The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Splintered]

Oh dear.

 

[Dashell]

The thing is, I ... just take Aerith's word for it. Maybe I'm stupid for doing so, maybe I look like an idiot, and I'm not looking at the context enough, but I believe I am.

You've got Aerith.
Aerith was with Zack
They loved each other and had a great relationship
Zack left and Aerith was sad
Aerith met Cloud and was INITIALLY attracted cause he reminded her of Zack
Aerith realized what she was doing then decided she wanted to get to know Cloud for Cloud
She died
She still loved Cloud, what she knew of him.
**Aerith gets to know the real Cloud in the lifestream and she still loves him
Cloud is her beloved

**only if you think Maiden is canon obviously

It just fits nicely. I don't have to backtrack or sit here and analyze sentences or anything like that. All of the quotes make sense to me and don't really contradict. It makes sense and that's why I defend this so much. I really believe I'm right and that's... why. If that makes any sense at all...

Oh dear.

Oh dear what?

EDIT:
you guys know how a lot of you hate how Cleriths don't think Tifa was Cloud's light in KH2 which basically makes her some idiot fumbling around looking for Cloud only to get in his way in the end? The creators wouldn't do that and I feel the same way about this. The creators aren't going to make Aerith someone who's in denial and can't see the truth. I just don't think that was the intention here.

 

[crack]

but srsly Aerith loves Zack

OH NO SHE DIDN'T!

 

[Dashell]

how did I not see that?

but srsly Aerith loves Zack

youtube vid right back atcha

 

[Fighter]

what she says can definitely be construed as flirty. It's obvious to her why he would show up and when he says for forgiveness, considering she's the only one there, that should be obvious. She is acting in a matter that is quite flirty, whether you like it or not.

With all due respect. I can see how their interactions are tender but that doesn't mean they are flirty.

The creators aren't going to make Aerith someone who's in denial and can't see the truth.

They did that with Cloud and Tifa to some extent. Why is Aerith any better?

I think it's fairly obvious that she was attracted to the Zack part of Cloud. And that it took some thinking for her to eventually realize that and look for more in Cloud. But you also have to remember that she didn't know that part of Zack was almost literally in Cloud. And when she did find that out, it would have an impact. Because that stuff is some really heavy baggage that would screw with anyone's head and make them reexamine themselves. It implies some real soul searching. And -- this may piss you off more -- I think it's good enough grounds to question Aerith's outward declarations.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I AM SORRY CLEARLY SHE IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN ATTRACTED TO CLOUD, NEVER FLIRTS WITH HIM AND ONLY TOUCHES HIM FOR EXPOSITORY REASONS.

Not what I meant or said.
That is a serious moment, in which Cloud tells he wants forgiveness all sad and emo. For her to flirt in that moment because she's attracted to Cloud is nonsensical, and trivilizes Cloud's pain and the whole fucking scene. The guy can barely get a word out over his guilt. It is not the time to be all like, "hey buddy, I want your dick," verbally or otherwise.

She says it the way she does because it is clearly a ridiculous notion that she would ever blame him for her death. That is what she aims to express, hence the lighter tone of "Jesus, you moron, why would you think I blame you?"

It's obvious to her why he would show up and when he says for forgiveness, considering she's the only one there, that should be obvious.

Yes, she's all, like LOL WHO, Cloud, BECAUSE I SURE AS FUCK NEVER BLAMED YOU! she's not being coy. She's not all like, "teehee, i know you're gonna say me. Come on, say it, lolz". No shit it's her. Her question of who is meant to convey the disbelief at him thinking she would EVER BLAME HIM. Hence the whole scene with the phone and the water, going on about exactly that.

 

[Dashell]

They did that with Cloud and Tifa to some extent. Why is Aerith any better?

What do you mean?

 

[Zee]

For her to flirt in that moment because she's attracted to Cloud is nonsensical, and trivilizes Cloud's pain and the whole fucking scene.

You do realize this is the same woman who told Barret she was gonna go play some video games after he got his heart ripped out at Corel, and also teased Cloud (who was having mental issues, SEIZURES OF WHITE TEXT ALL OVER THE PLACE, and had just beaten her face in) about having a mental breakdown, right?

Now, I don't know if I'd call her actions in AC flirting, but they are certainly teasing.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Yes, I know it's tactless Aeris. And it's perfectly in character for her to adopt a lighter tone to address a more serious issue. But she wasn't actually flirting. In terms of tone, that makes no sense within that scene.

And bringing up Barret is exactly my point. She's not flirting. It's the Aeris way of adpoting a lighter tone in asking Cloud...umm who dude? because no one in this flowerfield blames you for anything.

I wouldn't say it's even teasing, but whatever. It's a more sombre scene. I remembered I was LOLing when she said that to Barret, somethign not meant to happen here. She is clearly teasing (except it's directed to Zack LOLz) later in AC when he's all like "mom?". That'd be teasing teasing, yeah. But not here.

 

[Fighter]

What do you mean?

Cloud was in denial of his own self. Tifa thought that everything would work out by itself when arguably she knew it wouldn't, as a result in her overcautious approach to Cloud she waited too long to tell him the truth.

You do realize this is the same woman who told Barret she was gonna go play some video games after he got his heart ripped out at Corel, and also teased Cloud (who was having mental issues, SEIZURES OF WHITE TEXT ALL OVER THE PLACE, and had just beaten her face in) about having a mental breakdown, right?

She's hardly this callous in this one story defining moment, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Zee]

She's hardly this callous in this one story defining moment, wouldn't you agree?

She's not callous, she's tactless.

Personally I find her more teasing than outright flirting, but it's not a biggie if someone takes it that way, imo. It's not like one is any more grossly inappropriate when you're talking to a dying man than another.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

She's hardly this callous in this one story defining moment, wouldn't you agree?

IKR! I know she can tactless at times, but people act as if she is incapable of being serious. Yes, Aeris always sees the funny side of every situation all the time. In this pivotal scene where her "beloved" is dying of an incurable disease he sees as his punishment and tells her he just wants to be forgiven for his sins, Aeris is like "Who? Who is it again you want forgiveness from? I forgot there for a second. Oh, it's me is it? LOL, I knew it. For a second there I thought you were addressing the ether."

Yes, brilliant characterization. Give the writers a medal.

Aeris can be tactless. It's not all she does. It doesn't fit within the framework of that scene, certainly not the fucking tone. And certainly not the scene after with the phone that can survive dropping to the bottom of a lake (btw, buy it!).

 

[Zee]

She's clearly taking the piss. It's 100% in character that she'd tease Cloud while helping him along.

I mean, we all get this, right? I have no idea why this is being debated or what it has to do with anything, tbh.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Random - god, remember this? XD

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=171262&postcount=4896

 

[Tifabelle]

You've got Aerith.
Aerith was with Zack
They loved each other and had a great relationship
Zack left and Aerith was sad
Aerith met Cloud and was INITIALLY attracted cause he reminded her of Zack
Aerith realized what she was doing then decided she wanted to get to know Cloud for Cloud
She died
She still loved Cloud, what she knew of him.
**Aerith gets to know the real Cloud in the lifestream and she still loves him
Cloud is her beloved

**only if you think Maiden is canon obviously

I would agree with most of this. Where I have trouble is those last two. First, I would say she didn't stop loving Zack, so she would still love both of them. Neither here nor there I suppose.

My real problem is with her getting to know the real Cloud. Assuming that's true (even though Maiden isn't kosher), then what she realized is that all she knew of him and all that attracted her to him was him thinking he was Zack. I'm not saying she's incapable of loving Cloud, but something isn't adding up here.

As for the flirting/teasing. I certainly don't think it's flirting. Like OWD said, it's not in line with the scene. By the same token I don't think she's flirting with Zack in the Lifestream during their back and forth. That would be teasing/joking. During her moments with Cloud, I think the "By who?" is a light tease. As if to say, "Certainly you don't think you need forgiveness from me? Because I never blamed you, not once. Maybe you just need to forgive yourself." It's just her gentle way of making him aware of that.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm not saying she's incapable of loving Cloud, but something isn't adding up here.

CoLW would like to have a word with you.

 

[Dashell]

I would agree with most of this. Where I have trouble is those last two. First, I would say she didn't stop loving Zack, so she would still love both of them. Neither here nor there I suppose.

I KNOW she didn't stop loving Zack! I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS! People keep thinking I don't know this

I didn't say she did >_<

My real problem is with her getting to know the real Cloud. Assuming that's true (even though Maiden isn't kosher), then what she realized is that all she knew of him and all that attracted her to him was him thinking he was Zack. I'm not saying she's incapable of loving Cloud, but something isn't adding up here.

how can I put this delicately?... I'll let Dr Cox do it:

Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him.

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him.

And she KNEW Cloud wasn't how he was acting, and after that she still loved him.

"So you won't have a breakdown..." Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud.

"I'm looking for you."... "So you won't have a breakdown."- what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep
meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She
knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability.

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud.
Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered
the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself.

So she didn't just love him for Zack

 

[Tifabelle]

CoLW would like to have a word with you.

Why? Because she calls him her beloved? I get that; I'm not necessarily saying she didn't love Cloud. I'm just saying it's not so black and white. One line does not explain enough. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Dashell]

Why? Because she calls him her beloved? I get that; I'm not necessarily saying she didn't love Cloud. I'm just saying it's not so black and white. One line does not explain enough. That's all I'm saying.

What about the two I posted?

And to me it doesn't matter if it's just one quote, one is enough. They don't need to say the same thing 20 times for it to be true.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Why? Because she calls him her beloved? I get that; I'm not necessarily saying she didn't love Cloud. I'm just saying it's not so black and white. One line does not explain enough. That's all I'm saying.

Assuming that's true (even though Maiden isn't kosher), then what she realized is that all she knew of him and all that attracted her to him was him thinking he was Zack.

key word here is attraction: it doesn't mean that she instantly fell in love with him. She liked him, and realized something was up. She wanted to get to know the real him, but since he was way too bugfuck crazy, they never actually got to bond, but she still loved that part of him that wasn't Zack.

 

[Tifabelle]

The lines you posted are exactly what I'm saying. She realized Cloud wasn't Cloud, and still has great affection for him.

Obviously Cloud wasn't entirely Zack, so some of his own personality did show through. That's not what I meant, so let me just fix that right there.

Aerith admits that she wants to get to know the real Cloud. That's sweet, and it sounds like she's interested in him and wants to love him for him and she did harbor some feelings for him. I have never denied that. But if she realizes Cloud isn't Cloud, how can she still love him? How do you still love a man when you don't know who he is.

So then she died. She never got to know the real Cloud. So when did she fall in love with the real Cloud? After the Lifestream sequence?

 

[null]

Har Har. Well, considering Cloud falls through the same fucking roof, carries the same fucking sword and is the same fucking rank, has the same fuckign eyes, adopts Zack's mannerisms/characteristics, and she uses the same fucking lines on him that Zack did on her...yeah. I don't know how I'm supposed to just gloss over that.

Doesn't say "girl who's still not chasing the shadow of her dead boyfriend" to me, whether Aeris herself realizes it or not.

No, it just sounds like you're moving the goalpost. Imposing your own arbitrary standards on "moving on" and purposefully ignoring the story in order to win an argument.

She clearly states she realizes she initially saw Zack in Cloud, but "things are different now". Does she at some later point start gushing about loving Cloud's lighthearted personality and charm? Maybe if there were something unique to Zack that she kept harping on, you would have a point about her being unable to break with the past.

There's a logical progression. She has a history with Zack, she sees Zack in Cloud, and then she moves on and falls in love with Cloud. This is reinforced by mentioning it in CoLW. She doesn't see Zack, then see a difference between Cloud and Zack, then turn around and see Zack again.

All you have left is "she didn't have enough time to develop true feelings for the real Cloud." To which I respond:

A) Apply the same standard to Tifa. She didn't have the slightest clue about the real Cloud, nor did she have time to develop them within the course of the OG, and no one except diehard shippers second guess her feelings. We spent years making fun of those people.
B) It's fantasy. The rules... just got screwed.

And I'm not saying anything Aeris says should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm saying that she has a history of not dealing with the pain of Zack's death, of refusing to ackowledge it, of pretending it's not important to her anymore then running out of the room trembling when she is faced with evidence that he didn't just run out with some girl as she would like to hope. That he wrote home about her.

Right. You're saying Aerith's the inspiration for Tyler Durden. She probably stays up all night making soap.

She admits herself that she sees Zack in Cloud. My point is that Aeris adding "but it's no biggie, I dun care. Totally" every time she talks about Zack should not be taken as word-of-God when her actions show us the exact opposite. Because this contradiction of words vs. actions is SE pointing out that she is not telling you everything. That despite it being not a big deal, as Aeris says, it CLEARLY is and affects her accordingly. This is clear even in the OG.

So you have no problem admitting that Cloud isn't with Tifa. Cloud's history of mental problems invalidates any future character progression, regardless of what he says. SE has pointed out time and time again that Cloud is a psychologically and emotionally stunted nervous wreck with a history of relapse, CLEARLY incapable of holding long-term relationships (according to real life standards), no matter what they write him to say.

Every time Cloud talks about moving on with Tifa and always being with her, we know SE is just pointing out a clear contradiction of words vs. actions. Cloud can't be with Tifa - at least not in the timeframe of the current Compilation. Actions speak louder than words.

Not the fucking point. I'm talking about a woman who has a history of chasing after the shadow of her ex.
A woman who in large becomes fascinated by Cloud and attracted to him because of the similarities to Zack. Someone who constantly says it doesn't affect her, when it clearly does. Hell we even have that in writing.

Like I said, as long as you admit Cloud can't possibly be with Tifa, based on your own nebulous context clues and real-life pop psychology.

Aeris DIES not fulfilling what she wanted, which was to stop chasing after Zack and love Cloud for Cloud. I'm not saying she CAN'T move on. Only that the game shows us this desire to see know the real Cloud (which is important to her and if she already knew and loved Cloud for Cloud she would not be asking it) and it never shows us her attraction for Cloud himself. For Cloud as separate from the shadow of Zack. We never see Aeris with this Cloud character she wanted to meet.
Her feelings for this Cloud are never developed. She dies.

But it's totally OK for Tifa to fall for a fake guy she never really knew in the first place. Hey, she had all of a few days between the Lifestream and Highwind scenes, right? Plenty of time for true love to blossom.

I dunno. Are we playing with semantics here? Moved on/wanted to mvoe on/whatever whatever? She expressed the desire of wanting to develop feelings for Cloud without them being burdened by her ex's shadow. Yes. But the game never shows this actually happening. This tells you something in itself.

Fine, eat years of your own words. Tifa didn't have time to actually fall in love with the "real" Cloud. This tells you something in itself: there was no original romantic intent for Cloud and Tifa.

I don't see how this applies to Cloud. I never made up a standard of crossexamination and never put everything every character says unde 'lies until proven right'.
Not even everything Aeris says. I'm merely pointing out that where Zack is concerned (and her heritage to an extent) she is shown by writers to contradict herself within the game with a very clear purpose: WHAT SHE SAYS ISN'T WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. It's just a way of showing Zack means a lot more to her than she lets on. And this is important to fully understand her character and why she says/does what she does. This is FACT. Her behavior and SE's subsequent comments on this agree. I don't see why suddenly this has to be applied to everyone else.

You said "unreliable characters talking at a point where they don’t have all the pieces or are in denial exist. That's Aeris. Saying she realizes what she’s done and wants to MOVE AWAY from that is not her moving on."

That is your standard, straight out of your fingertips. And you're right, according to you, that standard doesn't apply to every character, only unreliable ones without all the pieces or in denial.

Cloud clearly does not have "all the pieces". Therefore, according to your logic, we are free to second guess whatever he's written to say. Saying he wants to be with Tifa is not him wanting being with Tifa. He's just living with Tifa because she represents emotional stability and the mother figure he's lost. Between commentary and actions, that's clearly what SE wants us to believe. That's why he never says he loves her, never shows clear romantic intent.

Seriously, stop me if there's a reason we should apply different logical standards to the behavior of Cloud, Aerith and Tifa.

 

[Tifabelle]

And to me it doesn't matter if it's just one quote, one is enough. They don't need to say the same thing 20 times for it to be true.

But when the one line doesn't make sense in context, or expand upon an idea, it's got to be looked at in the bigger picture.

 

[Dashell]

Aerith admits that she wants to get to know the real Cloud. That's sweet, and it sounds like she's interested in him and wants to love him for him and she did harbor some feelings for him. I have never denied that. But if she realizes Cloud isn't Cloud, how can she still love him? How do you still love a man when you don't know who he is.

Is it entirely impossible that she learned more about him with her ability? I mean she can see through to his essence, and she knows he's awkward and shy and what not. It's not like she didn't know him at all


*sigh... if only my lonely LTD forum would get half this activity

But when the one line doesn't make sense in context, or expand upon an idea, it's got to be looked at in the bigger picture.

If the line doesn't make sense, maybe you're not looking at the right information.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

So now the discussion is about if Aerith fell in love with Cloud after she died and he was restored? I know for a fact we've wanked this at least twice already in past incarnations of the thread.