The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Zee]

The theme song for their hometown has nothing to do with them?

I recall it playing a lot more places then Cloud and Tifa's hometown. It's a "shit goes wrong" song, sure, but I actually liked the hopefulness of Aeris' theme in the original scene.

 

[ForceStealer]

By Aeris' theme you're referring to "Water," yes?

And I don't remember Anxious Heart playing elsewhere, but I could totally be wrong on that as I know game used songs all over the place. I just know it came back for Nibelheim in Crisis Core.

 

[Dana Scully]

Anxious Heart first plays in the train graveyard, which is pretty appropriate considering you're on your way to stop Sector 7 from getting blown to hell and gone, which would be rather worrisome.

 

[looneymoon]

AC/C is significantly worse than the typical video game movies. Even the worst game movie has some sort of directorial cohesiveness that it is recognizable as a film. If you're going to make a film that actually takes itself seriously, then treat it seriously by hiring someone that knows how to handle the medium. Most bad video game movies have some saving grace in having self awareness. As is, AC/C may have actually improved in quality if it more freely admitted what it is - a graphical piece of fan service. But instead, they wanted to tell a story without the necessary staff that would know how to actually present that story properly.

As for the music choice: I felt both choices were weird to be honest. The whole segment was awkward, really.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I actually never got any impression that Aeris healed anything at that part. This is the first I've heard of it. Cloud got up from his Geostigma attack up at Zack's grave, I imagined he would again. As for Tifa, well, as I suggested with that song, we all know sleeping heals all wounds

From a film directing perspective, the scene as presented in the original version of Advent Children heavily alluded to Aerith healing them, as 1) "Water" plays there, 2) they were laying on Aerith's flowerbed, from which water controlled by her later emerges, and 3) water controlled by her in the film has healing -- or at least anti-JENOVA -- properties.

I was actually quite blindsided by the Reunion Files clarifying that she didn't.

Fine, get a film school dropout. I'm sure you're not seriously suggesting that AC's nonsensical mess couldn't be vastly improved with some director savvy.

In fairness, null, Nomura had been the battle director (this includes summon animations) for FFVII and FFVIII, as well as the primary director for both KH I and II by the time the original AC came out. He wasn't exactly an amateur.

Were there major problems with the original AC to anyone with the sensibilities of a filmmaking background? Hellz to the yeah. But he wasn't an amateur, and his ability has certainly improved, as evidenced by ACC, if nothing else.

 

[Shadowfox]

When I saw that scene in AC, I did think that Aerith was present, but despite the water or the fact that she specialised in healing in the game, I never actually thought that she had healed them in the church. I thought that her involvement in the movie was more gradual, and she didn't actually step in and take an active part in the events until later.

I thought that that scene in the church only showed the point where she had finally become aware that things were going badly for her friends in the world of the living, and this was what prompted her to contacting Cloud as he was on his way to rescue the kids later.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Interesting insight there, Shadowfox. I can certainly see reading the scene that way. More so the ACC version though.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

The problem with video-game movies is that their structure is entirely different. Video games, as a rule, cannot be squeezed into the general three-act structure of movies. It just isn't possible, things are going to be left out. Not due to time constraints, but due to writing and plot flow. You couldn't make a movie about FF7 and have *all* the party's adventures to like, Corel and Rocket Town and Wutai, etc. You just can't, you'd have to abridge it. But even with the core plot elements - meet Aerith, escape Midgar, Nibelheim flashback, Temple of the Ancient, Forgotten City, North Crater, Weapon, Huge Materia, Midgar revisited, North Crater. See, even then, way too much to compress into one film. You could snip out the Weapon-Huge-Materia-Midgar revisisted stuff and have the final battle take place during the first visit to the crater, but it's still a lot to compress into one film and make it good.

A direct movie adaptation of a video game is thus impossible, because things will be left out or glanced over. However, this is not to say a good video game movie is impossible. What needs to happen is a video game movie that makes absolutely no attempt to condense the plot of its source material into that three-act format, because that's where the problems start. Instead, a good video game movie should be built from the ground up. To be blunt, disregard the plot of the original game in favor of making your own plot that stays true to the spirit of the original. You'll have more freedom to include or leave out characters and plot points, and can form a more cohesive story with good flow.

EDIT - How I'd do a FF7 movie, have Cloud still in AVALANCHE but Sephiroth in Shinra and Aerith being held in captivity as a test subject. First film would cover AVALANCHE fighting Shinra and rescuing Aerith from them, as well as Sephiroth's turn to madness leaving up to the Nibelheim incident and the battle in the reactor as the climax. Leave Sephy's return, the Black and White Materia and Aerith's death for a potential sequel, then just remake ACC better for a triology.

 

[Sigbru]

EDIT - How I'd do a FF7 movie, have Cloud still in AVALANCHE but Sephiroth in Shinra and Aerith being held in captivity as a test subject. First film would cover AVALANCHE fighting Shinra and rescuing Aerith from them, as well as Sephiroth's turn to madness leaving up to the Nibelheim incident and the battle in the reactor as the climax. Leave Sephy's return, the Black and White Materia and Aerith's death for a potential sequel, then just remake ACC better for a triology.

Those kinda of changes are also what make people hate videogame movies It's just impossible to please everyone. But ACC was just a short sequel, so it really doesn't fall in any of that

I could see a anime-esque FFVII adaption work. But game-to-anime adaption don't have a much better history

 

[Shadowfox]

I can certainly see reading the scene that way. More so the ACC version though.

I was glad at the way the scene was changed in ACC. I didn't like the idea of Aerith automatically being said to come in to heal them in the church because it felt like the dead woman was expected to step in and fix things in the world of the living like some spirit troubleshooter perpetually on call.

Let the living handle the problems of the living world. If the spirit of the last Cetra needs to involve herself in anything at all, it should be because it's something that living really, truly cannot handle on their own. Something that needs the power that only Aerith can call on. Tifa getting beaten up and unconscious, and Cloud passing out on the floor of the church, while not good things to happen, are not things that should require calling on Aerith's healing, IMO.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Those kinda of changes are also what make people hate videogame movies It's just impossible to please everyone.

Exactly, but what's the larger audience? The movie-going public in general, or the movie-going public that's played the game?

 

[Vendel]

Really? I was on ACF for a huge chunk of the earlier parts of the info, and I never heard of this before. There was a lot of "Cloud is living on his own" but never rivaled orphanages. I remember getting info about the orphanages and was actively involved in the LTD thread there, but I never encountered this argument. It couldn't have been widespread.

Well according to my research the idea of two separate groups of orphans has been around since late 2004.

It also appears I had some of this crap in my own personal archives.

Spoiler

Remember folks ANYTHING but thinking C/T were living together. Because we all know that is impossible.

I have said this before. But it's funny just how many times the "official clerith stance" changed with every new piece of information.

 

[Winter]

it was speculation from 6 years ago

who the fuck cares

 

[Vendel]

it was speculation from 6 years ago

who the fuck cares

You do.

 

[Dashell]

Hi, Imma make a post cause I feel like it. So you know how some Cleriths use Dismantled to prove Aerith's date happened? Well I'll admit the book doesn't seem to have much Cloti in it, but so far I've found two references that indicate the High Affection Highwind scene happened

So if you are ever in a debate and that comes up... there you go. The first source is Cloud's final monologue:

それに、 ティファがいてくれる

Moreover, I have Tifa at my side

俺の戦いは孤独じゃないんだって、ティファは教えてくれる

I am not fighting alone, Tifa has taught me this.

This references dialogue spoken ONLY in the High Affection version:

Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"
"That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream."

The second thing is part of Tifa's profile and is a bit iffy. I don't have the whole thing done but from what I can tell it says she becomes more honest about her feelings in the second half of the game. These feelings are said to be more than just childhood friends in a previous sentence. (at least I THINK that's what it says)

Now this won't solve a whole lot because I've only seen a few Clerith use this.. most of them tell you neither scene or date has a canon outcome... plus there's still that "Aerith's date is default" quote that gets tossed around, and so far there's no "High affection is default" quote, but at least we can scratch the trading cards and Dismantled off the list

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hi, Imma make a post cause I feel like it. So you know how some Cleriths use Dismantled to prove Aerith's date happened? Well I'll admit the book doesn't seem to have much Cloti in it, but so far I've found two references that indicate the High Affection Highwind scene happened

So if you are ever in a debate and that comes up... there you go. The first source is Cloud's final monologue:



This references dialogue spoken ONLY in the High Affection version:



The second thing is part of Tifa's profile and is a bit iffy. I don't have the whole thing done but from what I can tell it says she becomes more honest about her feelings in the second half of the game. These feelings are said to be more than just childhood friends in a previous sentence. (at least I THINK that's what it says)

Now this won't solve a whole lot because I've only seen a few Clerith use this.. most of them tell you neither scene or date has a canon outcome... plus there's still that "Aerith's date is default" quote that gets tossed around, and so far there's no "High affection is default" quote, but at least we can scratch the trading cards and Dismantled off the list

It doesn't have to be default. Simple logic will prove that the High Highwind scene is Canon. We have been told, explicitly, with no qualifiers, that feelings were confirmed that night (Tifa CCU). We have been told 'If Tifa's feelings are high, feelings will be confirmed (The mention of the variance in the U20, when the High Highwind scene is listed at one of the most important scenes of Final Fantasy Seven, which is a handy, but presently unnecessary bit of evidence.) We have also, Quex, as you like to bring up, been told that the Low version is short and lacks anything of note- nothing is confirmed.
We have a very Clear 'Either/Or' choice here, an actual dichotomy. Either A: Scene 1 happened and Event A occurred, or Scene 2 happened and Event A did not occur. We are told Event A occurred. Since we have only the two choices, and Event A occurred, Scene 1 must have happened. To get around this, all the people arguing that the Romantic scene for C/T is only in the High Highwind scene must deal with the 6 or so quotes stating, without conditionals, that feelings were shared. Like I keep saying, The existence of a Conditional statement in one location does not invalidate numerous definite statements elsewhere. Hell, all you really need is the one definite statement to actually say 'This is what happened. Deal.

Of course, knowing which conditional produced a result is kind of irrelevant since we KNOW THE RESULT, and it's twisted tortured backwards logic that's trying to deny that result by pretending we don't know the exact sequence of events leading to the result. It's like someone telling Holmes 'You can't say this man is dead, you don't know what happened here!'

it was speculation from 6 years ago

who the fuck cares

Everyone should. Not because 'Herf Derf the rabids were stupid Harharhar', but because we need to know the past lest we repeat it. On the other hand, some say the past doesn't matter. Period. That one was much more recent, and far more bollocks crazy. And involved the same people. Calling these people to task on their ever changing nonsense is actually necessary, as is occasionally reminding them of things they'd rather everyone forget.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Everyone should. Not because 'Herf Derf the rabids were stupid Harharhar', but because we need to know the past lest we repeat it. On the other hand, some say the past doesn't matter. Period. That one was much more recent, and far more bollocks crazy. And involved the same people. Calling these people to task on their ever changing nonsense is actually necessary, as is occasionally reminding them of things they'd rather everyone forget.

wat

because speculating on a movie in favor of their pairing is clearly the worst thing a human can do amirite

 

[Ryushikaze]

wat

because speculating on a movie in favor of their pairing is clearly the worst thing a human can do amirite

Hi. Note how I NEVER FUCKING SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
I said we should call them on their nonsense because it's nonsense, and remind people of the record of nonsense when it is being swept under the rug.
The 'bad thing' here isn't the speculating. It's not the being wrong, either. Both of those would be fine, if the people involved were not acting like it never happened. Pretending to always be right, that SE is always 'contradicting themselves' leading to constant revisions of their points instead of the Cleriths ever actually being wrong that's the issue. And no, it's not the worst thing ever by a LONG shot. But it doesn't mean you should let people do it, either. Because it's not honest, it's irritating as fuck, and it's certainly not mentally healthy.

 

[Splintered]

I dunno.

I felt the "koi-bito" thing was rightfully mocked as an argument because it was widespread, and it was purposeful misinformation.

But the whole rival orphanages was just some speculation that only a few people threw out there because there was so little information. Since I was really active on ACF and LTD during this time, if it was as huge as the red string of fate or the koi bito, I would have at least encountered it in an argument.

This kind of mild speculation doesn't say much about a fandom. It's only when there is deliberate twist of facts in order to dissuade any sort positive conclusion is when there is a problem.

Like, for example. Back in those days I was arguing with another guy about the trailers we had seen, people were wondering why Cloud was walking in that church (during the "is it for a memory? is it for the children? or is it for him?" scene). I said that because Tifa was seen fighting in the church, it was because he was seeing the aftermath of the fight. The other guy said that was stupid, because he wasn't looking especially worried. In the end, we were kind of both right. But he was a Clerith and I was a Cloti and we had different perceptions about why he was there- not because we ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT ADMIT something. It was just guess work.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I dunno.

I felt the "koi-bito" thing was rightfully mocked as an argument because it was widespread, and it was purposeful misinformation.


But the whole rival orphanages was just some speculation that only a few people threw out there because there was so little information. Since I was really active on ACF and LTD during this time, if it was as huge as the red string of fate or the koi bito, I would have at least encountered it in an argument.

While true it was not to the level of Koi Bito or the Red String, it did persist for some time after the movie first came out, long after we knew Cloud had been living with Tifa. (of course, the 'He lived the the church for two years' thing still isn't completely dead, either), it was out there, and I did encounter it, though IIRC it was on GameFaqs and possibly EOFF.
The point of Reminding them about it (alongside other things) isn't to mock them (many other things can be shown to do that), but to remind them and everyone they've been playing the 'We didn't say that' Shell game with disavowing all knowledge of what they've said since before the movie came out, that it's been going on for five years now.

This kind of mild speculation doesn't say much about a fandom. It's only when there is deliberate twist of facts in order to dissuade any sort positive conclusion is when there is a problem.

Like I said, the issue isn't the 'Rival Orphanages' guess itself. It's merely one of the earliest indicators of backpedaling by this particular group of rabids, rabids who pretend their backpedaling never happened while projecting such tactics onto other people.
The denial and projection is the issue.

Like, for example. Back in those days I was arguing with another guy about the trailers we had seen, people were wondering why Cloud was walking in that church (during the "is it for a memory? is it for the children? or is it for him?" scene). I said that because Tifa was seen fighting in the church, it was because he was seeing the aftermath of the fight. The other guy said that was stupid, because he wasn't looking especially worried. In the end, we were kind of both right. But he was a Clerith and I was a Cloti and we had different perceptions about why he was there- not because we ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT ADMIT something. It was just guess work.

And the both of you could admit you were wrong, admit your mistake, and move on.
That's not the case with the rabids on the CxA forum (not that everyone there is rabid, but egads it has plenty of them), who are trying to erase their own mistakes and project them onto others.
Rival orphanages isn't an example of hypocrisy like the 180 on Koi Bito-> Koibito, but it is an example of sweeping their mistakes under the rug and pretending they never happened.

 

[Tifabelle]

Don't forget, this whole conversation started because an old discussion came up and is still being used in favor of CxA (or to disprove CxT). And even though is was old, it was one that I hadn't seen. Not only that, but I haven't seen anyone that is CxT even claim what was being discussed, so I'm not sure how it came up.

While true it was not to the level of Koi Bito or the Red String, it did persist for some time after the movie first came out, long after we knew Cloud had been living with Tifa. (of course, the 'He lived the the church for two years' thing still isn't completely dead, either), it was out there, and I did encounter it, though IIRC it was on GameFaqs and possibly EOFF.

It's still being argued that Cloud didn't/doesn't live with Tifa. That's one point that some won't let go of.

That's not the case with the rabids on the CxA forum (not that everyone there is rabid, but egads it has plenty of them), who are trying to erase their own mistakes and project them onto others.

It's not only those, but the ones that get swept up in all their BS. Even still, people go there and are fed all these lines of crap, and believe (maybe bc they want to) that all the "clotis" are rabid and CxA is canon and blah blah blah. Not to get nasty, but someone just joined there and was thanked for being another member of the "clerith army". Really now? I wasn't aware there was a war going on.

 

[Dashell]

Really now? I wasn't aware there was a war going on.

Oh there be a war going on for sure. Has been for awhile now

It doesn't have to be default. Simple logic will prove that the High Highwind scene is Canon. We have been told, explicitly, with no qualifiers, that feelings were confirmed that night (Tifa CCU). We have been told 'If Tifa's feelings are high, feelings will be confirmed (The mention of the variance in the U20, when the High Highwind scene is listed at one of the most important scenes of Final Fantasy Seven, which is a handy, but presently unnecessary bit of evidence.) We have also, Quex, as you like to bring up, been told that the Low version is short and lacks anything of note- nothing is confirmed.

I guess the argument now is that the "apathetic" quote is referring to only romantic feelings. In other words Cloud is apathetic about Tifa declaring her love, but is okay with friendship, I guess... That way feelings are shared with both versions, just one is romance and one is friendship?.... No idea if I got that right.

As for Rival Orphanages, ... you keep bringing it up but it really wasn't that big of a deal. I realize you like to point out their backpedaling, but that one is kind of week. A LOT of people were wrong about things that happened in the movie. SO using that as an example doesn't make a lot of sense, especially since the majority over there don't even know what you're talking about when you bring it up.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I guess the argument now is that the "apathetic" quote is referring to only romantic feelings. In other words Cloud is apathetic about Tifa declaring her love, but is okay with friendship, I guess... That way feelings are shared with both versions, just one is romance and one is friendship?.... No idea if I got that right.

But the one that is apathetic IS Apathetic. The entire thing is apathetic. Also, correct me if I'm wrong on the quote here, but does it not also say the low version 'conveys nothing' or words to that effect?

As for Rival Orphanages, ... you keep bringing it up but it really wasn't that big of a deal. I realize you like to point out their backpedaling, but that one is kind of week. A LOT of people were wrong about things that happened in the movie. SO using that as an example doesn't make a lot of sense, especially since the majority over there don't even know what you're talking about when you bring it up.

It was on their forums, Quex. The argument lasted for a decent part of a year. And no, it's not that big of a deal on its own. But that's silver bullet mentality. I'm saying it's part of a larger endemic of sweeping things under the rug, and I don't think they should be allowed to ignore their own mistakes. ESPECIALLY given their mindset on the subject a la 'Why does SE keep contradicting itself? I have to keep changing my essays' and 'I can't wait for the backpedaling from the other side' ignoring their own mistakes and history of backpedaling.

 

[Tifabelle]

In defense of Ryu though, he only mentioned rival orphanages amongst other things, and we asked him what it meant. He was only explaining it for those of us that didn't know. The point remains valid nevertheless.

 

[Dashell]

But the one that is apathetic IS Apathetic. The entire thing is apathetic. Also, correct me if I'm wrong on the quote here, but does it not also say the low version 'conveys nothing' or words to that effect?

Nothing about romance

It was on their forums, Quex. The argument lasted for a decent part of a year. And no, it's not that big of a deal on its own. But that's silver bullet mentality. I'm saying it's part of a larger endemic of sweeping things under the rug, and I don't think they should be allowed to ignore their own mistakes. ESPECIALLY given their mindset on the subject a la 'Why does SE keep contradicting itself? I have to keep changing my essays' and 'I can't wait for the backpedaling from the other side' ignoring their own mistakes and history of backpedaling.

I can completely understand FFG being tired of updating her site. A while back I was writing my own essays that presented the Clerith side of an argument and the Cloti side of an argument. I got the Cloti arguments from this site. I had to constantly go back and revise my essays because arguments kept changing every other day. And you know what? It wasn't just the Clerith side I was changing. I've honestly seen both sides do it.

I don't understand why people can't just say "Okay we were wrong, our bad." and move on. Why does one group have to be "right" about every little thing?