The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Winter]

Cloud's father is

Spoiler

Sin

DADDY ISSUES

It seems to me you’re excusing anything that may not agree with your opinion as shitty writing. Maybe, just maybe, you’re wrong. And I don’t see particularly bad writing in CC, even if it is quite cheesy at times.

Nah, there is a TON of bad writing in the Compilation. I haven't really been entirely serious this entire conversation, but I will not excuse the fact that there is a ton of terrible retcon-filled writing scattered throughout the Compilation entries. There's a damn good reason why I don't like the Compilation.

I honestly just want to know why the unnecessary bullshit like, “wear pink for me” was even added then. What’s the point? From a cinematic/writing perspective, what the fuck is the point? If SE want us to know Aeris loved Cloud then why introduce all this shit? I have yet to receive an answer. Ever. In the history of asking.

because it makes CC ~romantic~ in a way that FFVII never was. Because some people don't like flawed, unhappy characters and prefer generic romance.

No. Unreliable characters talking at a point where they don’t have all the pieces or are in denial exist. That’s Aeris.

The only unreliable narrator in FFVII is Cloud. Aeris has all of the pieces, for christ's sake when she said that she was DEAD and watching over the planet. I think she knew what was going on at that point.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Before we go around calling everything a retcon, remember, retcon does not mean 'Contradicts what I thought was the case'

Because yes, there are retcons, but I think people are way too quick to label everything as one.

Also, we need to discuss how Aerith is half Ancient/ Half Time Lord.

 

[Winter]

when I say the compilation is "retcon-filled", I'm not bitching about LTD related issues. I mean, don't get me wrong, little details of the Aerith/Cloud/Zack/Tifa dynamic have changed, but that's really not... that important. I mean it's still stupid, but it just doesn't matter as much.

I'm mostly talking about the godawful Genesis storyline and all that is Dirge of Cerberus.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

because it makes CC ~romantic~ in a way that FFVII never was.

Sorry, that's bullshit.
Using Zack's lines on Cloud, saying all her wishes could be summed up in "being with Zack", etc. etc. isn't just SE trying to be romantic. Those connections are entirely deliberate. There is no way they are not. They aren't picked at random just to be romantic. The blantant way in which they ahve made every scene of C/A somehow come back to Zack is telling in itself.

I'll grant you the Genesis bullshit because I hate him with the intensity of 1000 burning suns. EWW @ DoC in general.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm mostly talking about the godawful Genesis storyline and all that is Dirge of Cerberus.

Hey, Genesis isn't a retcon!

...Dirge of Cerberus is....

....

Aww, fuck, I got nothin'.

 

[Tifabelle]

when I say the compilation is "retcon-filled", I'm not bitching about LTD related issues. I mean, don't get me wrong, little details of the Aerith/Cloud/Zack/Tifa dynamic have changed, but that's really not... that important. I mean it's still stupid, but it just doesn't matter as much.

I'm mostly talking about the godawful Genesis storyline and all that is Dirge of Cerberus.

Dirge of Cerberus isn't a retcon. That's exactly what Ryu is talking about.

 

[Winter]

the first 8 minutes of the fucking game completely contradict Yuffie and Vincent's locations at the end of FFVII

tell me that is not a retcon

also, no Gast. pls explain that

regardless, it sucks hairy cocks and either way falls into the category of "reasons why I hate the compilation"

 

[Tifabelle]

Yuffie and Vincent had no location at the end of FFVII sort of. And just because they stopped talking about Gast doesn't mean he's been written out of the compilation.

 

[Winter]

Sorry, that's bullshit.
Using Zack's lines on Cloud, saying all her wishes could be summed up in "being with Zack", etc. etc. isn't just SE trying to be romantic. Those connections are entirely deliberate. There is no way they are not. They aren't picked at random just to be romantic. The blantant way in which they ahve made every scene of C/A somehow come back to Zack is telling in itself.

I'm sorry, but CC has deliberate romantic appeal that is unlike any other Compilation entry. Romance sells, man. (there's actually an interview regarding this, but hell if I know where it even is)

As much as the connections to Cloud are deliberate (and canon), that doesn't mean they aren't lazy as far as writing goes. That's a part of why I dislike the whole Z/A aspect of CC. I mean really, falling through a roof? jfc. It may be canon, and it's not really a retcon, but it's definitely a stretch, and it's far from good writing, imo.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've always thought Zack ALSO FALLING THROUGH A ROOF was the laziest shit ever and pretty much a cop out. They could have easily wrote something much more imaginative and interesting. How juvenile.

 

[Celes Chere]

I thought it was cute how they met. ;_;

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes, it was cute all the way back in 1997 when it wasn't shamelessly copied again a decade later in the exact same context.

 

[Tifabelle]

I thought it drew an unecessary parallel between Zack & Cloud - I mean, we had enough other parallels that made sense.






But I still liked it. >.<

 

[Celes Chere]

Heh heh... good point. xD

 

[Vendel]

But what about the third Highwind scene?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

One of my other main problems with it (and this isn't necessarily with the scene in general), is that the Compilations seems to bounce around too much in mood. The original FFVII seemed to be a mostly dark, serious adventure with some fun and silliness sprinkled in that really did a good job in contrasting with the depressing shit that surrounded it (Cloud cross dressing in the ghetto), although sometimes this worked against it (Cloud snowboarding in less than an hour of game time after Aeris' death).

The Compilation seems to swing from 'ACTION ACTION ACTION DILLY DALLY SCHING SCHING' (Advent Children), to 'im a dark and depressing vampire lets all wear muted colors' (Dirge of Cerberus) to 'Shinra secretly sends everyone to death camps/experimentation/SOLDIER/blah for no reason' (Before Crisis).

Crisis Core came the closest to the original feel of FFVII, but even that sometimes slipped up (the Zack example above, playing upbeat music in the slums, Genesis, etc etc)

I dunno!

 

[Vendel]

Hey this does bring back memories. I could swear we were at 100 pages only a couple days ago.

 

[ForceStealer]

While I totally agree on the music in the slums in CC, Mog. FF7's music wasn't really depressing or anything either. I agree that it wasn't nearly as "Oh happy day!" as CC was, but

I wouldn't exactly call that "gritty slums" either. Great song though

Its true that they could have been a bit more subtle drawing the parallel between Zack and Cloud there, but I appreciate what they were going for. And I can really live with it. Now the fact that the BC Turk DOES AS WELL is when I draw the line. There's no paralleled to be made there, they just don't know how else to introduce Aeris I guess.

Or its as Suzaku(?) said once, that she rigs her roof as a way to meet men.

 

[Dashell]

I have a hard time seeing why it wouldn't be.

This isn't about some early concept like Vincent wants to hump Tifa's leg, or there were old hints of SephirothxAerith, but this was the actual first game. If the point of the first game was, in fact, that Cloud was suppose to love Aerith, then that would be pretty damn important, and it would have not only an impact on the story, but what the players got out of the story.

It would also confirm that C/A weren't as "delusional" as some people say, but based their conclusions fairly solidly since it seemed that the author's felt the same way

Exactly! That's my point! I'm not saying, "CLOUD AND AERITH ARE CANON NOW!" It's obvious the Compilation didn't go that way, but the original seems to be another story. As Fighter said, the low end of the Highwind scene seems just empty, but then after the emptiness you have Cloud say in the end that he wants to see Aerith in the promised land. I can see how some would come to the conclusion that he was blowing her off.. because ... well he is XD

Having Aerith go 'Omg Omg he's just like my first boyfriend, but he's totally his own person, and I DEFINITELY love him more, DEFINITELY' isn't 'focusing a lot on Cloud and Aerith. It's focusing on Aerith focusing on Cloud. And indicating she doesn't really parse Chocobutt yet.

Again, a focus on Aerith focusing on Cloud isn't a CxA focus. Greater narrative context, it's something I've been harping on about for what feels like six years now.

1. I'm not just talking about Aerith talking about Cloud.
2. Even if it isn't a focus on CxA, it seems to make Zerith less important.

Aerith has impressive eyes because they are innocent and optimistic in soul crushing midgar.
The most important thing for the entire team is to unfreeze Aerith's smile 'We have to do it, we owe it to her'
And again, why shouldn't they focus on Aerith? EVERYONE focus's on Aerith. Before and after death.
Could you provide a scan of where it talks about the C/A date?

But it's always Cloud saying these things. Obviously it was important to note that Cloud was the one focusing on Aerith and not just the group. Know what I mean?

As for a scan, I guess I'll get that tonight.

Also, I think the conclusion of the original game is CloudxTifa. Like Ryu said, why kill her if they were supposed to be together. Why not kill Cloud as well if they were supposed to be together? But you have to look at the whole in order to find the conclusion, not just bits and pieces.

Keep in mind the love triangle subplot is just that, a subplot. I think they left it open so you could decided if you wanted Cloud to be with Tifa or to remain in love with Aerith. Keep in mind it's not about who Cloud can be with, it's about who he loves.

GIVE UP.

NEVA

And, well, who cares if Cloti wasn't intended at first if that is the case.

I do

What was intended at first was for the player to determine where Cloud's affections lie. You choose his pertinent responses and who's in your party - leading to who the date is with. That's why there are different versions of the Highwind scene.

And I fully support and believe that now. Thanks.

Doesn't really matter if you get it or not, she's confirmed in a canon source to be in love with him, so there's not really any debate on that.

Also sure, people like to say "WELL OF COURSE CLOUD CARED ABOUT AERIS" but often times whenever an instance is brought up where he shows her any sort of affection it's belittled or excused because he feels guilty/obligated/was really thinking about tifa.

This

I never understood the vehement disagreement of fellow Cloud/Tifa fans that Aerith never really loved Cloud. It says so right in Case of Lifestream, she loved him unconditionally despite how odd things were when it started out. It doesn't cheapen in any sort of way, Aerith's love for Zack either. Or their relationship.

FUCKING

THIS!

^Imagine an angry Hitler shouting this.

ROFL that made me laugh

But what about the third Highwind scene?

So did that XD

Also something I forgot to mention


that entry that says all that stuff about Zack and her loving Cloud more... also says she met Zack while selling flowers

nice to see discussion going again

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I wouldn't exactly call that "gritty slums" either. Great song though

That's because it didn't necessarily have to be depressing, perse. However that song does fit the atmosphere of 'pretty shitty ghetto but people are doing what they can to make it' pretty much to the tee, which is why its played in places like Wall Market or even non slum places like Rocket Town.

Besides, there's a different kind of 'depressing' I'm going for here. There's 'depressing' as in 'someone died' depressing, and there's 'depressing' as in 'I'm fucking stuck in the ghetto with crack fiends all day' depressing.

This nails it. Perfectly conveys the feeling that you're about to get stabbed. Every day. Very few FFs to date have matched the BGM with the area/atmosphere as well as this song does.

 

[looneymoon]

I don't think the parallel of Zack/Aeris and Cloud/Aeris is bad per se. I think the execution was lazy, but the idea itself is neat imo. It furthers the parallel of Cloud/Aeris' character's/arcs. Especially since Zack's personality rubbed off on Aeris...

...which furthers my crazy Cloud/Zack shipping agenda. Haha! *runs away*

 

[Dashell]

And I'm sorry that I just don't get the logic of Square going, "Okay to prove Aerith isn't over Zack and that she loves Zack more than Cloud, we'll have her say she loves Cloud more "

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I believe she loves them both in very different ways. And I'm content with that and if someone disagrees well... go ahead but I prefer my view on things

EDIT
also wasn't Dismantled re-released in 2002 or 2004 or something? I know there's two versions.

 

[ForceStealer]

@Mog - I do love that song, though I'm not sure it make me feel I'm about to get stabbed I mean it kinda sounds like you're sneaking around I guess.
I like that the background is the Main Theme in a minor key.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

@Mog - I do love that song, though I'm not sure it make me feel I'm about to get stabbed

Maybe not by itself, but the magic in the equation is that when you mix it in while you're actually playing in the slums, it complements it quite well. Whether you feel you're about to get stabbed, doing a drug deal, sneaking around, music is individual like that and everyone interprets it differently. However I do feel that it does its job for the setting!

And yeah I never noticed that about the background. Good find.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't think the parallel of Zack/Aeris and Cloud/Aeris is bad per se. I think the execution was lazy, but the idea itself is neat imo. It furthers the parallel of Cloud/Aeris' character's/arcs. Especially since Zack's personality rubbed off on Aeris...

...which furthers my crazy Cloud/Zack shipping agenda. Haha! *runs away*

The problem with a lot of the Zack/Aeris and Cloud/Aeris shit is just too blatant and not subtle at all. There's no thematic worth to parallels when its smeared all in your face as opposed to being a faint, but detectable smell in the room.