The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[DrakeClawfang]

You don't think membership being down has more to do with the compilation being abandoned and no new entries in sight?

Yes, there is that. It doesn't help though that this community routinely acts very unfriendly towards its members.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm not totally sure membership is down, actually. Down from when ACC or something came out, sure, but I feel like its up from the past few months. Edit: And no we don't. We have been mean to specific members at times. But I don't see us just going around tearing into people on a daily basis.

Also, I don't give a rat's ass about the LTD, but I must admit I hate agreeing to disagree I mean, why bother to debate in the first place then?

 

[Dashell]

Okay I would have kept responded but I had to take my cat to the emergency vet... ever had a long haired cat with diarrhea? :sobs:

ryu it amazes me how readily you are able to make excuses for obnoxious behavior as long as the people in question ship c/t

bb I've been active for a looong ass time and I can tell you that argument was used by almost everyone. They all clung to it like a fucking lifeline. It was the universal response. People whose response wasn't koi_bito were in the minority. And that's me being generous. I don't recall a single different answer. Either they would ignore it, or say it was a mistranslation. Period.

And really now, I know not EVERYONE did but how many Clotis said "Mutual, mutual, mutual!" Do I have to go into TNC and look at some old threads? I know Ryu brought up the "beloved" meaning and Hito said it could be one sided but... everything else I ever read there was "Mutual, mutual, mutual" Then when CoLW came out it went from

"It's third person limited, so it doesn't show Cloud's feelings."
to
"The word CAN be one sided sometimes, it's the one sided one."
and yet again to
"No, no see, it's saying Cloud is just a SYMBOL of her beloved. It's talking about Zack!"

Did the Clerith backpedal with their koi___bito nonsense? You bet they did. Not a question in my mind that they did. But they weren't the only ones. And regardless of how much one backpedaled, it doesn't matter, both sides did it. Deal.

Que... You really think it wasn't painfully obvious the Wcdonald's interview was fake?

Well of course it was obvious. But like I said if Hito or ... someone well known to you guys back then said (sorry I keep bringing up Hito I just feel he's the most well known XD), "Guys I talked to my friends in Japan and they all told me koibito isn't really used for lover." Why would you not believe it? And I'd bet you anything you'd be using that argument had CoLW come out first.

BTW. They did once know Hito and trust him. Until he translated something they didn't want to hear. Guess what that was.

Idk I always hear a different story about this from everyone I talk to so I have no idea what happened.

So now she's a liar and a troll mastermind who orchestrated the whole plot, huh. My how times have changed.

Well at most she's a liar, she COULD be a troll

But i'll give you that. They'd believe anything so long as it went against C/T. Hence, rival orphanages

You would too if it went against C/A.

It's not the speculation, it's the distance they had to reach to maintain their stance that Cee & Tee would never ever ever ever possibly be together. IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING

Ever think Cloud would be called Aerith's koibito?

ryu it amazes me how readily you are able to make excuses for obnoxious behavior as long as the people in question ship c/t

This is the greatest post in the history of ever.

And then they wonder why their membership is down and complain there aren't many Cleriths to debate with.

inorite?

 

[Winter]

Okay we've kind of opened up a whole new can of worms. I actually rather like TLS's mean sense of humor. the point I was making was that circlejerking in the LTD thread is fucking retarded, and is pretty much pointless since both sides have their fair share of idiots.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Membership has actually increased a bit recently, and readership is never higher on the front page than with contentious pages.

LV, it seems your complaint against the 'Rabid Clotis' is that they are mean. Being mean is a very different kettle of fish from being openly dishonest and pretending the past didn't happen.
And moreover, no one's denying that any of that happened. If you'll note, I recognize the majority of the accusations you brought up, contending only two and asking for a clarification on a third, and the reason I contend the two is because if there has been any backpedaling, it's been minor, as the general argument RE: Both Koibito and KH has not changed much at all in response to COLW or KH2. Koibito still means Lover or Beloved. KH2 is still an AU, and AUs still really don't matter much compared to the main continuity.
You see it as 'excusing obnoxious behavior' but I really do not see an ethical or intellectual dilemma with people mocking stupidity. I'm a proud member of a forum with 'Mockery of Stupid people' as part of its motto.


As for no one using Koi Bito...

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=46554&postcount=2943

Last year. Here. Less than a month before COLW. Not the latest example of it to be found.

And the re-inclusion of beloved in Koibito explanations again predates the release of COLW. And yes, we were wrong to stop including it in our explanations, but we thought it was redundant. But we did start including it in our explanations again before COLW dropped. Nor is what we did say when we neglected to be precise and mention Koibito incorrect- it IS used most often with an implication of mutuality, since it is rare to describe a third party as a Koibito without a relationship attached, just as it is odd in Engish.
The issue with COLW isn't that the meaning has changed, it's that Aerith isn't a reliable narrator with regards to other people. She can only speak for herself. This gives us the choice between the options where she as the 3rd person limited narrator speaking of only her own feelings (Cloud was her Beloved) or trying to make a claim about the greater reality (Cloud was her Lover) which makes her mistaken, as there was no chance for the two to be lovers without gross exaggeration.

I've repeatedly cited Uresei Yatsura, in which two men argue over a woman, both claiming she is their Koibito. Both of these men could be incorrect. So can Aerith. Looking at the greater canon, she probably is.

And of course, all this reminds me of the cake analogy, in which Koibito was merely the sprinkles on the icing of the evidence cake.

 

[Dashell]

As for no one using Koi Bito...

http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=2943

Last year. Here. Less than a month before COLW. Not the latest example of it to be found.

And she was never heard from again XD Though I think I see her on CxA sometimes.

ANYWHO:

Aerith isn't wrong or mistaken, cloud IS her koibito. Koibito in the sense that she never got to tell Cloud how she felt. This is an accurate definition of the word according to Nakao who's written many Japanese to English dictionaries:

In your case, Koibito means basically mutual lovers--95 % of the times. If it's used one-sidedly, it's not exactly "unrequited love." In this case, you simply do not have a chance to express your fondness of that person or object, or it's not necessary to do so.

She never got to tell Cloud how she felt. We know this is a fact, therefore no, she's not mistaken at all. Just expressing her fondness for Cloud.

And a backpedal is a backpedal, does it really matter how MUCH someone did? ... no really does it.. .because I don't think it should.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And she was never heard from again XD Though I think I see her on CxA sometimes.

Did I SAY she was someone important? No. I just grabbed a recent-ish example of the argument being used. I noted it was being used this way RIGHT before the big 180 with COLW. That's the point. Koispacebito was going strong right until the reversal.

ANYWHO:

Aerith isn't wrong or mistaken, cloud IS her koibito. Koibito in the sense that she never got to tell Cloud how she felt. This is an accurate definition of the word according to Nakao who's written many Japanese to English dictionaries:

She never got to tell Cloud how she felt. We know this is a fact, therefore no, she's not mistaken at all. Just expressing her fondness for Cloud.

You DO realize I OFFERED THAT as one of the explanations, YES?
My point is that we have two similar and common definitions of Koibito in this situation that either A: Tell us nothing we did not know or B: Cast Aerith as mistaken. I'm not saying she IS mistaken, I'm noting the conditional here.

And a backpedal is a backpedal, does it really matter how MUCH someone did? ... no really does it.. .because I don't think it should.

'Wait, I've been neglecting to mention X' is substantially different from 'IT MEANS X... X, what X? Never X! Y, Of course Y!'
There's a difference. Especially when the neglect really was neglect. We were aware of the other meaning, but we were fighting koispacebito and 'one who loves' arguments. It made no effective difference at the time whether Tifa was beloved by someone or someone's lover so sacrifice in the name of efficiency were made.

Your basic point, that both sides have fucked up, that's sound.
Casting these fuckups as equal, that point is not sound.
Not only are the very nature of each side's 'darker halves' vastly different, the scale is incomparable as well.

 

[Dashell]

Did I SAY she was someone important? No. I just grabbed a recent-ish example of the argument being used. I noted it was being used this way RIGHT before the big 180 with COLW. That's the point. Koispacebito was going strong right until the reversal.

I dunno what you thought I was trying to say here but I was XDing the fact that she never came back... perhaps because of CoLW.

You DO realize I OFFERED THAT as one of the explanations, YES?
My point is that we have two similar and common definitions of Koibito in this situation that either A: Tell us nothing we did not know or B: Cast Aerith as mistaken. I'm not saying she IS mistaken, I'm noting the conditional here.

I'm not allowed to expand upon what you say and offer more information? In other words, "I agree it was the one sided definition, but not with her being wrong."

Your basic point, that both sides have fucked up, that's sound.
Casting these fuckups as equal, that point is not sound.
Not only are the very nature of each side's 'darker halves' vastly different, the scale is incomparable as well.

You're only talking about koibito here though, others swear up and down there was backpedaling over Kingdom Hearts from the Cloti side. I guess I thought you meant "our backpedals aren't as bad as theirs" and to me that seems kinda ... strange XD

 

[Vendel]

You know what? Let me get back to something.

it was speculation from 6 years ago

who the fuck cares

You apparently care a lot because you can't shut the fuck up about it. And I'm sorry if my posting a relevant screen cap for a discussion that was underway offends you so much.

One or two more post on the subject and it probably would have died there. BUT NO someone had to come in here and express righteous rage about it. And now YOU are directly responsible for the very thing that is throwing you into fits.

So suck on it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I dunno what you thought I was trying to say here but I was XDing the fact that she never came back... perhaps because of CoLW.

It seemed, given the trend of this thread at the moment and your current tack in it, that you were saying it was a one off.

I'm not allowed to expand upon what you say and offer more information? In other words, "I agree it was the one sided definition, but not with her being wrong."

You did a poor job of doing it. Especially since I was not saying she was wrong. I SAID we have a choice. I did not say she was wrong. I said we had a choice to see her as one or the other given the meanings. Your reaction started by saying she was not wrong or mistaken, which seemed to ignore the framing of such as a choice.

You're only talking about koibito here though, others swear up and down there was backpedaling over Kingdom Hearts from the Cloti side. I guess I thought you meant "our backpedals aren't as bad as theirs" and to me that seems kinda ... strange XD

The argument re:KH is the same before and after KH2- AUs really don't count. The reaction to KH2 was 'Hah, hoisted by your own petards, go cry some more.' Not 'KH2 actually proves Cloti, it counts, it counts!' While the internet has et records from that era, what remnants exist of the crew around here often include disclaimers along the lines of 'If it counts, then...'
And 'Our backpedals aren't as bad as theirs' is still a legitimate counter. Even if you count the Koibito mess as a backpedal, that's still an internal correction of a mistake of omission while preserving the overall whole as opposed to tossing out an entire existing argument structure used for four years and pretending it never existed.

The only way KH2 could really count as a backpedal would be to find people who A: thought KH1 did not count as far as AU but KH2 did (the notable exceptions made for stated parallels would not be sufficient here. You'd need to find someone unconditionally stating KH2 was commenting and/or defining the main continuity) or that Light was not automatically romantic in KH1 but was in KH2. You'll not find much of either, I expect. Not around here, anyways.

But if we must discuss the 'Cloti' Backpedal to KH2, then the Clerith Backpedal must be addressed.
And this is not to be a circle jerk, though it does seem like any LTD history lesson dealing with the rabids does trigger those cries.
In KH1, the argument is that Cloud was searching for his light. His light must be Aerith and this must have romantic connotations. This argument is flawed and makes several invalid assumptions, but that's neither here nor there. Come KH2, and the revelation that Tifa is Cloud's light. In addition to the denials that Tifa COULD be Cloud's light, there came hasty redefinitions of this argument to create the inner and outer light distinctions, so Aerith could be his inner light and Tifa his outer light.
Instead of admitting their logic was flawed, they did everything they could to avoid giving up their old argument.
By comparison, forgetting to mention an actual, existing definition of a word because it was so similar to other definitions and at the time redundant, that's not even in the same league.

 

[Dashell]

It seemed, given the trend of this thread at the moment and your current tack in it, that you were saying it was a one off.

I figured that's what happened.

You did a poor job of doing it. Especially since I was not saying she was wrong. I SAID we have a choice. I did not say she was wrong. I said we had a choice to see her as one or the other given the meanings. Your reaction started by saying she was not wrong or mistaken, which seemed to ignore the framing of such as a choice.

Well you always bring up the mistaken thing like it's an option and people almost always pick up on it. There are people out there who argue she's delusional and she's not.

In addition to the denials that Tifa COULD be Cloud's light, there came hasty redefinitions of this argument to create the inner and outer light distinctions, so Aerith could be his inner light and Tifa his outer light.

Other way around, Tifa's the inner light and Aerith is the romanticouter light. I don't think light is always romantic though... isn't Mickey Riku's light?.. or am I wrong on that?

Anyways, Ryu:

Spoiler

(ignore happy valentine's day obviously)

 

[Winter]

@vendel- lol u mad. I wasn't even worked up about anything, I was just saying that most of us don't really care how hard you stalk the people at CxA. Oh, and Ryu, I don't hate when you guys circlejerk because I think you are omg so mean, I hate it because it's annoying. There's a difference between humorously chuckling at idiots and being a self-righteous prick, which is what half of the people in this thread become as soon as old LTD shit involving CxA is brought up. The reason I can't stand it isn't just because it's fucking stupid, it's because, believe it or not, I usually like this thread and the people in it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well you always bring up the mistaken thing like it's an option and people almost always pick up on it. There are people out there who argue she's delusional and she's not.

I bring it up as an option because it IS an option. And that's why I present it as such- because the use of Lover rather than beloved would make Aerith seem Mistaken, and possibly delusional here, sure, given the greater canon.
That, in a sense, is my entire point. Insisting on that it must mean lover here paints an unflattering picture of Aerith. Allowing the use of Beloved, that it speaks only of Aerith's feelings, does not.
Your choice is which definition to choose and the consequences involved.
The Beloved/ Lover distinction doesn't matter much to the Tifa quote. Here, though, there's collateral implications.

Other way around, Tifa's the inner light and Aerith is the romanticouter light.

Oh, like the distinction matters. It was all ad hoc ass covering.

I don't think light is always romantic though... isn't Mickey Riku's light?.. or am I wrong on that?

I don't think Light is always romantic either. That hasn't changed since KH1. My assesment remains through KHBBS. It CAN be someone's love, like with Beast and Belle, but it's not always the case.
Not sure about Mickey and Riku, but Pinno is Gheppet's light.

Anyways, Ryu:

Spoiler

(ignore happy valentine's day obviously)

Don't forget, Quex, I like arguing.

 

[Kobato]

I hate when it becomes a gigantic let's-make-fun-of-CxA-to-make-ourselves-feel-better circlejerk. it's fucking annoying, and the conversation steers in this direction every so often. aaaand just about every single time it does I feel no hesitation in expressing my dissatisfaction.

I always wondered. Even in my sleep. Whether if this was a actual LTD thread or deep inside it was a 'mock C/A ' thread in disguise. Though then the main C X A forum Destiny Fulfilled mocks and insults Cloti all the time. Sometimes wonder if would be better to just say that Cloud has a fricken secret crush on Sephiroth and then just let things be. Both sides of the LTD has "it's 'lets bash the other group, because we can ". It's ridiculous. Not saying that the Cleriths and Cloti should hold hands under a fricken rainbow of peace, but maybe actually seriously debate about it, rather than just being jerks about it.

Sometimes I actually want SE to say. " Fuck it with all this " Cloud loves Zack.

 

[Dashell]

I always wondered. Even in my sleep.

Oh thank god I'm not the only one who dreams of the LTD...

...

you know, now that I think about it, I don't find that as comforting as I should have

 

[Vendel]

@vendel- lol u mad. I wasn't even worked up about anything, I was just saying that most of us don't really care how hard you stalk the people at CxA.

Not worked up? Says a person who wanted to kill Nomora over Tifa being in KH2?

And that screen cap took me about 30 seconds to find. It was in a thread helpfully titled "orphanage". So little time to produce so much bitching from you.

Worth every second.

 

[Dashell]

Not worked up? Says a person who wanted to kill Nomora over Tifa being in KH2.

What? winter never said this... just because a Clerith wants to kill Nomura doesn't mean they all do.

 

[Vendel]

Must have been a different 'oddishness' then. My bad.

You know they all look alike to me Q.

 

[Dashell]

wait she did say that?

Maybe she was drunk
But come on, it was a long time ago, it's not like she feels that way now anymore. It would be like 6 years ago?... she was like 13... give her a break

 

[Kobato]

So little time to produce so much bitching from you.

This doesn't make sense at all. Because there is a "let's jerk around the C/A's " going on like she said. When has anybody actually liked being dissed ?

 

[looneymoon]

To be honest, if these Cleriths really are as idiotic/crazy/rabid as you all say they are, wouldn't it be more effective to let that idiocy just... speak for itself? If they're so obviously crazy, and calling them out on it doesn't work, then it's really time to leave them with their crazy. Having an entire thread that's basically dedicated to mocking them isn't very classy imo. Not to mention it reflects really negatively on the community as a whole. I'm not even referring to TLS specifically either (though it does still apply). the behaviour in regards to this topic is one of the chief reasons many people hate the FFVII fandom and refuse to participate in it altogether.

I mean, if there's a lunatic nutjob yelling on the street every day, the average joe that screams back at him is either a gigantic asshole, or just as much of a nutjob as the lunatic. I feel like I'm at the point where I have to stick my head out the window and yell at everyone to stfu because I'm trying to enjoy my programs.

 

[Dashell]

Speaking of Dismantled... okay we werent but it's time for a change of topic. Remember what I said about Tifa's profile?

Personality assessment by words
When Cloud and Aerith exclude Tifa, her emotion is sometimes becoming of jealousy. There seems to be complicated feelings that exceed mere childhood friends toward Cloud. In the second half of the story, her tone becomes more feminine. The event in the Forgotten City was the turning point. She began to face her own feelings honestly.

Of course now that the majority is saying Tifa confessed in both versions I guess none of this matters

 

[Celes Chere]

So little time to produce so much bitching from you.

Worth every second.

^Seems to sum up the last five pages I read, actually.

 

[Fighter]

Ah, the memory lane....

o okay
so then can winter and i bring up the times in faith that the cloti's ran out a neutral poster for simply saying that he believed in the possibility of aeris/cloud,

People in Faith did speak their mind openly and often bluntly. We did not conform to any standard which aimed to make everyone happy. It was brutal but it was honest.

That's the only way we would have it and no one will apologize for that. Many people didn't like it, that's true.

or the fake interviews they built for the sole purpose of "tricking"

You bring up April Fools jokes, seriously?

the cleriths, or the "clerith handbook" that was up for years,

Mocking yes. You've done that more than once yourself. No one is going to cry over it on this end.

or the backtracking with kingdom hearts

I assume you mean that suddenly with KH2 it all mattered when it didn't before. Be more specific, because as far as I know all the old Faith members still maintain that KH is only relevant to KH.

The mere fact that we debate over it doesn't mean anyone backtracked on anything. And really, did you expect after all the KH1 worshiping no one would be tempted to rub it in?

and koibito?

Many people have provided both meanings of the word multiple times. I have personally done so dozens of times, way before CoL. I had both meanings in my sig for a month. You made fun of that very sig in Devotion, Zee.

The reason the mutual meaning was by far more prevalent was because no one was interested in debating Tifa's feelings. It was assumed as fact by all sides and therefore from that point of reference the one befitting meaning was used. Or it's now backtracking that people didn't explain every possible irrelevant connotation in every post? So be it.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Did the Clerith backpedal with their koi___bito nonsense? You bet they did. Not a question in my mind that they did. But they weren't the only ones. And regardless of how much one backpedaled, it doesn't matter, both sides did it. Deal.

Deal with the fact that just because you say it over and over and over again even though you've been proven wrong before doesn't suddenly make it true this time. It's kind of sad actually.