The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[lunar_crimson]

I'm usually online everyday, but don't post much anymore. How are you, Alise?

What's monkeyshines?

 

[Ⓐaron]

It's what someone decided the thread was after it was neither a discussion nor a debate

 

[A]

Good, we all miss you though, and we all demand you poast here moar often,

 

[Raquelborn]

Not really. What are these feelings that Cloud comes to show during the movie? Feelings of guilt, regret, sorrow for a fallen comrade. How was SE exactly 'trying to show,' the real Cloud was attached to Aerith, in a romantic way? The real Cloud blames himself for letting Aerith die, as he does with Zack. No where is it stated that Cloud has a longing to meet with her after she finally releases his guilt, unless you'd like to come and show us that. The reason why he desires to meet up with Aerith is because he wants to be forgiven by her. There is nothing romantic about Cloud's feelings for Aerith throughout the movie. Note that Cloud had these exact same thoughts for Zack, another fallen comrade of his. He feels guilt and sadness for both of them - what comes to show that Cloud's 'feelings,' for Aerith are romantic when Aerith and Zack both make a contribution to Cloud's guilt?

I was referring specifically to within the original game, as that is when Cloud seems to be thinking and mentioning her quite a lot. I said nothing about AC in that paragraph. In that paragraph I also stated he was "very attached to Aerith" I said nothing about romance, it was after considering the caption other SE staff asked Nomura edit out and the fact that Aerith is singled out over Zack (see reply to The Man's post) that it unlikely Cloud only had a platonic, mother-son or a symbolic attachment to her, and it is more likely that it is romantic.

As for some evidence for Cloud wanting longing to meet Aerith after her death:

In the Reminiscence of FFVII after he saves Tifa from falling into the lifestream, he says:

The promised land...I think I can meet her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZQWvdhAnIg @ 2:21 onwards

Not to mention the caption of the picture that was cut from the magazine article I mentioned. "Meeting her again...that is my dream" being the quote.

EDIT: I see you meant after AC. No there isn't but no one said there was. I am talking predominantly about during the game.

Or you know, maybe they thought it would "ruin people's interpretation" for the reasons you're asserting right now.

Though tbh, I don't know which magazine we're referring to.

Could you clarify the reasons you believe I am asserting right now?

I'm afraid I don't know either as this was what the girl I was discussing the LTD told me. It can't be found on google presumably because the caption was cut. I was hoping someone here has come across it themselves either in debate or simply by themselves.

For a lot of the time he was convinced that he was Zack. I'm sure that pretty much messed his head up with respect to his death as well.

True but this doesn't take away from the fact that Aerith was singled out over Zack even though them both being fallen comrades he cared about, and the idea of meeting Aerith again being his "dream".

 

[A]

Aerith is singled out over Zack (see reply to The Man's post) that it unlikely Cloud only had a platonic, mother-son or a symbolic attachment to her, and it is more likely that it is romantic.

Are you implying that Cloud longing to meet Aerith is romantic? If you're talking predominantly during the game, what other scenes are there that Cloud wants to meet Aerith, and what comes to show that those scenes imply that it's more likely romantic than a platonic love?

I'm afraid I don't know either as this was what the girl I was discussing the LTD told me. It can't be found on google presumably because the caption was cut. I was hoping someone here has come across it themselves either in debate or simply by themselves.

It's the first time I've hard of it, but magazines articles should never be used as proof, unless I can bring up that one IGN article I read a few years back discussing on how Tifa was Cloud's girlfriend.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Not to mention the caption of the picture that was cut from the magazine article I mentioned. "Meeting her again...that is my dream" being the quote.

WHat quote? That's never said by Cloud (or anyone) and is only an added caption.
Tifa is called his ladyfriend and main squeeze plenty of times in magazines.

the fact that Aerith is singled out over Zack (see reply to The Man's post) that it unlikely Cloud only had a platonic, mother-son or a symbolic attachment to her, and it is more likely that it is romantic

Aeris was a main character of FFVII and one of the most memorable ones thanks to her death scene. To the classic FF7 fan she is more marketable/important than Zack, who is better introduced to the audience only after LO and CC. That's why the staff are more likely to talk about her.

She is not, however, singled out in any romantic sense.
She is the symbol of his failures and Cloud shows equal grief & angst over both of them. They even added the Zack/Cloud back-to-back scenes. How is she singled out? In her most pivotal appearance (whcih is at the end), she appears with Zack.

If that's singling out, what can be said of Tifa then, who has consistently been called the only one to know him best and the only one whom Cloud's heart called to? She is the only one associated with Cloud's tender memories and secret wish. The only one whose attittude matters, "no matter what anyone else says".

When does Cloud show/say anything of the sort in regards to Aeris?

some evidence for Cloud wanting longing to meet Aerith after her death

Which is said when they think they are going to die. Tifa smiles, snuggles up to Cloud and says "Yeah, let's do that"

Right after that, having survived, Cloud talks forever with Tifa and shacks it up with her. What happened to meeting Aeris?

Clearly SE did not mean what you think they did.

Also, since you said "some evidence," where's the rest?

 

[lunar_crimson]

Could you clarify the reasons you believe I am asserting right now?

What was Nomura trying to infer exactly

That Cloud allowed Aerith to die in his presence, and yet he was unable to prevent it. Meeting Aerith again would allow him to ask for forgiveness.

So you posed a question and then asserted your interpretation to be the correct answer when I gave a different one.

As for making comparisons with Zack, keep in mind that Aerith literally died in front of him. While Cloud felt guilty about both deaths, he'd especially feel more responsible towards the death of a person who expected him to protect/bodyguard her. Cloud didn't have the same burden of responsibility to fulfill with Zack. And yet, even without the same expectation, he feels guilt over Zack's death anyways.

It's pointing in the direction of Cloud being hung up specifically over Aerith, suggesting Cloud has a more than motherly/symbolic/plantonic attachment to her even into AC.

It didn't point to anything about Cloud having a romantic attachment to Aerith. But people [Clerii] are likely to assert that it did, like you are doing right now, so I can understand why they wouldn't want to keep the line.

To be fair though, the logic can go both ways. But considering that they took away the line, it sounds to me like Clerii are grasping at straws...And all this is of course, giving the benefit of the doubt about the magazine.

 

[Raquelborn]

Are you implying that Cloud longing to meet Aerith is romantic? If you're talking predominantly during the game, what other scenes are there that Cloud wants to meet Aerith, and what comes to show that those scenes imply that it's more likely romantic than a platonic love?

I'm saying that the idea that meeting Aerith again is his "dream" (Nomura put this in to the caption) and the fact that he expresses a wish to meet her at the promised land suggests a more significant attachment to her than a mother-son, symbolic or platonic one like he had with Zack because Zack is not mentioned/it's never been said or implied that Cloud desires to see Zack again as much as this. The idea of it being Cloud's "dream" is highly suggestive of something beyond platonic (which would be romantic in nature).

Only the "I think I can meet her there" quote refers to him wishing to meet her again within the game itself, but Cloud does make a point to mention her every now and again between her death and the fight with Sephiroth. Of course this itself doesn't imply anything romantic, just that she's always in his mind.

It's the first time I've hard of it, but magazines articles should never be used as proof, unless I can bring up that one IGN article I read a few years back discussing on how Tifa was Cloud's girlfriend.

Point taken but it was the fact that it was Nomura himself put this caption into the article, it wasn't a third party.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

That Cloud allowed Aerith to die in his presence, and yet he was unable to prevent it

Not only that:

Cloud involved Aeris in a fight that wasn't hers (although it did lead to her finding out about her origins).
He handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth, allowing him to summon Meteor, thus forcing Aeris to pray for Holy.
He beat her up.
Almost killed her himself...
Then he stood there like a fish while Seph shishkebobbed her.

Point taken but it was the fact that it was Nomura himself put this caption into the article, it wasn't a third party.

WTF are you talking about? Nomura didn't put that caption there like he didn't put "main squeeze" there for Tifa.

but Cloud does make a point to mention her every now and again between her death and the fight with Sephiroth. Of course this itself doesn't imply anything romantic, just that she's always in his mind.

For someone who is always in his mind, she shows up a grand total of zero times when we enter Cloud's mind during the Lifestream sequence.

Even so, Cloud always talks about Aeris after her death in reference to the actual death or Holy/her heritage and whatever had to do with the Ancients. He never says anything about his feeligs for her

EDIT:

Cloud
"I remember Aerith a lot."
"No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten.
That's not it..."
"How would you say it... Aerith was right there all along. Right
by our side."
"She was so close, we couldn't see her. What Aerith did... The
words she left behind..."

Tifa
"That reminds me... I was the same."

Red XIII
"As was I."

Barret
"Me too..."

Cloud
"She said that she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth's
Meteor."

Tifa
"But Aerith is gone."

Red XIII
"Is it impossible for us to carry on... what Aerith tried to
accomplish?"

Barret
"We ain't no Ancients, if that's what ya mean."

Cait Sith
"I went an' told Aerith's Mom about her death."
"Yes, an' Miss Elmyra was cryin' herself silly... So was little
Marlene..."

Barret
"And Aerith... she's dead."
"Guess she turned into spiritual energy and returned to the
planet, huh?"
"But even if she did, there's no way we'll meet her again..."

This is what Cloud's final words refer to. Whether they can ever meet people they've lost.

"Aerith...?"
"I wanted to give her a ride in the Highwind......"

Oh look at this, more people thinking fondly of Aeris. Guess Cid must have been romantically attached to her too, since he remembers her after her death.

Are you people serious?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Only the "I think I can meet her there" quote refers to him wishing to meet her again within the game itself, but Cloud does make a point to mention her every now and again between her death and the fight with Sephiroth. Of course this itself doesn't imply anything romantic, just that she's always in his mind.

Technically, in the Japanese version it says "I see... I could meet (?) there." Doesn't say who, certainly doesn't say her. Hell, he could even want to meet all of the people who died in the Lifestream, it's not very clear.

Again, did your friend specify whether it was a Japanese magazine or an English magazine? Any name? Nothing?

 

[Raquelborn]

WHat quote? That's never said by Cloud (or anyone) and is only an added caption.
Tifa is called his ladyfriend and main squeeze plenty of times in magazines.

It was a caption added by Nomura himself that the rest of the SE team asked him to take out because it would ruin "our interpretations". That's the point, that it was added by a creator who knows more about Cloud than we do, and not by a third party.

Aeris was a main character of FFVII and one of the most memorable ones thanks to her death scene. To the classic FF7 fan she is more marketable/important than Zack, who is better introduced to the audience only after LO and CC. That's why the staff are more likely to talk about her.

She is not, however, singled out in any romantic sense.
She is the symbol of his failures and Cloud shows equal grief & angst over both of them. They even added the Zack/Cloud back-to-back scenes. How is she singled out? In her most pivotal appearance (whcih is at the end), she appears with Zack.

That's true.

Allow me to swing back to the caption Nomura added though, why would meeting Aerith be cloud's "dream"?

Just to clarify what he would of meant:

dream (plural dreams)

1. Imaginary events seen in the mind while sleeping.
2. A hope or wish.
3. Alternate realities created by our subconscious from different parts of our mind that can range from our hopes and fears, to a life-like scenario

If that's singling out, what can be said of Tifa then, who has consistently been called the only one to know him best and the only one whom Cloud's heart called to? She is the only one associated with Cloud's tender memories and secret wish. The only one whose attittude matters, "no matter what anyone else says".

When does Cloud show/say anything of the sort in regards to Aeris?

Yes he does single out Tifa a lot as a very important person to him but Tifa's vs. Aerith's importance isn't being discussed. I was talking about how Aerith was singled out over Zack as a person he "dreams" of meeting again (but you made the good point that in all other cases, namely ACC, that the emphasis on both of them is about equal). overall I am trying to understand what Nomura was thinking when he added that caption in regards to Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Maybe he did love her afterall? Although that wouldn't change that he has shown romantic interest in Tifa and she is his future, it is something people try to dismiss and yet Nomura seems to be supporting it.

Which is said when they think they are going to die. Tifa smiles, snuggles up to Cloud and says "Yeah, let's do that"

Right after that, having survived, Cloud talks forever with Tifa and shacks it up with her. What happened to meeting Aeris?

When Cloud says that line he has already beaten Sephiroth and saved Tifa from falling in, the only danger left is getting out of the Crater before it erupts. There's no indication that they think they are going to die anymore, only that the party is concerned about how to get out on time. Tifa's agreement doesn't take away what Cloud says, it only affirms that she understood what he meant by it. According to reminiscence she says "Yeah, let's go see her" anyway so we can see both he and she are talking about meeting/seeing Aerith.

And again the fact that Cloud's future is with Tifa doesn't automatically disqualify the notion that he had romantic feelings for Aerith, longs for and "dreams" to meet her again. As for him never seeming to pursuing to meet Aerith? Well obviously she's dead and he can't reach her in the lifestream, but in AC he does get to meet her again in spirit.

Clearly SE did not mean what you think they did.

What exactly do you think they meant? (This isn't meant to be a jab or patronising).

Also, since you said "some evidence," where's the rest?

I presented some evidence as I am not aware if it is all the evidence in support because it would hard for me to unbiasedly find all that a Clerith may consider supporting evidence. Besides, isn't a couple of quotes enough? It is in regards to Cloud wanting to spend the rest of his life with Tifa.

That Cloud allowed Aerith to die in his presence, and yet he was unable to prevent it. Meeting Aerith again would allow him to ask for forgiveness.

I agree but why was it his "dream"? Why place such emphasis on it being his "dream"/wish/hope when in AC he says he actually desires forgiveness rather than meeting her again? What was the significance of Nomura inserting that caption to the point that the other SE staff told him to take it out? I couldn't help wondering if it was because it gives a clue to the 'true love' of Cloud the staff decided on.

So you posed a question and then asserted your interpretation to be the correct answer when I gave a different one.

As for making comparisons with Zack, keep in mind that Aerith literally died in front of him. While Cloud felt guilty about both deaths, he'd especially feel more responsible towards the death of a person who expected him to protect/bodyguard her. Cloud didn't have the same burden of responsibility to fulfill with Zack. And yet, even without the same expectation, he feels guilt over Zack's death anyways.

True.

It didn't point to anything about Cloud having a romantic attachment to Aerith. But people [Clerii] are likely to assert that it did, like you are doing right now, so I can understand why they wouldn't want to keep the line.

To be fair though, the logic can go both ways. But considering that they took away the line, it sounds to me like Clerii are grasping at straws...And all this is of course, giving the benefit of the doubt about the magazine.

It is questionable as to why the word "dream" was choosen though, and why he dreams of meeting her as opposed to asking for forgiveness as we got the impression of in AC. The SE staff like to make the triangle ambigious even though Cloud's love has already been choosen so obviously they felt the caption was providing too much of a clue of as to who this was, hence why it was removed. Considering it's Clerith suggestive I'm wondering if I really support the true canon afterall. At the least it seems suggestive that Cloud did have a close to romantic attachment to Aerith even if he's fully in love with Tifa now.

Technically, in the Japanese version it says "I see... I could meet (?) there." Doesn't say who, certainly doesn't say her. Hell, he could even want to meet all of the people who died in the Lifestream, it's not very clear.

Again, did your friend specify whether it was a Japanese magazine or an English magazine? Any name? Nothing?

I took the quote directly from the English release of Reminiscence so I am assuming that this is how SE want the English audience to read the line now it's been edited from the original English translation.

No she didn't because I didn't ask, our discussion lead onto something else. I will send her a message asking about it though, or at least to give me a link to where she heard about it.

Not only that:

Cloud involved Aeris in a fight that wasn't hers (although it did lead to her finding out about her origins).
He handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth, allowing him to summon Meteor, thus forcing Aeris to pray for Holy.
He beat her up.
Almost killed her himself...
Then he stood there like a fish while Seph shishkebobbed her.

Point taken: Aerith's death tears him up more than Zack's for these reason. That could explain why Aerith has been singled out over Zack in this instance. Still, why the wording?

WTF are you talking about? Nomura didn't put that caption there like he didn't put "main squeeze" there for Tifa.

Apparently he did, hence why the rest of the SE staff asked him to take it out for fear of ruining our "interpretations". Also, as I have mentioned above this isn't about Aerith vs Tifa for Cloud's love interest per se, but whether he did love Aerith afterall.

For someone who is always in his mind, she shows up a grand total of zero times when we enter Cloud's mind during the Lifestream sequence.

Allow me to clarify, after he gets his mind back together he is still mentioning Aerith quite a lot.

Even so, Cloud always talks about Aeris after her death in reference to the actual death or Holy/her heritage and whatever had to do with the Ancients. He never says anything about his feeligs for her

True, point taken.

"But even if she did, there's no way we'll meet her again..."

This is what Cloud's final words refer to. Whether they can ever meet people they've lost.

I am tempted to ask why Cloud is trailing off there.. but I suppose it's because the idea is painful to him whether his feelings towards her are romantic or platonic.

Oh look at this, more people thinking fondly of Aeris. Guess Cid must have been romantically attached to her too, since he remembers her after her death.

The reason we are discussing this is because Nomura seems to be pro-Clould&Aerith and seems to have attempted to show us that, but other SE members didn't like it supposedly because it makes things too clear to the fans. The fact is if you showed that quote to a randomer "Meeting her again...that is my dream" I wouldn't be suprised if they either thought this 'her' was some kind of god or a love interest/crush.

 

[mentaz]

I still don't see how this proves that Cloud loved Aerith in a romantic way. In ACC Zack is given the same importance as Aerith so I don't see any chance for Clerith, and by those ideas I think it leads more to clack than Clerith.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

No she didn't because I didn't ask, our discussion lead onto something else. I will send her a message asking about it though, or at least to give me a link to where she heard about it.

Thank you, it's much appreciated.

The reason we are discussing this is because Nomura seems to be pro-Clould&Aerith and seems to have attempted to show us that, but other SE members didn't like it supposedly because it makes things too clear to the fans. The fact is if you showed that quote to a randomer "Meeting her again...that is my dream" I wouldn't be suprised if they either thought this 'her' was some kind of god or a love interest/crush.

See, ask anyone from either side and they're convinced Nomura is on their side. For Cloti fans, it's the fact that Tifa is someone's girlfriend that points to him preferring Cloti. For you, it's the taking out of this 'dream' quote that points to him being CloAer. It just depends on who you talk to.

 

[Raquelborn]

I still don't see how this proves that Cloud loved Aerith in a romantic way. In ACC Zack is given the same importance as Aerith so I don't see any chance for Clerith, and by those ideas I think it leads more to clack than Clerith.

It doesn't prove it, but it is highly suggestive. The SE staff's reactions to Nomura's caption and asking of him to remove for fear of it supposedly making something meant to be ambigious too clear, only adds to the fire.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

It doesn't prove it, but it is highly suggestive. The SE staff's reactions to Nomura's caption and asking of him to remove for fear of it supposedly making something meant to be ambigious too clear, only adds to the fire.

Sadly, I think I'll wait until I hear more about it, because this is the first I've ever heard about Nomura thinking it was Cloud's dream to meet Aerith. You'd think that such strong words would be immediately grabbed by other Cloud/Aerith shippers.

 

[Eerie]

I'm interested in the original article and where it's stated that Nomura said that.

If it's earlier than AC though... tough luck guys. SE loveeeeeeeees retckoning *shrugs*

 

[Fighter]

It doesn't prove it, but it is highly suggestive. The SE staff's reactions to Nomura's caption and asking of him to remove for fear of it supposedly making something meant to be ambigious too clear, only adds to the fire.

Can we see the evidence for any of this? Specifically where does it say that this is a quote by Nomura or anyone from SE and where does it say SE staff disagreed.

 

[mentaz]

I just want to see the article to be satisfied.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I have seen this article. It is an old magazine since before AC came out and Nomura/other staff never said it. It is no different than the magazines calling Tifa Cloud's main squeeze.

It seems you are either misinformed or makign things up. I'm gonna go with the former.

First of all, it was a magazine. Second, it wasn't a quote by Nomura or anyone from the staff. When it first came out, some pinkers thought it was something Cloud said in-movie, but as always, they were wrong.
Third, nowhere is it stated Nomura retracted that statement as to not "ruin interpretationz" because HE NEVER MADE IT!

I am tempted to ask why Cloud is trailing off there.. but I suppose it's because the idea is painful to him whether his feelings towards her are romantic or platonic.

It's not Cloud who's trailing off. It's Barret. That's why I put that quote there. Aeris left them without telling them anythign so a big part of Aeris' mentions later is in reference to what she did: her prayer for Holy, why she left, what she hoped to accomplish by facing Sephiroth alone, etc.
So really, the fact that she is mentioned hardly says anything about Cloud adn Aeris as a couple, especially since all of AVALANCHE remembers Aeris fondly. Note that all wear the pink ribbon in memory of her.

 

[paoo]

Point taken: Aerith's death tears him up more than Zack's for these reason. That could explain why Aerith has been singled out over Zack in this instance. Still, why the wording?

How is Cloud being more sad over Aerith's death?
When Zack died Cloud got shocked, screamed, almost cried.

I'm not saying Zack is more important, in AC it's clearly shown that Zack and Aerith are both a part of his guilt/failures.

Towards Zack:

"I said I would save both our lifes, easy to make that a promise."
"I swore.. That I would never forget. I tried, but I..."

Towards Aerith:

"But... I let you die."

I only see guilt here.
And not to mention that both Aerith and Zack are standing against Cloud's back. Aerith in the flowerbed..

Spoiler

And Zack in ACC when he is about to defeat Sephiroth.

And doesn't it all come together for Cloud in AC then? When he clearly is being himself and all that.
So he feels guilt over not protecting something important: Zack and Aerith.
And in the game I guess Cloud and the others talked alot about Aerith because she also was a member of AVALANCHE.

Btw, I really wanna see a scan of that magazine you found that quote of Cloud dreaming of meeting Aerith again.

 

[Fighter]

I have seen this article. It is an old magazine since before AC came out and Nomura/other staff never said it. It is no different than the magazines calling Tifa Cloud's main squeeze.

It seems you are either misinformed or makign things up. I'm gonna go with the former.

First of all, it was a magazine. Second, it wasn't a quote by Nomura or anyone from the staff. When it first came out, some pinkers thought it was something Cloud said in-movie, but as always, they were wrong.
Third, nowhere is it stated Nomura retracted that statement as to not "ruin interpretationz" because HE NEVER MADE IT!

That's my impression. This has been going on for years and this is the first time I see someone claiming that Nomura put that caption in there or that they removed it because someone disagreed. I'm sure if this was true we would have seen it more than once by now.

 

[mentaz]

Yeah, I think that too. If that was true we would have this thread full of it and lots of essays online about that article. but I can be mistaken.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I remember where it is from
http://www.final-fantasy.it/scans.html
It's probably one of those scans. This site was one of the first to blatantly make up shit about AC when it was first released and the owner/writer is an Aeris/Cleris fanboy (or girl).

 

[paoo]

That's my impression. This has been going on for years and this is the first time I see someone claiming that Nomura put that caption in there or that they removed it because someone disagreed. I'm sure if this was true we would have seen it more than once by now.

I agree. Fer sure

 

[mentaz]

I remember where it is from
http://www.final-fantasy.it/scans.html
It's one of those scans. This site was one of the first to blatantly make up shit about AC when it was first released and the owner/writer is an Aeris/Cleris fanboy (or girl).

ooh so it does exist. I take it that's biased Cleris then?