to confuse you.

Oh wait, lol, it's Kingdom Hearts, none of it makes sense. Carry on.

Now now. No need to take a defeatist attitude. It might make sense eventually.

With the original game, I had no problem with thinking that it was leaning towards C/A. I don't think anybody could blame anyone for thinking it was Clerith. It's just that later games sunk the many theories that came out.

But even in KH you have to make so many assumptions you might as well have gone with Leon/Aerith.

 

[Tennyo]

Well, Mickey is apparently Riku's light, or at least he has given Riku light.

So everyone who thinks light=romance can chew on that.

But I ship Miku.

IT'S TOTES CANON!!!!!!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

'I'm looking for someone and I used the power of darkness to try and find them, now I can't find the light' does not imply the person he was looking for was the light at all.

True, it doesn't. However, the rest of the exchange implies that he is looking for both his light and his darkness:

Sora: You&#8217;ll find it. I&#8217;m searching, too.

Cloud: For your light?

Why would Cloud immediately conclude that Sora is looking for his own personal light when he said "I'm searching too" if that isn't what Cloud was doing?

We know from KH: Final Mix that Cloud was looking for Sephiroth (his darkness) and if he was also searching for his personal light, then -- though he was searching for Seph -- he must have been looking for someone else in addition to Seph.

And if he was doing that, then the light he was seeking probably was Aerith -- or at the very least was intended to be at the time of the original game's development -- since he was actively fleeing from Tifa in KHII.

Ya, with all the inner/outer light crap.

I remember reading some archives of a Clerith discussion about KHII. They were squeeing themselves that C/A had a scene together. Then it became translated and Aerith mentions "when you find your light it will lead you back here". The one response I will always remember is someone who was rather confused stating "She's right there!".

This is when the inner/outer crap started.

Honestly, I think the concept of an inner and outer light makes a lot of sense. I think we will all agree that an individual should have a light within them, and that in Cloud's case, that light manifested as Tifa, just as his darkness manifested as Sephiroth.

In both cases, these people were not "real" in the traditional sense -- that is to say, they were not separate individuals from Cloud, born naturally the same way that he was. More to the point, they were not born the same way that Kairi was born separately from Sora, for whom she is light.

It only, then, makes sense that a person can have an inner light (something that is a reflection of that individual) and an outer light (a person of significance to them).

I grant you that my interpretation on this is slightly informed by my belief that Cloud was searching for both his light and his darkness in the original KH, but I think it's the logical conclusion to make from a consistent, inclusive analysis of everything in the equation. I'm concluding that back then he was searching for his inner darkness while searching for his outer light.

Why use the power of darkness to find someone who is your light?

Ask Riku.

just because Tifa's his light doesn't mean he's fucking her, or that he wasn't looking for Aeris in KH.

Both of these statements are true, but where the actual distortion comes in to play is that certain people insist that if Cloud isn't fucking Tifa in KH he's not fucking her in an alternate universe (FFVII's) either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're wrong. Your supposition about him looking for his light is just supposition. The whole assertion of an inner and outer light is FF_Goddess nonsense, and its not supported by any tangible fact from the story. If it were, it would've been said.

 

[ForceStealer]

I know this is simplistic...but I find it annoying that the only reason Cloud would search for a dear friend that was taken from him is that he wants to fuck her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

True, it doesn't. However, the rest of the exchange implies that he is looking for both his light and his darkness:

Why would Cloud immediately conclude that Sora is looking for his own personal light when he said "I'm searching too" if that isn't what Cloud was doing?

Well, it's obvious from his context, actually. Cloud doesn't have to be actively searching, since the subject was just how he'd lost sight of the light while using the darkness.
Cloud can realize Sora is speaking of light and searching for it even if he's not searching himself. In fact, Sora makes no indication that the light he's searching for is a person, so Cloud COULD be searching for 'The light' in general even if he's searching for it. The entire discussion is phrased in the generic, impersonal 'it' terms.

We know from KH: Final Mix that Cloud was looking for Sephiroth (his darkness) and if he was also searching for his personal light, then -- though he was searching for Seph -- he must have been looking for someone else in addition to Seph.

Key word, IF.

And if he was doing that, then the light he was seeking probably was Aerith -- or at the very least was intended to be at the time of the original game's development -- since he was actively fleeing from Tifa in KHII.

Or it might have simply been 'the light' since even in the first game there are examples of lights not held in other people.

Honestly, I think the concept of an inner and outer light makes a lot of sense. I think we will all agree that an individual should have a light within them, and that in Cloud's case, that light manifested as Tifa, just as his darkness manifested as Sephiroth.

I hold a somewhat different theory, but it's more about manifesting light in other people, and is currently being revised to include the Light is Hope idea of BBS.

In both cases, these people were not "real" in the traditional sense -- that is to say, they were not separate individuals from Cloud, born naturally the same way that he was. More to the point, they were not born the same way that Kairi was born separately from Sora, for whom she is light.

It only, then, makes sense that a person can have an inner light (something that is a reflection of that individual) and an outer light (a person of significance to them).

I grant you that my interpretation on this is slightly informed by my belief that Cloud was searching for both his light and his darkness in the original KH, but I think it's the logical conclusion to make from a consistent, inclusive analysis of everything in the equation. I'm concluding that back then he was searching for his inner darkness while searching for his outer light.

I have the idea that there IS no distinction between inner and outer light, that 'external lights' are people who embody or represent a person's own light. Keepers, as it were, not distinct from the original light.

Ask Riku.

He kind of knew where everyone was to begin with. His issue was like Cecil, finding his own internal light, to find his twilight balance.

Both of these statements are true, but where the actual distortion comes in to play is that certain people insist that if Cloud isn't fucking Tifa in KH he's not fucking her in an alternate universe (FFVII's) either.

Because FFVII is beholden to KH? Technically, their similarities are purely at will. KH Cloud, and all other KH FF chars, have a completely different history than their original counterparts, and are only cursorily the same character as a result.

 

[Splintered]

Well, it's obvious from his context, actually. Cloud doesn't have to be actively searching, since the subject was just how he'd lost sight of the light while using the darkness.
Cloud can realize Sora is speaking of light and searching for it even if he's not searching himself. In fact, Sora makes no indication that the light he's searching for is a person, so Cloud COULD be searching for 'The light' in general even if he's searching for it. The entire discussion is phrased in the generic, impersonal 'it' terms.

What matters is, whether he really was or not, KH clearly gives the impression that he's looking for his "light." The way that entire conversation was phrased around Sora, Cloud, and "light" made it very easy to infer what Cloud was searching for. That and there was an emphasis on Cloud meeting Aerith in the ending.

So Cloud=>looking for light => Finds Aerith at the end of his journey (This was not true, but at the time before KHII it seemed like this) =>Aerith was his light:: was just the logical choice. Fans don't need a glowing neon sign where everything needed confirmation. It just seemed to fit into place.

This is especially true because Sephiroth was only retconned into the story later in FM as a side boss. So people naturally wrote it off.

It's not until three years later does the franchise shit on all these theories. They completely dropped the light thing. It's obvious from II he's not looking for it, he was probably never looking for it, and he hasn't found it because his core behavior has not changed and Tifa had to offer him her light to keep him from sinking. And what would be the point of him searching for his light when at the same time, he's running away from something "warm." They're not the same but that's still pretty fucking counter intuitive.

Now we got to assume that Cloud was looking for Sephiroth instead, the same way we assumed he was looking for his light.

The whole "embodiment thing" is really a non issue. You can argue about internal and external light, but the whole thing smells of "I've-been-in-the-fandom-too-long-and-I-can't-tell-bullshit-theories-from-reality."

Nomura wrote in Tifa, thought it would be cool to generate some discussion and later made her an ambiguous entity, not really thinking about the mythology and continuity. The result gave him exactly what he wanted, fans going crazy and making up random shit that probably has no significance so that we can all argue and bitch about it five years later. The man is a troll master.

 

[Madame Mayor]

So Cloud=>looking for light => Finds Aerith at the end of his journey (This was not true, but at the time before KHII it seemed like this) =>Aerith was his light:: was just the logical choice. Fans don't need a glowing neon sign where everything needed confirmation. It just seemed to fit into place.

I really wish I understood why people think their two second 'hey whats up' in the credits is that important. Cloud comes back, Aerith walks up to him to greet him.

Is it really that strange to people that out of all the FF characters, Aerith would want to walk right up to Cloud as soon as she sees him? This is strange and special she must be his light? The rest of the credits are about people coming home to their loved ones, not big reveals like who the character was searching for the entire game.

This is especially true because Sephiroth was only retconned into the story later in FM as a side boss.

Sephy is a side boss in the original (maybe not the Japanese original), it's just Aerith's line about Cloud looking for him which is added... and honestly I think that was done because so many people thought she was the one Cloud was looking for and wanted to clear that up.

 

[Strangelove]

Sephy is a side boss in the original (maybe not the Japanese original), it's just Aerith's line about Cloud looking for him which is added... and honestly I think that was done because so many people thought she was the one Cloud was looking for and wanted to clear that up.

Sephiroh isn't in the Japanese original, but was going to be. They made the model for him but cut it when they were short on time, then added him to the English version and then expanded on it with Final Mix.

 

[Splintered]

I really wish I understood why people think their two second 'hey whats up' in the credits is that important. Cloud comes back, Aerith walks up to him to greet him.

It seemed significant at that time. That's what I'm trying to get at, people going "LOL stupid ppls, how could they not see that!" when there was lots of indicators that there was something important going on.

It wasn't until three years later that this was shown not be the case. But it see it from there side, KH credits showed much of the subplots wrapping up their stories. Cloud goes on a journey to "find something" and the very last scene we see of him is in the credits, finding Aerith. So it's natural to assume that the end of his story is finding his way back to the group, and interacting with her.

That and it was a fairly emotive scene, because anyone who knows FFVII, knows Aerith's death and how it impacted Cloud. Even when there is no romance between them, that scene in of itself means something, even if only to the FFVII crowd.

 

[Madame Mayor]

But it see it from there side, KH credits showed much of the subplots wrapping up their stories. Cloud goes on a journey to "find something" and the very last scene we see of him is in the credits, finding Aerith.

No, I do get it from their side. But the fact is it's still projecting something onto that scene that wasn't intended, and that from a neutral perspective is obviously not there.

Too many people put way too much weight on those few seconds in the credits, is really the point I'm getting at. But SE saw their mistake and fixed it in FM.

Sephiroh isn't in the Japanese original, but was going to be. They made the model for him but cut it when they were short on time, then added him to the English version and then expanded on it with Final Mix.

That's what I thought, thanks.

 

[Ryushikaze]

From Cloud's tone, I never got that what he was trying to find by exploiting darkness was at all regarded as a good thing. I did figure, way back in the day, he was looking for Sephiroth- and the others were looking for him, not the other way around. Hence Cid's 'Lookit what I found' gesture at the end.

Cloud isn't showing finding anything. He's shown being presented- being FOUND.

Also, it didn't take 3 years for SE to make who Cloud was looking for more clear.