The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[KissTheRain]

And then there are those who believe there is no "exact proof" even when it's under their nose.

Yeesss...and that is some Clotis opinions of Cleriths and some Cleriths opinions of Clotis, i'm telling you it's all too biased.

 

[Max Payne]

Lol, I simply meant Clotis believe Cloti and Cleriths believe Clerith and nothing is gonna change about that. You believe Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith, whereas they see Cloud loving Aerith and not Tifa. It's taking two completely seperate routes and with no exact proof either one is true.

This is getting waaaayyy too much like religion. T_T

Using reading comprehension skills makes me a "Cloti"?

Religion based on faith, debate based on actual events within fiction which conspirators behind events have made clear.

Other route rooted in denial by most, only one is logical given complete comprehension of material provided.

 

[Fighter]

*bangs head through a wall*

 

[Max Payne]

*fixes wall, bangs head through it as well*

 

[Isabella]

So if a conclusion isn't universally accepted then it's not true. I see. So I guess we'll never really know if the earth is flat or round, because there are people who see it both ways. Good to know.

 

[Vendel]

The compilation is not a choose your own adventure book. It has a story. It has canon.

It should not require essay after essay after fucking essay to prove your OTP. A Cloud & Tifa relationship does not require work to prove. It really doesn't.

That is if you do not go into the information with the mindset that Cloud is hopelessly in love with Aerith. That is where the hard work comes in.

 

[Max Payne]

So if a conclusion isn't universally accepted then it's not true. I see. So I guess we'll never really know if the earth is flat or round, because there are people who see it both ways. Good to know.

Earth is round based off observation, others claim it isn't even though same observations were made. Conclusions made by those who ignore what they see before them should be considered invalid.

Some things not open to interpretation when intention is made clear by those who created it, either through observation or any other means.

 

[Russell]

Given the scene in the Honey Bee Inn with Muki, him quite willing to cross-dress and the fact that you can date Barret in the Gold Saucer; I just don't think that Cloud was into women.

Lol, I simply meant Clotis believe Cloti and Cleriths believe Clerith and nothing is gonna change about that. You believe Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith, whereas they see Cloud loving Aerith and not Tifa. It's taking two completely seperate routes and with no exact proof either one is true.

This is getting waaaayyy too much like religion. T_T

I agree with this, it comes down to perspective, if you played the game and think it's Aeris then it's Aeris, if you think it's Tifa then it's Tifa.

 

[Max Payne]

Perspective is irrelevant given events of game, material provided by compilation, word of mouth from creators.

Comes down to what people want to believe versus content provided in the end.

 

[Vendel]

I agree with this, it comes down to perspective, if you played the game and think it's Aeris then it's Aeris, if you think it's Tifa then it's Tifa.

Except it isn't. See my post above. and I just made this point yesterday.

You can treat Tifa like shit. Get the Aerith date. Get the 'low' version of the highwind scene. And you know what? It doesn't matter. Cloud still ends up with Tifa.

YOUR INPUT IS MEANINGLESS. You do not control the story.

You lose the illusion of control about the time Cloud hands Spehy the magical doom device and beats the shit out of Aerith.

Hell FFVII isn't even a story with multiple endings/choices as a game like KOTOR. And that story still has a canon ending. Lucasarts did not leave it to the players to decide.

 

[Isabella]

The only thing that was up to the player is what Fake Cloud feels for the girls on the first disc. But the Lifestream will always happen, revealing the real Cloud's feelings. The Highwind scene will always happen. Cloud will always tell Tifa he wants her by his side forever. They will always live together and raise children together.

Seriously, people take that dating game on the first disc way too far. That part is variable, but the conclusion is not.

... and Vendel and I said virtually the same thing.

 

[Vendel]

... and Vendel and I said virtually the same thing.

In the end I think we are all saying the same thing.

Us-"this is what is stated by the creators"
Them-"lalalalala i cant hear you"

 

[Russell]

Perspective is irrelevant given events of game, material provided by compilation, word of mouth from creators.

Comes down to what people want to believe versus content provided in the end.

That’s what I meant by perspective, I didn’t word it very well.
People see events and facts the way that they WANT to see them. It doesn’t matter how much evidence there is either way.

In the end I think we are all saying the same thing.

Us-"this is what is stated by the creators"
Them-"lalalalala i cant hear you"

^ This.
Some people accept fact, whether they like it or not, others deny it in favour of what the believe.

 

[Vendel]

That’s what I meant by perspective, I didn’t word it very well.
People see events and facts the way that they WANT to see them. It doesn’t matter how much evidence there is either way.


^ This.
Some people accept fact, whether they like it or not, others deny it in favour of what the believe.

*pulls back from the smite button*

I see. Alright then.

And just for lulz. A cleriths PoV on CoT. (old)

Since Case of Tifa ends with Cloud leaving after encountering many problems with his life at the Seventh Heaven, which I take to mean that Cloud has left for good. I think Cloud only intends to visit the Seventh Heaven and/or continue using the office there. I really doubt that Cloud will move back in because he was so unhappy living there. Once again, I think the story is telling us why a relationship between Cloud and Tifa will never work out.

http://www.geocities.com/ffseriespics/CaseofTifa.htm

It's nice to look back at the claims they made. The progression of baseless assumption is quite staggering.

 

[paoo]

OK then. How about the risque scene and the risque dialogue. Since that isn't talked about in any ultimanias or guide books, any arguments you've put forward about the Highwind scene definitely being about sexual intercourse fall flat.

I have never said that Cloud and Tifa TTLY had sex under the Highwind. I don't even think I have debated about it.. And what I know, I have only mentioned the thing that SE WANTED to make a sex scene between Cloud and Tifa, when they are walking out of the Chocobo-stable. But please, something as important as FEELINGS OF LOVE, should be stated in the Ultimania. "Oh, by the way! Cloud loves Aerith!" < That would be akward.

You just can't ignore the creator's words when you feel like it.

I don't, either.

Well I'm resting on this quote. If it turns out that it's just been badly translated and means something else then I will back down.

Yeah... you're probably the only one who's not rabid. If 'undying' is always associated with love, why can't you show us then? I'm curious.

But then why didn't his feelings of camaraderie and frienship for Barrett dissapear if that's the case? They didn't, so evidently the various feelings and bounds he developed with people while ZackCloud were not erased when he became himself again.

Well... maybe because Aerith was Zack's girlfriend? Maybe because Zack was in love with Aerith? Why couldn't the romantical feelings go away with the Zack in Cloud?

We're talking about feelings he may of had for Aerith. I'm not disputing his feelings for Tifa.

Okay.

But show me that 'undying' has to be something about love.
Undying is something that never goes away. It has been stated that he never will forget her. And I would love to see another quote that Cloud loves Aerith.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

By logic that Tifa doesn't matter, then games like Crisis Core which show non Clerith pairing inclinations serve no point to the story. so why the hell would they make a game that shows Cloud and Tifa's and Zack and Aerith's relationships if he's clearly just going to run off with the next pretty girl in pink? Doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe someone could explain?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

By logic that Tifa doesn't matter, then games like Crisis Core which show non Clerith pairing inclinations serve no point to the story. so why the hell would they make a game that shows Cloud and Tifa's and Zack and Aerith's relationships if he's clearly just going to run off with the next pretty girl in pink? Doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe someone could explain?

It's all part of SE's master plan to Red Herring the shit out of us fans before they make a worldwide announcement that Cloud x Aerith is Canonz 4 EVAH and they have 6 spirit babies. DUH.

 

[Raquelborn]

And those feelings can't be the ones Cloud most openly shows throughout AC/ACC - feelings of guilt and sadness for a fallen comrade?

Hitoshura's already pointed out that the feelings can't be of guilt and sadness because of the kanji used.

And the ZackCloud couldn't hold feelings for Aerith - at the most real feelings. He had absolutely no idea that Tifa and Aerith were crushing on him, and was completely oblivious to their actions, even on the date scene - the love parameter at that point certainly gives the viewers rather than Cloud a choice on to whom his affection is stronger for, but after Cloud pieces his true self, there's really no question on where he stands with both Aerith and Tifa.

I do like this point but ZackCloud being oblivious to their feelings shouldn't stop him from developing feelings for either of them.

Say that if Tifa had died - no doubt that would have most likely been a worse situation for Cloud, as he needs Tifa.

He wasn't aware of how important she was by this point so while he would of been royally screwed for the future, his reaction wouldn't of necessarily been the same. She didn't develop a little world with Cloud like Aerith did so it probably would of been slightly different.

Either way, comparing his reaction to Aerith's death with the reactions he'd of had to other characters' deaths which never even happened, is weak for obvious reasons; they never happened so we simply can't compare them properly, it's all hypothetical at the end of the day.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Neither do I, I think it was the way Mako phrased it.

To be honest, I don't even know why you would bring up other people in debates. I can't stand it when I'm debating with another person concerning the LT, and they claim to have a Literature/Japanese Native/Expert at Love type of friend that seems to know much more about us, thus claiming that our assertion is wrong with a lesson on grammar or the definition of a word/teaching us what only Japanese natives can know/giving us the real experience on love that none of us apparently have.

I never claimed she was an expert and neither did she, she is no more an expert than any of us but at least she can read Japanese. She's also English like me and I never said otherwise.

She just doesn't understand why it's up for debate, it was nothing personal towards you. I brought her up to demonstrate that I'm not the only one who sees having "undying feelings" for another person as unquestionably romantic and therefore I'm not completely off my nut for thinking so.

I've asked that she not be mentioned from now on because she can't defend herself if people start flaming her. I on the other hand can actually post and reply if needs be.

The "special world" thing... do you mean that quote that said that Cloud and Aerith were building a two-person world when they were in those cells in the Shinra building?

The one about Tifa becoming jealous of the world they were forming together, or something along those lines.

Even if in English literature all "undying feelings" references DID have to do with love, we are talking about a translation. From what I've been reading in other posts, it doesn't sound like it has the same meaning in Japanese. I will agree that SOMETIMES undying feelings are referencing romantic ones, but that doesn't matter in this case. What matters is trying to get across what a Japanese person reading the original text would understand it to mean.

Well Hitoshura has pointed out they can't be feelings of guilt and sadness at any rate. He also stuck to "undying feelings" while he knows the romantic connotations associated with that. If it was a strict translation that did not both itself with bringing across the same meaning the words have in Japanese as they do in English then maybe he would of chosen "feelings that do not die". But even then the romantic connotations are there. I'd imagine it's still a pretty epic way of describing feelings of frienship in Japanese.

If the term "undying feelings" is throwing you off, what would be a better English way of saying someone has feelings that will last forever for someone in a non-romantic way?

They'd specify the feelings to avoid confusion via the words used in the rest of the sentence, or make it very clear from the immediate context.

Absolutely. None.

Where's the argument there?

Seriously, maybe this is just some huge cultural difference because at least in the Western world, "undying feelings" carries romantic connotations. It really does, I'm not even the only one on this thread that says so.

I didn't bring her in. You did. So she's backseat debating.

Yes she is, which is why I don't think we should bring her up anymore unless she decides to make an account and post herself.

Because until such time, then you are basing your presumptive position on "undying feelings" solely on YOUR perception and not anything the creators and/or narrative has put out there.

I've already put forward my argument for why it makes sense they could be romantic feelings. I've consider the immediate context for one thing, and the possibilities laid open by the original game. The movie does not make it clear otherwise either.

I'm not basing this solely on my supposedly warped perceptions, so please don't suggest I am.

Uh, yes, yes I can. Based on everything already stated NUMEROUS times.

Maybe you should re-outline all the things that convey he definitely does not love Aerith. I don't mean chuck up loads of Cloti evidence either because having feelings for one girl doesn't stop him having at least a remnant of feelings for another.

This must have been taught in English class during one of the days I skipped.

I for one didn't need to be taught in class that the act of crying connotates sadness and misery and yet we all know that. Unless the context makes it very clear otherwise then we all assume that when a character is crying it is out of sadness.

The same applies for when one person has undying feelings for another, feelings that do not die, and so on, except the connotation is of romantic feelings as opposed to misery.

This is getting tiresome. Lady,

Yes it is because some people seem so emotionally invested that they're unwilling to even consider that "undying feelings" could mean anything romantic. The reason is probably partly because it's refering to the other woman.

Now if this quote was talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then I doubt everyone would be getting so ruffled like this because it favours their favorite pairing.

I will say it again: The word "feelings" be they dying or undying, or living dead, is not a word that automatically carries any romantic connotations.

Not "automatically" but it has strong romantic connotations. Even more so than "feelings" on their own.

He carries feelings for a dead friend that will never die. That`s all. No romantic meaning save what you choose to impose

That's essentially your opinion.

From what I see, you have selected a meaning that MAY be possible out of context (something about feelings that do not die being exclusively of a romantic nature, according to you)

No, my argument is that they could be romantic in nature and this would also make sense given some of ZackCloud's actions.

and you claim that simply because the possibility exists (out of context, keep in mind), this meaning is not only viable, but also takes precedence over the other several possibilities.

"Mutual feelings" has more possibilities than "undying feelings" and yet we can agree easily on what the "mutual feelings" means because of what we know of Cloud and Tifa . "Undying feelings" has become an issue because it sounds romantic, it could be romantic and actually, it'd explain some of Cloud's actions as ZackCloud towards Aerith.

Otherwise you're just attempting to chuck this all up to a friendship that formed in just two weeks which makes some of Cloud's actions seem a bit OTT.

I would argue that "I'm always by your side" is also romantic in certain contexts and is many times used as such.

Well yes that's another case in which context certainly benefits one being able to determine the meaning behind it, like "mutual feelings".

Sephiroth says this same thing to Cloud. Applying your logic, then Sephiroth expresses romantic interest towards Cloud, because since "by your side" could be romantic in other books I read, then it is so here too. This is your argument.

I'm speaking of "undying feelings", not "by your side". "Undying feelings" has much stronger romantic connotations.

Furthermore, the quote is not saying what you say it does.
Ryu and the others have already explained it. It begins by saying that the audience have their own feelings and love for Aeris (note that feelings and love are already divorced from one another so I assume they are not one and the same) and then goes on to say that Cloud as well (like the audience) carries his own feelings for Aeris that will not die.

By that argument Cloud does not love Aerith in the same way as his comrades and the viewers. So Cloud has feelings for her too but he doesn't love her? If his love was platonic (and this is the way love is used in the previous sentence) you'd expect them to reuse it.

Cloud AS WELL means that like the rest, he does TOO. As such, they are not any different from the feelings described in the previous line.

Except they are undying unlike the rest. So they all love her as a friend but only Cloud will be her friend forever?

...and wtf did I do to this font? it`s tiny. O_o

Yeah seriously lol.

Now that I think about (but cba to go check it), Tifa's 'complicated feelings' towards Aerith (10th Anniversary Ultimania) might have been &#24819;&#12356; as well. So it might not be all love and sunshine

Please check. Just for the sake of it.

U10 Ultimania interview in the foreward, P12. Don't say it's not talked about in any Ultimanias when it's from one in the first place.

Okay, I did not know, I know for the future. As far as I was aware it was just an interview.

I'm not. I'm just trying to parse which are actual comments and which are Nomura bluffing the audience before a release, which he is known to do.

As I said before, why would he try and baffle us about Cloud's feelings? It's not a plot twist and it doesn't even change anything so why try and throw us off over it. It sounds like he's just chatting about Aerith and how he thinks everyone feels about her.

Because Cloud still recalls the actions he has done as ZaCloud, and may or may not have the same mindset as he did when he was ZaCloud. He's not entirely not himself, but he's not entirely himself, either.

So if he had feelings for Aerith as ZackCloud then they could have carried forward when he was restored as the true Cloud. You're basically agreeing with me here.

Would have, or rather, could have, since we're not sure.

That's why we're discussing "undying feelings".

May have had.

Yes, I'm covering my back. If I say "did have" everyone will jump unless we clear up whether or not "undying feelings" is implying something romantic. As far as I can tell it is and it makes sense. Hence my argument.

Yes, I will get on your case for this. Apologies. Feel I must.

No problem. It's what this thread is all about.

My point, though, is that In the first one, the Fans have Love and Feelings, and in the second, Cloud also has feelings, and it is most odd for these feelings to graduate to a much higher type of feeling even when compared when the last sentence. Let us use the word affection as a replacement here. In the first, we are told X has love and affection for Y, and Z also has a deep and abiding affection for Y. In this, we would assume that the affection Z feels is along the same lines as that felt by X. Same with Cloud and the fans sharing the same sort of feelings for Aerith, even though Z's affection is deep and abiding and Cloud's feeling does not die.

Actually Z sounds like, while they're feelings are along the same lines (basically strong positive affection), he/she has feelings that are much deeper than those of X. This is what the quote regarding Cloud and co suggests too. Avalanche and the viewers have feelings and love for Aerith but while Cloud's are similar, his are undying in nature. The fact that his will never die indicates deeper feelings for Aerith than everyone else.

I guess then, you could brings it back to the romantic connotations of having undying feelings for another person and all that that means. But even without that, it's being implied that Cloud's feelings of affection are stronger and more significant than those of everyone else.

Which is kind of my point in the first place. It is singling Cloud out- mostly since he's the main character and his issues with Aerith are a part of the story- but what is being singled out is not immediately obvious outside the context.

His feelings towards her are being singled out. Surely that's obvious whether you believe them to be romantic or not?

I'm saying that Nomura likes to lead people on and play little games to make you think, like his 'Maybe she's from Hollow Bastion, maybe she's not' with Tifa in KH2, and he does so much more before a release, to drum up interest.

So you're suggesting he played 'Cloud has deep feelings for Aerith by the way' but then oh no that's certainly not what's conveyed in AC? Maybe if it was about something significant to the plot, e.g. the return of Sephiroth, who Kadaj is or whether or not Aerith was going to make an appearence and so on then that'd be easier to believe. Instead we have him talking about Cloud's feelings for another character which arguably aren't even that relevant to the plot of the movie and don't affect how one would watch it anyway. It sounds more like he was just giving an answer to a question and wasn't intending it to be some kind of red herring.

Technically, a literal translation is something along the lines that 'Also, in Cloud, about Aerith, not dying feelings currently exist.
I think there was an 'ima' in there. CBA to double check.

So feelings for Aerith exist that will not die.

Well, I think lingering on, as in 'not dying' might be a better translation, since as you mention, there is an idiomatic understanding of 'intensity' in undying in english, when the JP literally just means 'not dying'.

Lingering on feelings of frienship still sounds daft. Lingering on romantic feelings yet again fits it better.

I repectfully disagree, but cba to look for examples for a counterargument at the moment.

Well that's your problem. When "undying feelings" are not being used to mean romantic feelings it is made clear by the wording and context. E.g. undying feelings of remorse. The only other time wording is not really necessary is when it's undying feelings of hatred, which the context will always make very clear.

Zombie feelings

! That carries the same romantic conno..

And this gets back into that whole literal vs meaning translation thing Hitobito got into earlier.

Unless I missed something (please correct me if I have) then Hito basically highlighted that the literal translation is 'not dying' but when it's translated with conveying the same meaning in mind, "undying" does just fine.

Actually, yes and no. Cloud has his recollections of Barret, and of ZaCloud's comradery, and can decide for himself whether CloudCloud still feels the same. Not consciously of course, but the point is, that with the difference of Cloud's personality and memories, his feelings could change entirely. And in several cases, they did. He became much more kind towards Yuffie, for example.

So had she of lived Cloud probably would of been more friendly towards Aerith too. It still stands that any feelings Cloud had as ZackCloud didn't dramatically change once he returned to normal. The feelings and relationships he had with all his allies/friends remained the same, it was only the way he acted that changed due to the restoration of his original personality. Therefore any romantic feelings he had for Aerith would of remained the same too, only his behaviour might of changed.

Not quite. For example, in G Gundam, Domon has feelings that do not die about his brother's betrayal, the death of his mother, etc. I should check the original of that, come to think of it, see if it's the same.
I have a feeling that will not die about the fekakte Twilight series.

These are examples in which it's clear that the undying feelings cannot be romantic. You can't have romantic feelings for somone else's betrayal or death for example.

If you were to tell me you had undying feelings for the book Twilight then I'd assume you were being sarcastic and therefore you hate it, but it is the basic understanding that undying feelings usually refer to romantic and intensely affectionate feelings that allows me to determine that you are indeed using sarcasm.

Cloud has undying feelings for another person however and I doubt Nomura was using sarcasm.

Babelfish? I'm sure the feelings for air squirrel are quite important.

Hey, it sounds accurate! Worth a try.

I don't think they have to be as diametric opposed to hate. Respect, envy, sincere gratitiude, are all feelings I think are appropriate emotions to fill in the feeling blank, if the context fits.

And the context would have to make all these non-romantic feelings very clear. What we can gather from the context of this undying feelings quote is that it's talking about each person's own affectionate feelings for Aerith, and this is made clear by the pervious sentence and "also" indicating that Cloud's feelings are along the same lines, affectionate.

Yes, but possibilities are open for a lot of things. I'm just saying that an LT doesn't automatically mean reciprocation, so it's a false premise here.

Yes but it also means we can't throw the possibility out the window.

Feelings AND Love, to be nit picky. Player's have both feelings and love.

That doesn't change that Cloud's feelings are being distinguished from their's, yet must also be ones of affection.

Also, a second clause, not a different sentence.

Thank you for the correction.

And really, I think that's mostly entirely what it's there for. Giving us, the player, the illusion of Cloud being a player avatar to left hook us with the whammy of who he really is. Maybe give us some insight into who he really is, but insight we only understand upon reflection.

I agree with you.

Bobbing on the surface, like an Iceberg, but that's more splitting hairs.

That's the same as saying it's in his subconcious because the feelings, thoughts and motivations present in our subconcious are constantly affecting our concious thoughts and actions. But yeah, splitting hairs.

No, but again, it doesn't validate the idea either, and I'm sitting on the negative case til sufficient evidence to move me can be found.

Well considering that quotes are usually the evidence and it's the very meaning of a quote that's being disputed here, it's difficult for me to provide more 'evidence' when we're basically arguing over how this one quote should be interpreted.

Yeah, someone touch me there and I don't want them to, and I will not be a happy adult male. Might even pop 'em one.

Well well, point taken. Tifa's either a cheeky flirt or just maybe Cloud doesn't mind her touching him there because she's already touched him in more intimate places. Who knows..

But digressing is the best part...

This is true, I shall not hold back next time!

I think a lot of that scene is tinged with his hate for Seph and the sadness of loss all mixed together and Seph egging him on as well.

Although the primary focus is Aerith and Cloud and how he's reacting to her murder.

No, he hadn't broken yet, and he might have lasted a bit longer because of it, since he has something to focus on other than his inconsistent memories, but it did deal a massive fracture to the already cracking ego.

Yes it did. Aerith just really meant a lot to him whether you see his feelings as romantic or not.

Not a sex one? I might have to revoke your Cloti License. I mean REALLY.

A KISS would be sweeter. Come on, would you not go crazy if he pulled her into an embrace, caressed her face and pulled her tenderly into a liplock? That would send me round the bend more than a load of grunting and sweat. But meh, boys...

And in a way, I think the makers might actually be banking on that expectation, just to smash it too.

Realising he has feelings for Tifa doesn't automatically smash any feelings he had for Aerith.

If Sephy was just random, too, yeah, but if they had a history together, it seems no more out of line than a heroic speech in a samurai or cop movie.

When I read that I immediately recalled scenes in samurai films I've seen in which a samurai is craddling his dead love interest in his arms and plotting avengement against the man or thing that killed her.

I don't know about cop shows but if I saw one cop pouring over another cop like Cloud was over Aerith I'd think they were either involved or next of kin.

HATE.

What's your deal with "emo"? Cloud is an emo in AC/C, he's being adorably unusually emotional for a man.

Eyes burning, no, but I do recall some of them talking about how their lips were numb, their hands were shaking, etc.

Probably the shock. Cloud was craddling Aerith in his arms too don't forget. That's something only lovers, next of kin and parents (to their children) tend to do.

I never got that feeling from it. The 'I'm, wait, we're all here' vibe always came through loud and clear to me.

Okay well I guess different people just interpret that line differently.

It's not being misleading so much as it is giving people just enough rope to hang themselves. He's not telling people anything more than that there are lingering feelings, and lets them go mad with speculation. He's good with that.

So he was feeding the LTD portion of the fandom deliberately then? Well we're only a small portion to be honest and I doubt he cares about us as much as simply bringing the truth across. If he was going to say anything to create a buzz it would be about key aspects of the plot such as who Kadaj and his gang were, and the return of Sephiroth.

I try not to disregard them, but I do find that I do have to at times. 'Kairi has no connection to Namine' and such. Anyways, it's not about disregarding the statements, but in this case, trying not to read too much into them.

I'm not trying to read too much into this. "Undying feelings" has romantic connotations and I don't think it's completely out of the question that Cloud may still have some feelings for Aerith even if his 'true' love is Tifa, it'd explain some of his behaviour for one thing. Therefore, I'm trying to make some people see this even though they seem unwilling to even consider it.

And I, as a graduated and accredited English Lit Graduate, will raise her one degree and bite my thumb at her.

I really don't think she's going to join in now haha.

Well, I think it's stupid too, but for a different reason,

Well this thread is just one big pot of ludicrousness, but I love it.

especially since the context is so sparse.

It's talking about how different people feel towards Aerith, I wouldn't say the context is sparse.

Has she seen the original line? What's her thought on the matter?

I'll just paste what she said to me because it's easier.

I mean it just seems a bit stupid, 'undying feelings' meaning something other than love.

Undying feeling for her is definitely romance, but if it's not that then it's quite badly written to misguide like that.

She basically thinks what I think but I double checked with her before I continued to argue with the rest of you.

Anyway, unless she makes an account and posts you're just going to have to argue with me instead because she can't really defend herself if she gets attacked whereas I can.

No, but one might expect them to be referenced in the story at some future date.

Well then you have him taking refuge in Aerith's church and her offering her hand to him on the flight up to Bahamut. Nothing stated or spoken, but possibly implying a lingering romantic attachment to her. But hey, this is one of those times where everyone's interpretations of what is meant by scene x and by action y will differ and no agreement can be reached.

I'm just stating possibilities. I don't know why she thinks that, honestly. I've not given it much thought. I'm just throwing out possibilities.

Maybe she said he was her koibito because he actually was? Either that or you have to seriously consider that she may be utterly deluded and insane.

You just said that she was in denial over being in love with the real Cloud when she had actually fallen for the Zack in ZackCloud and I completely agree with you, but that doesn't mean she was in denial and confused about her relationship with ZackCloud when she was still living.

The players have both love and feelings. To say that Cloud's feelings are in excess of / greatly distinct from the player's feelings when the same word was used in both instances does not logically follow.

No, "undying"/"feelings that will never die" was used for Cloud but not for the players and comrades. This indicates Cloud's feelings are of a stronger and deeper nature.

Where in the Ultimanias, exactly? And what are the examples in game suggesting this vague and undefinable chemistry?

Aerith making him laugh really. It's the prime example of how they had a chemistry probably not that dissimilar from what she had with Zack, as ZackCloud is exactly what it says on the tin.

It's idiomatic for that, yes, but not exclusively.

What reason do you have to suggest that in this case the usual idiomatic meaning is not valid, other than it never being undisputably stated anywhere else that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith?

But the players ALSO have these feelings for Aerith, and it's these feelings that the players have that Cloud is said to have.

Except Cloud's feelings are undying/will never die. More significance is being placed on the nature of Cloud's feelings over the feelings of the players and comrades. The latter's feelings are platonic, so it follows that Cloud's feelings are more than that.

...So, FF7 doesn't relate to FF7:AC, now?
Well, it IS all in the past, I suppose.

Oh I don't know. That quote says everything to me and it's what turned me from unsure to satisfied with whom Cloud loves by the end of the compilation. I really don't know what SE could possibly add to that line to make it any clearer.

Annnnnd I just went on an old school zombie trip:


Terrified, the young blond cheerleader peered through the car's steamy windshield, out into the shadows beyond. Another rustle in the trees made her clutch the dash. "What...what is it?" she asked her muscular jock boyfriend, voice trembling.

"Feelings!" he exclaimed. "It's FEELINGS!"

"NO!" Glass shattered, the coils of feelings wrapping around her neck. "Kill it!" she choked.

"I can't" her boyfriend screamed, punching the offending emotions futiley. "They will not die!!"

1) That's comedic.
2) I can't figure what the hell is going on so I can't really comment.

Maybe I don't read enough (lolz), but is "undying+feelings" even used frequently enough to be considered a common phrase in English? Common enough to carry such a specific connotation?

If anything it's used infrequently enough to have stronger connotations to romance because that's the main instance in which it is used, if ever.

It's not like they have much to fall back on that hasn't been rendered moot by CC or ACC, at this point. So maybe they decided to dig back into previous sets of interviews and only just recently stumbled upon that gem. At least, that's my guess.

Except it's me that's arguing, not "they". I don't see any of these "they" people flying around.

I have never said that Cloud and Tifa TTLY had sex under the Highwind. I don't even think I have debated about it..

Sorry I meant a general "you", not you personally.

And what I know, I have only mentioned the thing that SE WANTED to make a sex scene between Cloud and Tifa, when they are walking out of the Chocobo-stable. But please, something as important as FEELINGS OF LOVE, should be stated in the Ultimania. "Oh, by the way! Cloud loves Aerith!" < That would be akward.

Well they've never stated "Cloud loves Tifa!" either, yet we can all pick it up from his actions and the sheer amount of emphasis that's placed on their connection. The "mutual feelings" line helps too.

Now the "undying feelings" line helps the notion that Cloud loves Aerith and also helps explain some of his seemingly 'clerith' actions, hence why I've brought it up because it felt brushed under the carpet before.

I don't, either.

Again, I wasn't trying to make that personal but you implied that you might dismiss what the creators had said just because it wasn't repeated in a book. I was pointing out that you'd then be ignoring the creator's words simply because they're saying something that doesn't fit what you think and you recon they're invalid unless they're repeated somewhere else.

That'd make us all hypocrites, so yeah, I just wanted to point that out.

Yeah... you're probably the only one who's not rabid.

I'm certainly trying.

But show me that 'undying' has to be something about love.
Undying is something that never goes away. It has been stated that he never will forget her. And I would love to see another quote that Cloud loves Aerith.

If 'undying' is always associated with love, why can't you show us then? I'm curious.

Oh man I didn't say that. I said that having "undying feelings" for another person has strong romantic connotations and is almost idiomatic. Just "having feelings for another person" has romantic connotations in itself. I haven't said it can't mean anything but romantic feelings because undying feelings, strictly by its definition, can be used to describe un-romantic feelings but this is usually made clear by the rest of the words in the sentence to avoid confusion. For example, undying guilt, undying loathing, undying feelings of remorse and so on.

If romantic feelings is not what "undying feelings" is meant to convey in this case then it really has been badly worded. However, Hitoshura has given us his own translation and he hasn't changed the words around. "Feelings that will never die" essentially says the same thing anyway, even if he has translated it more literally.

Well... maybe because Aerith was Zack's girlfriend? Maybe because Zack was in love with Aerith? Why couldn't the romantical feelings go away with the Zack in Cloud?

Except that ZackCloud didn't recognise Aerith and the Zack in Cloud didn't "remember" her so to speak. ZackCloud formed a relationship with her just like she was a new person he'd met (and indeed she was for ZackCloud because he is essentially Cloud), just the same as he formed a friendship with Barrett as a new person he'd met because he truly was. Now when the Zack in Cloud dissapeared feelings still remained for Barrett so they must of remained for Aerith. If this wasn't what happened then you would of simply expected the true Cloud to not feel much attachment to her at all, only obligation and this evidently isn't the case.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I count teenage years as being childhood, it&#8217;s just the adult years and test tube land that is shaky.

What adult years would those be? By that logic Cloud is still a teenager during FFVII and AC. He's not conscious (or at least not in a way that normal people are) during those four years of his life where people normally grow up and become adults. It's why Cloud is still very awkward and shy when he gets back to his true self.

In the end though, the point I was making is that there isn't all this time for Cloud to get over Tifa like the Clerith claim. They claim after he leaves for SOLDIER he looses interest in Tifa, which the original FFVII and CC in more detail prove wrong. Four years go by, and he's all messed up.

When he's trying to figure out who he really is and grasp onto something that is apart of the real Cloud, it's his feelings for Tifa. He tells her that the "real" Cloud will be very happy to hear that she has feelings for him too, and reinforces this under the highwind when he says that "things haven't changed".

They begin a life together, one that Cloud wants, and even after all the events of AC he still goes back to her. So far at least, SE hasn't given Cloud any space to get over Tifa except when he leaves for SOLDIER... and he doesn't.

EDIT:

They'd specify the feelings to avoid confusion via the words used in the rest of the sentence, or make it very clear from the immediate context.

The feelings aren't specified though in the original Japanese, that's kind of the point of the statement. He's teasing everyone because no one knew what would happen in AC. All the sentence is saying is that Cloud has feelings for Aerith which will never die, or that are "undying".

Well Hitoshura has pointed out they can't be feelings of guilt and sadness at any rate. He also stuck to "undying feelings" while he knows the romantic connotations associated with that.

No, you just keep claiming that "undying feelings" has romantic connotations. I don't recall seeing Hito say anywhere that the original Japanese words have romantic meaning to them. That's what I was saying before. The original Japanese doesn't say anything that a Japanese person would see as romantic. You claim in English it sounds romantic and that "undying feelings" can only be in reference to romantic feelings. Even if that were the case, it's irrelevant because that's not what the original Japanese was implying.

To other English speakers, "undying feelings" conveys the message correctly, so it's not a poor translation.

If it was a strict translation that did not both itself with bringing across the same meaning the words have in Japanese as they do in English then maybe he would of chosen "feelings that do not die". But even then the romantic connotations are there.

Really? I still don't understand how you've gone through life and never heard of someone having feelings that won't die, or will last forever, or anything of that sort in a non-romantic way. So you think that Cloud's eventually going to stop feeling anything for Aerith? Because if he can't possibly have feelings that won't die for Aerith without them being romantic...

I'd imagine it's still a pretty epic way of describing feelings of frienship in Japanese.

EDIT EDIT:

She didn't develop a little world with Cloud like Aerith did so it probably would of been slightly different.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a jealous Tifa that sees this "little world" developing? Aerith has just met Cloud and she's already flirting like crazy, so Tifa thinks something's going on between them. When in reality Aerith falls hard and fast because of Zack, and Cloud's not actually interested in the date or being her bodyguard in a romantic way. However to a spectator who doesn't know these things, and one who has feelings for the man, it looks like more is going on.

Either way, comparing his reaction to Aerith's death with the reactions he'd of had to other characters' deaths which never even happened, is weak for obvious reasons; they never happened so we simply can't compare them properly, it's all hypothetical at the end of the day.

The point being made when people make the comparisons is not that Cloud would react to death the exact same way, but that there's nothing romantic in what he says about her death. In the examples you are suppose to put someone else in Aerith's place and listen to what he's saying and think, "does this still sound romantic?". If you say, "no", then why is it romantic if its Aerith?

Yes it is because some people seem so emotionally invested that they're unwilling to even consider that "undying feelings" could mean anything romantic.

Who said "undying feelings" could never mean anything romantic? I'm going to call a strawman here unless you can show me otherwise. What's being said is that "undying feelings" are not always referring to romantic feelings, and in this case since Cloud has never had romantic feelings for Aerith, that these "undying feelings" must be referring to something else.

Now if this quote was talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then I doubt everyone would be getting so ruffled like this because it favours their favorite pairing.

You seem to confuse a great number of us for being shippers.

Otherwise you're just attempting to chuck this all up to a friendship that formed in just two weeks which makes some of Cloud's actions seem a bit OTT.

So he's able to fall in love with the girl to the point that he's in love with her after her death and years later, but he's not able to build a strong friendship that he'll never forget?

As I said before, why would he try and baffle us about Cloud's feelings? It's not a plot twist and it doesn't even change anything so why try and throw us off over it.

Because Cloud is the main character and how Cloud is feeling in AC is a mystery before you see the movie. Aerith is dead and yet she plays an important role in AC, but what role that is and how it relates to Cloud is the mystery he's trying to get the fans all excited about.

Instead we have him talking about Cloud's feelings for another character which arguably aren't even that relevant to the plot of the movie and don't affect how one would watch it anyway. It sounds more like he was just giving an answer to a question and wasn't intending it to be some kind of red herring.

How is what Cloud is feeling about Aerith not important to the story of AC? You have to remember this is before anyone knew what Cloud would be like in the movie. For all we knew, he was going to be the happy-dorky Cloud from the end of the game.

When "undying feelings" are not being used to mean romantic feelings it is made clear by the wording and context.

They are made clear to be romantic when they are meant to be as well.

If you were to tell me you had undying feelings for the book Twilight then I'd assume you were being sarcastic and therefore you hate it

You're getting somewhere with this. Why would you make that assumption about Ryu and the book Twilight? Because in context, knowing what we know about Ryu and the book Twilight, we know that these "undying feelings" can't possibly be romantic.

Just apply that same logic to Cloud's "undying feelings" to Aerith and you'll see why we are so insistent that these aren't romantic feelings being discussed.

Aerith making him laugh really. It's the prime example of how they had a chemistry probably not that dissimilar from what she had with Zack, as ZackCloud is exactly what it says on the tin.

That line in the Ultimania goes on to remind the audience that Cloud is still under Jenova's control at this time. ie, Cloud might be laughing, but is it actually Cloud laughing?

 

[mentaz]

Seriously, maybe this is just some huge cultural difference because at least in the Western world, "undying feelings" carries romantic connotations. It really does, I'm not even the only one on this thread that says so.

When I translate "undying feelings" in portuguese, which is my language btw, it doesn't have any romantic notions at all, - actually the entire quote does not even hint to that in any way - it means that those feelings won't vanish and won't be forgotten. Unless it is stated that those feelings are of super duper luv 4ever, which many people have said before that they're not. The "undying feelings" does not carry romantic notions, unless I'm not part of the Western world.

What I mean with this, is that maybe in japanese - hell, even in english - it's the same thing, the "undying feelings" part is does not equal romance everytime it's used.

 

[Raquelborn]

EDIT:
The feelings aren't specified though in the original Japanese, that's kind of the point of the statement. He's teasing everyone because no one knew what would happen in AC.

It doesn't tease because hardly anyone cares about who Cloud loves
compared to what the plot is going to entail, and what the awesome action scenes will look like and so on. If he wanted to tease he'd talk about that, not chuck red herrings about his romantic interest.

All the sentence is saying is that Cloud has feelings for Aerith which will never die, or that are "undying".

And this has romantic connotations.

No, you just keep claiming that "undying feelings" has romantic connotations.

Because it does.

I don't recall seeing Hito say anywhere that the original Japanese words have romantic meaning to them. That's what I was saying before. The original Japanese doesn't say anything that a Japanese person would see as romantic.

What Hito has said is that it can't be undying feelings of guilt and he doesn't see what's wrong with Cloud loving both.

In a later post he said the same kanji for undying may have been used for Tifa's feelings towards Aerith (or something like that). If that's the case then maybe it changes things but I don't recall Hito saying anywhere that it definitely doesn't have romantic connotations in Japanese.

You claim in English it sounds romantic and that "undying feelings" can only be in reference to romantic feelings. Even if that were the case, it's irrelevant because that's not what the original Japanese was implying.

I honestly don't know how many times I have to say it. Undying feelings has strong romantic connotations but because of it's strict definition it can be used to describe undying feelings that are un-romantic. However the immediate context and wording will make this clear. It has not been made clear that it is not implying romantic feelings in this quote and the immediate context is in fact showing that it's talking about Cloud's affectionate feelings towards Aerith.

To other English speakers, "undying feelings" conveys the message correctly, so it's not a poor translation.

If you're saying the correct message is "feelings of friendship" or plain and simple "feelings" (which just sounds romantic anyway) then I have to disagree. They're just people I know and I've talked to but to them that I've asked so far, undying feelings and the whole quote implies Cloud loves Aerith. But yes, friends that obviously don't know anything I guess.

Really? I still don't understand how you've gone through life and never heard of someone having feelings that won't die, or will last forever, or anything of that sort in a non-romantic way.

See above.

So you think that Cloud's eventually going to stop feeling anything for Aerith? Because if he can't possibly have feelings that won't die for Aerith without them being romantic...

No more than everyone else is going to stop feeling anything for her, but it's how Cloud in particular has feelings that will never die, and the fact that Nomura or whoever has put emphasis on this is what is worth noting.

I don't believe that warranted a facepalm. If I was to say I have undying feelings of friendship for someone that sounds a bit over the top. Undying feelings implying romance on the other hand doesn't sound so absurd.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a jealous Tifa that sees this "little world" developing?

Yes it is.

Aerith has just met Cloud and she's already flirting like crazy, so Tifa thinks something's going on between them. When in reality Aerith falls hard and fast because of Zack, and Cloud's not actually interested in the date or being her bodyguard in a romantic way. However to a spectator who doesn't know these things, and one who has feelings for the man, it looks like more is going on.

Good point. I like your reasoning.

 

[Madame Mayor]

It doesn't tease because hardly anyone cares about who Cloud loves

Even more reason to believe he's not talking about romantic feelings then.

If that's the case then maybe it changes things but I don't recall Hito saying anywhere that it definitely doesn't have romantic connotations in Japanese.

And what I'm saying is that in the original Japanese if you were meant to see these feelings to mean romantic that they would have used a word for feelings that has romantic implications.

It has not been made clear that it is not implying romantic feelings in this quote and the immediate context is in fact showing that it's talking about Cloud's affectionate feelings towards Aerith.

First, before we are to believe that Cloud in AC has romantic feelings for Aerith that will never die, we must first prove he had romantic feelings for Aerith while she was still alive. It's what these LTD discussions always go back to and no one is ever able to prove that first.

The Clerii I've debated with will go on and on about their appearances in other games and coke cans and whatnot, but when asked for this, they seem to run and hide.

They're just people I know and I've talked to but to them that I've asked so far, undying feelings and the whole quote implies Cloud loves Aerith. But yes, friends that obviously don't know anything I guess.

Do they know anything about the context? Because yes, out of context it could theoretically sound romantic, but in context with what we know about the characters it isn't romantic.

Good point. I like your reasoning.

The original statement is from Tifa's perspective, therefore all one has to do is try to look through it to get that reasoning. If it simply said, "Cloud and Aerith build their own little world." then it would be a different story.

 

[I Am Not Me]

You believe Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith, whereas they see Cloud loving Aerith and not Tifa. It's taking two completely seperate routes and with no exact proof either one is true.

Yeesss...and that is some Clotis opinions of Cleriths and some Cleriths opinions of Clotis, i'm telling you it's all too biased.

Look, this is coming from a previous biased Clerith. ALL EVIDENCE POINTS TO CLOTI. If you see Clerith at all, point it out from the Compilation without prejudice or any of your own interpretation. Just a straight-to-the-point statement or example where Clerith is really as canon as Cloti is intended.

Granted, Cloti does not have a lot of those "straight-to-the-point" examples either, but what evidence Cloti does have do not need essays or in-depth analysis to actually get to the freaking point that Cloud and Tifa were meant to be together. How much time and energy does one has to spend in playing and replaying FFVII and taking in every bit of Compilation just to arrive at the obvious conclusion that in the present, past, and future, it was all Cloti? Is it not obvious enough in AC/C that they actually end up together (even if non-romantically)? Is it so hard to grasp that they're together and still are even in DoC? Even if you simply look at the "physical" aspects of Cloti, they are together. We don't even need to dig deep for the romance. We don't even need to be biased. Are those still insufficient proof of the canon?

CANON

&#8220;The body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.&#8221;

Simply put, "canon" describes or refers to anything that exists in the works written by the original author, as well as anything else the author/creator declares to be canon. In other words, YOU do not decide what is canon in the FFVII world (Quexinos, 2009).

Uhh, yeah... so what were those messages Nomura and Nojima were trying to shove down our throats about Cloti?


KTR, I understand your stand on being neutral, but the way that neutrality is expressed is kind of suspicious, imo. No offense. Maybe you should try rephrasing your sentences and rewording some things? I'm bad at English, so forgive me if I'm being unfounded with my suspicion. You know I like you, right?

If you even knew how much of a biased Clerith I was when I first started, you'd practically label me a rabid. I even think KH shows the canon of Clerith, disregarding the appearance of Cloud's obvious light, aka Tifa, who was just a random, shining, supporting girl to me (albeit a sexy one).

Oh, er, KTR, all of that wasn't really directed at you. DDDD; Don't kill me.























I lied gaiz. Clack is canon.

 

[Raquelborn]

You keep editing your post! XD

The point being made when people make the comparisons is not that Cloud would react to death the exact same way, but that there's nothing romantic in what he says about her death. In the examples you are suppose to put someone else in Aerith's place and listen to what he's saying and think, "does this still sound romantic?". If you say, "no", then why is it romantic if its Aerith?

Obviously the person he has in his arms at that moment will change whether it comes across as romantic or not. If Tifa was there I'd say there was some romantic hints there (as I kind of do for when he finds her in AC) but if Barrett was there I wouldn't because he's obviously a friend and a comrade and that's it.

Who said "undying feelings" could never mean anything romantic?

I meant within that quote.

You seem to confuse a great number of us for being shippers.

The snark, sarcasm etc. makes me think so. If people are just matter of fact in their feelings towards this LTD you'd expect them to act like that.

Whatever though.

So he's able to fall in love with the girl to the point that he's in love with her after her death and years later, but he's not able to build a strong friendship that he'll never forget?

My point is that some of his behaviour looks more typical of the guy looking after the girl which isn't usually done to build up a relationship of just friendship.

Because Cloud is the main character and how Cloud is feeling in AC is a mystery before you see the movie. Aerith is dead and yet she plays an important role in AC, but what role that is and how it relates to Cloud is the mystery he's trying to get the fans all excited about.

Mmm okay. I get what you're saying now you put it like that.

How is what Cloud is feeling about Aerith not important to the story of AC? You have to remember this is before anyone knew what Cloud would be like in the movie. For all we knew, he was going to be the happy-dorky Cloud from the end of the game.

From watching the movie, whether Cloud's emotionally hooked up on Aerith or not it doesn't really matter. Guilt is the main feeling he has towards Aerith in the film but that can't be what Nomura's talking about in the quote.

But okay, not knowing what his feelings might of been helped fans to speculate about what it could of been about and her involvement.

They are made clear to be romantic when they are meant to be as well.

"He has undying feelings for her". In English that sounds romantic and no other words have needed to be added to bring that across. That's all I've been trying to say in regards to that.

You're getting somewhere with this. Why would you make that assumption about Ryu and the book Twilight? Because in context, knowing what we know about Ryu and the book Twilight, we know that these "undying feelings" can't possibly be romantic.

Yes, that helps. If a rabid Twilight fan girl was to say the same thing to me however, "I have undying feelings for this book" I'd assume she was speaking of intense affection for it rather than using sarcasm because it makes the most sense considering what I know about her. In order to go through this thought process however, I am still working on the basic knowing that "undying feelings" are usually romantic/highly affectionate in nature.

Just apply that same logic to Cloud's "undying feelings" to Aerith and you'll see why we are so insistent that these aren't romantic feelings being discussed.

I think you'll need to elaborate on that in order for me to understand exactly what it is you're trying to say.

Even more reason to believe he's not talking about romantic feelings then.

Possibly but if you apply that logic to all the Cloti quotes you get the same outcome, they're probably not trying to infer anything romantic here because hardly anyone cares anyway.

And what I'm saying is that in the original Japanese if you were meant to see these feelings to mean romantic that they would have used a word for feelings that has romantic implications.

Like the characters used for Aerith's prayer and all that?

Out of curiosity, I just can't remember, is the characters used for Tifa and Cloud's mutual feelings the romantic ones?

First, before we are to believe that Cloud in AC has romantic feelings for Aerith that will never die, we must first prove he had romantic feelings for Aerith while she was still alive. It's what these LTD discussions always go back to and no one is ever able to prove that first.

And this is the problem with Clerith suggestive scenes and dialogue. Everyone argues about how they see it and sit tight getting annoyed everyone can't see it the same way. The only reason we really have the upper hand despite this is the "mutual feelings" quote that is obviously regarding romantic feelings and because there's so much referencing towards Cloud and Tifa's connection and relationship in all the ultimanias and so forth.

The Clerii I've debated with will go on and on about their appearances in other games and coke cans and whatnot, but when asked for this, they seem to run and hide.

Tell me about it. I always bring up that in the official SE books Tifa and Cloud always appear next to each other, on the same page and so on and then they don't seem to have anything else to say.

Do they know anything about the context? Because yes, out of context it could theoretically sound romantic, but in context with what we know about the characters it isn't romantic.

Well (I only asked a couple by the way, I wasn't going to annoy all my friends) neither have played the game but they've seen AC and know quite a bit about the FFVII world. They know pretty much everything else through me.

I also showed them the entire quote.

The original statement is from Tifa's perspective, therefore all one has to do is try to look through it to get that reasoning. If it simply said, "Cloud and Aerith build their own little world." then it would be a different story.

But did you not think they did? It felt like they did to me, I even felt a little sorry for Tifa because she looked a little pushed out. It looked similar in AC (granted she's the only one that can speak to him because of his guilt but still).

When I translate "undying feelings" in portuguese, which is my language btw, it doesn't have any romantic notions at all, - actually the entire quote does not even hint to that in any way - it means that those feelings won't vanish and won't be forgotten. Unless it is stated that those feelings are of super duper luv 4ever, which many people have said before that they're not. The "undying feelings" does not carry romantic notions, unless I'm not part of the Western world.

What I mean with this, is that maybe in japanese - hell, even in english - it's the same thing, the "undying feelings" part is does not equal romance everytime it's used.

Thanks for this. In English it definitely has romantic connotations but in Japanese the connotations are possibly less so.. I just don't know really. There's no Japanese people I can ask for a second opinion to be honest.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Where's the argument there?

Seriously, maybe this is just some huge cultural difference because at least in the Western world, "undying feelings" carries romantic connotations. It really does, I'm not even the only one on this thread that says so.

I'm as Western as they get ,so it's not a cultural thing. It's a language thing. I'm saying this not to be an asshat, but because it's true. I went to school for this shit. And no, "undying feelings" does not inherently carry romantic connotations, (you've said so yourself in this very post that it can mean many other feelings aside from love). For "Undying feelings" to have romantic implication in THIS case you must already have the presumption that Cloud harbored romantic feelings for Aerith to begin with. That's opinion and not creator statement.

My point, and it remains my point, is that yes, Cloud can have undying feelings of affection for Aerith--good feelings--she was his FRIEND, but the words themselves, given context and story, do not imply romantic interest. If that was the intent, why not simply state: And Cloud has his own undying love for Aerith. Why pluralize the emotions indicating more than one? (in translation, not sure how it was in original form) Because it's not about romance. FFVII is NOT a love-story. There just happens to be love stories within it.

I've already put forward my argument for why it makes sense they could be romantic feelings. I've consider the immediate context for one thing, and the possibilities laid open by the original game. The movie does not make it clear otherwise either.

WHAT possibilities? PLEASE, PLEASE give me an example that isn't her death scene, because that's a load of crap romantically. And I'd say ACC paints a pretty damn definitive picture of where Cloud's heart lies.

Maybe you should re-outline all the things that convey he definitely does not love Aerith then. And I don't mean chuck up loads of Cloti evidence either because having feelings for one girl doesn't stop him having at least a remnant of feelings for another.

Will do, the very minute you give me a direct line from Cloud that says he has romantic interest in Aerith. Having feelings for one girl doesn't stop feelings for the other, no. Just SHOW ME where these feelings he has are revealed and I will humbly retract that statement.

Yes it is because some people seem so emotionally invested that they're unwilling to even consider that "undying feelings" could mean anything romantic. The reason is probably partly because it's refering to the other woman.

No one is contending that "undying feelings" can't hold romantic implications. What is in contention is whether or not it does in this particular circumstance given the narrative compilation and character histories and the answer is still, no.

Now if this quote was talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then I doubt everyone would be getting so ruffled like this because it favours their favorite pairing.

Do you read these posts and what you write? Because YES, if that quote was about Tifa then it would be implying romance--why? Because it's already ESTABLISHED in the compilation and therefore, it would be a logical that his feelings--those ALREADy shown without a doubt to be romantic--would, uh, remain romantic. **sigh** It's about the context NOT the words.

Yes, I am a fan of the Cloti pairing, but there are MANY of us on here that aren't shippers and simply fans of a great story and we follow the narrative as its reasonably meant to be followed. It's not hard, honest.

Not "automatically" but it has strong romantic connotations. Even more so than "feelings" on their own.

He carries feelings for a dead friend that will never die. That`s all. No romantic meaning save what you choose to impose...

That's essentially your opinion.

And saying it's romantic is most assuredly YOURS.

Lingering on feelings of frienship still sounds daft. Lingering on romantic feelings yet again fits it better.

That's essentially your opinion.

Probably the shock. Cloud was craddling Aerith in his arms too don't forget. That's something only lovers, next of kin and parents (to their children) do.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Spoiler

Well then you have him taking refuge in Aerith's church and her offering her hand to him on the flight up to Bahamut. Nothing stated or spoken, but possibly implying a lingering romantic attachment to her. But hey, this is one of those times where everyone's interpretations of what is meant by scene x and by action y will differ and no agreement can be reached.

Did you read the "Case Of..."s? Because no, Cloud wasn't taking refuge in Aerith's church. Consumed by guilt and failure he ran away from where he was HAPPY to be miserable as he felt he deserved. Not exactly a bright and happy place then, is it? Uhm the hand grab fight scene? So he has lingering romantic interest in Barret, Yuffie, Cid, Vincent and Cait too? That chain of alley-oops represented his friends, their faith in him, and him getting strength (a boost) from all of them. Being part of the original team it would be a slap in the face for Aerith to NOT be in that somewhere.

Maybe she said he was her koibito because he actually was? Either that or you have to seriously consider that she may be utterly deluded and insane.

Or take the comment as proof that Aerith held romantic interest in Cloud as was shown in the game. Just because she thinks of him as her sweetheart doesn't mean reciprocation. People get crushes all the time that aren't deluded or insane... just saying.

No, "undying"/"feelings that will never die" was used for Cloud but not for the players and comrades. This indicates Cloud's feelings are of a stronger and deeper nature.

Sure. He felt responsible for her, plus he knew her like 2 hours longer than Tifa did.

Aerith making him laugh really. It's the prime example of how they had a chemistry...

Please to read the whole thread and see that topic was covered in SOURCE material as NOT Cloud at all. but Jenova. **sigh**

What reason do you have to suggest that in this case the usual idiomatic meaning is not valid, other than it never being undisputably stated anywhere else that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith?

You, uh, just answered your own question.

ell they've never stated "Cloud loves Tifa!"

Yes they have. He had a "dim love" for her as children that never went away. But even without that, there's enough ACTUAL moments and dialogue to more than infer romance and love whereas that's not the case where Aerith is concerned.

'clerith' actions

Define.

ZackCloud formed a relationship with her...

Jenova did.

Now when the Zack in Cloud dissapeared feelings still remained for Barrett so they must of remained for Aerith. If this wasn't what happened then you would of simply expected the true Cloud to not feel much attachment to her at all, only obligation and this evidently isn't the case.

Except that Cloud and Barret remained together AFTER he was fully Cloud again to fight Sephiroth, and therefore, CLOUD developed his own bond with him. Just taking a moment to point out a particular gaping hole in that logic...
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