The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

The original game shows Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship unfolding. I didn't need the creators to tell me that, but others did.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

"It's all up to interpretation" is in fact a very common argument used by Cleirhs in public debates.

SE may confirm Cloti as a possible canon, but they also did it for Clerith (though they dont have any official proofs for that), that means - It's all up to interpretation.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

It's all they have left. The overwhelming evidence against any romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith has left them with one last argument, interpretation. Mind you interpretation itself still needs grounds, so they still should explain their interpretation with proof of such.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I actually asked people from a Japanese language community @ lj about Cleriths 'dim crush' translation of 'Cloud secrelty fell in love with Tifa'.
Recieved just one answer so far and 'secret love' wins 8)

Stole this scan from pink forum

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

http://community.livejournal.com/japanese/1796971.html

There is a translation made by a non-English speaker:

I fixed it for you.

Is "such pompous declare turns out to be failed" actually English? Such slaughter of English! I'm going to have to make a webpage requesting people stop butchering my beloved native tongue.

It's also missing, or 'butchered' one part:

????????????????????????????????????????
"After making such a grand gesture, Cloud, nothing more than a mere grunt, believes that he cannot let himself be seen by Tifa"

Getting rid of references to Tifa? For shame!


Edit; actually, I always thought that was ???? [hisoka ni], not ???? [honoka ni]. I'm sure the former was used before, which is probably why I confused it. 'Dim' isn't really wrong, then. But I don't think the proper context for it. That's more 'dim light' or something. Something like 'faint' might work better. Like the feeling's there, but you haven't really done anything serious about it? It's not developed into something major yet, it's still just a vague feeling you have?

I think Elena was mentioned as 'faintly' loving Tseng before.

It's also 'was [faintly] in love with', rather than 'fell in love with'.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I fixed it for you.

Thanks xd; Im no judge for other people's linguistic skills, Im afraid

Getting rid of references to Tifa? For shame!

Anyone surprised here?

Edit; actually, I always thought that was ???? [hisoka ni], not ???? [honoka ni]. I'm sure the former was used before, which is probably why I confused it. 'Dim' isn't really wrong, then. But I don't think the proper context for it. That's more 'dim light' or something. Something like 'faint' might work better. Like the feeling's there, but you haven't really done anything serious about it? It's not developed into something major yet, it's still just a vague feeling you have?

This is interesting...
I think "dim" could be a synonym word for "hidden", Im not completely sure, though.
However, I dont think that Cloud had faint or dim crush on Tifa. Its just seem a little weird, considering how SE represents their relationship.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I still maintain it's supposed to be secretly, much like Allen Ridgeley's love for Shion in Xenosaga.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I think dim is probably the wrong word to use, but more than that, it is used out of context.
Cloud's feelings for Tifa were "hidden" in the sense that no one ever knew. Cloud was too terrified to show anything.

As such, as bella said, it is a matter of perceptibility, not degree of strength. So a "dim" love is one that is not clearly perceived by others. It's obscured and indistinct.

Cloud carries those feelings forever. The promise is etched in his heart forever. How is that weak? "Tender memories, a secret wish, no one can ever know..."

Also, how many times is that particular word used to describe weak love? I mean, it's like people pick one meaning because it suits them and run with it. You can't just randomly take one from a dictionary. It has to make sense in context. It has to be used that way in that language.

If I say "our love was never seen before" in my language (in the sense that it was THAT special and awesome), a direct translation would leave you with something like "our love was never seen/witnessed".

You, as an English speaker can take that in many ways: no one knew about it, no one found out about it, whatever. But there is no "before" in the original. Because in my language, those words, put together, are never used in that sense - that no one knew about it, for example, or that it was hidden.

of course, Clerii and context don't mix. We know this

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I don't even know what a "dim love" is supposed to be. It's an oxymoron, if "dim" is referring to degree of depth, because love is a strong feeling. If it's a shallow love, it's not love and should really be called something else.

Online translators offer words such as "vague" and "indistinct" for this word.

vague?
–adjective, va?guer, va?guest. 1. not clearly or explicitly stated or expressed: vague promises.
2. indefinite or indistinct in nature or character, as ideas or feelings: a vague premonition of disaster.
3. not clear or distinct to the sight or any other sense; perceptible or recognizable only in an indefinite way: vague shapes in the dark; vague murmurs behind a door.

in?dis?tinct?
–adjective 1. not distinct; not clearly marked or defined: indistinct markings.
2. not clearly distinguishable or perceptible, as to the eye, ear, or mind: He heard an indistinct muttering.
3. not distinguishing clearly: After the accident he suffered from indistinct vision and faulty hearing.

Sounds to me more like degree of perceptibility, not degree of strength.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Sounds to me more like degree of perceptibility, not degree of strength.

I have always felt this way, but when brought up elsewhere, I was accused of "twisting facts". :-\

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

On further thought, the perceptibility meaning might be better fitting. 'Not clear, distinct' is in the Japanese definitions as well.

Allen's from Xenosaga was another 'faint' love (??????). But certainly not a weak one.

If I say "our love was never seen before" in my language (in the sense that it was THAT special and awesome), a direct translation would leave you with something like "our love was never seen/witnessed".

Which language is that? (German?)

Looked at literally (which seems to be happening more and more these days), I would have thought it was a clandestine affair.

I think it is a case of people using what sounds best to them. Like with 'my place' in Case of Tifa. The official translation just says 'came to me', which is correct. But people still use 'my place' because they like it better. (The other translation didn't help by adding emphasis to it, 'he came to "my place"', where there was no emphasis originally.)

 

[Fighter]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Elena, Cloud, and Allen Ridgeley all being secretly in love with someone and all three being described by that same "dim love" expression is fairly conclusive IMO.

It doesn't make sense if young Cloud was only a little in love. As much a clerii would claim otherwise everything he did up to the start of the game and more echoes back to his supposedly 'faint' feelings for Tifa.

 

[Tir McDohl]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Ok, I have something to show. A while back, I was talking with some Cleriths trying to convince me that Aerith knew the real Cloud before her death. They showed a bunch of Ultimania Omega quotes, most of which only said that she knew that Cloud was not really who he pretended to be, something we already know. But one of the quotes' wording was a mite strange.

"So you won't have a breakdown..." - Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega

I noticed that it didn't include a page number so I asked the girl who translated it, Chibica, to tell me. This is what I got. Page number 156. Here's a scan. It's the marked part, obviously, at the top middle.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/aerithlove527/FF7omga4319.jpg

I think I saw someone here or at FFF ask where the quote had come from, so I thought I'd post it here.

On the "dim love" thing, how is it not obvious what it means by paying attention to the Lifestream sequence? He calls them his "sealed up, secret(*gasp* could this be a hint?)wishes(do you "wish" for someone you only faintly like?)and tender memories no one can ever know. He also says that it is a very important memory, and that he hates to say it, but will to sort it all out.

Why would a "barely there" feeling make someone want to keep it secret from everyone, even now, and why would something so meaningless be so important to the present Cloud?

It's just laughable to try and twist something so untwistable.

Anyway, this was Anastar's reply to dim love = secret love.

No, the Japanese word is "honoka", and secretive is not a meaning of that word. The only meanings given for "honoka" in JP dictionaries are "faint; indistinct; stupid; few; dim".

As for the word "love" in that phrase, the Japanese words for love (ai or koi) are not used. Instead, the Japanese is "omoi wo yoseru", which is a verb. According to JP dictionaries, that verb not only means "to fall in love (with)", but it also means to "take a fancy to". Since no official English translation is available, the meaning you've chosen for it hasn't been verified.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

One of the meanings of 'omoi' (particularly how it is written here) is love, affection.

As a phrase, that's how 'omoi wo yoseru' is used. To be in love with someone.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I think I know which dictionary Anastar is using, actually. It just gives a bunch of meanings without providing the associated kanji. Granted, we have no kanji here, but honoka's various Kanji all have the meaning of being barely seen. Indistinct, Vague, Faint, and Hazy. These four words are all valid translations for honoka, and the definitions they have in common are sight related, not strength related.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

If Naoto is referring to the statement by Anastar I think she or he is, then they're apparently using this thing:

Along with their random translator Saeki or w/e the heck her name is, popping in to tell the *truth* of the Japanese language.

I believe she posted:

o say it never fade, that is wrong. First you have to know, in the dictionary, "omoi wo yoseru" means to fall in love/take a fancy to. Now, to understand what level of "love" it is, you must understand the japanese view of love.

What is equivalent to love in japanese? "Suki", "Koi" and "Ai". Arguably "suki" only equals to "like"... but the japanese usually use the word "daisuki" (really like) when they want to express their feeling to their beloved, so it kinda counts.

Now, basically, Japanese think that Ai > Koi. Its been established many times because Ai is unconditional forever type of love, whether romantically or platonically, while Koi is something that we feel in the beginning, only temporary. When we first fall for someone, we wont be able to say that the love we felt at that time is (ZOMG TRUE LOVE) kind of feeling. Thus, Koi represent that kind of love. Which is why in kanji, first love use Koi instead of Ai. Now...... The most important bit, Ai cannot exist without Koi but Koi can exist without Ai. Why?

Simply ----> You have to fall in love (Koi) first before you can really love (Ai) towards someone.

Thus, the Japanese never say fall in love with "Ai", Instead they use "Koi ni ochiru". They never say I love you with "koi", Instead they use "Aishiteru".

Therefore, "Omoi wo yoseru" (fall in love/take a fancy to), the love in that sentence can only be "koi". Its not true that it wont fade like <3 claim, that the love can never fade.

Even for Rinoa and Squall, its not true. Why? eventually koi will dissapear. Its not meant to last. Why? Koi will either dissapear or turn into another kind of love (Ai). Rinoa and Squall's koi fade and turn into Ai, while Cloud and Tifa's koi simply fade. And lets not forget that "honoka" is used with that phrase. By honoka, it means "slight, faint etc".

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

If Koi must come before Ai... then holy shit did all mother/ child relationships get squicky.

I've said it before and will again. Ai is not something that necessarily replaces Koi. Koi and Ai can exist at the same time, and can exist entirely separate of each other. The only real distinction is that Koi is a passionate love, wheras Ai is more an altruistic love. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Addendum: Celes, no, there's only one (online) translator that I know of that gives 'stupid' for honoka, which I haven't seen elsewhere.

 

[Cloti]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

interesting views,it's amazing how the Clerith try to twist the language to prove their points..
Can someone translate the scan Naoto Provided? it will be interesting to know if the translation is correct.Did Aerith Really saw through the essence of Cloud?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

To further underline the idea that honoka refers to perception/perceptibility rather than strength, two shots of my Random House J-E and E-J dictionary.

Note the honoka, but also not the honomekasu with the same kanji, to hint, or insuinuate.

Honomekasu being the japanese for insinuate. Vagueness or indistinctness of expression, natch.

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Then Cloud is shown on Aerith's home turf, in white space. He floats on nothing, and we see her hand on his forehead. At this point, Cloud thinks he's dead. He might even be right.

So he says mother. No, he's not talking to Aerith, there. He's talking to Mrs. Strife. Ya know. His ACTUAL mom. The one who told him he should have an older girlfriend. Aerith, having just been mistaken for Jenova by Kadaj, sounds somewhere between amused and annoyed. Zack's got a smartass comment or two, but the crux of it is, 'he's too big to adopt.' This is in comparison to Kadaj, by the way. Zack, here, acknowledges the fact Cloud would prefer to be dead and stay with Aerith when he says, "Tough luck, friend. Looks like you don't have a place here."

LOL.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg6235#msg6235 date=1231231849]

Then Cloud is shown on Aerith's home turf, in white space. He floats on nothing, and we see her hand on his forehead. At this point, Cloud thinks he's dead. He might even be right.

So he says mother. No, he's not talking to Aerith, there. He's talking to Mrs. Strife. Ya know. His ACTUAL mom. The one who told him he should have an older girlfriend. Aerith, having just been mistaken for Jenova by Kadaj, sounds somewhere between amused and annoyed. Zack's got a smartass comment or two, but the crux of it is, 'he's too big to adopt.' This is in comparison to Kadaj, by the way. Zack, here, acknowledges the fact Cloud would prefer to be dead and stay with Aerith when he says, "Tough luck, friend. Looks like you don't have a place here."

LOL.
[/quote]

You're reading that thread? Isnt it loads of phun? =D

Try to prove Cleriths interpretations wrong (with SE statements, no less) and ask for facts, and they`ll throw their interpratations at you all over again 8)

 

[Celes Chere]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Yes... *reading* it. ;P

I've never heard a statement like this before. I'm still in shock. :o

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

You missed so much, Celes

 

[Tetsujin]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Zack, here, acknowledges the fact Cloud would prefer to be dead

Noooooo! Noooo! Does not compute!

People should be punished for such bullshittery. Despite all the emo jokes, Cloud isn't actually so emo that he'd like to be dead. What kind of bullshit interpretation. >=(
Then again, I've seen people who seriously said that the scene in AC where he's on the bike and all of a sudden sees Aerith is meant to be a suicide attempt. As in, they couldn't actually show it on screen, but Cloud wanted to see Aerith so he crashed his bike into the next bunch of rocks and that's why he suddenly appears before Aerith. lol

I guess him appearing back on the bike was some kind of magical time reversal power by Aerith which we hadn't known about yet.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Oh my... what a theory there, Tetsujin! But I heard that pink peeps still hold the hope that SE is going to kill Cloud soon =D

After Sephiroth goes, Aerith heals the broken world of Geostigma with a gentle rain. Cloud just stands there in the rain, facing upwards. I call that scene 'kiss the rain.' It's not quite the same as kissing her, but one must make allowances when one's partner is a spirit. He's so absorbed in it that the guy who blocks all bullets but two in the entire film gets shot in the back.

I guess Clukki is canon indeed!