The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[minimosey]

Tifa does have to have some basis on which to know immediately that Cloud is not himself, as we are told she does, and that would explain where the basis comes from.

The basis on which Tifa immediately knows something's wrong is a (from Tifa's pov) factual error:

Tifa
How long has it been?

Flash.

Cloud
Five years.

Tifa
............

Cloud
What is it?

Tifa
...it's really been a long time.
Tifa
Actually, it's been seven years.

This isn't about Cloud being different from how he acted before, it's that he remembers something that Tifa remembers differently. And she goes on to say that the reason she kept an eye on him is because of similar inconsistencies:

...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about. All the things you didn't know that you should, And other things you shouldn't know that you did... I wanted to make sure...

Again, it's not "you're acting differently", it's "you have the wrong memories". And Tifa immediately picking up on this is explained by the week of the Nibelheim mission: Cloud hid from her, so she had no reason to think he actually had been there to witness everything.

Does Tifa ever demonstrate knowledge about Cloud that isn't explained by 1) the week in Nibelheim, 2) the night at the well, or 3) his constant fighting, which would've gotten him known throughout town as a troublemaker? I honestly can't think of anything.

 

[Dashell]

Again, it's not "you're acting differently", it's "you have the wrong memories". And Tifa immediately picking up on this is explained by the week of the Nibelheim mission: Cloud hid from her, so she had no reason to think he actually had been there to witness everything.

I dunno where it is and I cba to dig it up but I'm pretty sure there's a quote that says she knew something wasn't right, so it wasn't just the memories. Although I think you're way makes sense when you're going down the "Tifa didn't really know Cloud" route.

 

[minimosey]

Haha, I just started looking at profiles because I'm sure this is coming from somewhere, I just don't know if it's something in the game or a character profile or what. But I really can't think of anything that actually says "hey, they met more".

--Found it! It's a character profile that says she found "strange aspects in his speech and behavior". Goes on to say later, "her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also . . . ."

...So it still seems like it can be chalked up to "hey, he's acting awfully strange for someone who wasn't actually at Nibelheim" to me.

 

[Vendel]

So why do people say that they "fell in love as children"?

And how old are the other couples of FF? I seem to recall some that are not of drinking age.

C/T were clearly in love with each other when they were 15 and 16 respectively.

 

[Fighter]

Who really doubts that if they sat down and wrote Cloud and Tifa's childhood in detail it would be more complicated than something you can summarize in one phrase?

There is a lot of people I grew up with who I can describe as being not close with and yet I knew them well. You are in one playground with them, in one classroom, in one community, for years, you see a significant portion of their lives.

 

[Dashell]

Who really doubts that if they sat down and wrote Cloud and Tifa's childhood in detail it would be more complicated than something you can summarize in one phrase?

There is a lot of people I grew up with who I can describe as being not close with and yet I knew them well. You are in one playground with them, in one classroom, in one community, for years, you see a significant portion of their lives.

To me that's kinda what childhood friends is

 

[null]

also, everyone seems to agree that Cloud and Tifa, regardless of how often they saw each other, weren't too close. So why do people say that they "fell in love as children"?

The CC Ultimania has the "Cloud dimly fell in love with Tifa" quote. (I think.) But that was obvious from the Lifestream scene. I don't know if any outside sources clarify Tifa's feelings. She seems to have begun falling in love after Cloud left Nibelheim.

At any rate, close only matters in horseshoes. She clearly was head over heels in love by the OG, regardless of how close or how well she knew him. (Or how willing to admit she was in love.)

 

[Joker]

It wasn't based on anything remotely like people had said and was not funny. You forced the joke. It was not funny.

Pssst! I speak from experience on this one too. I have spent a not inconsiderable time in small towns and equivalent environs and snuck off as easy as you please. I'm not saying Winter's wrong, I'm saying her experience is not a universal truth.

I did. The joke was based on mocking something not a damn person here was saying. Strawmen for humor are still strawmen.

"Speaking from experience", as you put it, you're wrong. You simply are not funny and cannot appreciate humor.

Also, your arrogance here is simply staggering. Have you not considered that your "not inconsiderable" time in small towns and "equivalent environs" (which is what, exactly? a biosphere?) isn't the universal truth, and is instead and exception, or an example instead of bad parenting? [ooh maybe I should give some credentials first, like coming from a family that has been in the same small town for generations and having lived there myself for years]

Edit: I should probably note that here I am agreeing with Winter here about the small towns bit

Also, thank you for ruining Aki's excellent joke.

 

[Madame Mayor]

The basis on which Tifa immediately knows something's wrong is a (from Tifa's pov) factual error.

We don't really see this scene, but he was referring to when she finds him at the train station and the reason why she begs him to join AVALANCHE. It's so she can keep an eye on him among other thing. It's talked about... somewhere... I'm rusty on my quotes.

 

[minimosey]

...Gimpy, that's the scene I referenced when I was talking about the factual error. Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, asks him how long it's been, and he says "five years" when she thinks it's seven. We do see it, it's a flashback between the events of the first trip to the Northern Crater and when Tifa wakes up at Junon. And she follows that up with the brief thought monologue about why she kept an eye on him: he knew things he shouldn't know, didn't know things he should know (when you prompt him to describe one of the buildings in Nibelheim by entering it in the flashback, his brain goes haywire).

EDIT: Unless you were talking about me, in which case I should probably note I'm a girl. ...Funny, I thought that was in my profile.

...helloooo, options I never played with. /tweaks username color forever now

 

[Madame Mayor]

Okay, now that I'm reading the rest of what you quoted that must be it. I thought it was worded differently.

Anyways, this part that you said: So it still seems like it can be chalked up to "hey, he's acting awfully strange for someone who wasn't actually at Nibelheim" to me.

That conversation doesn't happen until later. When she first meets him, it's his weird speech and behaviour that sets her off, which she'd only know if she had something to base that off of.

EDIT: "Unless you were talking about me, in which case I should probably note I'm a girl."
He = Ryu

Also to clarify once more. He gets the dates wrong from how long it's been, but it's not until later that he talks about actually being in Nibelheim.

 

[minimosey]

No, that conversation is the first one they have upon reuniting. The train station is where Tifa found Cloud. Tifa does show concern about Cloud before the "five years/seven years" discrepancy arises, but that's because he obviously looks unwell (the man's recovering from mako poisoning), not because he's acting strange. When Cloud says "five years", that's when it triggers an awkward pause for Tifa.

Here's the whole flashback, for reference:

Train Man
What's the matter?

Cloud
ohhh...

Train Man
......poor kid.

Cloud
Ooouugh......

Tifa runs over.

Tifa
Are you all right?

Cloud
oo... uh... agh
Flash.
Uh... uh... Tifa...?
Tifa...?
He gets to his feet.
Tifa!

Tifa
...............?
Oh, Cloud!

Cloud
That's right. I'm Cloud.

Tifa
Is it really you, Cloud? I never thought I'd find you here!

Cloud
Yeah, it's been a while.

Tifa
What happened to you? You don't look well.

Cloud
......Yeah? It's nothing. I'm okay.

She turns away and he clutches his head for a moment. She turns back.

Tifa
How long has it been?

Flash.

Cloud
Five years.

Tifa
............

Cloud
What is it?

Tifa
...it's really been a long time.

Tifa doesn't seem to recognize Cloud at all at first, as she asks him if he's all right without addressing him by name or showing any surprise, which is why she pauses after he addresses her--taking a moment to place him. Then she gets excited, asking questions. She turns away for whatever reason before he clutches his head, so she misses that. And then she asks how long it's been.

He says five years.

She thinks seven.

The ellipses train takes off from the station. That's when Tifa gets weirded out.

It starts with facts, and Tifa says that it continues with facts. The only time she brings up past behavior that I can recall, it's his fighting, which can match his present-day behavior (fighting with Barret).

Seriously, I'd love to see examples from the script where she says it's a change in his behavior, because maybe I'm just not remembering something. My impression has always been that Tifa was weirded out because Cloud's story simply defied fact.

 

[Madame Mayor]

That quote is our proof that it's his behaviour. We see that small exchange you've quoted, but obviously more went on before the beginning of the game.

She was reunited with Cloud during one of AVALANCHE’s activities, and invited him to join the organization in order to watch over him after finding many strange aspects in his speech and behavior

He gets the dates wrong (which really, isn't a sign of things being completely out of the ordinary considering how she finds him; she's confused, but it doesn't mean he knows about Niebleheim), he acts strange in speech and behaviour, she wants to watch over him so invites him to join AVALANCHE.

THEN skip forward and she finds out he knows about Niebleheim.

 

[minimosey]

That's from the Ultimania profile, which goes on to state:

There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also . . . .

...As I've quoted before.

Further down the page, there's even a screencap of Tifa's flashback of the train station, when she's talking about him knowing things he shouldn't know, as it talks about why she's keeping an eye on him.

He acts strange in speech and behavior because he's talking about things that happened in Nibelheim and acting like he was there when he wasn't. His speech and conduct don't match the facts.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Here's the question then, does Tifa already know about Cloud knowing about Neibleheim before the rest of the party when he tells the story in the inn?

Because that's the only way it would make sense. Also, why say "many strange aspects in his speech and behavior" when they really mean "knowing things about the past that he shouldn't". If that's the only reason why she wanted to look after him.

 

[Fighter]

There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also . . . .

I agree that this is a very strange choice of words if all they mean is conflicting memories. "Strange speech and conduct" implies Cloud was acting strange (i.e. not himself) not just that he got the facts wrong.

 

[minimosey]

Here's the question then, does Tifa already know about Cloud knowing about Nibelheim before the rest of the party when he tells the story in the inn?

Timeline gives them quite some time between meeting and the start of the game--two months. If their hometown never came up once, it'd be kind of strange, wouldn't it?

And the five year answer to Tifa even implies it. "Five years ago in Nibelheim"--it'd be the first event she'd think of. It's a small town; visitors seem to be uncommon (or regular visitors, at least--Shinra pulled off the village dupe); and, at the time before the team arrived, the town was plagued by monsters, so visitors would be even less common. Not to mention Cloud is passing himself off as an ex-SOLDIER. A Shinra SOLDIER coming to town five years ago...would make her think of the Nibelheim incident. If they really had two months, it's pretty unbelievable that this was never talked about.

Also, why say "many strange aspects in his speech and behavior" when they really mean "knowing things about the past that he shouldn't". If that's the only reason why she wanted to look after him.

Because they DO mean that there are strange aspects in his speech and behavior. His knowledge and lack of knowledge about the past is making him act strange. He doesn't have to be saying "I was a SOLDIER at Nibelheim" 24/7 to act like he was; being casual about being a former SOLDIER, acting surprised at Tifa reacting to him being a SOLDIER (after all, she should already have learned this five years ago, in his mind), or reacting on a very emotional level to Nibelheim's razing, like it's a vivid memory for him and not secondhand news--there are various ways for this to come up.

There is the part where he IS acting strange--Cid points it out. But let me repeat that: Cid points it out. Part of Cloud's strangeness is obvious to anyone who spends enough time with him and is reasonably observant. You don't need to have known him as a child to say "Gaaaawd, you're such a weirdo Cloud." The childhood behavior that actually IS pointed out (fighting) doesn't conflict with his early-game behavior (snapping when pushed). The part unique to Tifa that shows Cloud is acting strange is knowing that the way he's acting about Nibelheim doesn't make sense for what happened.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Timeline gives them quite some time between meeting and the start of the game--two months. If their hometown never came up once, it'd be kind of strange, wouldn't it?

After re-reading the script, it sure sounds like Tifa's shocked and learning this for the first time. I was never under the impression that she knew before that scene and now even less so re-reading it.

Tifa
"Barret, would you please let us hear what Cloud has to say? You can ask questions later."

If she's heard this all before why is she upset that Barret's interrupting?

 

[minimosey]

It sounds like it's the first time Tifa's hearing it told in-depth, as a story, but she never once protests or shows surprise (besides the gag with the underwear). She keeps quiet throughout. There's not even a stifled protest, like "...!" or "Wait, but..." Seems pretty unusual if she was finding out for the very first time he was in Nibelheim at the time of the event.

As for that, she probably wants to get through the story without getting it totally interrupted or too much side-tracking. She's confused about whose versions of events is correct: she'd want to get the details to see if there's an explanation for the contradiction.

 

[Madame Mayor]

We know that "Out of goodwill for Cloud, she didn’t voice out her personal thoughts." She's shocked, and that's why she's keeping quiet.

 

[minimosey]

Yet she's not shocked enough to not tell Barret to be quiet when he's bringing up a topic that's more related to the present than the past, interestingly. And there are other places where she easily fills in info ("The villagers used to call it Shinra mansion") or asks Cloud questions to find out more information. She is NOT shocked silent; she's taking a backseat and keeping mum on her own version of events, but guiding the conversation with both questions + telling Barret to shut up to find out more about what kind of crack Cloud's on. Your quote supports that more than her just being quiet because she can't think of anything to say. "Goodwill" =/= "shock". She'd rather not contradict Cloud without knowing the real truth.

 

[Tifabelle]

Like you said, Kalm might be the first time she hears Cloud talk about the story in detail. But I can't imagine they didn't talk about it at all. It might have been in passing comments like "it's been 5 years", etc. The fact that Cloud knows about Nibelheim at all should send up a flag to Tifa. Because Shinra covered it up, and the only people that knew about it were the people that survived (so basically Zangan & Tifa as far as she's aware).

 

[Ryushikaze]

"Speaking from experience", as you put it, you're wrong. You simply are not funny and cannot appreciate humor.

Or maybe, it wasn't funny.

Also, your arrogance here is simply staggering. Have you not considered that your "not inconsiderable" time in small towns and "equivalent environs" (which is what, exactly? a biosphere?) isn't the universal truth, and is instead and exception, or an example instead of bad parenting? [ooh maybe I should give some credentials first, like coming from a family that has been in the same small town for generations and having lived there myself for years]

Edit: I should probably note that here I am agreeing with Winter here about the small towns bit

Though you've already gone off the handle here, my disagreement with Winter is not that she must be wrong, but that her anecdotal evidence is not universal, and others besides me have pointed this out.
The equivalent environs was a boarding school in the mountains. Just as small, tabs were kept on us pretty regularly, and yet we managed to sneak off without issue all the time.

Also, thank you for ruining Aki's excellent joke.

You're welcome.

 

[Fighter]

The equivalent environs was a boarding school in the mountains. Just as small, tabs were kept on us pretty regularly, and yet we managed to sneak off without issue all the time.

Huh. We have something in common.

 

[Joker]

Or we can look at past precedent and base our conclusions on evidence. Namely, that you're just...not funny. =/

Also, boarding school is nothing like a small town, what with the small staff being outnumbered, versus overprotective parents looking out for their only child. Once again, you fail to consider that you (or at the very least, your situation) are the exception, and not the rule.

tl;dr: your reply confirms that you are indeed lacking in humor