The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Vendel]

They're STILL yammering on with the pointy rocks thing?

I'm curious why C and T would sleep on those self same pointy rocks if they'd be unwilling to schtup on 'em.

Not to mention the whole "they still have clothes on" argument.

As if they would make naked/half clothed sprites for that scene.

 

[paoo]

Spoiler

<-- warning hazardous to your health.

If you don't believe what the creators have said, and is twisting it around in all your fandom. Then... you are rabid.
And they are supposted to call us rabids?
For what? For actually using real facts and proofs?
They are so pwned..

 

[I Am Not Me]

If you don't believe what the creators have said, and is twisting it around in all your fandom. Then... you are rabid.
And they are supposted to call us rabids?
For what? For actually using real facts and proofs?
They are so pwned..

I second this.

To them, it's the creators twisting everything around to disprove Clerith. How mean are they?

 

[Vendel]

Okay....thats it.

400 more pages! Even if we have to transport every argument over here ourselves.

 

[paoo]

I second this.

To them, it's the creators twisting everything around to disprove Clerith. How mean are they?

Yup.
How can SE say things that aren't true?!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not to mention the whole "they still have clothes on" argument.

As if they would make naked/half clothed sprites for that scene.

Dunno bout you, but I'd definitely put my clothes back on after sex if I was sleeping in the wild. Just good sense, ya know?

 

[Raquelborn]

For that to be true you would have to assume Cloud had not been living at 7th heaven before this point. So what makes more sense.

"Now that Cloud was sleeping in 7th heaven does that mean we are a family"

or

"Now that Cloud is sleeping on this cot in his office does that mean we are a family"

or

"Now that Cloud is sleeping in this bed does that mean we are a family"

As I said. For the first to be true you would somehow have to show that he does not in fact sleep where he lives. And the second one would require no special mention whatsoever. In fact nowhere in 7th heaven would require special mention other than Tifa's bed.

The only logical conclusion is that between Barret leaving and Denzil arriving Cloud and Tifa started sharing a bed.

You've misquoted the text. The line is:

I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.

If "now" was part of the sentence then I'd have to agree with you but as it is I took that to be a general thought of Tifa's.

@Hitoshura If you can remember the sentence, how is sleeping written? Is it in the tei form, the normal masu form..?

Why not? If they're hanging out in some other room she could have sent him off to the bedroom to be alone.

It would be weird to send him to their room when it's the only room that would be hers too. Wives don't usually send their husbands to their shared bedrooms when they're angry with them, they send them to somewhere out of their presence to get them out of their hair (eg. the couch, and in this case he seems to have his own bedroom). In other words, it makes more sense that she'd send him to any room other than one they both share/sleep in.

Spoiler

<-- warning hazardous to your health.

Hmmm. I've always been scepticle about the sex under the Highwind scene too. I won't strike it out because it is suggestive and Nomura never said it was cut, just that it was toned down. But I don't know, I just feel it's out of character for Tifa to have a one night stand. *shrug* It doesn't matter anyway, they were intimate under the Highwind whether it was sex or just cuddling up all night, that's what matters about the scene.

In the Japanese dub for ACC (did it change from AC?) Cloud says ore wa hitori janai. Which is "I'm not alone". "Not anymore" isn't even in that line so that argument is total bollocks.

I couldn't read their ACC spoilers...

To be fair they have made one valid point, Cloud's line of "nothing's changed" can be taken out of context. As far as I could see he was talking about the fact he can't say anything to her, not specifically about his childhood crush on her. But indeed this includes his previous inability to express his romantic feelings. So nothing's changed, he still can't express his romantic feelings because he's awkward. The argument still stands.

As for the "blank look on his face"...

Are they not aware that other than in FMVs the characters have an inability to change their facial expressions because the graphics are crap?

 

[lisette]

Well, damn. There's a lot more pages here than when I went to bed.

However, we're speaking of facts in a debate, and rarely possibilities hence Clack pwning all other pairings. If we use those in a Monkeyshines, then we might as well discuss about the possibilities of Cloud and Palmer getting it on.

The phrasing of my post was a bit awkward, but I actually meant it more as a clarification/corrective than a serious argument. A corrective to a petty and ultimately irrelevant issue, as it has no real bearing on the LTD/M, but yeah
Basically, I brought it up to relieve my anal tendencies

Besides, if we're going to use the argument that Aerith is non-hideous, then how about Tifa? She has an awesome rack. If I were him, I'd be more interested in the girl with those, and the promise of being a hero being an added bonus to this.

Don't forget her sexy bedroom eyes
...I'd hit it

By the way, this promise of saving Tifa... I wonder how this computes with Cloud thinking of her in a motherly way. Do boys usually promise their mothers to save them when they're in trouble?

Actually, that doesn't sound too farfetched - boys can be very protective of their mothers, especially if they're single moms or something. Of course, they don't usually make these promises at popular date spots, and go on to incestually raise children with their mothers...

It's nothing that says that the real Cloud was interested in her.

Yeah, there's no official quote that states Cloud was interested in her. There was a POSSIBILITY that real!Cloud surfaced a few times while she was still alive, and maybe felt some measure of attraction for her...but it's pretty unlikely, and equally unproveable.

Marlene slept in Tifa's bed early on while Barret was around

Why Tifa's bed instead of Barret's? I've always wondered. It's Barret who's her "parent", after all, not Tifa. Was it just because he took up so much of the bed there was no room left for Marlene? Or did he have a tendency to fire his gunarm in his sleep and scare the shit out of her or something?

It's a mistranslation actually. If I remember correctly the original doesn't specify which room. It literally says, "Go drink in the room." Or something like that.

Technically, it doesn't even specify even 'the' room, if I remember correctly. Just 'go drink in room,' but 'the' is a good neutral specifier to put there for grammar's sake.

Oh, it WAS a mistranslation. Good to know, thanks!

Hmmm. I've always been scepticle about the sex under the Highwind scene too. I won't strike it out because it is suggestive and Nomura never said it was cut, just that it was toned down. But I don't know, I just feel it's out of character for Tifa to have a one night stand. *shrug* It doesn't matter anyway, they were intimate under the Highwind whether it was sex or just cuddling up all night, that's what matters about the scene.

I'm a bit skeptical myself, mostly because it doesn't seem to jive very well with the seemingly awkward state of their relationship after that. I do think something sexual happened under the Highwind, though, as opposed to just cuddling; I'm just not sure if it was sex or a makeout session. Or maybe it WAS sex, but they just haven't done it again since then? That would explain the prolonged awkwardness - I can't see them still acting so awkwardly around each other if they were sleeping together regularly. Then again, Cloud's just one big sack of awkward; I'm sure he could find a way to make things awkward regardless.
So basically, I have concluded nothing Sorry about the stream-of-consciousness rant.

As for the "blank look on his face"...

You mean that same look he has on during all his interactions with Aerith the whole game (excluding the FMVs)?

Random tidbit: Wow, quoting all these posts is hard work.

 

[Strangelove]

I do think 'nothing's changed' is in reference to not knowing what to say, since it fit in with the surrounding lines (Cloud saying he doesn't know, and Tifa's "words aren't the only way..." line).

And thinking about it, the Japanese version might not have that 'nothing's changed' line at all, I think it might have just ended at 'don't know what to say'.

Seems like just a rehash of the original Advent Children

I think that was the point.

I don't get the complaints about Aerith, though. She still has all her scenes actually as they were (except the second credits appearance). Now Zack just gets the same treatment, that's all.

Or is this just a problem of translation (eg. the original Japanese just said "drink in room" or something like that without saying whose room it was?)

It's a mistranslation actually. If I remember correctly the original doesn't specify which room. It literally says, "Go drink in the room." Or something like that.

There's technically no 'the', since Japanese doesn't have articles like 'the/a'.

I wasn't really sure what room it was referring to exactly, but that it was basically meaning go into the living area and don't sit in the public bit if you're going to emo.

@Hitoshura If you can remember the sentence, how is sleeping written? Is it in the tei form, the normal masu form..?

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12364;&#12371;&#12371;&#12391;&#30496;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#20107;&#23455;&#12384;&#12369;&#12364;&#23478;&#26063;&#12398;&#35388;&#26126;&#12394;&#12398;&#12384;&#12429;&#12358;&#12363;&#12290;[Cloud ga koko de nemutte iru toiu jijitsu dake ga kazoku no shoumei nano darou ka]

In the Japanese dub for ACC (did it change from AC?) Cloud says ore wa hitori janai. Which is "I'm not alone". "Not anymore" isn't even in that line so that argument is total bollocks.

It's always been like that since AC. God only knows why they did it, it's not like they had mouth movements to synch with or anything.

But what the Japanese says only matters when the English one isn't good enough Like 'let go of Aerith's memories', or the CC ending thing about 'look after Aerith for me'.

Even though CC doesn't say that, and no one gave me credit when the ~official translation~ agreed with me

 

[Fighter]

Hmmm. I've always been scepticle about the sex under the Highwind scene too. I won't strike it out because it is suggestive and Nomura never said it was cut, just that it was toned down. But I don't know, I just feel it's out of character for Tifa to have a one night stand. *shrug* It doesn't matter anyway, they were intimate under the Highwind whether it was sex or just cuddling up all night, that's what matters about the scene.

What makes you categorize it as a one night stand?

From the difference in both versions of the scene, "You were listening!?" vs. "You were watching!?" it is quiet blatantly clear that something physical happened. The interview only made obvious what people have been saying for years.

I just don't see why everyone has such a problem with sex. Remember what Cloud said, this was the night before the end of the world and everyone was going to spend it like it were their last. Why wouldn't Tifa have sex with him on such a day? This is a common trope in fiction, the two heroes get it on before the final battle.

 

[Isabella]

And to add to what Fighter said, is it really a "one-night stand" when she's been in love with him for years? It's not like she just met this guy in a bar.

Come on, folks ... she had hidden feelings for him for years, he had hidden feelings for her for years, they're finally getting it out in the open on possibly the last night of the world ... this sort of thing is seen so often in fiction that it's cliche.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Further, when he talks the very next day about starting his new life with her by his side, any idea that it's a one night stand of any sort go out the window.

 

[Vendel]

You've misquoted the text. The line is:

No I quoted the line perfectly. My examples were just that. Examples.

If "now" was part of the sentence then I'd have to agree with you but as it is I took that to be a general thought of Tifa's.

So Tifa walks into Clouds room. Makes sure that he is asleep. And begins talking to him. Then when Cloud wakes up she just continues talking to him? Then Cloud falls asleep with her still hovering there?

"After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him.

&#8220;We&#8217;ll be all right, won&#8217;t we?&#8221;

Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family."

Or is it more likely that her watching him sleep and making special mention of him sleeping there is a big ole "hey they are in the same bed".

One is creepy and weird. The other is pretty standard. So even if you don't see any significance to the "sleeping here" line it should not take a massive logical leap to see them sharing a bed.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Further, when he talks the very next day about starting his new life with her by his side, any idea that it's a one night stand of any sort go out the window.

I know I soapboxed this point a 100 times at AC, so I'll be brief. "One night stand" in itself is a term which is loaded with presumption and disdain. Even if they didn't actually decide to live with each other the next day (which he did), the fact is they are there on the edge of the apocalypse. They have no one and having just discovered their past, they are looking very likely to lose it to armageddon.

The scene is about finding what's special to you - having been built on the pretext of the crew going back and finding what's special for them. Cloud and Tifa have each other and in their way, share what is special to each other - them - one final time before the end.

Is it out of character? No - at best one would argue that if you considered Tifa prudish (proofzz?) then she acted on impulse - you know, as people often do when they face death. They grab hold of what's precious - which is the notion behind the scene.

The comedy of course comes from the idea that having opened up and acted on her feelings, she feels humiliated to have possibly been seen. Neither she nor Cloud appear tactile characters, so even been seen post coital on the rocks would perhaps make wandering friendly eyes seem a little invasive.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Honestly, even more physically open character would feel a little embarrassment at the thought of being seen post coitus.

But yes, in no way, shape, or form, is 'one night stand' applicable to their actions under the highwind, even if they didn't again have sex with each other for quite some time, and the specific question of whether they did or not is rather unimportant to the whole story. It probably happened. When did it? Who cares.

The point of CoT and AC/C is Cloud was happy. Incredibly so. Then he got worried he was going to lose it, and so retreated into a shell. His kid is sick and not getting better. He goes to find a cure. In the middle of this, he gets sick himself and panics, and cuts himself off from his family, thinking he doesn't deserve them/ will bring them misfortune/ etc. as he tries to find the way out of the quagmire he's found himself in.

It's certainly not a story about him pining for the love of a dead girl. That's for dead certain.

 

[Dashell]

So what is the topic? Whether or not Cloud and Tifa had sex?... I find it hard to believe they haven't yet XD

 

[Vendel]

I feel the need to further illustrate the point in my last post. The infamous Cloud sleeping "do you love me" scene.

So here we have what I myself and most logical people imagine the scene playing out as.

Spoiler

Pretty standard strained relationship situation.


Now let us imagine this a little differently. From say a PN POV.

Spoiler

"Holy stalker Batman".


As you can plainly see. One scenario makes sense. The other....less so. Case closed.

 

[Dashell]

I guess my only question is... then why does Cloud have his own bed in his own room in AC then?

EDIT
and I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, I really want to know.

 

[Vendel]

I guess my only question is... then why does Cloud have his own bed in his own room in AC then?

EDIT
and I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, I really want to know.

RRRRRRAAAAAAWWWWW!!!!! CLOTI SMASH!!!




*ahem* What I mean to say is. Didn't someone describe it as a cot? And didn't Cloud use to keep irregular hours before Denzil came around? So why would we be shocked he has a place to crash (when Tifa is mad at him).

Plus it's a fucking office. The only thing that would give a clue that he sleeps there is a cot.

 

[Dashell]

*hides*

anyway:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/stuff/bed.jpg
That's a bed, it's a shitty bed, but it's a bed...

And didn't Cloud use to keep irregular hours before Denzil came around?

Why does that matter? If he had a bed to sleep in (Tifa's or otherwise?) why would he not sleep in it?

So why would we be shocked he has a place to crash (when Tifa is mad at him).

wait... what?
Yeah.... that... didn't make sense... at all... Tifa's not mad at him. She got mad and set up a cot?.. I... uh... what?... wow... uhm... what?

 

[Vendel]

http://www.killthemongoose.com/stuff/bed.jpg
That's a bed, it's a shitty bed, but it's a bed...

And a tire...and a box. yeah looks like a bedroom to me..... /sarcasm

Why does that matter? If he had a bed to sleep in (Tifa's or otherwise?) why would he not sleep in it?

It happens Q.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I feel the need to further illustrate the point in my last post. The infamous Cloud sleeping "do you love me" scene.

So here we have what I myself and most logical people imagine the scene playing out as.

Spoiler

Pretty standard strained relationship situation.


Now let us imagine this a little differently. From say a PN POV.

Spoiler

"Holy stalker Batman".


As you can plainly see. One scenario makes sense. The other....less so. Case closed.

I have to say, I've been reading and approving (do you feel thankful, punk? well, do you?) your recent approach to some of the recent debate, and it's an angle that few who don't agree never consider - that the logic of the story can be discovered without the need for vasts amount of quotes from either side.

If one sits and looks at a scene, the first thing they need to do is decide on the possibilities then assess which possibilities carry plausibility in themselves and the greater whole. As has been said many times (Bella in particularly springs to mind on this one), the "other" perspective greatly stands on foundations built on singular moments that are viewed from a narrow perspective. Single events and narrow perspective are poor bedfellows, as they tend to merge to a point where one loses touch with simple common sense; one becomes so embroiled in what one wants to believe they lose the simple foundations found in human behaviour itself.

And this is where this post gets its props - it doesn't look to counter evidence, merely to unravel the common sense. And I think offering two simple angles on the same scene from a simple character perspective is a very good way of doing this. If the characters are not romantically involved - what does this say about the character? What does that reduce her emotions to becoming?

The most obvious one is a point I've seen Ryu and Null make time and time again (and I must confess to having made it a few times myself) - once we take away "game time" in FF7 and study the timeline, what makes most sense to Cloud's actions?

1: Cloud was helplessly in love with Aeris, mourned her death painfully and then immediately after the battle went to live with his childhood friend to raise a family ignoring the fact she's utterly infatuated with him for two years? (what a bastard - not just living with a girl who adores you knowingly, but allowing a family environment to build to really drive the knife in tight). Tifa watches Cloud sleep because she just can't get over the fact this wanker would indulge her (final) fantasy. Of course, in this version Tifa is also a bit of a wanker too - she knew Aeris loved Cloud and Cloud loves Aeris too yet jumped at the nearest chance to try set up her dream of a family with Cloud irrespective of the memory of her best friend.

2: Cloud cared for Aeris and likes Tifa, but has done nothing with Tifa. The chat under the Highwind was just about their past. They they lived together as friends in a family environment for two years raising a fostered kid and looking after their dear friends daughter. Tifa watches him sleep, because while they're just friends, she still wants more - and Cloud doesn't give it, but retains in this dynamic regardless of knowing this from their chat under the Highwind. Again, what a wanker. In this version we're not really sure what Aeris motivations are - given their relationship at 7th Heaven is at best, utterly unhealthy and really she'd really not want to be encouraging such an environment for kids, makes you wonder why she'd look at helping both of them, as inferred in Case of Tifa and AC. Surely best to try and break this mess up before the kids grow up as confused, sexually repressed serial killers.

3: Cloud had been in love with Tifa, his memories and feelings confused by a breakdown and the fingers of JENOVA, which were reawoken, confessed his feelings and went on to living with her straight after the final battle. Tifa is worried about him and their life together as he falls apart from the guilt of those he failed in the past. Both Cloud and Tifa cared for Aeris, but because there was no romantic love, neither had any issue about moving on as soon as they had found their feelings for each other. Aeris watches over them in a motherly way helping them at every turn, trying to encourage Cloud to move forward with confidence.

Now - which one of those is the most likely? Did the storytellers want any of the heroes - Cloud, Aeris or Tifa to be wankers?

 

[Dashell]

And a tire...and a box. yeah looks like a bedroom to me..... /sarcasm

It's a room. That's all he needs is a room... it's like a studio maybe.

No... I want this answered.

Was Cloud sleeping in a bed with Tifa or a bed in his room? If he was sleeping in a bed in his room, why was he? You said he kept irregular hours before Denzel came along, so was he sleeping in the bed before Denzel came along but started sleeping with Tifa afterwards? I mean... come on, I'm not asking much here, just an explanation for what you said.

BTW I'm pro Cloti... well really I'm pro Clephiroth but in the realm of the real deal for FFVII Cloti is... I mean it's just obvious. I just wanted an answer as to why a bed was in his room. A real answer not an "It happens..." I mean what is that?

 

[Dashell]

Now - which one of those is the most likely? Did the storytellers want any of the heroes - Cloud, Aeris or Tifa to be wankers?

I've always thought of Cloud as a wanker

 

[Vendel]

Was Cloud sleeping in a bed with Tifa or a bed in his room?

Well the logical assumption would be he was sleeping in one then the other.

If he was sleeping in a bed in his room, why was he? You said he kept irregular hours before Denzel came along, so was he sleeping in the bed before Denzel came along but started sleeping with Tifa afterwards? I mean... come on, I'm not asking much here, just an explanation for what you said.

CoT pretty much points to the fact that Cloud and Tifa are sharing a bed before Denzil comes along.

I just wanted an answer as to why a bed was in his room. A real answer not an "It happens..." I mean what is that?

It happens is a real answer. Just because you are a couple does not mean you share a bed every night. When my dad changed shifts he would ride the couch or a spare bedroom so he wouldn't wake my mom up. It was a pretty easy logical leap for me to assume Cloud does something similar.

It's his office that has a bed in it. Simple as that.