The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

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null.

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Sorry, I feel like a teacher, compelled to grade these essays with my red pen.

Zack and Aerith's Relationship in Crisis Core

by Alantie

The release of Crisis Core brought to light more arguments regarding Zack’s relationship with Aerith. I thought Crisis Core did to Cleris propaganda what a Necromorph did to Isaac Clarke's wife, but please, on with the show. Some fans had expressed skepticism regarding Aerith’s descriptions of Zack in FFVII, believing that she spoke either out of bitterness or delusion and were certain that the new game would prove them right. However, Crisis Core proved Aerith’s statements regarding him to be the truth. In addition, there is controversy regarding the influence that Zack had on her in the form of her flower selling, the ribbon in her hair, and her wearing pink. Some believe the fact that Aerith continues to do these things even long after Zack’s death prove that she is still in love with him, instead of realizing that Zack left his mark on many in a similar fashion. Complete opposite of Cloud wearing a pink ribbon for Aeris, because that clearly shows Aeris impacted him differently from the others wearing the same thing. :monster:

At the market in the slums, to thank Aerith for helping him when he fell through the roof of her church, Zack buys her a ribbon. Fans immediately jumped to the conclusion that Aerith continued to wear the ribbon in the original FFVII because she was still in love with Zack, not considering that she might cherish it for the good memories it held, because it was a gift, and not because she was still pining for Zack. You're right. They should have been tipped off by the 89 letters she wrote him after he'd disappeared, and because she was immediately attracted to a man that looked, acted, fell through the same roof and carried the same sword as him. Stay frosty, peeps. Another thing to consider is the ribbon that Zack gives Aerith and the one she is wearing at the ending look very different from each other.

ZARela1.jpg


ZARela2.jpg


The one that Zack bought for her is a darker red color with straight ends, while the other is lighter pink with pointed ends, both tied in a different style. I thought the Japanese see color on an intuitively horizontal plane, thus proving that red == pink? I'm serious, it says so on your website! It’s entirely possible that the one at the ending is a completely different ribbon, not the same that Zack bought for her. Actually, upon closer examination, it becomes evident that the pointed ends are merely an effect of lens curvature... in reality, they're the flat ends of a lost soul. Perhaps the old one wore out and she had to replace it, buying a new ribbon. Even if it were the same ribbon, it doesn’t mean that the reason she wears it is because she’s still in love with Zack. Many other girls keep gifts from ex boyfriends; that does not necessarily mean that they still love them romantically. *takes notes* "Girls who convince themselves that they were dumped, and continue to write 90 letters and wear keepsakes are not in denial." Got it.

Another thing that's often overlooked about the ribbon is that Zack didn't choose the ribbon for her. Aerith actually picked it out for herself, as shown in the following passage from Crisis Core:

Aerith: Hey, is it okay if I take a look at this shop for a bit?
Zack: What? So the reason you brought me to the town was to go shopping huh?
Aerith: I guess not then.
Zack: I was just joking, it's all right. Go ahead and find the one you like.
Aerith: Thank you. It'll only be a short while. I'll be quick.
Zack: It seems like you have a lot of interest in this store.
Aerith: Yup, just window shopping here is pretty fun.
Zack: Hey Aerith.
Aerith: Yes?
Zack: About when you said "Hellooo---?" to wake up, I still owe you for that.
Aerith: It's really okay. You were offering me one date right?
Zack: You said it sounded dumb right?
Aerith: But that was because---
Zack: Then for helping me get out, I'll buy you a gift to commemorate our meeting today.
Aerith: Are you sure?
Zack: It's fine.
Aerith: Then---is this one okay?
Zack: Got it, I'll go pay for it. Just wait here.

From the dialogue, it appears that this particular shop is one that Aerith comes to visit a lot. Furthermore, it almost seems as though she's actually had her eye on this ribbon for some time. When Zack offers to repay her by buying her a present, she picks out the pink ribbon. Zack merely pays for it. With that being said, the ribbon is something Aerith liked and wanted, picking it out herself. Zack simply paid for it to repay her. Sounds an awful lot like buying my wife's wedding ring. Hopefully she'll never realize how unromantic our marriage is since I bought her something she previously admired.


An optional scene in Crisis Core, activated by the D.W.M wheel is Zack suggesting to Aerith that she should wear pink. She laughs and seems to consider it a joke at the time.

Zack: "Let's make a promise for our next meeting!"
Aerith: "Promise? Next meeting?"
Zack: "Well...no, let's make it 'a promise for the moment of our next meeting.' Aerith wears pink clothes then, how about that?"
Aerith: *giggles*.....what are you talking about?!"

Some consider the fact that Aerith seems to take his suggestion a sign of her romantic emotions for Zack. However, there’s nothing to say that Aerith decided to do so simply because she liked the color pink to begin with, or for any other reason. And certainly nothing to suggest that the writers wanted to retroactively emphasize Aerith's anticipation of his return, thus symbolically integrating their relationship into her iconic appearance. Her original dress does have pink trimming on it already, and in AU games, such as Kingdom Hearts, where Zack has not made an appearance, she still wears pink. Lol AU Why should she have to change the color of her outfit to prove that she does not love Zack anymore? If she likes the color pink, there’s no reason she has to stop wearing it because Zack suggested it.

Some fans believe that Zack wanting to show Aerith the real blue skies outside of Midgar is romantic. That, or because they thought Aerith calling Zack's eyes beautiful and seeing the sky in them was romantic. How delusional. However, what they are overlooking is the fact that Aerith is frightened of the wide open sky; she says so herself that she is scared of it. On that note, we'll overlook her saying that looking into Zack's eyes makes her unafraid of the sky. It’s not a wish of hers, or a mutual wish between her and Zack, but Zack’s own desire. It’s something he wants to show Aerith, despite her own reluctance. Aerith expresses no desire to leave Midgar until Before Crisis and in the original FFVII, she finally does leave.

It is a mistaken thought that it was because of Zack that Aerith began selling flowers. In reality, Aerith had wanted to do so for awhile. She mentions in the game how it is her dream to cover the slum in beautiful flowers, and Zack is the one who encourages her to sell them. He assists her by building a flower wagon to help her transport the flowers around the slums and being supportive about the idea. So in other words, it was because of Zack that Aerith began selling flowers. Seems that mistaken thought loves company. It’s his idea that she should sell them for 7 gil each, but Aerith changes it to 1 gil instead. In the original game at the Honeybee Inn, it’s said that she knows how to “make a good business through selling flowers”. In other words, selling flowers is Aerith’s dream; Zack only helped her gain the courage to do so. There’s nothing about her continuing to sell them after his death that indicates it’s out of romantic feelings. However, comma, Cloud taking flowers home clearly proves romantic intent.

Crisis Core makes a point of showing how Zack has a great deal of influence over many people in the game, not just Aerith. He suggests to a man in the slums who’s trying to think up a name for a bar to call it Seventh Heaven. Great example. The man was completely dead-set against naming it that from the start, proving Zack's massive people skillz. It turns out that the bar is the one that Tifa works at and that Avalanche makes as its hideout. He also is a role model for Cloud who wants to be a hero, much the way he sees Zack being, and his influence on Cloud is clear in their similar fighting style and gestures. Having absolutely nothing to do with Jenova cells, mind you. On a work related visit to Wutai, Zack encounters a young Yuffie who tries to steal from him, and he accepts several missions from her, helping to find treasure. And we can all see what a changed woman Yuffie turned out to be. At the Shinra mansion, he sees Vincent sleeping in his coffin, though the player does not see him, nor does Vincent wake up.
image.gif
He also has quite a bit of influence over Angeal, convincing him that he is not a monster and brings him back to the good side after he had been swayed by Genesis. Zack’s ability to touch people is a big part of his role in the game and who he is as a character. Contrast this with Aeris, who touched no one except for Cloud. Touching lots of people == no romance. (Lol that sounds dirty.)


In the original game, Aerith refers to Zack as a ladies man, believing that he had probably found someone else because he never came back to her. Some fans thought this was an undeserved description, but Crisis Core revealed it to be a true one. Zack is shown to be very friendly with women in general, flirting with a female receptionist that worked in the Shinra building. You know, that explains why Zack was screaming for the female receptionist at the end of the game, telling her to wait for him and Cloud to look after her.

//Intermission: Cessnei/Maiden wank (music provided courtesy of Tool)//

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3juVy9KGo&feature=related

While the relationship between Zack and Aerith was important and he did have an influence on her life, Crisis Core does show that Aerith’s words regarding their relationship was the truth. Zack did indeed flirt with other women, and their romance was not as serious and as lasting as some have incorrectly assumed. The astute audience, however, will observe that Cloud living, supporting, protecting, raising children with, humping and wanting to be forever with the girl his life has always centered around, does not interfere with his serious and lasting relationship with a dead woman.
 

null.

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Yeah and I'm assigning you to my choir now. Can I get a hallelujah! :monster:
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Clerii, if SE makes a game... and it gives many/most people a certain impression about the characters/story, but this impression is incorrect because of reasons they never said or point out, then SE really sucks and why do you even like them?
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=null link=topic=53.msg2324#msg2324 date=1229446450]
Yeah and I'm assigning you to my choir now. Can I get a hallelujah! :monster:
[/quote]

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vIMOdVXAPJ0"]YouTube - Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen) - Allison Crowe live performance[/ame]
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

It is a mistaken thought that it was because of Zack that Aerith began selling flowers. In reality, Aerith had wanted to do so for awhile. She mentions in the game how it is her dream to cover the slum in beautiful flowers, and Zack is the one who encourages her to sell them.

That's not the same thing as selling them. Wishing Midgar was full of flowers is wishing Midgar was full of flowers. Selling them was still Zack's idea, to which Aerith said she never thought of it before.

Also, it's the Crisis Core Ultimania which says that there's no Zack/Aerith/Cissinei love triangle. When asked if they meant to have Zack wavering between Aerith and Cissinei, Nojima says straight out that he didn't.

EDIT; in contrast, in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania interview, they say that in FFVII the main character wavers between the two (count them, 2) heroines Aerith and Tifa.

It also says that during development some thought that compared with Tifa, Aerith didn't have many appearences in the story and didn't leave much of an impression. So much for Tifa being 'thrown in at the last minute'.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Didn't the Crisis Core Ultimania profile for Aerith specifically state that the ribbon she got in Crisis Core is the same throughout the entire Compilation? Doesn't that smash the argument to pieces right from the start?

The rest is stupid and completely nonsensical. They seriously must not have played the same game because they make no sense.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Hellz yeah to my pal null. :monster:

Now, does someone want to address the argument that affection is optional in CC? I've read that it's got a sort of "dating game" of its own. Seems to me the 89 letters and 23 wishes and 1 death-trying-to-return-to-the-lady don't change, though. :neo:
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith's affection levels only affect certain dialogue (and some of her gestures) during their little adventure in the Slums.

The last one it affects is how she thanks Zack for buying her ribbon.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg2331#msg2331 date=1229452260]
That's not the same thing as selling them. Wishing Midgar was full of flowers is wishing Midgar was full of flowers. Selling them was still Zack's idea, to which Aerith said she never thought of it before.

Also, it's the Crisis Core Ultimania which says that there's no Zack/Aerith/Cissinei love triangle. When asked if they meant to have Zack wavering between Aerith and Cissinei, Nojima says straight out that he didn't.[/quote]

Yes, but he's only the writer. What does HE know? It's not like he knows the story.

EDIT; in contrast, in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania interview, they say that in FFVII the main character wavers between the two (count them, 2) heroines Aerith and Tifa.

Despite being oblivious of their intentions? I guess 'wavering between' refers to the the up in the air nature of it all, because Cloud doesn't seem to do much of any wavering in the first disc. He's largely uninterested.

It also says that during development some thought that compared with Tifa, Aerith didn't have many appearences in the story and didn't leave much of an impression. So much for Tifa being 'thrown in at the last minute'.

I don't even see how this could reasonably be expected in the first place. Tifa's in the entire game, including FMVs throughout the entire game, and those aren't things you whip up and change 'at the last minute'. She's in the game more than nearly anyone else. She is, in fact, vital to the progression of the plot.
Really, the only reason the 'thrown in at the last minute' nonsense exists is to marginalize Tifa.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Unless Tifa was thrown into every part of the game at the last minute.

Maybe they put Cloud and Aerith together and thought, "What the hell are we doing?" :monster:
 

Rinoa

Stargazer
AKA
Selene, Sheila
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I only read the red parts, jolly good tomfoolery that "essay o' hard work". I bet it took very little effort to tear it apart.

You need to use that red pen on certain pornfanfics.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

That's what the MST was, when you think about it, but I didn't really concern myself with the LTD so much as how shite the story was.
 

spirit_chaser

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Duh, it amazes me that ppl still argue about LT!
Play CC & DC, watch AC & LO, read OTWTAS, Ultimanias ect if you still confused.
EVERYWHERE Cloti is stressed out as canon couple of FFVII. So is Zerith.

Clerith.com is just plain weird! Ive reade some of the articles and I simply cant believe how biased this ppl! Beyond any logic and reason.

And I also saw some essays written by a Cloti fan on lj, kind of an answer to those of clerith.com. I could find the link if anyone is interested in reading it.
It seems like when cloti and cleris argue bout LT its always like this:
Cloti: 2 + 2 = 4
Cleris: No, 2 + 2 = 5 and here is my teh proofz `why`

Personally for me the main proof that Cloud and Tifa are the real couple is that they talk about their feelings for each other, like Tifa to Cloud : "as long as Im with you, as long as you`re by my side... (I dont remember the rest)" and Cloud to Tifa: "Im going to strat a new life and Im sure everything is going to be fine cos you`ve always been with me (CoT before Geostigma).

One thing I dont understand bout some clerith fans is why cant they simply enjoy this pairing as fanon (like writing fanfiction (holy clerith spirit sex ;D) making videos, fanart etc), why dedicating the whole figgin site trying to prove cloti wrong?... ::)
 

haichinamie

Banned
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

The Cloud fuck the Tifa, and he of enjoying.

ps: also hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 i am glad to be here. ;D >:(
 

haichinamie

Banned
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

O yeah...

[quote author=Fighter link=topic=53.msg2370#msg2370 date=1229472189]
ZARela1.jpg
ZARela2.jpg


image.gif

[/quote]

Yeah, and Zack looks exponentially tanner in-game than he does in FMV. It's the fucking pixels. ::)
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Fighter link=topic=53.msg2370#msg2370 date=1229472189]
Yeah, and Zack looks exponentially tanner in-game than he does in FMV. It's the fucking pixels. ::)
[/quote]

-GASP- That must be it... there must be TWO Zacks!
 

OneWingedDemon

NOT AMUSED
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I've got it.
Zack has a slightly darker twin whom he cannot reveal because he is a magician by night, and uses his twin to perform nifty magic tricks.

The truth is, Aeris is actually being banged by the both of them.

There's nothing that says this doesn't happen, so STFU!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Actually, Aerith is herself a twin, and they trade off which one of them gets to bang the Zack Duo.

Prove me wrong.
 

null.

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

*carefully sidesteps the Devil's Horns*

hitoshura said:
EDIT; in contrast, in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania interview, they say that in FFVII the main character wavers between the two (count them, 2) heroines Aerith and Tifa.

Interesting... did they elaborate? I'm with Ryu, I don't see him pacing back and forth, picking off flower petals, doing the hand-scales thing, etc.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Not really. It's merely mentioned breifly by Kitase when asked why FFVII and its characters are especially popular even within the FF series. He was talking about things he thought were fresh and original with FFVII when he says it:

"There being two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and the main character wavering between them was, at the time, something new as well."
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

What? Two Heroines! Blasphemy!

But yeah, I think it just means the sort of undecided nature present in the first disc. Not that Cloud himself was pulling an Archie and switching back and forth between his Betty and his Veronica, but that no one was quite sure who he was interested in.
 

null.

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Maybe we're just used to filtering out the optional dialogue. It was clearly intended to be a major part of the game experience, and set up for the average player to pimp both girls around.
 
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