The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Zee]

He wanted her to stay in the city when he was going to go after Tifa and save her too. So I don't think that's anything he was hiding, Aerith knew when she was alive that Cloud wanted to protect his friends and etc.

Exactly -- the desire to protect those friends he met (even while he was messed up), to stay for Tifa's sake, to keep Aeris out of danger, are all qualities of the real Cloud, despite how much he tried to keep up the charade of "I don't give a damn about anyone".

tbh Celes I don't understand where this mother talk is coming from, if what we're discussing is Cloud's personality. I believe it was brought up before but Tifa directly connects her motherly feelings towards Cloud. It doesn't diminish either one of their roles as a romantic interests. On Aeris' part, being dead does.

Aerith thinks about all of the things that make Cloud unique (more than his gesture and walk), and awakens Zack. She admits she doesn't know Cloud, even.

It was his gesutres that Cloud took, which is why it started bringing up Zack, since that's who Cloud tried to emulate. But even after this, there is no indication she has renouced her love for Cloud, and she still tells Zack that Cloud is who she prefers. Aeris is pretty blunt and upfront about things - if she realized there was nothing unique about Cloud she loved and it was only Zack, I'd like to think that would have been addressed.

Also, even if we exclude Maiden from the argument, CoL still says that she is in love with him - so there must be some part of him she saw enough to love.

And on the other side (considering Maiden uncanon) it still connects as Cloud's Mother said that he belonged with a woman who was like a Mother, and who was older than him. Aerith meets both of those qualities. However, Cloud's response to that was:
"Not interested."

I think you're overanalyzing a little bit. No teenage guy wants to be told by his mom "I should set you up with a girl like me."

What I'm saying is basically that there is a lot messed up with Cloud, but I don't think it's so fogged up that he can't form relationships with people, or that they can't form one with him. After all, most of his friendships were made on disk one, and they still seem to hold the same meaning to him before and after the Lifestream. The only difference is he is more open and less trying to be a hardass.

And I just want to note that I totally respect what you're saying, if I came off as mean anywhere up there.

Nono! It's cool, I enjoy discussing these things with you. =)

 

[Celes Chere]

tbh Celes I don't understand where this mother talk is coming from, if what we're discussing is Cloud's personality. I believe it was brought up before but Tifa directly connects her motherly feelings towards Cloud. It doesn't diminish either one of their roles as a romantic interests. On Aeris' part, being dead does.

Me either, must have got to ranting. I think I was trying to protect Zerith after I said that Aerith had a desire to meet the real Cloud. I actually disagree though, I think Aerith's Mother role turns me away from Clerith romantically the most. (Well, one of the highest reasons)

It was his gesutres that Cloud took, which is why it started bringing up Zack, since that's who Cloud tried to emulate. But even after this, there is no indication she has renouced her love for Cloud, and she still tells Zack that Cloud is who she prefers. Aeris is pretty blunt and upfront about things - if she realized there was nothing unique about Cloud she loved and it was only Zack, I'd like to think that would have been addressed.

Yes, he did take those. But he took parts of his memory and personality as well. It's more than just the way he gestures, as proven by those quotes back over thar. I believe that there is, in quotes like these:

Spoiler

The dull life in the Slum, the love with a SOLDIER who fell from the sky.

In CC, Aerith is just a 15-year-old girl. Under the surveillance from Shinra, who wanted to worm out the location of the Promise Land from the Ancients. Growing flowers seems trivial but it brought her joy while she lived at the Sector 5 Slums. At that chosen day, she accidentally met Zack, SOLDIER 1st Class, and they were attracted to each other…

Quote: text near img of Aerith's pointing to the Church's roof
Just like Cloud in FF7, Zack fell to Aerith’s Church. Meeting him brings along her first love.
Quote: text near img of Aerith's talking, saying "Everyman would notice the flowers, I mean, normally."
Inspired by the flowers that she forbids trampling, they planed to sell flowers at the market. In CC, Aeirth used to say that flowers are indispensable.
Quote: text near img of Aerith holding Zack
Aerith gently embraced Zack, who came back sad. The atmosphere makes them feel like a couple....




Quote:
[ ν ] - εуλ 0000

(Age 15)

·CC - Midgar

She met Zack in the Sector 5 church, and became very
intimate with him.


The "girlfriend" reported at the parent's house.

6-7 years prior to FFVII, Zack's "I've managed to get a girlfriend" letter was left out in the parents' home. If it was 6-7 years ago, it was about the time where he met Aerith in CC... Does that mean the girlfriend was Aerith?


Quote:
To Dad and Mom,
How are you?
I'm sorry for suddenly rushing out of the village. The truth is that I really wanted to become a SOLDIER. I thought that saying that would worry you . . . I'm now fulfilling my dreams and working hard as a SOLDIER.

P.S. I've managed to get a girlfriend.

-Zack


Quote:
Zack seems to have a number of girlfriends, but especially informing his home means there's no doubt that the partner is a special one.


Quote:
As a result of being able to surmise everything from each small deed, Aerith, who was in love with Zack, might perhaps have been jealous many times seeing all that...

The girl pretty as flowers blooms in Zack’s mind.

Quote:
The destined encounter with Zack makes them becomes the irreplaceable existence to each other.

Quote:
The chosen day, Zack suddenly fell from the roof of the Church in the Slum. His bright confidence immediately catches her mind, and they start a relationship as a couple.

Quote:
Aerith honestly expresses her good feeling to Zack straight out, and that also makes his heart skip a beat.

Quote:
Selling flowers will richen both wallet and streets?

Aerith’s interest is taking care of flowers, but flowers rarely bloom in Slum because the sky is covered by the Plate. Aerith’s dream is to plant a lot of flowers around the Slum—for such a dream, Zack suggests that she should sell those flowers she plants, and not just around the Slum, but make the whole Midgar full of flowers. His plan that “If Midgar is full of flowers, then your wallet will be full too!” opens up a gate to a new world to Aerith.

Quote:
The more Aerith knows about Zack, the more she’s attracted by him. Her manner toward Zack is also sweet.

Quote:
Repeating Zack’s look with Cloud’s.

Being an Ancient, Aerith did her utmost to save the Planet, even sacrificed life—in FF7, the impression of Aerith being such a tragic heroine is strong. Nevertheless, the most significant link to FF7 is the conversations about Cloud. The reason why she’s a flower girl when she first meets Cloud, the beginning of love with her first love, Zack, and the reason she saw Zack in Cloud—all those things we don’t know in FF7 are made clear in CC.

Text: Aerith asks Cloud to be her bodyguard. Does her “one date” as the payment repeat what Zack used to say to her?

Quote:
*Text near the img of Zack and Aerith in CC:
Aerith never talks about her bitterness but lives brightly. It is growing by degrees into inseparable relationship.

Nojima: The setting that “falling from the roof of the Church” repeats Aerith’s encounter with Cloud was decided in the beginning. Though we’re talking about love, they are still young back then and there’s no time to describe “how they become fond of each other” in the game. So I made it like “falling into a sudden crush.”

Me: In the game guide it talks about Zack and Aeris being a "star-crossed pair". =D They are talking about the "touching scene" about the 23 wishes. x] Also, on Aeris' profile, her quote is,
"I feel safe, as long as you're with me, Zack."

Nojima: However, Zack did not appear only for the reason as a key to the puzzle. The setting of “Aerith overlaps Cloud with her first love” and Zack as the key character are settled before I joined the team of development.

All of the DMW memories of Aerith:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vXro4MTgs


In Crisis Core, there is a fanclub of Zack fans that forms called "Hero". When Zack goes missing and is reported "dead", they interview "A girl who is very close to Zack". (This is in a club e-mail you get)

When they interview her, one of the things Aeris says is:

"Zack, my wagon broke... so I will now continue to sell flowers in a basket."

Most especially these ones:

Repeating Zack’s look with Cloud’s.

Being an Ancient, Aerith did her utmost to save the Planet, even sacrificed life—in FF7, the impression of Aerith being such a tragic heroine is strong. Nevertheless, the most significant link to FF7 is the conversations about Cloud. The reason why she’s a flower girl when she first meets Cloud, the beginning of love with her first love, Zack, and the reason she saw Zack in Cloud—all those things we don’t know in FF7 are made clear in CC.

Text: Aerith asks Cloud to be her bodyguard. Does her “one date” as the payment repeat what Zack used to say to her?

Nojima: The setting that “falling from the roof of the Church” repeats Aerith’s encounter with Cloud was decided in the beginning. Though we’re talking about love, they are still young back then and there’s no time to describe “how they become fond of each other” in the game. So I made it like “falling into a sudden crush.”

Nojima: However, Zack did not appear only for the reason as a key to the puzzle. The setting of “Aerith overlaps Cloud with her first love” and Zack as the key character are settled before I joined the team of development.

Also, I don't see how one can see Maiden canon with all of the mistakes it contains. One of the biggest ones imo, not knowing that Zack was dead. And then upon seeing him dead, she doesn't even care. Do people really believe that Aerith is that heartless? =/
And let's say that it IS canon. I believe the fact that the quotes I listed written after Maiden stating they are destiny, inseparable, and that Zack will always be by her side, negate what Maiden has to offer.

CoL still says that she is in love with him - so there must be some part of him she saw enough to love.

I have an honest question, but it might be really stupid. Who is narrating COL? I am really confused about it, tbh.

I think you're overanalyzing a little bit. No teenage guy wants to be told by his mom "I should set you up with a girl like me."

Well, I suppose that's true.

What I'm saying is basically that there is a lot messed up with Cloud, but I don't think it's so fogged up that he can't form relationships with people, or that they can't form one with him.

I agree with this, though I believe the real Cloud is buried deep. I don't think an emotion so strong as love, can be formed during the time that he's . Though, looking over that one quote you posted about the real Cloud's personality showing through, I believe more that the real Cloud could have been present during some parts of the game, and not just lingering in the fake-Cloud's mind. I believe those times are rare and scarce, however. I believe more that the real Cloud is sort of... watching through someone else's eyes. If that makes sense.

Nono! It's cool, I enjoy discussing these things with you. =)

Awright.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

I believe it was brought up before but Tifa directly connects her motherly feelings towards Cloud.

Well I don't think that being somewhat maternal to a man means you can only be maternal. You see it all the time on television shows and in real life that the woman will often mother not only her children but her husband/lover as well.

Tifa's maternal feelings are not the only ones directly applied to Cloud though. So are Aerith's and to a larger extent.

Showing up in front of people feeling pained and confused,
Her figure seems like a loving mother.

For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid. In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world.

These are in Aerith's profile, and it explains her motivations in Advent Children film. Why are they not saying that she comes as a lover BEFORE a maternal, protective force to help Cloud recover?

It still doesn't cancel out whatever romantic feelings she may have for Cloud, but it IS meaningful that they dwell on this aspect of feelings for Cloud way more with Aerith than they do Tifa. With Tifa these feelings are much more clearly put in a secondary role.

btw, can anyone point to where I can find the translation of MotP? I want to comment but I need to see it again.

 

[Vendel]

Out of this whole "real Cloud" argument I have seen the only thing that you can prove was from the real Cloud was his aloofness. And maybe his desire to protect.

Even his memories are not his own. They are a mixture of Zack and Tifa's. Sure cloud (eventually) remembers the promise. But Tifa didn't know just how important it was to Cloud. Thus Cloud didn't know how important it was to him until the lifestream event. The same could be said about his feelings for her. Tifa came to believe they were childhood friends. So that is what Cloud believed.

The only time (for sure)on disc one you see the real Cloud is when he talks to himself. Although I would argue when he is in the middle of his Sephy induced breakdown Clouds real personality begins to show.


EDIT:Also did someone seriously bring up that Tifa thinks she is Clouds mother again? Ugh....

 

[A]

A translation of MoTP an be found here:

http://cff7.wordpress.com/2008/10/14/final-fantasy-vii-the-maiden-who-travels-the-planet-eng/

 

[Zee]

I actually renounced Maiden a while back in favor of CoL, but Maiden does have a bit more detail in terms of Aeris' own thoughts. Still, I don't count it as strict canon now that it has a replacement.

From the quote you provided, yes, the nature of Cloud's entrance into her life did remind her of Zack, on top of the gestures he stole. It's natural since Zack had such an impact on her life - she says herself she saw Zack in Cloud. However if she's also saying she's starting to notice (and appreciate) the differences, does it matter?

And again, if canon sources continuously state it's Cloud she's in love with, then we have to assume there is something in him she did see and come to care about.

I have an honest question, but it might be really stupid. Who is narrating COL? I am really confused about it, tbh.

Black is Sephiroth's POV, White is Aeris'. =)

I don't think an emotion so strong as love, can be formed during the time that he's .

lol! Well, I wouldn't pin his feelings down as love - it could be a crush, or just close friendship since the nature of their relationship is so fleeting, but if he does consider her someone so important to him then I think on some level the real Cloud connected with her.

I believe more that the real Cloud is sort of... watching through someone else's eyes. If that makes sense.

It does!

Also, I don't see how one can see Maiden canon with all of the mistakes it contains. One of the biggest ones imo, not knowing that Zack was dead. And then upon seeing him dead, she doesn't even care. Do people really believe that Aerith is that heartless? =/

Well when they both meet each other, it's like "Holy crap, hi! ...Wait, fuck, we're dead". They're both not happy about it, but these are two of the most positive characters, and they are focused on trying to help Cloud.

And let's say that it IS canon. I believe the fact that the quotes I listed written after Maiden stating they are destiny, inseparable, and that Zack will always be by her side, negate what Maiden has to offer.

There's also quotes in CC Ultimania that describes it as "plantonic" or "young love". Even in the quote you provided, it's described as falling into a "crush".

ashdaslf It sounds like I'm diminishing the relationship, but I'm really not trying to. Yes, it was important and great while it lasted, but I think there's a happy medium between "summer fling" and "eternal love" that Zack/Aeris fall into. I think it was serious, but I don't think Aeris is totally incapable of loving another man.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Um, I haven't read through, so I don't know about all of what Zee and McChanny and Drake interpret as Clerith or don't, but I wanted to know if a Clerith could give me an explanation.

.....Can someone explain the Aerith's soul is located inside Cloud's body theory in detail?

 

[Vendel]

.....Can someone explain the Aerith's soul is located inside Cloud's body theory in detail?

Taking a statement out of context to show Cloud and Aerith are always together.

It was never meant to literally mean her spirit energy "lives" on inside him. Just her memory.

 

[Zee]

....Can someone explain the Aerith's soul is located inside Cloud's body theory in detail?

...

I honestly can't help you on that one.

 

[Eerie]

I feel the same as Vendel in regards to Cloud's personality in Disc One - I also think that's why the player had such choices too, because he was this personality. The real Cloud was buried deep down, and only surfaced a bit - "not interested" and, me think, the will to protect his friends, although that could ALSO comes from Zack.

It doesn't mean that the bonds that he forms in Disc One mean nothing - hell no way, he still remembers everything - but his true personality does show up after the Lifestream event.

It doesn't mean that Aerith was a fool - she was attracted to the Zack inside of him, after all, and yet still wanted to meet Cloud. Also, I feel that CoLW - Aerith POV BTW - is to be placed after FF7 and before she finds Zack in the Lifestream. At that time, yes, she was still in love with Cloud - but I don't think she ever stopped loving Zack either. Cloud is still someone she cherishes and wants to protect - for Zack, like her, it's too late!
And since ACC is to be placed after CoL, then there's nothing that says that Aerith is still in love/infatued with Cloud - especially with the ending SE put in there. What we see from Aerith to Cloud - I can't really describe this as romantic. Friendship, care, yes. Romance? She joked when he called her mother, I have a hard time feeling that there's still this love from her, seeing how she reacts and laughs with Zack ._.

 

[A]

From the quote you provided, yes, the nature of Cloud's entrance into her life did remind her of Zack, on top of the gestures he stole. It's natural since Zack had such an impact on her life - she says herself she saw Zack in Cloud. However if she's also saying she's starting to notice (and appreciate) the differences, does it matter?

There's nothing to support that she knows the real Cloud; all she knows is that he's not the real Cloud - she never actually got to meet the real Cloud before she died, but she did know that the Cloud that she was with was just a disguise; Cetras are able to distinguish it. Not only that, but Sephiroth used Cloud in order to get closer to Aerith - the Jenova mimicking cells helped the ones who targeted Cetras in order to demolish them, thus Cloud becoming influenced in order to become closer to Aerith as well.

Being able to tell that Cloud isn't acting like the real Cloud and actually getting to meet the real Cloud - that's a huge difference. And the real, raw Cloud wasn't revealed until the Lifestream scene.

 

[Zee]

She joked when he called her mother, I have a hard time feeling that there's still this love from her, seeing how she reacts and laughs with Zack ._.

It's in Aeris' nature to joke around, I don't see why she would bother getting offended or anything. She just says "He's too big to adopt" and shrugs it off.

Since CoL and ACC happen so close together, I think it's safe to assume she still harbors love for Cloud. She does come back to tease console him, and she says it meant a lot simply that he wanted to see her.

EDIT:Also did someone seriously bring up that Tifa thinks she is Clouds mother again? Ugh....

Actually, if you've been keeping score, I always say that it doesn't really matter. I just find it hypocritical that what motherly means for one girl doesn't apply to the other.

Even his memories are not his own. They are a mixture of Zack and Tifa's.

Cloud has a memory about a conversation he had with his mother. That's a memory that is clearly his own.

There's nothing to support that she's noticing the differences;

What?

"Two completely different people but look exactly the same, the way you walk, gesture..."
"But You're different..."
"Things are different..."

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

@Vendel
Yeah, that's what I think, too. I was watching that disc that came with my sister's AC movie, and the staff interviews made it all so clear what they meant by that!

And they say the same thing for AVALANCHE and all. Aerith is cherished and her memory and legacy live on in them. Of course they each have their own, unique relationship, but Cloud isn't alone in keeping her alive inside him.

@Zee
That's okay. Maybe I can ask another Clerith later if we ever manage to lure another in, lol!

 

[A]

Actually, if you've been keeping score, I always say that it doesn't really matter. I just find it hypocritical that what motherly means for one girl doesn't apply to the other.

Although I have to agree with you on this, Aerith being referred to as a mother and what motherly means to Cloud/the girls weighs more than what it means to Tifa/Cloud.

Concerning the memories; Cloud's voice comes out randomly out of nowhere at times, as his memories come out randomly as well. He's not himself, but let's say it's almost like amnesia.

What?

"Two completely different people but look exactly the same, the way you walk, gesture..."
"But You're different..."
"Things are different..."

I worded it wrong:

Being able to tell that Cloud isn't acting like the real Cloud and actually getting to meet the real Cloud - that's a huge difference. And the real, raw Cloud wasn't revealed until the Lifestream scene.

 

[Vendel]

Cloud has a memory about a conversation he had with his mother. That's a memory that is clearly his own.

But you noticed it keeps getting broken up. The only explanation is that he simply can't remember something that contradicts what he got from Zack and Tifa.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Actually, if you've been keeping score, I always say that it doesn't really matter. I just find it hypocritical that what motherly means for one girl doesn't apply to the other.

Yes if anyone truly argues that Tifa may have motherly feelings and still be a lover but Aerith cannot then that is hypocritical. But I think most of the time they are just trying to see which one is more prevalent with the woman. Which is their main motivation and which SE sees as predominate.

That was more before CoL came and said that Aerith loves Cloud roamntically. So there was not much that said that Aerith had any other motivation than appearing as a maternal presence to Cloud and aid him.

Now though, I guess both women are even pretty much right? So I guess there's not too much point to it at all anymore?

////mothermothermothermother////

^this to signal that I know i'm being repetitive. Soooo I'll go into the other points, too.

 

[A]

Not really. Even though both are described as mothers, Aerith is referred to as one or described as one much more fluently and often.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

But if CoL says she also loves Cloud in a romantic way, then isn't it a moot point now?

It did say that right? :/

 

[Celes Chere]

Also did someone seriously bring up that Tifa thinks she is Clouds mother again? Ugh....

That was pretty much my fault. =P My apologies.

And again, if canon sources continuously state it's Cloud she's in love with, then we have to assume there is something in him she did see and come to care about.

Which canon sources continuously state this? I keep seeing Zerith, Zerith, Zerith, until COL which makes me wonder. Who's narrating in the story, and why isn't Zack even mentioned? And no, it doesn't matter. I believe that Aerith formed a special bond with Cloud, giving her the more than friends, less than lovers feel.

Also, what Ali said.

Black is Sephiroth's POV, White is Aeris'. =)

Ohh, alright, thanks. =)

Well when they both meet each other, it's like "Holy crap, hi! ...Wait, fuck, we're dead". They're both not happy about it, but these are two of the most positive characters, and they are focused on trying to help Cloud.

Lol, well even though they're the most positive characters... looking at all of the emotion portrayed in Crisis Core and beyond makes me wonder why Maiden was devoid of those emotions. Sure, Cloud is the main concern at the time, but seeing your dead bofriend after years would be more shocking than just "Oh, you're dead. Eh, oh well."

There's also quotes in CC Ultimania that describes it as "plantonic" or "young love". Even in the quote you provided, it's described as falling into a "crush".

I don't think I've ever seen this platonic quote, only heard of it. Could I see it, please? And what part of the game is it referring to, is also important. : ) That quote is talking about the first meeting. The other quotes describe how much it grew.

I think it was serious, but I don't think Aeris is totally incapable of loving another man.

I don't think so either, but don't you find it a bit strange that the man she is capable of loving reminds her or Zack, and falls through her roof the exact way he did years ago? I think that's torture to Aerith on the creators part, tbh. It's like bringing up her emotions for Zack all over again. Also, I'm gonna bring this up again:

Nojima: However, Zack did not appear only for the reason as a key to the puzzle. The setting of “Aerith overlaps Cloud with her first love” and Zack as the key character are settled before I joined the team of development.

So, there you have it. Zack is the key character, and Aerith overlaps Cloud with him.

It was never meant to literally mean her spirit energy "lives" on inside him. Just her memory.

Lol, I never understood why people took this literally. Aerith living inside of Cloud is a bit creepy... her memory living on in his heart is what I take it as. Since it's stated that she is a woman he will never forget, and that they wanted Aerith to be by his side in spirit.

 

[A]

You can conjure many other statements for this - we don't know exactly when Case of Lifestream takes place, so it's hard to say if she thought of that/stated that before or after she met Zack, coming to the realization that she loved the fake Cloud all along. Another can be that she loves both of them. There are endless possibilities, I don't think SE intended to make it clear to which what Aerith met. If it is true, it most likely is a one sided thing. And Aerith doesn't bother acting on it either; instead of her usual flirty nature in ACC, she comes to help Cloud and console him, more than anything else. Her actions overrule her thoughts towards Cloud, which there is nothing but consoling him and acting more of a 'guardian angel.'

 

[Zee]

But you noticed it keeps getting broken up. The only explanation is that he simply can't remember something that contradicts what he got from Zack and Tifa.

Well what I've been saying is Cloud is fractured, but not gone. He does have his own memories - memories of his mother, memories of what really happened in Nibelheim trying to get out. In the Lifestream, we see his childhood, not Tifa's mockup of it.

Being able to tell that Cloud isn't acting like the real Cloud and actually getting to meet the real Cloud - that's a huge difference. And the real, raw Cloud wasn't revealed until the Lifestream scene.

I'm not trying to suggest Aeris saw all of Cloud in his rawness, if you will. But I think she saw enough of the real him to come to care about him a great deal. And since she's watching over from the Lifestream, I'd say it's a safe bet by AC she realizes who he is fully. Not like it really matters by then, but still.

Now though, I guess both women are even pretty much right? So I guess there's not too much point to it at all anymore?

Basically my feeling about it, lol.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

I guess I should read CoL again. ?? I wish they would be clear about the time.

I agree that Cloud wants to be with Tifa though. I haven't seen anywhere that he loves Aerith like that. He cares deeply for her and I don't think he was never attracted to her or has some feeling that is deeper than friendship, but they have showed what he feels and his plans for him and Tifa.

 

[A]

I'm not trying to suggest Aeris saw all of Cloud in his rawness, if you will. But I think she saw enough of the real him to come to care about him a great deal. And since she's watching over from the Lifestream, I'd say it's a safe bet by AC she realizes who he is fully. Not like it really matters by then, but still.

Naturally, she does care about him a great deal, as does Tifa. I would find it very strange if Aerith didn't care about him, because one can obviously perceive that even at the beginning stages of Final Fantasy VII. However, unless there's a statement to which stating that the real Cloud was there with Aerith, then I'm not sure if there was ever a real Cloud with Aerith. It's very difficult to overpass the a.) Jenova mimicking cells b.) The fact that Cloud is a puppet and his main target is Aerith, thus acting different towards her in order to get closer to her c.) He generally wasn't the real Cloud.

Well what I've been saying is Cloud is fractured, but not gone. He does have his own memories - memories of his mother, memories of what really happened in Nibelheim trying to get out. In the Lifestream, we see his childhood, not Tifa's mockup of it.

Exactly.

I guess I should read CoL again. ?? I wish they would be clear about the time.

We're given some clues to which when it is, but I cba to check right now.

 

[Vendel]

Well what I've been saying is Cloud is fractured, but not gone. He does have his own memories - memories of his mother, memories of what really happened in Nibelheim trying to get out. In the Lifestream, we see his childhood, not Tifa's mockup of it.

You missed the point. Sure Cloud still has his own memories locked up inside his head. And he can bring some of them to the surface. But as shown by his flashbacks he simply can't remember anything that contradicts his borrowed memories.

His crafted personality is the dominate one. His real one only comes out in spurts. Mostly inside his own head.

If he can't even recall most of the last conversation he had with his mother because it would have hints at the real Cloud. Then he is seriously fucked up. He is not the real Cloud. It is as simple as that.

 

[Zee]

@Celes:

Zack falls to the Church of the Slum during his mission and ends in meeting the girl Aerith, who’s trimming flowers. They both feel contented simply with each other’s company; it’s a platonic love. They think this kind of happy days would last forever, but.......

It's on Zack's profile page.

I don't think so either, but don't you find it a bit strange that the man she is capable of loving reminds her or Zack, and falls through her roof the exact way he did years ago? I think that's torture to Aerith on the creators part, tbh. It's like bringing up her emotions for Zack all over again.

I actually found it to be good character development for Aeris in that it forced her to deal with Zack's death and move on. In the end it's not Zack she's trying to be with - it's Cloud. She doesn't want to be with a cardboard cutout of her ex.

@Vendel

No one is saying Cloud's not fucked up, all I'm saying is that as fractured as Cloud is, it's still him in there. He's the one who struggles to keep up the Zack facade, he even admits this. Cloud wanted to be someone else.

Also, he did recall a good chunk of the conversation with his mother, isn't that why the player is viewing it?