The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Goodbye Charlie link=topic=53.msg3282#msg3282 date=1229901057]But then, as has been said, MOTP was never considered officially canon and canon has never attempted to make room for it since it was written - so why look to it as proof of anything? If SE ignores it, shouldn't we? I think it's for the best, it really is a messy little tale.
[/quote]

Im not at all against ignoring it, but Cleriths use this novella a lot in their arguments and it can be rather difficult to make them look at things in different angle.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=spirit_chaser link=topic=53.msg3283#msg3283 date=1229902317]
Im not at all against ignoring it, but Cleriths use this novella a lot in their arguments and it can be rather difficult to make them look at things in different angle.
[/quote]

In my tooth-old experience with "Clerith", there is little that will motivate their rationality because the core belief isn't rational, it's emotional. It's a lost cause. I don't mean that it a bitchy way - each to their own perspective, but narratively, the argument doesn't hold coherently, so rationally, it can't be substantiated. As with all relationships, be they figurative or real, emotional bonds don't get severed by proof.

I think the fact Maiden is the straw-clutcher just really shows how silly the whole notion is.

It's like religion - if you have Faith, you shouldn't go out to PROVE you are right. It's innate, it doesn't need proofz - hence it's called Faith. Same with the Cleris ideology, they have Faith they are right, not proof - so really, trying to "prove" it with "evidence" is about as silly as a Christian trying to prove Christ ascended to heaven by demonstrating the physics behind a rocket. You just don't do it man. Game over.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Clerith's will use Dissidia, FF Tactics, KH... all of which aren't apart of the compilation and contain nothing positive for their pairing. They will use unofficial magazines, poor translations, etc... there isn't anything that they wouldn't use as long as they can convince themselves that it's proof. Funny that they never are able to convince others, even people who are neutral and don't have a shipping preference...

 

[annacamille]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Shadowfox link=topic=53.msg3235#msg3235 date=1229864520]You could always go to the fanfiction.net forum. There's an LTD rumbling there now. They're been at the "Koibito: Lover or Nice Girl?" stage for a while now.
[/quote]
[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg3240#msg3240 date=1229866279]
I didn't know FF.net had a forum. But that's probably because I don't visit the site. But since I went looking for it

http://www.fanfiction.net/topic/23200/1134071/1/

But I don't think these people know what 'mean' actually means.

But since it's still on 'koibito means a lovely person', I'm not going to hold my breath.

For the record, I've asked about 3-4 people about it. All said the same thing, which is what I said before but cba to copypsta again But it wasn't 'a nice person'.
[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestion guys. Here was the 2nd post:

[...]
2. Cloud speaks of her 63 times after her death, meaning she must have meant so much to Cloud for him to speak of her even after her passing, for Cloud is not a very emotional person himself. [...]

... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I got such a kick out of reading that. They actually counted the number of times Cloud mentions Aeris's name after her death.

I bet clerith.com is full of lulz, too.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

That number seems really high from what I recall of my last playthrough. They are probably counting times when they "think" he's mentioning her. I recall a Clerii who told me once the Highwind scene wasn't romantic because he's thinking about another woman... what?

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Haven't you all read that affection math analysis? Should all just give up now, that thing is like... science.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

What always got me about that was that ANYTHING POSSIBLY MAYBE referencing Aerith- including apologizing for landing on the flowers- was romantic, but some of the most blatant stuff with Tifa was not given a pass.

But back on the subject of fantasy romance couples and conflicts, I give you the entire plot of The Incredibles. Hell, they've got a man grown distant from his family, keeping secrets, confrontations between man and woman... all the things that the Clerith say means a couple in a fantasy is 'doomed'. And yet, they have a happy ending. Despite never being a couple in the first place according to the Clerith.

Seriously, to take it further, just compare the AC and Incredibles character.
Cloud is Mr. Incredible, Tifa is Elastigirl, and just keep going from there.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg3299#msg3299 date=1229908542]
What always got me about that was that ANYTHING POSSIBLY MAYBE referencing Aerith- including apologizing for landing on the flowers- was romantic, but some of the most blatant stuff with Tifa was not given a pass.

But back on the subject of fantasy romance couples and conflicts, I give you the entire plot of The Incredibles. Hell, they've got a man grown distant from his family, keeping secrets, confrontations between man and woman... all the things that the Clerith say means a couple in a fantasy is 'doomed'. And yet, they have a happy ending. Despite never being a couple in the first place according to the Clerith.

Seriously, to take it further, just compare the AC and Incredibles character.
Cloud is Mr. Incredible, Tifa is Elastigirl, and just keep going from there.
[/quote]

That's a scarily good analogy. Now all we have to do is find the Incredible forums where they are having an LTD debate over who Mr Incredible truly loves (probably Aeris at a guess - she seems popular in an abstract way) and use the AC analogy on them. Awesomez.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Most of Crisis Core literally destroys the "Maiden" novella. For one, it gets the age Aerith met Zack wrong, and it totally ignores the ending of Crisis Core, which shows Aerith sensing Zack's death.

"Maiden" is so inconsistent with the Compilation, it hurts.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Apparently that makes the Compilation wrong, not Maiden, according to the Clerii, Mako.
Nevermind the 'newer overrides older' convention or 'original team beats third party'...

Which brings up another thing they say- The Ultimanias and Crisis Core were made by a 'new team' who don't know FF7, despite Nomura having massive control over CC, to the point where he forced them to remove 'on PS3' to the 'To be continued in FF7' tag.

They also said that LO wasn't "officially done" despite the oversight by Nomura and it being included with Advent Children SE...

Too bad we only got a flippant answer to 'how do you define the canon' over at FFF.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Hmm... never knew Cleriths claimed CC non-canon :-\
I thought they enjoyed Zack and Cissnei`s romance.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

CC is canon only when Zack and Cissnei are a couple. Even though she's not an alternate love interest in the slightest and that's WoG to boot.
But yes, they have said that Crisis Core is not just acanon, but that it is fanon.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

instead of doing something useful... I was reading FF_G Advent Children analysis
http://www.geocities.com/anime_art2003/CloTi_AC.html

As it turns out, Cloud has been afflicted with a terminal disease called Geostigma. Rather than spending his final days with his family and friends, Cloud chooses to seek refuge in a place where he feels closest to the flower girl he lost. He also refuses to tell anyone of his sickness or speak to anyone in regards to the deep burden he is carrying in his heart (sorrow and guilt for the death of Aerith, which he was unable to prevent).

And we see them having loads of teh holy spirit sex in the church.
Cloud never even try to make any sort of communication with her until Tifa kicks his ass into shape

a. Depressed, brooding, angsty- If Cloud was in love with Tifa and was loved in return, why would he have any reason to feel this way? Wouldn't being in love with someone make him happy? Why would he want to hurt the woman he loved by acting this way? Generally, being in love tends to make people happy, not miserable. Regardless of what issues Cloud was dealing with, if he were in love with Tifa, he would have allowed her to help him, he would have been able to share his pain with her, and he would have made some attempt to keep in touch with her. And yet Cloud did none of these things.

Clerith just skip it when SE confirm that Cloud was happy living with Tifa.
And dont give a thought that its actually Aerith who make him feel miserable (not intentionally of course)

b. Moving into Aerith's church after he became ill with Geostigma and not telling Tifa about it- If Cloud truly loved Tifa, he would be able to depend on her when he was faced with a crisis such as this. If Cloud truly loved Tifa, he would want to spend the time he had left with her [at Seventh Heaven], not in an abandoned church that constantly reminds him of another woman. When Cloud was faced with a terminal illness, he ran to Aerith (or the closest thing he could get to Aerith- her church, where they were first properly introduced). Why would he do this if Tifa is the one he loves?

Duh, please show as at least one scene where Cloud remembers Aerith.
And again - Cleriths dont read the Ultimanias.

c. Losing the will to live- Why would Cloud lose his will to live if he had something or someone worth living for? Tifa says herself that Cloud has chosen not to fight and was going to "give up and die". If Cloud truly loved Tifa, she would have been enough motivation for him to fight to live. This point alone is enough proof that there is nothing romantic going on between Cloud and Tifa.

Not wishing to be a burden to Tifa.
Suicidely depressed Cloud is easy to be used as an evidence - note to SE.

d. Rejecting the company of others- In the movie, Cloud refuses to answer Tifa's calls to his mobile phone. He listens to her messages and doesn't even call her back. We also see, in one scene, that Cloud's other friends have tried to call him and have been unanswered. If Tifa was Cloud's chosen love, wouldn't he make an effort to speak with her? However, we see that Tifa gets no special treatment. Cloud obviously doesn't consider her to be any different than the rest of his friends, does he? In fact, in one scene, the only voice that is able to comfort and reassure Cloud is the voice of Aerith.

Dream on, Cleriths, dream on...

e. Refusing help when it is offered

Hoho, Cloud smiling at Tifa and reaching out for her in the BahamutShin fight scene - he SO refused her help! :

f. Feeling completely alone. Why was it that Cloud felt so completely alone if he supposedly had Tifa as his love? Why was it that only after realizing that Aerith had never left his side (the ending of AC) that Cloud states, "I'm not alone... not anymore...."

Why was it that Cloud felt so completely alone if he supposedly had Aerith as his love?
Why was it that only after Tifa spoke to Cloud he starts doing something about his past?

2. "Oh, really??? Well, Tifa was confirmed to be Cloud's lover by the creators!"

This section was getting rather large, so I gave it its own page. For information on the rabid CloTi lie that Cloud and Tifa were confirmed to be lovers/sweethearts/or anything else of that nature by the creators, please go here: Koibito.

Cleriths read Ultimanias!

3. "But it was confirmed that Cloud and Tifa are 'together'!"

Once again... no. Actually, the quote that CloTis are referring to here is from Reunion Files:

Nojima explains, "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged. Two years is too short to forget the past completely, but it's still a pretty long time... And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little." The reason Nojima narrowed the location down to the area surrounding their house, he says, was to create a sense of crisis close to home.

Nojima was speaking of locations here, people.

Yeah, saying two people are going to be together is very much up to interpretation.

4. "B-but, Cloud and Tifa are raising children together!"

Wrong again. Barret and Tifa are raising Marlene together.

5. "There is a picture of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel all happy together as a family!"

*Falls over laughing* XD Okay, the picture in question shows Tifa leaning down with her arms around Denzel and Marlene with Cloud standing a good 2-3 feet away from them looking uncomfortable and morose. Honestly, if this is the best evidence you guys have, then just give up now.

*gives up* =D

6. "Cloud understands at the end of AC that he will never be alone again, because he has Tifa and he rides off to return to her!"

*Sighs* Stupid people make my brain sad. XD Okay, let me explain the ending of AC to you. Cloud has just spent the last few minutes with Aerith and Zack. From the moment Cloud's eyes land on Aerith, Tifa is completely ignored. Aerith tells Cloud that everything will be alright, smiles tenderly at him, and then walks into the light. Zack waves at Cloud and follows Aerith out of the church and back into the Lifestream. It is during this moment that Cloud states:

"I know. I'm not alone... not anymore...."

So... was there some sort of image of Tifa here? No. Cloud was completely focused on Aerith. His face is peaceful and his smile is sweet. Cloud is healed of his injuries and his heart has finally mended.

Sometimes I wish I had an imagination to match the ones of Cleriths 8)

7. "Cloud takes a day off to spend with Tifa!!!"

Um, no.

=D

9. "Cloud rescues Tifa in the church and a romantic scene ensues of them lying in flowers!"

Are you saying that Cloud wouldn't rush to rescue Barret or Yuffie???

:

b. Cloud's smile at Aerith is much, much longer and receives special focus. Yep, that's right. While Cloud's expression didn't change a bit when Tifa smiled at him, Cloud's expression changed into his most wondrous yet the moment Aerith appeared on screen. Tifa completely faded into the background the moment Cloud spotted Aerith and his attention was focused totally on her.

Im starting to think that I have a different version of AC in which Cloud smiles after seeing Aerith and Zack returning into Lifestream together and never directly at Aerith.
Also in the version I have Cloud and Tifa smile at each other.

Srry, it was long and boring but I couldnt resist =D

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Wait, which scene is the only one where Aerith's voice comforts Cloud?

And how does 'Barret entrusted Marlene's care to Cloud and Tifa' mean Barret and Tifa are raising her together?

Oh, and fuck yes, Reminiscence literally tells us Cloud is taking the day of to spend with Tifa (and likely the kids too). The rest I can't even be arsed to care about.
At least not until she determines which Japanese friend- I mean source and thus which of her several wrong definitions of Koibito she's going to use. Or reads the ultimanias. Or the On the Way to a Smile Novellas, in their entirety. Or stops lying out of her cronies' asses.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Wait, which scene is the only one where Aerith's voice comforts Cloud?

Apparently its the scene where Cloud hears Aerith`s voice in his mind telling him to let go of his guilt.

And how does 'Barret entrusted Marlene's care to Cloud and Tifa' mean Barret and Tifa are raising her together?

Clerith logics in action

Oh, and fuck yes, Reminiscence literally tells us Cloud is taking the day of to spend with Tifa (and likely the kids too).

For your better understanding, biased Cloti:
`Reminiscence also shows Cloud's motorbike parked outside of Aerith's flower field as he makes the phone call to Tifa telling her that he's taking the day off tomorrow, rather than rushing home today. The sun is still shining brightly in this scene, so it appears to be happening during early or mid-day. Since Cloud says that he only has one more delivery to make to Midgar, it's easy to assume that Cloud has stopped outside the flower field to spend the rest of the day with Aerith.` FF_G @ clerith.com

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg3249#msg3249 date=1229893099]

There's a lot of scenes but you guys played the game and didn't think so, so it would be a waste of time for me to point them out.I'll just said this when Cloud met Aerith the first thing he noticed were her eyes and he thought they were impressive. When he brought the flower from her she smiled and he thought it was worth the 1 gil that he payed just to see her smile. And that was only in their first meeting, then later on he described her smile as a flower, her laughter as innocent. All this time if he was in love with Tifa why was he paying so much attention to Aerith? I mean why would he agree to a date with a woman he has no interest in whatsoever? And when Aerith accidently blurted it out when they were captured by Shinra, Cloud didn't even bother to explain it to Tifa that it wasn't like that.

wtf?
[/quote]

As Isabella said, all that first stuff are quotes from the little diary sections of the FFVII Dismantled/Kaitai Shinsho book. By Benny Matsuyama lolz

Benny Matsuyama = massive Aerith fanboy. True fact.

Wouldn't being in love with someone make him happy?

I always love the rose-tinted 'when you're in love with someone, everything is dandy' thing, especially when in reference to fiction.

I think people should stop trying to look up 'risque' and 'koibito', and start looking up 'conflict'.

And again - Cleriths dont read the Ultimanias.

Not your Ultimanias. You can only trust a C/A fan to give you a truly unbiased version.

Tifa says herself that

I thought Tifa didn't understand Cloud, like, at all? Who trusts what she says!

Nojima was speaking of locations here, people.

I like how it ignores the bit directly after that: "Everybody would be back home where they belonged." Back where they belong? Cloud, with Tifa?

Re: picture of Cloud and family: Random pictures of possibly-flower fields on the wall in the backgroud = Cloud pines for Aerith.

Family picture (ignoring moody Cloud, because we're not bothering with conflict/character development nonsense), which Cloud keeps in his office, and gets actual focus in the film = lolz, nothing.

Wait, which scene is the only one where Aerith's voice comforts Cloud?

On this subject. I don't see why people aren't see that it was multiple people who helped Cloud.

Tifa: got Cloud to get out of the house and go to save the kids.
Aerith: got Cloud to consider letting it go.
Marlene/Vincent: got Cloud to decide to give it a chance.

Never mind that this was already said by staff, wasn't it?

Question:
Why is 'undying feelings' when in reference to Aerith mean romance, but all the instances of 'feelings' in reference to Tifa can mean anything? You don't know what kind of feelings they were, they could have been in the past.

And why are people looking backwards (Dismantled, old pre-release interviews or magazines) for proofz?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Reminiscence also shows Cloud's motorbike parked outside of Aerith's flower field as he makes the phone call to Tifa telling her that he's taking the day off tomorrow, rather than rushing home today. The sun is still shining brightly in this scene, so it appears to be happening during early or mid-day. Since Cloud says that he only has one more delivery to make to Midgar, it's easy to assume that Cloud has stopped outside the flower field to spend the rest of the day with Aerith.`

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXA6ds7YZx8"]YouTube - The Joker laugh[/ame]

 

[Lily Ella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Speaking of Dismantled though... what does he say about/think about Tifa?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I only remember the last one, where he said that Tifa taught him that he wasn't alone or something.

And we all know what that means.

Re: Cloud and Tifa being together. I forgot. Literally, it would just mean that they are together, in the same place.

But 'to become together' (issho ni naru) is a phrase meaning 'to become man and wife'.

I'm just throwing it out there Mostly to say, translating things literally doesn't always get you very good results. (Not talking about this case in particular, just the general trend to do things word for word.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I'm curious to see the diary sections, actually. Didn't he do the Selphie ones for FFVIII too? And has he been on an SE project since UO, or was Maiden the straw that broke the literati's back?

 

[Lily Ella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Didn't he do all the diary entries? I remember Sheila saying that he doesn't seem to get the characters at all, and that no one really pays attention to them (the diary entries), and/or takes them seriously anyway.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Why don't they ask why?

Nojima was certain Cloud and Tifa would be together, physically in the same place. Where they belonged. WHY was Nojima certain of this? What led him to this conclusion?

 

[Lily Ella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

WHY was Nojima certain of this?

Because Tifa is his mommy, duh! A mommy should always be with her children.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Between his dates with Aerith Cloud should live somewhere.

 

[Cthulhu]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Holy shit @ thread page count increase over the weekend. You lot are nuts and will be banned because of it, .