The First Epic LTD of TLS forums
- Thread starter Strangelove
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Alessa Gillespie
a letter to my future self
- AKA
- Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Geez, don't you know the script is WRONGWRONGWRONG!? I mean, clearly, most of their descriptions are wrong. When does Aerith ever seem lonely at the end?!?! Cloud can visit her whenever he wants, duh.Oh, and Cloud do smile for Tifa in the ending. Here;
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/taap47/script01.jpg
A shy smile too, how come?
Alessa Gillespie
a letter to my future self
- AKA
- Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I'm not xAerith, but we've been dismantling the misinformation on FFG's website, mostly.
paoo
♥
Well.. We have been talking about some pages of Destiny Fullfilled when they claim Cloud and Tifa cannot be in love.
And then I just was showing a picture of Cloud smiling towards Tifa.
Uh.. anyway, it is the LTD. No.. the LTM.
Do you have anything you wanna bring up, fellow Clerith?
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
You know, I have an old text file that was a casual page by page rebuttal to each page, written way back when I was sitting on gamefaqs and got sick and tired of people copying and pasting the site at me.
If anyone wants to see it, I could post it up here.
If anyone wants to see it, I could post it up here.
paoo
♥
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
I want to see it too, Ryu. Now that would be something actually WORTH reading.
Vendel
Banned
Haha, I was going to school. And I was just about to post it here, because I already uploaded it on photobucket before I left.
Here we go, now when I'm home again;
Humm....Well Cloud was never the most expressive with his happy face. That could be a slight grin. It also doesn't help that it is a profile.
Ryushikaze said:
Wow. I get a headache just from looking at one page. You must have really been sick and tired.
paoo
♥
Well.. I thought he smiled. Because he changed his expression right there. He didn't look all serious when he saw Tifa.
But that's with he did with the others. And then of course, he looked shocked when he saw Aerith.
Last edited:
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Alright, here it ALL is. Keep in mind it's a few years out of date, and I've not updated it at all.
Like I said, not updated at all.
Edit: Yeah, that's not the smile I was referring to. It's visible in the out shot when Cloud and Tifa are holding hands. It's very quick.
Ryushikaze's response to "Japanese culture and the Love Triangle of FF7"
Also known as "How NOT to argue"
This is a response to a page dedicated to "proving" that Cloud and Aerith are indeed romantically in love with each other in Final fantasy seven. The page actually doesn't do this. It instead takes Cloud and Aerith's love as a given, and assumes the problem is that of interpretation. However, the arguments on the site require leaps of logic that boggle the mind, have holes big enough to drive trucks through, and which are just plain invalidated by Advent Children and its related materials, though a reading of other essays on the site shows that the writers are not going to let the actual plot of AC get in their way. This essay is an attempt to reveal the flaws in this site, just in case any was actually convinced by it.
The site is located at http://www.geocities.com/ffviilovetriangle/Introduction.htm
Refer to it for what I am rebutting, because I don't want to quote.
For the AC materials I am referring to, check Advent Children itself and http://one.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/ (If site is down, google for On the way to a smile' and 'Maiden who travels the planet')
Last Order and Reminiscence of FF7 are also quite skippy materials, and relevant to the LTD as well.
Now then, I use a lot of language and yelling in this rebuttal. It is because I have a rather low tolerance for stupid, and this argument has a lot of it. I have nothing intrinsically against the Cloud/Aerith pairing (though I do believe it to be incorrect), but this site is just too, too stupid.
Kingdom Hearts-
Assumption that Aerith is the light, or that being the light represents love. There's also the assumption he was looking for Aerith, and that he's looking for her for love, as opposed to forgiveness/ to destroy his darkness, as he is looking for in AC. And in fact, thanks to KH2, we know the light is NOT Aerith, as he is still looking for it, as Tifa offers Cloud hers to aid him (say it with me now, AWWWWWW) in his battles, and Nomura, the guy in charge, confirms in an the related Ultimania.
Also, the fact that the Cloud of Kingdom Hearts isn't the same Cloud from FF7, so even if she was the light (which she's not) and that that meant love, it doesn't exactly hold water within FF7. Similarly, we can't expect FF7 to hold water with KH either. We can't be sure if Barret, Vincent, or anyone else from FF7 we have not yet seen exists in KH, especially given their widely different backstory. And even if they did, we can't be sure their relationships and personalities will be anything like their originating FF, especially given the existing examples of FF characters with widely different backstories than their FF game of Origin (not the least of which is the Leon/ Seifer/ Vivi thing in KH2)
And even if they WERE the same, both KH Cloud (who is curiously mixed with Vincent as far as character design goes) and Advent Cloud are wandering about for forgiveness/ to destroy their darkness, not for love.
Evidence of Japanese Cultural Influence-
Not much to say here, other than some of the 'japanese culture notes'- especially flowers and the reverence of family- are not exclusive to japan, and the idea that the big fish actually does represent strength and courage in FF7 and is not some form of wierd easter egg is only an assumption. I'm not saying it CAN'T BE, I'd just like some form of supporting evidence.
Though there is one part in this section that makes this entire page rather defunct. He brings forth the notion that the FF7 characters are westerners (again, simply treating this as fact rather than supporting the notion. That they're likely westerners I won't dispute (their names are of western origin), I just wish to point out that he doesn't support it). Now, if the characters are supposed to be westerners, why expect them to respond like Japanese people?
Also, his insistence that the japanese 'use characters of Western descent in film, TV programs, and such when there is violence or conflict involved in the plot. The Japanese do not like to portray themselves in situations of conflict, since the Japanese feel that conflict should be avoided at all costs.' flies smack in the face of their popular culture in multiple forms.
Japanese behaviors-
Again, these are supposed to be exclusive to japan how?
Now then. As for silence- It should be noted that much of the japanese rules of sociality are more often than not thrown out the window in fiction. Silence most especially.
Love Relationships-
Everything he says in this passage regards to Cloud's emotions towards Aerith in this scene also apply just as validly and just as often towards Tifa, if not moreso. He, however, neglects to deal with any of this in order to support his argument, which, I note, comes dangerously close to distorting scenes for his own purposes.
Sexual Relationships-
Two major things here. Firstly, he assumes that the Cloud/Aerith scene is the official one, despite there being three other versions of that scene.
- As a short aside- If we look at the silence of this scene in a japanese context, then shouldn't Tifa's scene show an even deeper bond?-
Secondly, he interprets the 'I want to meet... you' line as only having a sexual/ romantic connotation, without possibility for other interpretations.
-Also, an aside about his 'Under the highwind page- the affection rating in the game DO NOT REPRESENT CLOUD'S FEELINGS. They represent each candidate's feelings towards Cloud and have no basis on his emotions for each one (Unless you want to argue that Cloud gives a flower to Marlene because he likes Barret, or answers a random person in Kalm's question a certain way because he knows it'll impress certain people).-
Now, I'm not trying to say Aerith didn't have feelings for what she thought was Cloud, the point again here is that he assumes the one interpretation to be true. Of course, Aerith later has to admit (in Maiden who travels the Planet, a novella based off of Aerith's experience in the afterlife) that what she loved wasn't actually the real Cloud, but the shell personality constructed from Zack's memories and mannerisms that he created for himself. True love, eh? Doesn't sound like it.
Cloud and Aerith's Love-
Here's where it gets fucked up. His assumptions and specific interpretations without supporting evidence come in full force now.
The ribbon- Yes. The ribbon can be used as a symbol for the red string of love (Though I'd like to point out that a common running joke in Sailor Moon is that Venus never finds true love, so using her as an example of the ribbon indicating such a thing is rather silly), but this is not its only meaning. But let's assume for a moment that his take is correct and that it IS the red string of love. Is it with Cloud? He assumes this to be true without either a second thought or a second's thought. However, Maiden of the planet reveals that Aerith never actually knew the real Cloud while alive. So, does this string connect her to the Cloud who she never met, or her original Boyfriend who the fake cloud was based off of?
Also, if the instances he uses are evidence for this connection are indicative Cloud and Aerith, are they not also indicative of Cloud and Sephiroth? He's able to sense Sephiroth at a distance, too.
Is Marlene connected to Aerith by this string of love? She can sense Aerith at a distance as well. (As she does in the ending of FF7). What about Tifa? She does the same in Advent Children (on the Highwind)
-I'd also like to note with amusement that he tries to explain a way a continuity error (Aerith's character model still having the ribbon when it falls off of her head in the FMV) as a symbol that their love still continues.-
However, I, for one, do NOT assume the ribbon is the thread of love. Instead, I believe it to be, if anything, the red string of fate, a related (and just as valid) myth which while still connecting people by ties of fate, requires no romantic overtones at all.
Not only that, but Advent Children kinda throws a wrench in assuming that the Ribbon means love. In the movie, it can easily be seen that the entire gang is wearing ribbons. Rather than assuming they're all in love with each other (in more than a fillial sense), we can posit that it represents their solidarity and their memory of Aerith (a possible interpretation is that Aerith is the very ribbon that ties them together).
Note, however, that I'm not stating this as fact, like the original essay's author is.
As for the final FMV, once again, I note that Cloud's words are once again taken out of context. Even if they weren't, they still don't make sense given his course of action. If Cloud does indeed WANT to meet Aerith, then why does he LEAVE and not fall back into the Lifestream?
The transcript of the dialogue this scene
C: ......I think I'm beginning to understand.
T: What?
C: An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there.
T: Yeah, let's go meet her.
Which is usually what is used as proof. However, given that Cloud immediately leaves the area, finds the party, and then exits for Midgard, where indeed, a meeting does take place, assuming that this scene represents Cloud expressing his desire to 'be with' Aerith- rather than his statement of what he thinks will be the case- is a rather silly notion.
It's also worth noting that the japanese version of this scene does not use pronouns, and nothing in the exchange indicates a 'her' is being talked about, either in Cloud's lines or Tifa's. Of course, a literal translation (sans pronouns) of this scene is bloody horrendous sounding english, which may account for Sony's inclusion of 'her' in the english script.
The original japanese gives a somewhat different meaning for those last two lines.
C: Socode.... Aeru to omounda
T: Un, Ai ni ikou
Translated that's
C: There.... (I) think (I) could/might meet (see what I said about sounding like crap literally? Localized, it's something like There... I think there could/might be a meeting. Loose but not as loose as the Sony translation. No mention of 'her' or anything like that)
T: Yeah. Let's go meet. (BTW, I need not mention the possible sexual interpretations of this exchange if 'knowing' can be interpreted sexually)
However, the least brain hurty interpretation of this scene WHEN TAKEN IN ITS FULL CONTEXT avoids relationship reference and refers to the meeting that is about to happen in Midgard (It being the 'There' Cloud refers to, a place that has been called the promised land by Nomura). In fact, the meeting Cloud refers to probably involves the answer from the planet far more so than the person (which, yes, could be Aerith, but the focus of the line is the answer, not the person meeting)
All told this makes Cloud's line "I'm beginning to understand. An answer from the planet. The promised land. That place... I think I can meet..." with the promised land being Midgar and the unspoken object of the sentence being the meeting of destiny and discovering of Humanity's fate or a meeting of whomever or whatever (yes, possibly Aerith) will reveal the answer of their destiny. Or you can group the promised land with 'the planet' IE- it's where the answer is coming from.
-As a side note, that people try and take this scene as a love triangle scene when it doesn't fit the context at all just goes to show just how wierd some people get about the whole affair.-
Aerith's weapon is an umbrella, so this must be a reference to the umbrella as a symbol of love, huh? What about Cid's mop or Cloud's Nail Bat? Do THESE have a meaning? Or are you just looking too hard? I bet its the latter, especially because she uses that Umbrella to kill things.
Yes, Flowers often represent love. They ALSO often represent poverty, especially the selling of them on the streets. Aerith lives in the slums. She's poor. Also note how he says Aerith embodies certain ideas as a matter of fact WITHOUT EXPLAINING HOW OR SHOWING ANY EVIDENCE? ::Sigh:: Terrible terrible argumentative practices.
Color theory, color theory, color theory. While I think it's stupid, I'll adress it. Vincent and Red XIII. There. I've just rendered your interpretation of Color theory wrong, unless you'd like to explain how they fit your particular interpretation? How about the Planet destroying Meteor? It's red too.
I won't touch on his interpretation of Tifa since Vincent and RXIII should be enough to show that Color theory doesn't work how he thinks it does, if at all, in FF7, save to say it's another example of his 'It can, therefore it must be here' mode of thinking.
Why Symbolism-
Firstly NO YOU HAVEN'T! You have NOT proved that any of these things are the case! You have said that these particular interpretations can be used in japanese fiction, but NOWHERE have you shown any evidence to prove that they are used thusly in FF7, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE CHARACTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WESTERNERS.
I'd like to explain why Aerith is default- She likes the fake Cloud the most and she's a pushy flirt. Tifa and Yuffie are less likely to force themselves on someone as Aerith does (And please, don't try and Argue that Aerith is neither flirty nor pushy. She IS and I'm prepared to show evidence if need be)
Why doesn't Cloud Grieve-
Would you spend a lot of time grieving when you were all that stood between an insane madman and his plans for world domination? Me neither. Not only that, but Cloud seems to grieve by continuing on, in memory of the fallen. Put another way, Cloud's resolve is his way of showing grief. He does it for Aerith, he does it for Zack, and he does it for his hometown, too.
Sacrifice-
No. Nomura and Nojima DIDN'T WANT AERITH'S DEATH TO BE A CLICHE. THEY SAID SO THEMSELVES. She wasn't a sacrifice. She was MURDERED. Seph stabbed her ass but good. There was no sacrifice. There was death. Plain and simple.
Also, the lines quoted show a connection between Aerith and the entire party. Not just Cloud.
Her memory may have invigorated them to kick Sephy's silver haired ass, but it was hardly her intent to do so.
Japanese Literature and Film-
Please note that he first makes the assumption that the ideas are present, then begins to tell us about them.
However, he then goes off on a totally unrelated tangent (Cloud's not committing Seppuku anytime soon, so what's the point of talking about it?)
Next he reiterates that he's shown that a bond of love exists between Cloud and Aerith (NO YOU HAVEN'T) and then repeats his out of context interpretation of Cloud's words (Cloud's not expressing desire, he's expressing a realization).
Life After Death-
Nothing too objectionable here. Though it should be noted that Maiden of the planet says that it is highly unusual to last very long as a distinct person in the lifestream, and that Aerith's own birth mother, a Cetra, did not even last 15 years. The spirits that reside outside of the Lifestream can avoid this fate, but Aerith is not outside the lifestream, and has given no evidence that she can leave, or even wants to.
Several Paths, One Destination-
Again, another misinterpretaion of scene, though without Maiden to aid him, his misunderstanding is at least forgivable. Cloud, in this scene, is standing around in a daze, his mind just kinda chilling in the lifestream. Aerith protects him, and he instinctually reaches out towards the hand he sees which leads him back to his own Body as Aerith wanted. This scene ISN'T them reuniting in love. It's AERITH PUNTING HIS BITCH ASS BACK INTO HIS OWN BODY TO SAVE HIS LIFE.
Also- Tifa should not be ignored, huh? So it's better to do her lip service for your own purposes? That's worse than ignoring her.
As for Tifa's response- She's not accepting Cloud's rejection (There is none). It's about how she feels to the 'answer' the planet is about to give. Let's assume this is a positive interpretation, possibly at being able to meet Aerith again. This is one of many possible scenarios, and is one of the more positive ones.
Pragmatism vs. Idealism: Fairy Tales-
I'm not sure where to begin here, honestly. I wanna know where the idea about the gang fighting for an ideal world comes from. And how this makes Cloud an Idealist (He NEVER expresses idealist sentiments to my recollection. In fact, his speeches near the end of the game are rather anti-idealist as well). Also, note his insistence (via his use of a screencap) that Aerith's Fairy tale weapon has a plot based meaning. As well as his reference of the Saucer play (A MOCKERY of fairy tales, if anything. Why should we expect a story to be fairy tale idealist when that self same story is mocking of them?)
“I think I can meet her… there”-
Again, as for Tifa's response- There is no acceptance of rejection, as there's no rejection and thus no need for acceptance of rejection.
Possible Outcomes-
"What matters is that we know Cloud and Aerith were joined by a ribbon of true love, and that Cloud intends “to meet her… there”. It’s up to the player to decide in what way Cloud did that."
Simply put good sir. NO WE DON'T. We 'KNOW' nothing. You've PROVED nothing! Everything is supposition, logic leaps, and assumptions that just because it can be taken a certain way, it MUST be! Terrible argumentative practice, and certainly nothing that should convince anyone but the most gullible, especially since I can point to numerous examples of relationships NOT being expressed thusly in japanese popular media.
By the way, a quote from Case of Tifa, written by the scenario writer for FF7 and Advent Children. This quote comes AFTER the end of FF7
[Tifa was afraid of her future. She looked down from the sky towards the ground.
Meanwhile, Cloud was sitting next to her gazing at the same scenery but was smiling peacefully. It was a smile that she hadn't seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, "What's wrong?"
Cloud, you're smiling."
"I am?"
"Yeah."
"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."
"But I've always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.]
Immediately after the events of FF7, he talks about starting a new life. With Tifa. Yep. Totally pining for the flower girl. Or not.
One last thing. I'd like to quote something that Cloud remembered once after meeting Aerith, and said in her presence later while recollecting the Nibleheim events.
[Clouds's Mom: You should have...
an older girlfriend, one that'll take care of you.
I think that would be the perfect type for you.
Cloud :......I'm not interested.]
Cloud says himself he's not interested in older women. I'd like to reiterate that this EXACT EXCHANGE is quoted twice, and that one of those times was while Aerith was listening.
Afterword
Now, I'd like to state that until a short time ago, I thought this was the DUMBEST Cloud/Aerith site on the web. I recently discovered otherwise.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
Is a site that attempts to QUANTITATIVELY MEASURE Cloud's love for each lady. You heard me right. He's trying to QUANTIFY LOVE. ::Rolls eyes:: I shouldn't need to explain what's moronic about that concept. Besides that, his criteria are decidedly pro-Aerith to begin with (Of course, if Cloud's past feelings cannot reflect his current feelings, then how can his feelings from any previous scene be valid? Again ::rolls eyes:, and he counts ANYTHING HE CAN as an Aerith reference for the purposes of love, EVEN WHEN SUCH A LINE COULD HAVE NO SUCH PURPOSE (Example: His apologizing for busting up the church).
Disclaimer: Apparently the sites were written by women. I don't care. I'm lazy and will not be changing pronouns.
Also known as "How NOT to argue"
This is a response to a page dedicated to "proving" that Cloud and Aerith are indeed romantically in love with each other in Final fantasy seven. The page actually doesn't do this. It instead takes Cloud and Aerith's love as a given, and assumes the problem is that of interpretation. However, the arguments on the site require leaps of logic that boggle the mind, have holes big enough to drive trucks through, and which are just plain invalidated by Advent Children and its related materials, though a reading of other essays on the site shows that the writers are not going to let the actual plot of AC get in their way. This essay is an attempt to reveal the flaws in this site, just in case any was actually convinced by it.
The site is located at http://www.geocities.com/ffviilovetriangle/Introduction.htm
Refer to it for what I am rebutting, because I don't want to quote.
For the AC materials I am referring to, check Advent Children itself and http://one.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/ (If site is down, google for On the way to a smile' and 'Maiden who travels the planet')
Last Order and Reminiscence of FF7 are also quite skippy materials, and relevant to the LTD as well.
Now then, I use a lot of language and yelling in this rebuttal. It is because I have a rather low tolerance for stupid, and this argument has a lot of it. I have nothing intrinsically against the Cloud/Aerith pairing (though I do believe it to be incorrect), but this site is just too, too stupid.
Kingdom Hearts-
Assumption that Aerith is the light, or that being the light represents love. There's also the assumption he was looking for Aerith, and that he's looking for her for love, as opposed to forgiveness/ to destroy his darkness, as he is looking for in AC. And in fact, thanks to KH2, we know the light is NOT Aerith, as he is still looking for it, as Tifa offers Cloud hers to aid him (say it with me now, AWWWWWW) in his battles, and Nomura, the guy in charge, confirms in an the related Ultimania.
Also, the fact that the Cloud of Kingdom Hearts isn't the same Cloud from FF7, so even if she was the light (which she's not) and that that meant love, it doesn't exactly hold water within FF7. Similarly, we can't expect FF7 to hold water with KH either. We can't be sure if Barret, Vincent, or anyone else from FF7 we have not yet seen exists in KH, especially given their widely different backstory. And even if they did, we can't be sure their relationships and personalities will be anything like their originating FF, especially given the existing examples of FF characters with widely different backstories than their FF game of Origin (not the least of which is the Leon/ Seifer/ Vivi thing in KH2)
And even if they WERE the same, both KH Cloud (who is curiously mixed with Vincent as far as character design goes) and Advent Cloud are wandering about for forgiveness/ to destroy their darkness, not for love.
Evidence of Japanese Cultural Influence-
Not much to say here, other than some of the 'japanese culture notes'- especially flowers and the reverence of family- are not exclusive to japan, and the idea that the big fish actually does represent strength and courage in FF7 and is not some form of wierd easter egg is only an assumption. I'm not saying it CAN'T BE, I'd just like some form of supporting evidence.
Though there is one part in this section that makes this entire page rather defunct. He brings forth the notion that the FF7 characters are westerners (again, simply treating this as fact rather than supporting the notion. That they're likely westerners I won't dispute (their names are of western origin), I just wish to point out that he doesn't support it). Now, if the characters are supposed to be westerners, why expect them to respond like Japanese people?
Also, his insistence that the japanese 'use characters of Western descent in film, TV programs, and such when there is violence or conflict involved in the plot. The Japanese do not like to portray themselves in situations of conflict, since the Japanese feel that conflict should be avoided at all costs.' flies smack in the face of their popular culture in multiple forms.
Japanese behaviors-
Again, these are supposed to be exclusive to japan how?
Now then. As for silence- It should be noted that much of the japanese rules of sociality are more often than not thrown out the window in fiction. Silence most especially.
Love Relationships-
Everything he says in this passage regards to Cloud's emotions towards Aerith in this scene also apply just as validly and just as often towards Tifa, if not moreso. He, however, neglects to deal with any of this in order to support his argument, which, I note, comes dangerously close to distorting scenes for his own purposes.
Sexual Relationships-
Two major things here. Firstly, he assumes that the Cloud/Aerith scene is the official one, despite there being three other versions of that scene.
- As a short aside- If we look at the silence of this scene in a japanese context, then shouldn't Tifa's scene show an even deeper bond?-
Secondly, he interprets the 'I want to meet... you' line as only having a sexual/ romantic connotation, without possibility for other interpretations.
-Also, an aside about his 'Under the highwind page- the affection rating in the game DO NOT REPRESENT CLOUD'S FEELINGS. They represent each candidate's feelings towards Cloud and have no basis on his emotions for each one (Unless you want to argue that Cloud gives a flower to Marlene because he likes Barret, or answers a random person in Kalm's question a certain way because he knows it'll impress certain people).-
Now, I'm not trying to say Aerith didn't have feelings for what she thought was Cloud, the point again here is that he assumes the one interpretation to be true. Of course, Aerith later has to admit (in Maiden who travels the Planet, a novella based off of Aerith's experience in the afterlife) that what she loved wasn't actually the real Cloud, but the shell personality constructed from Zack's memories and mannerisms that he created for himself. True love, eh? Doesn't sound like it.
Cloud and Aerith's Love-
Here's where it gets fucked up. His assumptions and specific interpretations without supporting evidence come in full force now.
The ribbon- Yes. The ribbon can be used as a symbol for the red string of love (Though I'd like to point out that a common running joke in Sailor Moon is that Venus never finds true love, so using her as an example of the ribbon indicating such a thing is rather silly), but this is not its only meaning. But let's assume for a moment that his take is correct and that it IS the red string of love. Is it with Cloud? He assumes this to be true without either a second thought or a second's thought. However, Maiden of the planet reveals that Aerith never actually knew the real Cloud while alive. So, does this string connect her to the Cloud who she never met, or her original Boyfriend who the fake cloud was based off of?
Also, if the instances he uses are evidence for this connection are indicative Cloud and Aerith, are they not also indicative of Cloud and Sephiroth? He's able to sense Sephiroth at a distance, too.
Is Marlene connected to Aerith by this string of love? She can sense Aerith at a distance as well. (As she does in the ending of FF7). What about Tifa? She does the same in Advent Children (on the Highwind)
-I'd also like to note with amusement that he tries to explain a way a continuity error (Aerith's character model still having the ribbon when it falls off of her head in the FMV) as a symbol that their love still continues.-
However, I, for one, do NOT assume the ribbon is the thread of love. Instead, I believe it to be, if anything, the red string of fate, a related (and just as valid) myth which while still connecting people by ties of fate, requires no romantic overtones at all.
Not only that, but Advent Children kinda throws a wrench in assuming that the Ribbon means love. In the movie, it can easily be seen that the entire gang is wearing ribbons. Rather than assuming they're all in love with each other (in more than a fillial sense), we can posit that it represents their solidarity and their memory of Aerith (a possible interpretation is that Aerith is the very ribbon that ties them together).
Note, however, that I'm not stating this as fact, like the original essay's author is.
As for the final FMV, once again, I note that Cloud's words are once again taken out of context. Even if they weren't, they still don't make sense given his course of action. If Cloud does indeed WANT to meet Aerith, then why does he LEAVE and not fall back into the Lifestream?
The transcript of the dialogue this scene
C: ......I think I'm beginning to understand.
T: What?
C: An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there.
T: Yeah, let's go meet her.
Which is usually what is used as proof. However, given that Cloud immediately leaves the area, finds the party, and then exits for Midgard, where indeed, a meeting does take place, assuming that this scene represents Cloud expressing his desire to 'be with' Aerith- rather than his statement of what he thinks will be the case- is a rather silly notion.
It's also worth noting that the japanese version of this scene does not use pronouns, and nothing in the exchange indicates a 'her' is being talked about, either in Cloud's lines or Tifa's. Of course, a literal translation (sans pronouns) of this scene is bloody horrendous sounding english, which may account for Sony's inclusion of 'her' in the english script.
The original japanese gives a somewhat different meaning for those last two lines.
C: Socode.... Aeru to omounda
T: Un, Ai ni ikou
Translated that's
C: There.... (I) think (I) could/might meet (see what I said about sounding like crap literally? Localized, it's something like There... I think there could/might be a meeting. Loose but not as loose as the Sony translation. No mention of 'her' or anything like that)
T: Yeah. Let's go meet. (BTW, I need not mention the possible sexual interpretations of this exchange if 'knowing' can be interpreted sexually)
However, the least brain hurty interpretation of this scene WHEN TAKEN IN ITS FULL CONTEXT avoids relationship reference and refers to the meeting that is about to happen in Midgard (It being the 'There' Cloud refers to, a place that has been called the promised land by Nomura). In fact, the meeting Cloud refers to probably involves the answer from the planet far more so than the person (which, yes, could be Aerith, but the focus of the line is the answer, not the person meeting)
All told this makes Cloud's line "I'm beginning to understand. An answer from the planet. The promised land. That place... I think I can meet..." with the promised land being Midgar and the unspoken object of the sentence being the meeting of destiny and discovering of Humanity's fate or a meeting of whomever or whatever (yes, possibly Aerith) will reveal the answer of their destiny. Or you can group the promised land with 'the planet' IE- it's where the answer is coming from.
-As a side note, that people try and take this scene as a love triangle scene when it doesn't fit the context at all just goes to show just how wierd some people get about the whole affair.-
Aerith's weapon is an umbrella, so this must be a reference to the umbrella as a symbol of love, huh? What about Cid's mop or Cloud's Nail Bat? Do THESE have a meaning? Or are you just looking too hard? I bet its the latter, especially because she uses that Umbrella to kill things.
Yes, Flowers often represent love. They ALSO often represent poverty, especially the selling of them on the streets. Aerith lives in the slums. She's poor. Also note how he says Aerith embodies certain ideas as a matter of fact WITHOUT EXPLAINING HOW OR SHOWING ANY EVIDENCE? ::Sigh:: Terrible terrible argumentative practices.
Color theory, color theory, color theory. While I think it's stupid, I'll adress it. Vincent and Red XIII. There. I've just rendered your interpretation of Color theory wrong, unless you'd like to explain how they fit your particular interpretation? How about the Planet destroying Meteor? It's red too.
I won't touch on his interpretation of Tifa since Vincent and RXIII should be enough to show that Color theory doesn't work how he thinks it does, if at all, in FF7, save to say it's another example of his 'It can, therefore it must be here' mode of thinking.
Why Symbolism-
Firstly NO YOU HAVEN'T! You have NOT proved that any of these things are the case! You have said that these particular interpretations can be used in japanese fiction, but NOWHERE have you shown any evidence to prove that they are used thusly in FF7, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE CHARACTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WESTERNERS.
I'd like to explain why Aerith is default- She likes the fake Cloud the most and she's a pushy flirt. Tifa and Yuffie are less likely to force themselves on someone as Aerith does (And please, don't try and Argue that Aerith is neither flirty nor pushy. She IS and I'm prepared to show evidence if need be)
Why doesn't Cloud Grieve-
Would you spend a lot of time grieving when you were all that stood between an insane madman and his plans for world domination? Me neither. Not only that, but Cloud seems to grieve by continuing on, in memory of the fallen. Put another way, Cloud's resolve is his way of showing grief. He does it for Aerith, he does it for Zack, and he does it for his hometown, too.
Sacrifice-
No. Nomura and Nojima DIDN'T WANT AERITH'S DEATH TO BE A CLICHE. THEY SAID SO THEMSELVES. She wasn't a sacrifice. She was MURDERED. Seph stabbed her ass but good. There was no sacrifice. There was death. Plain and simple.
Also, the lines quoted show a connection between Aerith and the entire party. Not just Cloud.
Her memory may have invigorated them to kick Sephy's silver haired ass, but it was hardly her intent to do so.
Japanese Literature and Film-
Please note that he first makes the assumption that the ideas are present, then begins to tell us about them.
However, he then goes off on a totally unrelated tangent (Cloud's not committing Seppuku anytime soon, so what's the point of talking about it?)
Next he reiterates that he's shown that a bond of love exists between Cloud and Aerith (NO YOU HAVEN'T) and then repeats his out of context interpretation of Cloud's words (Cloud's not expressing desire, he's expressing a realization).
Life After Death-
Nothing too objectionable here. Though it should be noted that Maiden of the planet says that it is highly unusual to last very long as a distinct person in the lifestream, and that Aerith's own birth mother, a Cetra, did not even last 15 years. The spirits that reside outside of the Lifestream can avoid this fate, but Aerith is not outside the lifestream, and has given no evidence that she can leave, or even wants to.
Several Paths, One Destination-
Again, another misinterpretaion of scene, though without Maiden to aid him, his misunderstanding is at least forgivable. Cloud, in this scene, is standing around in a daze, his mind just kinda chilling in the lifestream. Aerith protects him, and he instinctually reaches out towards the hand he sees which leads him back to his own Body as Aerith wanted. This scene ISN'T them reuniting in love. It's AERITH PUNTING HIS BITCH ASS BACK INTO HIS OWN BODY TO SAVE HIS LIFE.
Also- Tifa should not be ignored, huh? So it's better to do her lip service for your own purposes? That's worse than ignoring her.
As for Tifa's response- She's not accepting Cloud's rejection (There is none). It's about how she feels to the 'answer' the planet is about to give. Let's assume this is a positive interpretation, possibly at being able to meet Aerith again. This is one of many possible scenarios, and is one of the more positive ones.
Pragmatism vs. Idealism: Fairy Tales-
I'm not sure where to begin here, honestly. I wanna know where the idea about the gang fighting for an ideal world comes from. And how this makes Cloud an Idealist (He NEVER expresses idealist sentiments to my recollection. In fact, his speeches near the end of the game are rather anti-idealist as well). Also, note his insistence (via his use of a screencap) that Aerith's Fairy tale weapon has a plot based meaning. As well as his reference of the Saucer play (A MOCKERY of fairy tales, if anything. Why should we expect a story to be fairy tale idealist when that self same story is mocking of them?)
“I think I can meet her… there”-
Again, as for Tifa's response- There is no acceptance of rejection, as there's no rejection and thus no need for acceptance of rejection.
Possible Outcomes-
"What matters is that we know Cloud and Aerith were joined by a ribbon of true love, and that Cloud intends “to meet her… there”. It’s up to the player to decide in what way Cloud did that."
Simply put good sir. NO WE DON'T. We 'KNOW' nothing. You've PROVED nothing! Everything is supposition, logic leaps, and assumptions that just because it can be taken a certain way, it MUST be! Terrible argumentative practice, and certainly nothing that should convince anyone but the most gullible, especially since I can point to numerous examples of relationships NOT being expressed thusly in japanese popular media.
By the way, a quote from Case of Tifa, written by the scenario writer for FF7 and Advent Children. This quote comes AFTER the end of FF7
[Tifa was afraid of her future. She looked down from the sky towards the ground.
Meanwhile, Cloud was sitting next to her gazing at the same scenery but was smiling peacefully. It was a smile that she hadn't seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, "What's wrong?"
Cloud, you're smiling."
"I am?"
"Yeah."
"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."
"But I've always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.]
Immediately after the events of FF7, he talks about starting a new life. With Tifa. Yep. Totally pining for the flower girl. Or not.
One last thing. I'd like to quote something that Cloud remembered once after meeting Aerith, and said in her presence later while recollecting the Nibleheim events.
[Clouds's Mom: You should have...
an older girlfriend, one that'll take care of you.
I think that would be the perfect type for you.
Cloud :......I'm not interested.]
Cloud says himself he's not interested in older women. I'd like to reiterate that this EXACT EXCHANGE is quoted twice, and that one of those times was while Aerith was listening.
Afterword
Now, I'd like to state that until a short time ago, I thought this was the DUMBEST Cloud/Aerith site on the web. I recently discovered otherwise.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
Is a site that attempts to QUANTITATIVELY MEASURE Cloud's love for each lady. You heard me right. He's trying to QUANTIFY LOVE. ::Rolls eyes:: I shouldn't need to explain what's moronic about that concept. Besides that, his criteria are decidedly pro-Aerith to begin with (Of course, if Cloud's past feelings cannot reflect his current feelings, then how can his feelings from any previous scene be valid? Again ::rolls eyes:
, and he counts ANYTHING HE CAN as an Aerith reference for the purposes of love, EVEN WHEN SUCH A LINE COULD HAVE NO SUCH PURPOSE (Example: His apologizing for busting up the church).Disclaimer: Apparently the sites were written by women. I don't care. I'm lazy and will not be changing pronouns.
Like I said, not updated at all.
Edit: Yeah, that's not the smile I was referring to. It's visible in the out shot when Cloud and Tifa are holding hands. It's very quick.
paoo
♥
Oh.. I must have missed that. *watches AC(ACC) again*
Anyway, long time ago I saw a picture when someone had putten all the smiles Cloud gave Tifa, and then there was that pic I posted.
But.... whatever.
Edit: That site was full of bullcrap. But I lol'd at it.
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Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Wonderful, Ryu!
That made me lol so hard. Especially starting out with "NO YOU HAVEN'T"! RapidCleriths are always saying, "We've pwned the Cloti countless times with our proofs, look at the website, blahblahblah". Of course you can pwn ANYONE without actually debating with them, lol. Because they can't respond.
I don't consider them human, even.
And seriously, who has the fucking time to do this:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
GET A LIFE!
And get over your fanon pairing, christ. When you see a site full of essays dedicated to symbolism that doesn't exist and other such bullshit, you know it's desperation.
I'm glad to have met awesome Cleriths here. What a breath of fresh air. -nudges Clerithbito(s)-
That made me lol so hard. Especially starting out with "NO YOU HAVEN'T"! RapidCleriths are always saying, "We've pwned the Cloti countless times with our proofs, look at the website, blahblahblah". Of course you can pwn ANYONE without actually debating with them, lol. Because they can't respond.
I don't consider them human, even.
And seriously, who has the fucking time to do this:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
GET A LIFE!
And get over your fanon pairing, christ. When you see a site full of essays dedicated to symbolism that doesn't exist and other such bullshit, you know it's desperation.I'm glad to have met awesome Cleriths here. What a breath of fresh air. -nudges Clerithbito(s)-
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paoo
♥
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Like, I can't even call them Cleriths even. It's giving Clerith a bad name. =/
paoo
♥
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
'Pinkers' is great, but I love the color pink. </3
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
What, 'pinkers' and 'pink hell' isn't enough?
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
I'm having fun calling them 'rapid'.
Vendel
Banned
And seriously, who has the fucking time to do this:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
GET A LIFE!
Wow that was extremely arbitrary. Some of the lines they attributed to Clouds affection towards Aerith made me laugh out loud. And as far as I can tell they use the 'low' Highwind scene as well.
Oh well. Sanity is for the weak.
Vendel
Banned
If they only knew that Cloud and Tifa was meant to have smex'd up in a Chocobo-stable.
Well somehow that means nothing. But driving by a flower field means tagging a ghost.
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Oh, they know.
They believe bestiality between Tifa and a chocobo occurred.- Status