The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[A]

I actually found it to be good character development for Aeris in that it forced her to deal with Zack's death and move on. In the end it's not Zack she's trying to be with - it's Cloud. She doesn't want to be with a cardboard cutout of her ex.

Besides the fact that she calls Cloud her beloved (which, by the way, we have no idea what the time frame is so this one is kind of stuck thar) we see only consoling actions coming from her.....

Wait, am I allowed to post spoilers now, or is that still not allowed?

No one is saying Cloud's not fucked up, all I'm saying is that as fractured as Cloud is, it's still him in there. He's the one who struggles to keep up the Zack facade, he even admits this. Cloud wanted to be someone else.

Cloud wanted to be someone else - the ideal man for Tifa.

 

[Vendel]

@Vendel

No one is saying Cloud's not fucked up, all I'm saying is that as fractured as Cloud is, it's still him in there. He's the one who struggles to keep up the Zack facade, he even admits this. Cloud wanted to be someone else.

Sure Cloud is in there. And yes he struggles to keep up the facade. And we learn why in game. Once that facade is cracked he has a complete mental breakdown.

Do you think Cloud wanted to forget his feelings for Tifa? Yet his dominate persona thinks they were childhood friends.

Also, he did recall a good chunk of the conversation with his mother, isn't that why the player is viewing it?

It's called context. His conversation with his mother is completely meaningless to the story for what is in it. It's only purpose is to point out that things are missing. He flash skips several times during this part of the flashback. It is meant to further highlight that something is seriously wrong. That and Tif's reactions to his story.

Knowing that Cloud is fucked up on a second play through this scene should stand out greatly. First time it might be "huh that is odd" but it should make sense now.

 

[Zee]

Besides the fact that she calls Cloud her beloved (which, by the way, we have no idea what the time frame is so this one is kind of stuck thar) we see only consoling actions coming from her.....

Does there really need to be, at that point? :\ We already know of her feelings for him, but she's there to snap him out of a depression, not throw herself at him.

Cloud wanted to be someone else - the ideal man for Tifa.

I was going to say, "Someone who wasn't a giant fuck up", but okay.

It's called context. His conversation with his mother is completely meaningless to the story for what is in it. It's only purpose is to point out that things are missing. He flash skips several times during this part of the flashback. It is meant to further highlight that something is seriously wrong. That and Tif's reactions to his story.

Yes, and? I don't disagree on any particular point you made there, sooooo...

 

[A]

Does there really need to be, at that point? :\ We already know of her feelings for him, but she's there to snap him out of a depression, not throw herself at him.

Again, I'll say that no one knows whether these feelings stay the same - the time frame is confusing, so it's kind of stuck thar unless SE shows us when this is.

I was going to say, "Someone who wasn't a giant fuck up", but okay.

'Tis true:

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form. Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

^ Ultimania.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Spoiler

Besides the fact that she calls Cloud her beloved (which, by the way, we have no idea what the time frame is so this one is kind of stuck thar) we see only consoling actions coming from her.....

We already know of her feelings for him

It wasn't clear whether Aerith truly loved Cloud as himself before, and I just went over it again and CoL doesn't make it any clearer because it doesn't specify when Aerith decided she loves Cloud as more than a shadow of Zack, or even if she does.

She calls him her koibito/beloved before she comes into contact with Zack, and nowhere unless I missed does it say that Aerith was there when Tifa helped Cloud piece himself back together. It seems like we are back in square one with Aerith's feelings for Cloud.

She doesn't have to know him all that well to care for him, but if Aerith and Cloud didn't ever get close enough to reach some sort of mutual understanding of their feelings, then Clerith never really happened.

Just Aerith maybe sorta loving Cloud and Cloud being attracted to her but loving Tifa as if 'nothing's changed' when all is done.

*just marked it to be extra safe/paranoid.

 

[Zee]

@A

What I got from that was Tifa gave pieces to start the puzzle, and Cloud ran with his idealized version of Zack; not necessarily that he wanted to be a better man because of her. I think you could find better proof of that elsewhere.

It wasn't clear whether Aerith truly loved Cloud as himself before, and CoL doesn't make it any clearer because it doesn't specify when Aerith decided she loves Cloud as more than a shadow of Zack, or even if she does.

She calls him her koibito/beloved before she comes into contact with Zack, and nowhere unless I missed does it say that Aerith was there when Tifa helped Cloud piece himself back together. It seems like we are back in square one with Aerith's feelings for Cloud.

I'm a little confused. Are you going by CoL or Maiden? In Maiden, she and Zack do watch the Lifestream scene. In CoL Zack makes no apperance and there's no mention of the Lifestream scene.

Even if we say CoL is still through the events of the grand finale in FF7, if it states she loves him, why would this change by the time of AC? She can't act on these feelings, but she pops right back from the afterlife to console him, and it means a lot to her that he cared so much. I think she's simply content with her feelings and resigned to the fact she'll never be able to be with him.

 

[A]

She calls him her koibito/beloved before she comes into contact with Zack, and nowhere unless I missed does it say that Aerith was there when Tifa helped Cloud piece himself back together. It seems like we are back in square one with Aerith's feelings for Cloud.

While this is true, Maiden is not canon. The updated version of the Lifestream doesn't give any depth to which when Aerith discovers Zack (but because he's not there with her, and it's stated that he's always by her side), I would have to say it's before she actually got to meet Zack. She must have discovered who the real Cloud was after the Lifestream, but there's nothing to show up to when she discovered the real Cloud there and when she stated that she considered Cloud as her beloved.

What I got from that was Tifa gave pieces to start the puzzle, and Cloud ran with his idealized version of Zack; not necessarily that he wanted to be a better man because of her. I think you could find better proof of that elsewhere.

There's nothing about Zack in that statement. All it states is that after running into Tifa he suddenly fashions an ideal version of himself; thus creating a new personality for him.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

That's CoL I'm talking about, A. And it seems we agree, anyway.

 

[A]

I know, but what do you mean by this:

She calls him her koibito/beloved before she comes into contact with Zack

In CoL?

 

[Zee]

A, his idealized persona is based on Zack. Jenova simply got memories from Tifa, providing a base.

this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

His own ideal vision, it doesn't say anything about Tifa's vision of him, or wanting to be an ideal version of himself for her.

 

[A]

Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

Also, note that Cloud had multiple personalities. Who's to say that he couldn't have more than one? After being able to read Tifa's memories of him, they were combined to the ideal vision for himself, not the ideal vision of Zack after he bumped into him.

EDIT:

The accompanying screenshot:

As Sephiroth said in the Whirlwind Maze, when Cloud met Tifa, he formed a new personality.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

@A

Spoiler

In Lifestream White 1, Aerith calls Cloud her beloved/expresses romantic love for him.

She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking. When she found fragments of consciousness of people she had once known– pitifully few in number– she infused them with her own memories and sought their assistance.

This is in Lifestream White 2. CoL isn't Maiden, but I still think her meeting up with Zack and "infusing his memory into her own" would give her some insight wrt the ZaCloud thing.

And they don't(I don't think)mention Aerith seeing Tifa and Cloud in the Lifestream.

So it doesn't seem like a whole lot's changed with Aerith's from what we knew before Aerith died. :/

 

[Zee]

Also, note that Cloud had multiple personalities. Who's to say that he couldn't have more than one? After being able to read Tifa's memories of him, they were combined to the ideal vision for himself, not the ideal vision of Zack after he bumped into him.

He has a great influence on Cloud. Although Zack’s wish is carried on by Cloud, based on Jenova cells implanted by Hojo, Cloud seems to begin in a warped way….

His personality was formed not only by the intention of concealing such self, but also by the implanted Jenova cell which twisted what Zack went through as the base. In CC, Cloud’s weak side unfolds before us: it makes us realize the influence from Zack that affects Cloud.

In FF7, Cloud imitates Zack’s memory and personality because Jenova cell has the ability of copying. But if you follow the storyline of CC till the end, you’ll know that it’s not simply because the effect of Jenova cells, but also there’s a firm friendship and a men’s promise between them.

I think it's pretty clear Zack is his ideal man.

 

[A]

But we all know that he had multiple personalities, right? The Jenova cells, the ZaCloud, the Cloud puppet, the Tifa Cloud, the real Cloud - I don't doubt that his personality was created by the influence of Zack, but there's also Tifa. Sephiroth himself states so in the Whirlwind Maze.

I think it's pretty clear Zack is his ideal man.

QFT.

 

[Zee]

But we all know that he had multiple personalities, right? The Jenova cells, the ZaCloud, the Cloud puppet, the Tifa Cloud, the real Cloud - I don't doubt that his personality was created by the influence of Zack, but there's also Tifa. Sephiroth himself states so in the Whirlwind Maze.

Oh, I agree there's multiple personalities and factors, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't being all attributed to just one thing.

"You suuuure are messed up, Cloud!"

Preach, Tifa. Preach.

 

[A]

I'd prefer seeing a PMSing Aerith beating the hell out of Cloud, but preaching Tifa is fine for now.

 

[Zee]

I'd prefer seeing a PMSing Aerith beating the hell out of Cloud, but preaching Tifa is fine for now.

That's now in my head-canon. Someone draw it!

Anyway, I'll take this lull in the thread to say that I've gotta bounce for the night, it's been fun! =)

 

[A]

Nite.

Hmm, no one else... guess it's gone back to where it's started.

 

[Celes Chere]

I actually found it to be good character development for Aeris in that it forced her to deal with Zack's death and move on. In the end it's not Zack she's trying to be with - it's Cloud. She doesn't want to be with a cardboard cutout of her ex.

Seeya, Zee!

Though, I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Reasonings are pretty much all up there and have been discussed. I just wanted to say so so that you didn't think I ignored ya.

 

[Channy]

So I'm reading that anti-Clerith thread thing that just got closed (recently, why I'm posting this here) and I think my e-penor just grew to over 9000. Apparently I'm the sole Clerith survivor, sailing the seven seas of Gaia on my Pink Ship, battling the hordes of Cloti pirates.

...until they find out I'm secretly Cloti too. wtf :awesome

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You should make that your title, Channy. "The Clerith Pirate on the Gaia sea"

But yeah, I could see Aerith knowing of the existence of real!Cloud, but I don't think she was ever able to meet him. No one was able to meet him in the first disc, except maybe crazyface himself. Agree/disagree?

 

[Channy]

You should make that your title, Channy. "The Clerith Pirate on the Gaia sea"

But yeah, I could see Aerith knowing of the existence of real!Cloud, but I don't think she was ever able to meet him. No one was able to meet him in the first disc, except maybe crazyface himself. Agree/disagree?

Sadly the usertitle doesn't allow for so many characters and the mods refuse to give more because they're nazi's.

Clerith's need to gets some penises imo cause they can't simply accept that I made a Clerith fanclub because I love Clerith, THEY have to degrade it and say I did it for the fanons and I love Cloti. They should lurk more before judging

ontopic: I agree. Aerith saying she wanted to MEET Cloud obviously states she saw/sensed something was wrong with him, but she didn't get a chance to. Which sucks, because if she had it may have opened up way more info for us.. Maybe she and real!Cloud wouldn't have clicked as much as she and Zack!Cloud did.

 

[Cthulhu]

Sadly the usertitle doesn't allow for so many characters and the mods refuse to give more because they're nazi's.

And we take great pride in our White Supremacy, ergo, stfu & gtfo, .











Limits can be raised in exchange for n00dz

 

[Channy]

And we take great pride in our White Supremacy, ergo, stfu & gtfo, .











Limits can be raised in exchange for n00dz

Gimme over 9000 and I'll give you a boob.

 

[Cthulhu]

Gimme over 9000 and I'll give you a boob.

Done, .