The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Avenger007]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Great Fighter.. those are some good points to bring up. This is the kind of discussion that's merited.


"The vast majority of C/A arguments are plain absurd, which you seem to admit later. Including the inane attempts to not understand what SE is saying because of some imaginary ambiguity that to most anyone is simply not there. Take the various"

I never said nor admitted that the vast majority of C/A arguments were absurd. Some of them are yes.. just like some of the C/T are the same. And again.. I've never said ambiguity yet twice you attribute this concept to me. But I will say their IS ambiguity in the storyline.. and its not imaginary. Its their.. its nearly self-evident it is there.... Your view on the subject may not see it but it exists. Why else why does such a dichotomy exist on the subject? ( and i don;t thing the vast majority of others a simply simple. )IF there wasn't ambiguity, then it falls to reason that an opposing viewpoint would not have even come into existence. If there wasn't ambiguity... what would cause such a vast polarization? No.. trust me.. like al ot of eastern literature... the ambiguity exists.. and its intentional.

And yes.. i was around ACF days. And even back then.. during the LTD discussion.. I made mention that I would play the Devil's advocate. And even then so... 2-3 years ago.. I believed it to be more of an equal interpretation than people were letting it to be so... i have just decided what interpretation I believe. I don't try to hide it.. if it did i would of used a different forum name.


So.. with some of these things that you present, lets find some credible people to argue against it.

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1872#msg1872 date=1229162491]
So.. with some of these things that you present, lets find some credible people to argue against it.
[/quote]

Good luck.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I find it odd that us Cloti's are so willing to accept a Zerith parring post mordem but so agaisnt a Cleris parring post mordem. (This isn't an argument of validity but rather an argument agaisnt a point that i feel should no longer be used for Cloti... I.e. we shoulnd't use Aerith being dead as a counterpoint-- if we are to accept a Zerith post mordem..

I personally have never used this argument, nor have I seen anyone else here use it. Of course you can go on loving someone after they've died. The argument isn't, "Cloud can't love a dead girl." The argument is, "where is Cloud shown to love her while she lived." Before I can see a love-beyond-death, I need to see a love during life. At best, Cloud and Aerith had a mutual interest. How are we supposed to get an eternal love out of that? And that's before we even throw in the Zack and Tifa issues.

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1872#msg1872 date=1229162491]
I never said nor admitted that the vast majority of C/A arguments were absurd. Some of them are yes.. just like some of the C/T are the same.[/quote]

I agree.. there are some crazy C/A shippers out there who argue with passion and conviction without the logic or reasoning.

You did say some. Those "some" seem to be the majority.

But I've met some C/A's out there.. who believe what they believe, who actually use argumentative case and reason to get their point across..

I believe this statement more. Yes, some are levelheaded.

And again.. I've never said ambiguity yet twice you attribute this concept to me.

Yes you did. Your entire premise of multiple valid interpretations and "lack of conclusive evidence" is rooted in the idea of ambiguity.

But I will say their IS ambiguity in the storyline.. and its not imaginary.

Only that's not what I meant. I meant what SE is saying about the story, such as the examples I gave, they are not ambiguous.

Its their.. its nearly self-evident it is there.... Your view on the subject may not see it but it exists. Why else why does such a dichotomy exist on the subject?

Because of emotional attachment. Great many people believe that in 'Harry Potter' Harry loves Hermione. They believe it so bad that when the author bluntly told them they are delusional they've said the author doesn't know what she's talking about. Where is the ambiguity in that dichotomy?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Well... one would be hardpressed to say story =/= cannon, because any extra information from the story is only supplemental to it. Supplimental in the essence that its meant to enhance. But I don't think that's the exact point you were going for.

I'm not quite sure if you understand what canon really means. First of all, "cannon" is something you shoot, "canon" however, the one I was referring to, is the truth of the story. "Extra information" only helps solidify canon, but you don't need it to determine canon. Han and Leia are a canon couple in Star Wars, and though I'm sure back in the way there were some hardcore Leia and Luke fans, few people needed extra information after Return of the Jedi to prove those two were a couple.



So, though you can play FFVII, and pretend in your own mind that Cloud has these deep feelings for Aerith, it's not the reality and what the creators intended. However, no one here is going to say there's anything wrong with feeling the way you want to for your own personal enjoyment, or that even discussing these ideas with others who feel the same is wrong.

But if you feel like testing your conviction Balthea.. why not go visit those websites that are dedicated to the viewpoints that differ from yours? Go discuss your argument to them. Sure.. you might get some of the F-wads... might even get alot... but I guarantee you you'll get at least one educated person who differs from you.... and it might be interesting to here what they have to say if you are open to it. YOu might even open yourself to ideas outside the LTD that you haven;t seen before. ANd.. if you have visited such sites.. I'd like to know which one(s). I'm interested to see your what you have read on the opposite viewpoints. Hell.. I'll even join the good fight with you if you find a site that absolutely ridiculous... because such sites ( i feel) add to the polarization.

I've debated, pages upon pages, with some of the "cetra" over the CxA forums (though, not on those forums, just the people from them). Ones who could type perfectly fine and seemed (at first) to be able to make logical conclusions. At first, I had never heard of the LTD and was shocked at their interpretations. I took them to heart and was in fact, very interested at their interpretation. However, they started to have inconsistencies, ignore information and quotes from ultimanias, and the point at which I stopped giving them any credit was when they denied the existence of Cloud's mental problems, no matter how many times and ways SE had explained them.



So, I have done what you said, and with the interest you said I should have. It, however, only changed my mind from "perhaps there is two sides" back to "it's Cloud and Tifa". If they had something to stand on, then perhaps I'd still feel the first way, but even the ones who had been debating for years couldn't answer the more simple question:"When is there proof that Cloud has feelings for Aerith?"

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

- C/T in AC and Case of Tifa
I don't really care much how well they get along or how smooth a romance they have, but the arguement that 'everything's not perfect, they're doomed to failure' plays against C/T seems like a naive judgement.

This is fiction. I'd say most people outside of shippers would care for a story where two people just fall in love and everything is fine. Even in romance fiction (or at least the good ones, IMHO) you still get some kind of conflict. Because that's what makes stories entertaining.

If having conflict is a sign of a doomed romance, fiction is filled with even more failed couples than I thought.

Plus, using CoT and basing things off that is like playing disk 1 of the original and making your mind up from it. It is simply a prologue to AC, after which everything works out in the end.

 

[Rinoa]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg1928#msg1928 date=1229199350]
the arguement that 'everything's not perfect, they're doomed to failure' plays against C/T seems like a naive judgement.[/quote]

Not only that, since when was "everything perfect" between Cloud and Aerith? The two never had a comparable relationship of any kind.

 

[Tennyo]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Rinoa link=topic=53.msg1942#msg1942 date=1229211003]Not only that, since when was "everything perfect" between Cloud and Aerith? The two never had a comparable relationship of any kind.
[/quote]

Yeah, and like...didn't Cloud punch Aerith in the face at the temple of Ancients?

Which then resulted in her running off and getting herself killed, poor thing.

 

[Lily Ella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Eh-heh. XD

But seriously, when did Cloud and Aeris have a perfect relationship? Hell, when did they even have a (romantic) relationship? How do we know that their ~could have been~ relationship would have been oh-so wunnerful and happy? How do we know if their relationship would have been a perfectly pink love with candy and rainbows? We don't. I guess some people just imagine it (read too many badly written fanfictions), and then believe it.

Even in romance fiction (or at least the good ones, IMHO) you still get some kind of conflict. Because that's what makes stories entertaining.

Couples that don't fight... don't exist. Even in them cheesy Disney movies, couples fight. It makes the couple more interesting.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Lily Ella link=topic=53.msg1945#msg1945 date=1229211978]
Couples that don't fight... don't exist. Even in them cheesy Disney movies, couples fight. It makes the couple more interesting.
[/quote]

And something that people can relate to. I find people tend to like characters they can understand and feel for because they could put themselves in that situation (not that everyone has to want to self-insert, couldn't think of a better way to word that though).

 

[null.]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

If there wasn't ambiguity... what would cause such a vast polarization?

What vast polarization?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I could see some ambiguity from just the game maybe, and if you tried drawing conclusions from stuff like FF Tactics and Kingdom Hearts 1.

But beyond that, I can't really see it.

[quote author=Lily Ella link=topic=53.msg1945#msg1945 date=1229211978]But seriously, when did Cloud and Aeris have a perfect relationship? Hell, when did they even have a (romantic) relationship? How do we know that their ~could have been~ relationship would have been oh-so wunnerful and happy? How do we know if their relationship would have been a perfectly pink love with candy and rainbows? We don't. I guess some people just imagine it (read too many badly written fanfictions), and then believe it.[/quote]

^ What I wanted to say as well, but forgot.

 

[Tennyo]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1946#msg1946 date=1229212173]
[quote author=Lily Ella link=topic=53.msg1945#msg1945 date=1229211978]
Couples that don't fight... don't exist. Even in them cheesy Disney movies, couples fight. It makes the couple more interesting.
[/quote]

And something that people can relate to. I find people tend to like characters they can understand and feel for because they could put themselves in that situation (not that everyone has to want to self-insert, couldn't think of a better way to word that though).
[/quote]

There's also the fact that couples who have problems are more realistic. If Cloud/Aerith were canon I would expect them to have just as many if not more problems than him and Tifa. If it was happily ever after with no bumps in the road ever it would be completely lame and no one with a right mind would be able to stand it.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Along the same lines is the assertion that if Cloud loved Tifa, he would have told her everything he's feeling and wanted to spend his dying days with her instead of alone. Cloud is still Cloud. I would expect fans to have a basic understanding of his psychology by now, and not conveniently forget it in order to make an argment.

And the fact is, even from their perspective he loves her in some way, whether it's as a mother, sister, friend, whatever. So is romantic love that inherently different from familial love that you can close yourself off from family and still love them, but not from a romantic lover?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=53.msg1956#msg1956 date=1229215294]
There's also the fact that couples who have problems are more realistic. If Cloud/Aerith were canon I would expect them to have just as many if not more problems than him and Tifa. If it was happily ever after with no bumps in the road ever it would be completely lame and no one with a right mind would be able to stand it.
[/quote]

About that... , in all honesty I don't ship CxA or CxT but if I did and had to ship only one, I think CxA is very cute. Plus, I don't tend to ship canon couples, cause well, they are canon. Stuff's already been done for you. XP

That's what I meant about being realistic though, that people don't want something they can't relate to, ie. extremely unrealistic.

@Isabella: I have yet to find out where this Cloud they have made up in their minds even comes from. Fake Cloud isn't romantic or interested in either girl, but you can play him leaning a little one way or the other if you do choose. To them however, Fake Cloud is the real Cloud. So... where do they get that he's romantic at all?

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

He was upset after seeing an innocent woman stabbed to death in front of him. If that isn't the epitome of romance, I don't know what is.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg1964#msg1964 date=1229216186]
He was upset after seeing an innocent woman stabbed to death in front of him. If that isn't the epitome of romance, I don't know what is.
[/quote]

Right after he almost stabbed her to death himself, and not too long after he had beaten the crap out of her.

 

[Tennyo]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1961#msg1961 date=1229216036]About that... , in all honesty I don't ship CxA or CxT but if I did and had to ship only one, I think CxA is very cute. Plus, I don't tend to ship canon couples, cause well, they are canon. Stuff's already been done for you. XP

That's what I meant about being realistic though, that people don't want something they can't relate to, ie. extremely unrealistic.[/quote]

Oh, there's nothing wrong with shipping Cloud/Aerith. I'm not saying they are too disgustingly perfect. But wouldn't even you expect them to have a few bumps along the way? That was my point. It seems like people feel as if Cloud/Aerith is perfect and without drama so that makes it canon.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg1964#msg1964 date=1229216186]
He was upset after seeing an innocent woman stabbed to death in front of him. If that isn't the epitome of romance, I don't know what is.
[/quote]

And here I thought it was being oblivious to any sort of romantic interest from her that made it romantic.

[quote author=tennywenny]Oh, there's nothing wrong with shipping Cloud/Aerith. I'm not saying they are too disgustingly perfect. But wouldn't even you expect them to have a few bumps along the way? That was my point. It seems like people feel as if Cloud/Aerith is perfect and without drama so that makes it canon.[/quote]

Personally, I don't get where that comes from. All the other canon couples aren't perfect. Even Cecil and Rosa had their arguments in FFIV.

Speaking of them, in FFIV TA, Cecil leaves Rosa and Theodore in order to protect them from a harm headed his way. Whose motivation does that sound like? Hmmm...

Ah... C/R so totally irrelevant but so very, very analogous. And the quintessential FF couple.
And anyone disputing that can enjoy a railroad spike suppository.

 

[null.]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Ah... C/R so totally irrelevant but so very, very analogous.

I think being analogous qualifies them as relevant.

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I ship Harry/Hermione, and Locke/Terra. I'm not crazy... am I?

@whoever mentioned Locke/Celes and Cloud/Aeris shippers: I always found that weird aswell. I always thought Locke/Celes was similar to Cloud/Tifa, so I always found it a little weird when Cloud/Aeris obsessers ship it.

Speaking of them, in FFIV TA, Cecil leaves Rosa and Theodore in order to protect them from a harm headed his way. Whose motivation does that sound like? Hmmm...

OT but why does S-E insist on releasing sequels/spinoffs of my favourite games onto cellphones? =___=;

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=53.msg1966#msg1966 date=1229216409]
Oh, there's nothing wrong with shipping Cloud/Aerith. I'm not saying they are too disgustingly perfect. But wouldn't even you expect them to have a few bumps along the way? That was my point. It seems like people feel as if Cloud/Aerith is perfect and without drama so that makes it canon.
[/quote]


I suppose my joke wasn't as obvious as I thought with the and all. XP But it's probably also because the Clerii lately have been on this tangent that because someone is debating the canon with them, that it means they are telling them what to ship. They don't seem to understand the difference between their shipping and what they want to make up, and what the creators intended and is true in the story.


And yes, I would imagine them having problems unlike what seems to be the common Clerith shipper mindset. Though, I ship them as she's still alive... it's shipping, I can do whatever I want.

Speaking of them, in FFIV TA, Cecil leaves Rosa and Theodore in order to protect them from a harm headed his way. Whose motivation does that sound like? Hmmm...

[/]Sounds like he doesn't love her at all... Dx[/]

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg1981#msg1981 date=1229235575]
I ship Harry/Hermione, and Locke/Terra. I'm not crazy... am I?

@whoever mentioned Locke/Celes and Cloud/Aeris shippers: I always found that weird aswell. I always thought Locke/Celes was similar to Cloud/Tifa, so I always found it a little weird when Cloud/Aeris obsessers ship it.

[/quote]

Actually, this made me remember that a CloudxAerith fan told me that Locke/Celes is much more similar to Cloud/Aerith due to the Rachael factor. Rachael was Locke's first love, but he moved on from her after she died as his heart obviously moved on to Celes. (This is supposed to show similarity to Aerith moving on from Zack. Or something.)

Oh, yeah. This certain person also made a reference to Locke's bandana being like Aerith's ribbon, and that show similarities to CloudxAerith. (Even though the ribbon is from Zack... weird...)

Funny how Locke can move on, but Cloud can't in Clerii land.
Not that he had a past love to move on from.

 

[spirit3d]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Petty little realistic problems like getting used to cohabitating with one another / bringing up children together / emotional baggage are below the Clerii. They like their problems BIG AND INSURMOUNTABLE. You know. Like being in love with the dead. Depression that spans years. An unnatural sexual attraction to flowers, because in pinkerland, nothing says true love like a huge muthaeffing road block.

Funny how Locke can move on, but Cloud can't in Clerii land.

Of course Cloud can move on! Cloud can move on from his boyish crush on Tifa, but god forbid if he moves on from Aerith.

 

[Tennyo]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I like you, spirit3d. You make me lol with your poast.

@ Balthea: Sorry, I guess I'm just slow. XD