The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[A]

Boys over Flowers, it's a Korean drama.

I know you're able to comprehend the word koi bito.

Koi bito koi bito koi bito.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Koi



























Bito.

All you rapids are getting it wrong.

About the LTD...

Should this thread really be called a 'Debate'? Oftentimes, it seems more of a 'Discussion'.

 

[Vendel]

Should this thread really be called a 'Debate'? Oftentimes, it seems more of a 'Discussion'.

I think it originally was Discussion. But it got changed when the "lulz" (as the kids like to say) started.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I changed it as the punchline to a joke shortly after getting database access. Discussion really is a moar appropriate title given the content of the thread, but I cba logging into the database to change it back, but if someone else changes it back I certainly won't object.

 

[mentaz]

Should this thread really be called a 'Debate'? Oftentimes, it seems more of a 'Discussion'.

well, if some cleriths actually come here and debate without never coming back again, then yes this is a debate thread.

 

[paoo]

Guys!~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLuUTvJ1F7c

And if a Clerith could join, debate, show us proofs, then.. it would be debating.
But since barerly no one is doing that.. It just shows how weak their Clerith evidence is. AMIRATE?

 

[I Am Not Me]

I like this better, xAerith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSKygu3UxdU&NR=1

I think it originally was Discussion. But it got changed when the "lulz" (as the kids like to say) started.

Heeeyyy... are you trying to say I'm a kid?!!?! D8<

...wait...

I changed it as the punchline to a joke shortly after getting database access. Discussion really is a moar appropriate title given the content of the thread, but I cba logging into the database to change it back, but if someone else changes it back I certainly won't object.

Ah. That makes sense. Kinda. Maybe that's why some people are getting too worked up on this thread. It's called a 'debate' instead of 'discussion'.

well, if some cleriths actually come here and debate without never coming back again, then yes this is a debate thread.

None of them stay for too long.

 

[paoo]

I like this better, xAerith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSKygu3UxdU&NR=1

LMAO!
I meant the Clerith pr00fz at the end of the commercial. That's why I posted mine.

 

[I Am Not Me]

LMAO!
I meant the Clerith pr00fz at the end of the commercial. That's why I posted mine.

It looked more like Clack proof to me.

 

[paoo]

It looked more like Clack proof to me.

...Now when you mention it. D:
It DOES.
ZOMG NEW CLACK EVIDENCE!!!11 MUST BE ADDED IN DA PR00FZ!

 

[Zee]

Guys!~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLuUTvJ1F7c

I hear those potions taste like shit.

Also, Thanks to Celes (?) posting that quote, I felt compelled to change my title to ~rum-dutchess~

The only thing I would actually debate or rather, discuss in this thread is this idea that Cloud is MIA on disk one, because I think it's bullshit. Plus, it makes Aeris seem like a complete nutjob who has a hard on for someone she doesn't even know.

Cloud has a bunch of personalities going on and is pretty messed up, yes, but I always thought the whole point is that he was still Cloud. Doesn't even Tifa say she believes he is the same person she grew up with, and that's why she is able to help piece himself back together in the lifestream. He's fractured, not gone.

Hell, we even see that the real Cloud is there, pretty much trying to claw his way out through schizo dream sequences all throughout disk one -- he knows what really happened, deep down. That's why in the Lifestream, Tifa doesn't have to feed him a backstory; she simply points him in the right direction and he follows the trail on his own. And of course, there's Aeris' death scene. When Cloud has such a violent emotional reaction in front of Sephiroth, the villian tells him to "stop acting like you're sad" because he "is a puppet". I think if Cloud was truly checked out, Sephiroth probably would have been right.

It's even established that Zack's memory was a base, but not the whole of him:

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.

-- Ultimania

Which makes sense, imo, because it's the real Cloud who is trying to damn hard to be cool and slick like he always thought he should be if he ever became a badass Soldier.

There's also various quotes from the Ultimanias that confirm Aeris has enough keen insight into Cloud to see the real him, at least to an extent.

jhc tl;dr sorry

 

[paoo]

Also, Thanks to Celes (?) posting that quote, I felt compelled to change my title to ~rum-dutchess~

The only thing I would actually debate or rather, discuss in this thread is this idea that Cloud is MIA on disk one, because I think it's bullshit. Plus, it makes Aeris seem like a complete nutjob who has a hard on for someone she doesn't even know.

Cloud has a bunch of personalities going on and is pretty messed up, yes, but I always thought the whole point is that he was still Cloud. Doesn't even Tifa say she believes he is the same person she grew up with, and that's why she is able to help piece himself back together in the lifestream. He's fractured, not gone.

Hell, we even see that the real Cloud is there, pretty much trying to claw his way out through schizo dream sequences all throughout disk one -- he knows what really happened, deep down. That's why in the Lifestream, Tifa doesn't have to feed him a backstory; she simply points him in the right direction and he follows the trail on his own. And of course, there's Aeris' death scene. When Cloud has such a violent emotional reaction in front of Sephiroth, the villian tells him to "stop acting like you're sad" because he "is a puppet". I think if Cloud was truly checked out, Sephiroth probably would have been right.

It's even established that Zack's memory was a base, but not the whole of him:

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting &#8220;no interests&#8221; all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud&#8217;s personality.

-- Ultimania

Which makes sense, imo, because it's the real Cloud who is trying to damn hard to be cool and slick like he always thought he should be if he ever became a badass Soldier.

There's also various quotes from the Ultimanias that confirm Aeris has enough keen insight into Cloud to see the real him, at least to an extent.

jhc tl;dr sorry

The point is, Aerith never knew who the real Cloud was.
She only knew he wasn't being himself.
And early in the game Cloud will get some kind of flashback from when he was younger and watched Tifa crying over her dad's death.
And then he gets back to the reality, and Barret and Tifa is watching him.
And then they say something like this;

Cloud: ....Tifa....
Tifa: Mmmm?
Cloud: ...No. Forget it. Let's go..

Or something.. I don't remember it clearly.
So yeah, deep inside is the real Cloud.
But didn't Cloud forget his and Tifa's promise?
Tifa needed to remind him.
I don't understand how Cloud who have the promise "etched in his memory", suddenly forgets it if he is supposted to be the real Cloud.
So I don't think Cloud know who he is, and he clearly states that he is confused about who he is in the game.
And I think Tifa wanted to believe it was the real Cloud. The one she grew up with.

 

[Zee]

I'm not suggesting Aeris knew every aspect of Cloud, but she did know the real him, and the real Cloud knew her to some extent.

I don't understand how Cloud who have the promise "etched in his memory", suddenly forgets it if he is supposted to be the real Cloud.

We can see that Cloud does have all those memories - both through the game when he has those flashes (ie reminding himself why he didn't get a chance to talk to Tifa when he was back home), and the Lifestream scene. Those are his memories, simply fractured and innacurate.

The base of his memory is screwed up, but that's separate from his own personality. It wasn't Jenova or Sephiroth or Zack who felt regret at not being able to save Tifa in the Mako Reactor (as he was telling the story on disk one). It wasn't any of them who wanted to save her when she was at Don Corneo's. It wasn't any of them who decided to stay for her sake to fulfill a promise to her, forgotten or not. That's Cloud.

And on the reverse side, we could say the same about his desire to save Aeris from Shinra, and his pain at losing her.

Cloud is confused yes, I acknowledged that, but that doesn't mean he's completely gone. He's...well, confused.

Not just that, but why would Aeris still count as one of the most important people to him if he never even truly "met" her? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm not sure if Cloud's original personality is gone so much as it's been very buried under hero!Cloud and Zackbased!Cloud and Jenova!Cloud. He's still there, somewhere, it's just that it's so buried that it's near impossible to find. I think there was maybe one instance of real!Cloud talking to the broken Cloud, and that may have been the one that told him to ask Tifa about what happened in Nibelheim. But other than that, there are the small influences to protect Tifa, which made up his 'hero' personality and his desire to help Aerith which may have been formed Zackbased!Cloud. It is clear he wants to protect both girls, and I can believe that both of those are formed from real!Cloud's basic desire to keep his friends safe.

I do think Cloud is still in there, somewhere, but I think he didn't want to show his real personality, so he made different ones to impress people he likes, namely Aerith and Tifa. Perhaps Cloud's real personality wasn't able to talk to Aerith or Tifa in the first disk, but he's still there. Buried very deeply, but there.

 

[Celes Chere]

Also, Thanks to Celes (?) posting that quote, I felt compelled to change my title to ~rum-dutchess~

Ahem, which quote was that now?

Aeris seem like a complete nutjob who has a hard on for someone she doesn't even know.

It's the truth though, Zee. Cloud is not himself, and there are a lot of quotes saying that outside of the actual game. The actual game makes it quite clear too, since that's the "OMG PLOT-TWIST" that's supposed to be surprising, but it really isn't. I don't think it makes Aerith look like a nut-job, I think it looks like what the Ultimania's have been telling us: She loves Cloud for the Zack she sees within him. She only had a desire to know the real Cloud, unfortunately for her, she died before that could happen. Tifa is the only one who was able to rescue the real Cloud- because she knows him. A lot of Clerith fans aren't willing to accept that, saying that they weren't really friends and blahblahblah. True, they knew one another for a shorter amount of time than they originally thought, but they still formed a very strong bond. If Tifa didn't know Cloud, why would Cloud open his heart to her, why would she understand him, and why would she be able to piece his mind together? Something even Aerith, a half-Cetra couldn't even do?

. Doesn't even Tifa say she believes he is the same person she grew up with, and that's why she is able to help piece himself back together in the lifestream.

No, Tifa says she senses something wrong from the start. Also, Cloud says he's the same Cloud she met in Nibelheim and Tifa responds:
"No, that's not true. Cloud... Just give me a little more time."
Tifa goes through the game hiding the fact that Cloud isn't real from him. A lot of Tifa-haters bring that fact up and try to make her look bad for it.

He knows what really happened, deep down.

Yes- this is the real Cloud physically, but mentally he is gone. Why do you suppose once Cloud is put back together again he says,
"Tifa, we finally meet again"
and before that,
"Tifa, I hope you meet the real Cloud again someday."

Of course Cloud still has memories of the people and places he went to. That's why he feels so close to Aerith.

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting &#8220;no interests&#8221; all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud&#8217;s personality.

-- Ultimania

There are more quotes than that, just look at these:

---
"Cloud
"I never was in SOLDIER."
"I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago,
about being in SOLDIER."
"I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to
SOLDIER......"
"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."

(He straightens and nods.)

Barret
"Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."
---

In FF7, Zack is deceased. He appears when Sephiroth reveals Cloud&#8217;s fragmental memory. Since Cloud already loses sight of his true self and mixes up his memory with Zack&#8217;s, Zack&#8217;s portrait is still wrapped in mystery. What kind of person is Zack? What specifically has he done? Such puzzles are answered in CC.

*Text near the img of Zack and Cloud in the truck, saying &#8220;Jack of all trades, Cloud. Let&#8217;s do whatever is requested.&#8221;:
Although the scene with Zack and Cloud in their runaway journey is added in International version, the image of Zack is still blurred.

The promise with Cloud is now made clear.

In FF7, Cloud imitates Zack&#8217;s memory and personality because Jenova cell has the ability of copying. But if you follow the storyline of CC till the end, you&#8217;ll know that it&#8217;s not simply because the effect of Jenova cells, but also there&#8217;s a firm friendship and a men&#8217;s promise between them.

-----

His personality was formed not only by the intention of concealing such self, but also by the implanted Jenova cell which twisted what Zack went through as the base. In CC, Cloud&#8217;s weak side unfolds before us: it makes us realize the influence from Zack that affects Cloud.

----

Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona.

----

A young swordsman, struggling with a fragile mind.

---

Like in BC, Cloud first appears in CC as a 14 year old ShinRa troop. While still just a grunt, he aims to be in SOLDIER. He strikes up a friendship with Zack, a SOLDIER 1st Class; what influence will he have on Cloud, that would lead to Cloud imitating Zack's personality&#8230; The events running up to that will be shown in CC.

----

As Cloud is trying to place the bomb, a mysterious voice speaks to him. Later, this same kind of mysterious voice resounds in Cloud's head in the scene where he and a voice have a conversation, and it offers him reminders. These voices are the original Cloud, as -- due to Hojo's Sephiroth Clones experiment -- Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing a conflict of multiple personalities

---

Zack's personality had a heavy influence on the formation of Cloud's personality when he was under Jenova's control.

---

Ultimanias that confirm Aeris has enough keen insight into Cloud to see the real him, at least to an extent.

No, they confirm that Aerith has the desire to know the real Cloud, and that she can sense something is wrong with him. Why else would she express her desire to meet the real Cloud in her date-scene? That should be confirmation enough that Cloud isn't himself.

I do think Cloud is still in there, somewhere,

Indeed, he is. Otherwise, the real Cloud wouldn't be talking to the fake-Cloud in his mind.

 

[Zee]

I have to dig through the game again, but I'm fairly certain when Cloud goes off on that whole, "Tifa, I hope you meet the real Cloud" he is still under the impression he is nothing more than a puppet. This is why Tifa asks for more time -- she knows he's effed up in the head, but she believes (and correctly) that Cloud is still in there.

"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."

(He straightens and nods.)

Which is exactly my point. Jenova cells made Cloud weak and open enough to confuse the truth, but it is Cloud himself who wanted to be like Zack, who keeps up the charade of a false Solider. The very fact that it was Cloud who was trying so hard tells you that he wasn't toally gone. Most of the other quotes you have provided basically say this as well. Yes, he is conflicted, but no, he's not out to lunch.

And I must ask, what does this make of all of Cloud's motivations and friendships introduced on disk one? Why should he give two shits about Aeris when the sugesstion here is they weren't even friends, if Cloud was truly not there. What about Cloud's desire to protect Tifa? To stay in Avalanche for her sake? Do you believe that to be nothing more than an illusion and a ruse as well?

As for Zack, Aeris saw something was not right with Cloud, and on the date she tells him that it's different, despite the similiarties he shows. Again, I feel the need to stress this, I'm not saying she saw the real Cloud entirely, but I think she saw just enough of the real him to seperate it from the Zack-ness he tried so hard to push.

 

[paoo]

As for Zack, Aeris saw something was not right with Cloud, and on the date she tells him that it's different, despite the similiarties he shows. Again, I feel the need to stress this, I'm not saying she saw the real Cloud entirely, but I think she saw just enough of the real him to seperate it from the Zack-ness he tried so hard to push.

Actually you said this..

There's also various quotes from the Ultimanias that confirm Aeris has enough keen insight into Cloud to see the real him, at least to an extent.

Still, I believe Aerith had the ability to see what Cloud was doing.
I think it is mentioned in the Ultimania..
Anyway~ But she didn't get to know Cloud, the only thing she knew was that Cloud was hiding his own personality and such under that ZaCloud. And she mentioned that they were completely different persons in the Date-scene.

"....I want to meet the REAL you."

Aerith wants to meet the real Cloud, but she dies too early for that.

 

[Zee]

You quoted me saying basically the same thing, lol. That she didn't know the all of him, but she did see some of the real him. However she is not able to know the whole of him while she's alive.

 

[paoo]

You quoted me saying basically the same thing, lol. That she didn't know the all of him, but she did see some of the real him. However she is not able to know the whole of him while she's alive.

To me it sounded like you twisted it a little, lulz.
Eh... So what did she see about the real Cloud?

 

[Zee]

Nah, I just clarified it.

Case Of Lifestream kind of covers it in a more condensed way than Maiden; it says she sees he has a fragile heart and that she views him as something to be protected (she wears the pants lololol).

In the game, we see his desire to protect others despite his own issues is something also admirable to her, although she tends to tease him about it mercilessly ("No! Wait! It's too dangerous!...That's Cloud's line").

 

[paoo]

Nah, I just clarified it.

Case Of Lifestream kind of covers it in a more condensed way than Maiden; it says she sees he has a fragile heart and that she views him as something to be protected (she wears the pants lololol).

In the game, we see his desire to protect others despite his own issues is something also admirable to her, although she tends to tease him about it mercilessly ("No! Wait! It's too dangerous!...That's Cloud's line").

But in CoL she was dead, and had watched Cloud. Hadn't she?
Nah, Cloud was like that from the first time he met Aerith.

-"No! I can't let you get involved into this, Aerith."

He wanted her to stay in the city when he was going to go after Tifa and save her too. So I don't think that's anything he was hiding, Aerith knew when she was alive that Cloud wanted to protect his friends and etc.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't think anyone saw the real Cloud.

Just that Aeris and Tifa were keen enough to see something was wrong with him. They both saw him emulating Zack to a degree, and that's unsettling, Aerith was better at pretending that she didn't, until she made a point of it.

 

[paoo]

They both saw him emulating Zack to a degree, and that's unsettling, Aerith was better at pretending that she didn't, until she made a point of it.

Yeah, probably she wanted to play along as it was her and Zack. <_<

 

[Celes Chere]

Okay, I'm not saying the real Cloud doesn't exist at all. Those quotes stated that Cloud is struggling with multiple personalities, and that the real Cloud speaks with the fake-Cloud in his head. Kind of like at Honey Bee Manor (depending on what door you choose) Cloud sees a vision of his real self saying: "What are you doing in a place like this?"
I believe disc one Cloud is not himself, and it's like what Nin said- The real Cloud is there, just buried very deep inside.

As for Aerith, yes, she could tell that Zack was different from Cloud, thus her expressing her desire to meet the real Cloud. However, she never does until ( or if you consider Maiden canon, it's not until Tifa sets him free that she sees who he really is) Advent Children, where she is described as a loving Mother to those who are pained and confused. Which makes sense if you connect it to Maiden, where she entrusts all of her feelings to Tifa and then smiles down on them like an affectionate Mother. I've said it before, I believe Aerith is realizing that her role is with the planet, and that she is accepting her Destiny. And on the other side (considering Maiden uncanon) it still connects as Cloud's Mother said that he belonged with a woman who was like a Mother, and who was older than him. Aerith meets both of those qualities. However, Cloud's response to that was:
"Not interested."
In FFVII, I felt like Aerith had a lot of Motherly qualities too, but then again, that may just be me. Though she separates Cloud and Zack at this point, I find it rather impossible for her to actually fall in love with him considering he is a fake at this point. Since you support Maiden, you should know that Aerith thinks about all of the things that make Cloud unique (more than his gesture and walk), and awakens Zack. She admits she doesn't know Cloud, even.

Adding to this- I don't believe Aerith ever stopped loving Zack. There are too many quotes stating that they are together, and remain together.

The date scene is optional, too. Though it's my honest feeling that the CloAer date-scene is most canon considering it deepens the plot, and makes the most sense considering the whole "bodyguard in exchange for one date" thing.

she views him as something to be protected

That's more Motherly than wearing the pants, as Tifa is out-right stated to do, imo.

And I just want to note that I totally respect what you're saying, if I came off as mean anywhere up there.

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, probably she wanted to play along as it was her and Zack. <_<

I don't think so. She, like Tifa probably thought it was best not to make a big deal about it at the time, seeing as how it could have entails some serious effects on his psyche.