The General Turks Worship Thread

Captain Jack Harkness

not a out-of-bounds guy
AKA
4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
^
Vincent: =D hi guys! let's go pubbing and have party! =D oh, i've founded a hilarius love commedy! let's see that!
everybody: O.O Vincent! what's going on!? we thought yuo can't get drunk!
Vincent: =D c'mon guys! let's have fun!
 

Kassi

Pro Adventurer
AKA
tardis60, dephinia
LOL, Hipster Vincent. <3 I'd love to see him in the Moogle Mascot dressphere from FFX-2. Or the Songstress one, oh my Holy. I really want to see Dirge of Cerberus remade with Vincent dressed as Gunner Yuna THE ENTIRE TIME.

I'd love to see Rude and Barrett dress up as each other for Halloween. Cloud dressed as a chocobo. Tifa dressed as Shiva. Yuffie dressed in a schoolgirl outfit in a joint costume with someone dressed as a Malboro, doing 'Tentacle Porn.' Lots of long slender green balloons would be involved. And Rufus dressed as the Dread Pirate Roberts, because of reasons.

You know what else I can imagine? A 'Final Fantasia' group cosplay, with Chaos as Chernabog, chocobos and giant Moogle dolls in tutus and slippers as the ostriches and hippos, Cait Sith dressed as the Sorcerer's Apprentice, Veld as Yen Sid, Razor Weeds as all the brooms, and I'm out of ideas.

I really like the style of the Rufus/Tseng picture Soak posted. It's very different to what I'm used to seeing in fanart, definitely eye-catching. I of course love the Reno/Rude sketch but it's nice to drool over the Rod one as well. And in the first Reno Halloween one, I love that the 'Trick or Treat' sign is shaped like the Shinra logo! (Can I have trick AND treat, Mr. Reno, plz? I'll give as good as I get of both!)

I just randomly imagined kids on Gaia going trick-or-treating for benign materia -- a tween girl thinking, "If I get a Luck Plus I can level it up in time for the Chocobo Dance in the spring and maybe my acne will clear up and Jeremy will ask me!"

I need to sleep more. My brain is weird.

<3
Kassi
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I wonder if the Honor Codes in schools on Gaia include a clause stating "the use of items and materia is prohibited, anyone caught using items or materia in preparation or during exams". Then of course there's a whole black market for the stuff.

And Rufus dressed as the Dread Pirate Roberts, because of reasons.

Because of reasons. Does that mean someone has to dress up as Buttercup? (Or have Rufus as Buttercup and Reno or possible Tseng as the Dread Pirate Roberts, because of reasons.

I picture Nunchaku wearing in moogle Pom Poms and Ears in to work, because it's Halloween. Then Rod dressing up as Reno to troll him, because he gets teased for being a look-a-like as it is...

I love the trick-or-treating for materia. So it's like the bad houses give apples, the ok houses give candy, the good houses give better candy, the great houses give gil, the awesome houses give materia. (I remember as a kid we'd always drive over to the nice part of town and slip into the gated communities to trick or treat. The houses were far appart, but the stuff was so worth it. Like after the gold dollars came out everyone was giving those away).

I bet there's also a sold out halloween event at the Gold Saucer, you have to buy your ticket like a year in advance though, but the bands are so worth it.

And because Kassi enjoys it, more random conversations with my Turk group.
I have a group chat on skype that I use to communicate with my cosplay group, although most of the time it's used more for chatting than group business. This conversation happened out of character, but as it's funny I'll just denote speaker by the character they cosplay.

Me: Anyone up for Slaughterhouse on halloween?
Two Guns: Haunted houses dont really have an effect on me anymore
Tseng: Me either, but it's still fun I suppose?
Two Guns: Welp when your mind is as messed up as mine things dont faze you much
Me: We're Turks, we're not afraid of anything, but it isstill fun.
Two Guns: Although about a year ago a guy did sneak up on me in the haunted house. He nearly had a broken arm.
Me: ...Maybe this isn't such a good idea
Two Guns: I'm joking, I don't use violence unless absolutely unavoidable.
Me: I know, but I also understand reflexes, but we know it's coming. It'll be fine. This will be fun.
Katana: Excuse me while I giggle through the whole thing.
Two Guns: Shoot, hearing you "giggle" is enough to scare the shit out of me
Katana: -Grin-
Two Guns: Dont grin it just adds affect
Katana:...This is going to be fun.

I feel like my friends could provide endless fodder for crack fanfics.
 
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Captain Jack Harkness

not a out-of-bounds guy
AKA
4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
ok, it's not totally OT
e115d9d9f872c55ed827ddf463b18e5c.png
 
Very nice!
I have some not Hallowe'en art taken from Pixiv. They are all by Takashi, and I don't think I have ever seen them before.

30710285_p1.jpg

30710285_p2.jpg

30710285_p3.jpg

30710285_p4.jpg

30710285_p5.jpg

30710285_p6.jpg

30710285_p7.jpg

30710285_p8.jpg

30710285_p9.jpg

30710285_p10.jpg
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
So I'm extending an invitation to everyone in this club who has Skype to join a group chat tonight to Fangirl/boy together. I thought it might be fun and my premium account allows me to host group sessions. Could be fun. Call it Turk Talk?
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
For the record I think your English is good. You should see/hear how bad I sound when I attempt French (only spoken language I've studied). We have typing and video combined though so it's a combination type chat and vid and or voice chat.
 
Cam, I don't want you think I'm cutting your Turk Talk or anything. I just really, really hate speaking to people on anything resembling a phone. Best friend, mother, my own child, doesn't matter - I state my business and end the call as fast as I can. The advent of texting made me very, very happy.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Don't worry, Licorice I understand. I have a friend who hates talking on the phone so much that if I call her she won't answer and will instead text me saying "calling is not a good way to get in contact with me, please text". It's a bit of a problem for her and me really because I hate texting and much prefer to talk.

This is just an invitation, it's not mandatory to participate or to talk. Like I said, if anyone wants to come and not vid/chat they can just type chat while other's voice chat/video or just sit out the chat.

I'm just the sort of person who enjoys the sound of her own voice talking. I also love video chat because I tend to talk with my hands (and I can randomly turn the camera on my pets and be all like look at the cute and others can do the same, because...pets...yeah I'm weird).

Anyway, anyone who wants to join my skype is SkyRoxable, feel free to add me. I should be on more or less all evening.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Sorry double post, but you guys might find this video amusing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVXSYsUczQ&feature=plcp

(Behind the scenes moment during a cosplay shoot featuring adorable animals)

Then some new cosplay pictures, inspired by some of the fanart shared here (if someone could tell me the artists so I can credit them if I post these on DA, I'd appreciate it).

IMG_1205.jpg


I didn't have a cactaur so I used my Cat

IMG_1195.jpg

Both cosplays based on fanart shared on page 68 of this thread. Thank you Licorice and Bobbie for finding these things.
 
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I love those cosplay pics, Cam. In fact I really like this thing you've got going of recreating fanart as cosplay. It's a neat idea. An the cat is The Cat!
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
And now my heterosexual man-parts are confused. :monster:

LOL, I win.

I love those cosplay pics, Cam. In fact I really like this thing you've got going of recreating fanart as cosplay. It's a neat idea. An the cat is The Cat!

Thanks! I'm glad you think it's good. Honestly, having fanart to inspire me makes it easier to plan photoshoots. Although I then get all picky about the details like, oh I was supposed to be wearing a belt and who put the gun facing towards me? But over all I'm glad it turned out all right.

I'm glad you like my cat, if you want to use a picture of my cat in your fic, feel free. (Actually, the picture of the kitten with the 'materia' might make an interesting cover picture).

Today Dark Nation, who despite being a German Shepherd mix thinks he's a cat (he bats at things with his paws and rubs against people, in addition to licking them), put his paw up on the coffee table to bat at the cat the cat then put his paw down on top of Dark Nation's paw. It was pretty much the cuttest thing ever and now I want fanart of Rufus's Dark Nation and The Cat doing that.
 
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I thought I'd take the time to mention that a while ago I watched all available footage of Before Crisis. It was the most boring, monotonous thing I have ever had to watch. Now I can watch other poor pieces of fiction and breath a sigh of relief because "at least it's not Before Crisis".

But I have a question to you Turks experts out there.

How would you write Reno's character and actions in an FFVII remake, with Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis continuity in mind?

The elephant in the room for me is the same as always: Reno pushing the button that leads to the collapse of Sector 7. This action kills hundreds of people and he must have been clearly aware that this would happen.

Flashback to Chapter 13 in BC. See 05:34 in this recording. The Turks refuse to move the Nibelheim survivors to Hojo's lab. Tseng says that the work is too dirty and Reno even says "I simply can't do it".

That Reno has qualms about these orders does not work well with his participation, five years after, in causing the death of hundreds of people in Midgar. He cared about a group of strangers in Nibelheim but not about people in the city that could be considered his home.

Tseng too appears more ruthless in OG than his BC self would allow. I can buy him slapping Aerith, but seeing him laugh devilishly before the pillar explodes? It just doesn't work in my mind. Why is this work suddenly not too dirty?

Even if we assume that Reno changed into a less empathic guy by the time of the original game, both the BC Epilogue and the Case of Shinra shows the Turks' more empathic side by having them evacuate Midgar during Meteorfall.

Case of Shinra said:
“There is no point in thinking about what happens after the Meteor impacts. We will keep working and assume the planet will overcome this disaster,” said Tseng before he ordered his subordinates to help with rescue efforts while taking everyone else to shelters. The town was already feeling the effects of the Meteor in close proximity. Soon the powerful storms and earthquakes rocked Midgar, bringing down the buildings. The city of steel screamed as if it was caught in surprise.

“It’s just like the chief to use his last orders for good deeds,” muttered Rude.

“What about it?”

“Atonement.”

“I see.”

...

As he helped the citizens of Midgar back at that moment, Reno pushed himself beyond his limits and never stopped to take a break.

Which means that an FFVII remake would have to show not only how and why the Turks ended up fulfilling their mission to destroy Sector 7 but also show how they transition to become interested in atonement.

So how would you go about it? I myself have no idea.



There appears to already have been some change in the canon of the Sector 7 events. In the original game, the pillar collapsing is caused by a time bomb. The time bomb is in fact an "Emergency Release System", as revealed by Tseng.

“Only a Shinra Executive can set up or disarm
the Emergency Plate Release System.”

Not only does this appear odd to have an "Emergency Release System" for a SUPPORTING PILLAR but we also have the in-game contradiction that Tseng says

Tseng
“That's right.
You'll have a hard time disarming that one.”
“It'll blow the second some stupid jerk
touches it.”

after Tifa just spent seconds pushing random buttons.

However in Case of Denzel (or the animé version, "Episode Denzel") Arkham appears to hint at a different scenario.

Xcomp's translation of Case of Denzel:
"You're still here, sir? The Turks are already making their move. They're nearly done planting the bombs. My colleagues have organised some transportation."

Whether by intention or accident, Nojima appears to have changed the role of the Turks here. One that makes more sense imo. Rather than pressing a button that was there from the start, they plant the bombs that destroy the pillar. I assume of course that only the pillar is involved. So without causing further changes in continuity, an FFVII remake would have to use this new version of the Sector 7 collapse.
 
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Captain Jack Harkness

not a out-of-bounds guy
AKA
4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
about the "that's too dirty", i always thought it was the most OOC a turk (especially someone as Reno or Tseng) could say.
but i've a theory about Nibelheim which says that, for some strange reason, every turk who enter in the village became a sentimentalist and a moralist, every asocial guy suddenly start talk about personal things and the Shinra Mansion change form every time a team enter inside (and the chosen form is caused by the main character inside)
 
This detail about Reno's character is the only thing that I miss from Last Order. Reno appears to have a more "do the dirty work no matter what" attitude there, in response to the questionable mission of capturing Zack and Cloud.

Last Order on YT

But with Last Order no longer being part of FFVII continuity, well...this animation really doesn't matter.
 
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But I have a question to you Turks experts out there.

How would you write Reno's character and actions in an FFVII remake, with Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis continuity in mind?

The elephant in the room for me is the same as always: Reno pushing the button that leads to the collapse of Sector 7. This action kills hundreds of people and he must have been clearly aware that this would happen.

Flashback to Chapter 13 in BC. See 05:34 in this recording. The Turks refuse to move the Nibelheim survivors to Hojo's lab. Tseng says that the work is too dirty and Reno even says "I simply can't do it".

That Reno has qualms about these orders does not work well with his participation, five years after, in causing the death of hundreds of people in Midgar. He cared about a group of strangers in Nibelheim but not about people in the city that could be considered his home.

Tseng too appears more ruthless in OG than his BC self would allow. I can buy him slapping Aerith, but seeing him laugh devilishly before the pillar explodes? It just doesn't work in my mind. Why is this work suddenly not too dirty?

Even if we assume that Reno changed into a less empathic guy by the time of the original game, both the BC Epilogue and the Case of Shinra shows the Turks' more empathic side by having them evacuate Midgar during Meteorfall.

Which means that an FFVII remake would have to show not only how and why the Turks ended up fulfilling their mission to destroy Sector 7 but also show how they transition to become interested in atonement.

So how would you go about it? I myself have no idea.

There appears to already have been some change in the canon of the Sector 7 events. In the original game, the pillar collapsing is caused by a time bomb. The time bomb is in fact an "Emergency Release System", as revealed by Tseng.



Not only does this appear odd to have an "Emergency Release System" for a SUPPORTING PILLAR but we also have the in-game contradiction that Tseng says



after Tifa just spent seconds pushing random buttons.

However in Case of Denzel (or the animé version, "Episode Denzel") Arkham appears to hint at a different scenario.

Xcomp's translation of Case of Denzel:


Whether by intention or accident, Nojima appears to have changed the role of the Turks here. One that makes more sense imo. Rather than pressing a button that was there from the start, they plant the bombs that destroy the pillar. I assume of course that only the pillar is involved. So without causing further changes in continuity, an FFVII remake would have to use this new version of the Sector 7 collapse.

I guess you don't read too much Turkfic, do you, Shademp? A huge sub-genre has grown around the dropping of the plate and Reno's role therein. According to one plot-line popular with Reno's apologists, Shinra are holding people he loves hostage (it might be Rude, Tseng, Elena, Rufus, one or more of the BC Turks, or some OC daughter/ son/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/mother etc.... In this trope, he drops the plate because he fears that his loved ones will be killed if he doesn't follow orders. Another quite popular trope maintains that he was drugged, or that he was lied to.

I read a good fic recently in which he and Tseng staged the attack on the pillar in the hope od drawing Avalanche out to fight, thinking that if they could capture Avalanche, the plate drop would be cancelled. In this version, if I remember rightly, Shinra double-crossed the Turks by dropping the plate too soon.

Myself, I find the most compelling explanation is the simplest: Reno did it because it was his job. President Shinra had made up his mind that the plate was to be dropped, and if Reno hadn't done it, someone else would have.

I think it's worth remembering that Avalanche (Tifa, Barret, Cloud) also killed many innocent people when they blew up the reactors, as Reeve reminds them after Diamond Weapon is killed. This reminder angers Barret, but Tifa says that Reeve is right. The difference is only a quantitative one. In the struggle between Shinra and Avalanche, the ante was continually being upped, and both sides were losing sight of the fact that, as Cait Sith says, "What may be a few to you is everything to those who died."

Cait Sith: A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is everythin' to them who died...... Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good! Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do whatever y'all want?

Barret: I don't want hear from no one in Shinra...


It's an article of faith with Barret that Shinra sre the bad guys, the human rights abusers, enemies of humanity. But he is wrong. I've always believed that the point the writers were trying to make with this game is that there are no straightforward good guys and bad guys. Just as with Aerith, who dies and there's nothing that can bring her back because that's how it is in real life, so the line between good and evil is not clear-cut. There are no simple villains (except maybe Hojo, but I don't want to get into that). Barret himself points out that Rufus does some brave and intelligent things. Nor does the Planet distinguish between the innocent and the guilty. Either all human beings will be punished or all will be spared. The fact that they might have been Shinra employees or supporters of Avalanche is neither here nor there.

The game itself never treats Reno (or any of the Turks) as any more "guilty" than Avalanche. As far as I can remember, no one in the party ever says to Reno, "Payback time for what you did in Sector 7". In fact, ironically, that's Reno's line. Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc... don't appear to hold him personally responsible for the plate-drop. Aerith, too, seems torn between her personal feelings for Tseng and the urgent business of saving the Planet which she has come to the Temple of the Ancient to accomplish. She won't help him - or can't afford to help him - but she's not exactly gloating about it.

This is turning into a very long answer. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see the need for a ret-con over the plate-drop. Reno's refusal, in the Wutai side-quest, to cut short his holiday drinking in order to hep the army capture Don Corneo, is actually more OOC for his CC/BC/ACC self than the plate-drop. One of his defining characteristics is his absolute loyalty to Shinra, which in his mind is probably synonymous with the Turks. When he is ordered to do something, he does it. I suppose the reason he told the squaddies in Wutai to take a hike is because they had no authority over him. If Tseng had phoned him with the order he'd have got right on it.

In the Nibelheim episode of BC, are Tseng and Reno actually refusing to obey an order? Or are they expressing their dismay over the order? The plate-drop order comes from the President and questioning it would have been unthinkable, but the Turks don't have the same respect for Hojo, and his orders are not sancrosanct. So they are really expressing their dismay over what Hojo plans to do to the Nibelheim survivors. One could even argue that knowingly handing injured people over to a mad scientist for use in his so-called experiments is a much dirtier business than merely killing them. Nevertheless, if Veld had insisted, they would have obeyed. He chooses not to force them, because he doesn't want them to become as grim as he is.

Finally, there's a big qualitative difference between the two sets of casualities. In the plate-drop, Reno is crushing a bunch of nameless, faceless numbers. In Nibelheim, he is being ask to lead into a torture chamber people whom he rescued and was already committed to helping. He probably helped to bind up their wounds. He probably asked some of them their names. They may have been fewer in number than the inhabitants of Sector 7, but they were real people to him, individuals. The mass of humanity being crushed by the plate-drop were not.

PS: I find it really hard to believe that Reno's not being sarcastic when he says, "Just like the Chief to use his last orders for good." (I assume he is referring to Veld there, not Tseng.) Veld is not a good man. But Reno is obviously being sincere, so I can only suppose he's in denial over what the Turk father-figure is really like. It's understandable.
 
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CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I thought I'd take the time to mention that a while ago I watched all available footage of Before Crisis. It was the most boring, monotonous thing I have ever had to watch. Now I can watch other poor pieces of fiction and breath a sigh of relief because "at least it's not Before Crisis".

Oh? That's too bad. I love it. I mean, it's more of a story game, but I like the story. I like the idea of the characters and their different personalities and I like the way it does address interesting questions of morality. Although I red the script rather than watching the play through because it’s difficult to skip over the fights. I also enjoy reading game scripts. But to each their own.

As to that elephant in the room, I believe many Turk fans have thought about it. I think the existing canon explains things fairly well. Tseng acted evil in front of Aerith because he thought it would be easier for her if she could hate him and see him as purely evil. Kinder to be a monster than a good man who claimed to care about her but wouldn’t help her, and so Tseng acted evil for her benefit (Case of Shinra explains this).

As for Reno, I think Before Crisis shows a progression; the Turks weren’t always the people they are in the original game. By the time Reno drops the plate he’s become a darker character. However, I think Before Crisis explains why the Turks couldn’t refuse the order perfectly well.

The President was going to kill all of them and the only thing that stayed his hand was Rufus personally vouching for the Turks. Of course, that doesn’t mean the President trusts them fully, and everyone else on the board aside from Reeve wouldn’t mind seeing them dead (Scarlet especially is probably still out for their blood). Any further insubordination while the President lives could mean the end of them.

So what? Die rather than carrying out the order? What good would that do? Shinra Company wants the plate dropped, the plate will be dropped. If the Turks won’t do the job, someone else will. Dying to make a statement may be noble, but the Turks are more pragmatic. Besides, their lives are not their own to throw away. Rufus Shinra saved them and for that they are in his debt. Their lives belong to Rufus, they must be there for him when he needs them.

How would it be for him if right after he sticks his neck out to save them they betray Shinra. It’s not like the President trusts his son. Why should he, Rufus was a traitor. Even after his release Rufus is essentially banished to Junon. The President is keeping Rufus at a distance, he gave him sparing the Turks sure, maybe to throw him a bone in the hopes he’ll stay in line. However, if the Turks betray Shinra, Rufus either looks stupid or in league with the traitors. If the President does come to suspect Rufus is in league with them, he might do digging and discover Rufus faked the deaths of the rest of the Turks and covered it up.

The President forgave one act of treason, but another betrayal, right after Rufus’s release? It would not leave the Vice President in a very good position. So the Turks must be loyal to Shinra, and carrying out the orders. Even the ones meant to test their loyalty, to punish them, the dirty work they don’t want to carry out but must resign themselves to. Not out of wickedness, or fondness for the Company, but for Rufus’s sake. He is their hope, and if they can play the loyal servants long enough for him to come to power things will get better for them, because they know Rufus Shinra is on their side. That’s the deal, he’s on their side, they’re on his, and that is why they remain loyal.

Reno says in the original game that it’s not worth it to die for your job, but what is worth dying for…when does the job matter? The instant Corneo takes Elena, it would be worth fighting, even dying to save one of their own. Rufus Shinra seems to be worth it, the Turks don’t hesitate to race to his rescue after WEAPON hits the building.

In summation, by the time plate was dropped the Turks could not refuse orders. I don’t think later canon (Before Crisis, Case of Shinra) is incompatible with original game but rather makes it more interesting by revealing another side to the story.

Bad men doing bad things isn’t nearly so fascinating as decent men, maybe even good men, doing horrible things and the circumstances that led them there.

I hope that made sense, and if any of my theories contradict canon please let me know.

Also Shademp, I don't know if you read fanfic, but I'm writing an adaptation of The Case of Shinra that goes into the events of the original games with an eye towards the characterization shown in CoS and BC. If you're interested, feel free to check it out.
 
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