The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Tifa`s Barret koibito, guys.

I'm sure Barret's forgotten all about his past by now, since his sweetheart Tifa is in his life.

And what a careless father to leave Tifa with a child like Cloud, to raise two other kids!

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

LO doesn't mean anything because it isn't canon. It's an unofficial anime supervised by Nomura with music by CC/BC's Ishimoto that contradicts the game and isn't made Square themselves! Unlike Maiden, off course.

To expand on my previous post, here's what I've found out about it.

You can't normally use 'koibito' for someone you have unrequited love for. But, I guess you could think that to yourself (regardless of what the other person thinks).

'[My] screen koibito' (an example of one-sided usage) isn't a typically used expression. It's a little hard to understand, but I think it would mean what you thought, that someone is thinking of a film actor like that on their own.

-------

'Koibito' is Japanese, so I think it shouldn't be compared with other languages. (Re; 'can koibito be used like "you're such a sweetheart/etc"&#039


'Koibito' in Japanese:
1) Refers to people.

2) Refers to the object (other person) who the subject is in love with. Also, the other person must concurrently also love the subject. In other words, it is 'the other person, where the subject and other person both love each other'.

Example:
He is my koibito.
= I am in love with him, and he is also in love with me.

I am in love with him, but he is not in love with me.
=/= He is my koibito.
You can't use it like this normally.

3) It it also used to refer to that relationship.
Ex: We are koibito.

4) But, 'koi' is passion which can be influenced by emotions, so the expression 'koibito' is based on the subjectivity of the speaker.

We are koibito. (The speaker might think this, but you don't know if the other person agrees or not.)

--------

"Can 'koibito' be taken as meaning 'she's a kind-hearted person, everyone loves her, she's very popular, etc'?"

No, it cannot.

('Nihon no koibito/Japan's Sweetheart&#039 is strange Japanese.

To address some of the points:

1) I don't know if people still do it, but bringing up 'there's cookies called Shiroi Koibito!!1' doesn't really mean much. It's just a name. Just because there's chocolates called 'Lion Bars' and 'Mars Bars', doesn't mean those words mean something different now.?

4) is twistable, but you need to think of the context. The speaker is Nomura, talking about a fictional character. How likely is it that he's letting his emotions get in the way here? (Very, if you're a Japanese C/A fan.)


Nomura's 'koibito' statement has a fan name, actually. ????????, Declaration of Cloti Canonicity. Here's some internet thing about it:

In Final Fantasy 7 there are two heroines called Tifa and Aerith, and the bad blood between the fans of these characters is well known.

Each insist that their favourite is the main character's official koibito (= heroine), and their quarrel continued on without end.

(In the game, there is not passages with directly show who is his koibito, and things such as the date event depend on player's pervious actions.)

But 9 years after the release of FF7, a book of design materials called Reunion Files came out, in which it clearly said "Tifa is Cloud's koibito."

With this the Tifa fans bashed Aerith even more, and thinking themselves the victims the Aerith fans launched a vicious counterattack.

You can't help but be amazed at the extent of this shockingly brutal quarrel.

But there is also a problem with the developers, who now officially state who is the koibito after 9 years of having two heroines.

*See also*
Let's kill Aerith, let's bring in Tifa

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Why does the cleris definition of 'koibito' change on seemingly daily basis?

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg3669#msg3669 date=1230020678]Nomura's 'koibito' statement has a fan name, actually. ????????, Declaration of Cloti Canonicity. Here's some internet thing about it:
[/quote]

Out of curiousity, is this refering to the FF7 in Japan? Also, would anyone know the stance Japanese Cloud/Tifa-Cloud/Aeris fans have on the LTD in terms of what is canon and what's not? I know it doesn't really make much of a difference, but I'm just curious...

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg3695#msg3695 date=1230027118]
[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg3669#msg3669 date=1230020678]Nomura's 'koibito' statement has a fan name, actually. ????????, Declaration of Cloti Canonicity. Here's some internet thing about it:
[/quote]

Out of curiousity, is this refering to the FF7 in Japan? Also, would anyone know the stance Japanese Cloud/Tifa-Cloud/Aeris fans have on the LTD in terms of what is canon and what's not? I know it doesn't really make much of a difference, but I'm just curious...
[/quote]

I think it really depends who you speak to. If you speak to Westerners - particularly Cleris fans - you'll see the notion that it's either the same as in the West or abundantly Cleris (if you speak directly to the hardcore Cleris ilk).

However, common sense tells you otherwise. If you consider play the game in native Japanese, where you don't have either the American advertising to mislead you, the "I can meet HER there" mistranslation to confuse things and a far less choppy script to deal with, it stands to reason the story carries far less ambiguity - or the ability to be subjected to ambiguity as the West.

The story of a confused boy who leaves his sweetheart to prove himself only to have a breakdown and think he's someone else until through her help he finds his real identity underneath, shouldn't be quite as muddled in its home tongue (if it wasn't a befuddling story in itself already).

To sell it to the West, the story was pitched in advertising towards a more generically Western ideal; where a clearly emphasised hero romance has to take mandatory top billing. Again, from my exposure to Japanese mainstream fiction (and I've suffered a great deal in certain genres, not to request either), this template isn't as common - I've always felt the Cleris ideology is very much a Western fairy tale template being forced into a story which doesn't really follow that mandate. For that reason, I've always felt it jarred - because it feels unnatural, preying on Hollywood sensibilities for a blatant romance in a story that carries a hell of a lot of subtlety.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg3695#msg3695 date=1230027118]
[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg3669#msg3669 date=1230020678]Nomura's 'koibito' statement has a fan name, actually. ????????, Declaration of Cloti Canonicity. Here's some internet thing about it:
[/quote]

Out of curiousity, is this refering to the FF7 in Japan? Also, would anyone know the stance Japanese Cloud/Tifa-Cloud/Aeris fans have on the LTD in terms of what is canon and what's not? I know it doesn't really make much of a difference, but I'm just curious...
[/quote]

From the few people I've spoken to about this, CloudxTifa is widely supported, and the masses make fun of the CloudxAerith supporters worse than we do.

 

[Purple]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg3719#msg3719 date=1230046892]

From the few people I've spoken to about this, CloudxTifa is widely supported, and the masses make fun of the CloudxAerith supporters worse than we do.
[/quote]

Poor clerii, they can't seem to get a break.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg3719#msg3719 date=1230046892]From the few people I've spoken to about this, CloudxTifa is widely supported, and the masses make fun of the CloudxAerith supporters worse than we do.
[/quote]
I don't think most fans care much for Aerith or Tifa fans.

Imagine English fandom, only with more anonymity and copypasta flaming, and you have Japanese fandom. Most of the arguments are basically the same.

The only difference would be, perhaps obviously, the ones pertaining to Japanese stuff. Like Nomura's koibito statement, which I've never seen the meaning of being disputed. Rather it's just Nomura adding stuff in after the fact, that it's only Nomura saying these things so doesn't mean much.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I don't think most fans care much for Aerith or Tifa fans.

This is true.I've seen the Clerii state that the Japanese do dispute it, but they say a lot of things.

 

[Tennyo]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=spirit_chaser link=topic=53.msg3665#msg3665 date=1230017130]
I see no good reason for SE to make one-sided Cloti and release LO with that romantic scenes in it.
[/quote]

Better still, why would they have Cloud so clearly molesting Tifa in CC? XD

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=53.msg3760#msg3760 date=1230053324]
[quote author=spirit_chaser link=topic=53.msg3665#msg3665 date=1230017130]
I see no good reason for SE to make one-sided Cloti and release LO with that romantic scenes in it.
[/quote]

Better still, why would they have Cloud so clearly molesting Tifa in CC? XD
[/quote]

SE`s intentions shall always remain a mystery...
=D

Seriously though, SE released enough of evidence/proofs that Cloti and Zerith are canon couples.
The nature of Cloud and Aerith`s relationship, as AC proved it, is a big sister/little brother like.
Aerith is a mother figure (as opposite to Sephiroth) and Cloud even called her such as he felt her presence in the Lifestream.

Im sure if SE wanted to portray Cloud and Aerith as a couple (insted of Cloti), they wouldnt make all those Cloti scenes 'of the past', stating that they were made for the sake of better understanding the story (which is totally pointless if they considered Cloti as uncanon), and instead focus on Cloud and Aerith supposedly romantic relationship. They could make some scenes, like of Cloud remembering how he first met Aerith or her death and his grief, or him thinking/speaking of his feelings for her (sort of like Vince did in DC).

Another thing I find really amusing about Clerith (or more like Cleriths) is how they trying to portray the final scene of AC as a romantic Clerith one.
Like Aerith tells Cloud that he`s ok now and they`re going to be together and he`s smiling at her thinking he`s not alone anymore, blah blah...
Is it really so much fun to lie to yourself I wonder?... :-\

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Is it really so much fun to lie to yourself I wonder?...

My two theories are they are either so emotionally involved they don't even see it as lying to themselves and believe everything they are saying, or perhaps they do get some joy out of never backing down, getting together with the few Clerith's left to keep on fighting, etc. and are slightly more aware of the lying to themselves but think it's for the greater good or whatnot. Cause Cloti is evil.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Well, they do refer to themselves as 'Clerith Nazis" of "Cloti Genocide".

1.Not funny.
2.They are failing.
3.Er, that's pretty straightforward. They really are just psycho.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

My two theories are they are either so emotionally involved they don't even see it as lying to themselves and believe everything they are saying, or perhaps they do get some joy out of never backing down, getting together with the few Clerith's left to keep on fighting, etc. and are slightly more aware of the lying to themselves but think it's for the greater good or whatnot. Cause Cloti is evil.

Yeah, we want to rule the world with an evil Cloti cult : =D

Well, they do refer to themselves as 'Clerith Nazis" of "Cloti Genocide".

And to think that of all characters its Aerith who has such fans...

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg3949#msg3949 date=1230105213]
Well, they do refer to themselves as 'Clerith Nazis" of "Cloti Genocide".

1.Not funny.
2.They are failing.
3.Er, that's pretty straightforward. They really are just psycho.
[/quote]

That's not very funny... that's not funny at all

In regards to the whole "eyes are burning" = crying that came up on FFF. Is it weird that when Cloud said that line, I imagined it as if his eyes were blazing in rage, like a Looney Toons character?

ie. http://static.highend3d.com/galleryimages/179/screen.jpg

I dunno, I always though firey eyes were a cliche for being suprememly pissed off.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

http://never.hayalkarga.com/


Go go, Cleriths! :

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I thought eyes burning meant rage as well. Eyes don't burn when they are being soaked by tears, unless your tears are special or something. XP

 

[haichinamie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

okay i have not read anything from the ultimanias but i'm sure those dont matter i am sure the game/movie will eb enough... yes?

Caith Sith predicted Cloude and Aerith's MARRIAGE.
Why does the ffvii commercial talk about a love that can never be?
why do most people think it cleris??
why are there more cleris fans in japan.
why is nomura's facorite character aerith.
why does cloud act shy in front of aertih in kh.
and why are they alongside all of the other couples in the ending?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I though it was being really enraged, or very sad (although I guess that might be tears).

I can't say I've ever felt that mad or that sad, so I don't know what it feels like. I guess that's a good thing

People have pointed to how Cloud is kind of trembling as an indication that he's crying, but there is actually a translation error to go with that Sephiroth's dialogue afterwards is:

?????????????????????????
"Stop pretending you're sad. And there's no need for the performance/act of trembling in anger." (Bear with the bad English in the second sentence )

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Why does the ffvii commercial talk about a love that can never be?

Why indeed.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=haichinamie link=topic=53.msg4012#msg4012 date=1230124568]
Caith Sith predicted Cloude and Aerith's MARRIAGE.
[/quote]

You mean Cait Sith, the muppet who cannot predict the future and was in fact just one of SHINRA? Could it be a nice red herring setting up the surprise of Aeris' death in the act following?

Why does the ffvii commercial talk about a love that can never be?

Because it was an ad, made by advertisers (not writers or any at SE) to pitch to a market that is very much motivated by romance - especially when pitching an epic.

why do most people think it cleris??

Erm, they don't. Go check some statistics.

why are there more cleris fans in japan.

There aren't - that's just a rumour spread by some Western Cleris fans backed up by no facts whatsoever.

why is nomura's facorite character aerith.

My favourite character in Star Wars is Darth Vader - doesn't mean I want him to hump Luke.

why does cloud act shy in front of aertih in kh.

Because it's a non canon game having some fun. Why is Tifa the Light in Cloud's soul for KH2? Either way, it doesn't matter - they aren't canon.

and who are they alongside all of the other couples in the ending?

Not sure what that means - check your grammar.

Questions asked time again and with respect, none actually handle the story itself - because it's the story which gives you the answer to the LT in FF7 Compilation - not the advertisers, KH or a false fortune teller.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=haichinamie link=topic=53.msg4012#msg4012 date=1230124568]
okay i have not read anything from the ultimanias but i'm sure those dont matter i am sure the game/movie will eb enough... yes?[/QUOTE]

A wry comment indeed, but a bit too low key a reference.

Caith Sith predicted Cloude and Aerith's MARRIAGE.

And then she bloody well died. Oops! Get that was another wrong prediction. He's batting less than chance.

Why does the ffvii commercial talk about a love that can never be?

The same reason it talks of a hate that always was. It's lying to get you to buy. Same as the FFVIJ and US commercials, and the FFVIII commercial.

why do most people think it cleris??
why are there more cleris fans in japan.

Both of these are not true.

why is nomura's facorite character aerith.

She isn't. Rinoa is, IIRC.

why does cloud act shy in front of aertih in kh.

You mean why does he simply not give a damn that she exists? Because he has other things on his mind, maybe?

and why are they alongside all of the other couples in the ending?

Pinnochio and Jeppeto and Daisy and Minnie are NOT couples. That's who they are shown alongside.
[/quote]

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

1. Cait Sith is unreliable. He isn't even a fortune teller, but a puppet made and controlled by Shinra. Reeve is no fortune teller. Caith Sith is also stated to be unreliable in Ultimanias. The game SHOWS you he isn't reliable when he gets everything wrong, including Aeris' bright future in which she gets shiskabbobed by Sephiroth.

Incidentally, Zack's chara descriptions carry that "his future seemed bright" bullshit too.

2. For the same reason the commercial got everything else wrong, like the "hatred that always was". It was made by some dudes in the US who didn't know the whole story and were using standard western shit to sell it to a western audience.

3. LOLz. Nein.
4. LOLZ again. More lying.

5. Nomura's fave FFVII chara is actually Red 13. He shares an intimate moment with Aeris in a tube
And if she were, how the hell does this affect anything?

My favorite character is Sephiroth. You knwo what this means

6. Because they have no interaction, unless you count the 2 seconds of looking at each other? Where is thsi shy thing coming from?

7. Daisy/Minnie FTW! I always thought they were more than friends.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=OneWingedDemon link=topic=53.msg4049#msg4049 date=1230145104]7. Daisy/Minnie FTW! I always thought they were more than friends.
[/quote]
Yeah, but they're less than lovers.

I don't think the fortunes Cait Sith gives that are right are so much to show he's a furry Nostradamus, but just some foreshadowing or misdirection.

And his predictions (the one?) that are right are typically vague standard fortune telling lines. If he was really good we should have got more accurate fortunes.

"That girl in pink next to you is going to be stabbed by that guy you're chasing. You might want to stop buying equipment for her."


I've heard Cloud and Sora for Nomura's favourite character.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

okay i have not read anything from the ultimanias but i'm sure those dont matter i am sure the game/movie will eb enough... yes?

Yes. Writing the books was completely pointless from SE.

Caith Sith predicted Cloude and Aerith's MARRIAGE.

And... where is it? The marriage.
Cloud lives with Tifa for three years in the FFVII timeline already

why do most people think it cleris??

Most (no, all) the neutral fans I know think its Cloti.

why are there more cleris fans in japan.

So you know every single Japanese FFVII fan to make such conclusion?

why does cloud act shy in front of aertih in kh.

Why Aerith is even alive in KH...

and why are they alongside all of the other couples in the ending?

Maybe because they were both from FFVII, duh.

...

I though it was being really enraged, or very sad (although I guess that might be tears).

I think he was extremely angry at Seph and sad for Aerith at the same time.

But what about Cloud`s entire speech (which is used as evidence for Clerith): "what should WE do now?..." something like that, I dont remember now.
Is it a correct translation? And I still dont quite understand what `we` stands for - him and Aerith, or Avalanche in general.