After reading what both Licorice and Cameo wrote I conclude that the most important thing an FFVII remake should do in this topic is not necessarily to rewrite how the fall of Sector 7 plays out (in terms of dialogue) but to acknowledge a grudge between AVALANCHE and Reno, even if only briefly.
Given the more realistic, serious tone that I think would pervade a modern rendition of the original game it only makes sense to me that a grudge/desire-for-revenge should be expressed and in some way resolved.
We might imagine this happening in Gongaga. Barret says that it's time Reno paid for what he did in Sector 7, followed by Reno's response "Says the guy who blew up the mako reactor".
What I'm saying is that any desire for revenge that Barret/Tifa/Cloud might have will not be quenched by simply slapping Reno in the face in Midgar, Gongaga, Gelnika (and Midgar again on disc 2). That just doesn't work in my mind. The plot of revenge should be explored. Exactly how it should play out I'm not sure but it should happen in such a way that the events of Advent Children appear less jarring for us. Is it canon that when Tifa picks up the phone at the beginning of the movie that it is Reno on the other end? If so, then I'd need an additional reason via OG to explain why Tifa sounds happy to hear his voice.
Tidbit: Episode Denzel provides us with an estimated body count after the destruction of Mako Reactor #1. This part does not seem to exist in the novel.
"--the estimated death toll has risen to 230 people."
We should safely assume then that the death toll was much higher for Sector 7. ...I realized only just now though that I blindly trusted a Shinra broadcast. Maybe that's not such a good idea?
Final remake musings for now: I wouldn't mind, in a remake, the possibility to unlock scenes from the pov of the Turks. It might be like the Active Time Events in FFIX or a completely different feature, but something to provide us with more of their perspectives (maybe even show clear demonstrations of Rufus controlling the world via fear) and to let the player know by the end that Tseng is alive.
Though this is the truth I can't say it without being a bit of a hypocrite, because I *am* interested in speculation about possible additions to the FFVII lore that would enhance the story and still fit within the style of that world. Just look at my insistence on involving a revenge plot in the original game's story; that is me taking freedom outside of canon right there.
I agree that Reno's loyalty to the Turks is a big part of his character. Which only makes his moment in "FINAL FANTASY VII Lateral Biography TURKS -The Kids Are Alright-" all the stranger.
In the helicopter, Tseng is looking down on Kadaj, standing over Evan. He tells Elena to fire a missile. Elena hesitates and asks Tseng if he is serious, but Tseng gives the same reply.
Reno and Rude, along with Doyle and Leslie, arrive at their destination. Elena tells them to get ready to attack. Reno sets up a machine gun, but when he finally sees that Evan is down there, he is not willing to follow Tseng’s orders to fire. After Rude says a ‘malfunction’ cut off the radio, Tseng tells Elena that they will attack alone. He tells Elena to preform the attack, but she instead insists on piloting the helicopter.
Reno disobeys Tseng for the sake of saving ONE GUY. Rude assists in the disobeying of the order and Elena doesn't listen to Tseng's order either. This blows my mind.
PS: I find it really hard to believe that Reno's not being sarcastic when he says, "Just like the Chief to use his last orders for good." (I assume he is referring to Veld there, not Tseng.) Veld is not a good man. But Reno is obviously being sincere, so I can only suppose he's in denial over what the Turk father-figure is really like. It's understandable.[/spoiler]
Context strongly indicates that they are speaking of Tseng. Also that line about good deeds was by Rude, not Reno.
“There is no point in thinking about what happens after the Meteor impacts. We will keep working and assume the planet will overcome this disaster,” said Tseng before he ordered his subordinates to help with rescue efforts while taking everyone else to shelters. The town was already feeling the effects of the Meteor in close proximity. Soon the powerful storms and earthquakes rocked Midgar, bringing down the buildings. The city of steel screamed as if it was caught in surprise.
“It’s just like the chief to use his last orders for good deeds,” muttered Rude.
You're right about Rude and Tseng, My bad. The comment makes much more sense with regard to Tseng. I mean, basically yes, the Compilation did retcon him (or develop his character) from a fairly generic villain into a more complex good-guy-who-does-bad-things character (I'm sure there's a name on TV Tropes for what he is), but it also gave him what IMHO are credible motives for his actions.
The difference between you and me is that you would like to see Avalanche expressing a desire for revenge against Reno personally; you would view that as an improvement, the filling in of a plot-hole. Whereas for me, the fact that they never blame him personally is an integral part of the game's message.
As regards relative numbers killed in the reactor bombings and the plate dropping respectively, I can only repeat what Reeve said, "What's a few to you is everything to those who died." Guilt is not a numbers game.
I really like reading this discussion. I don't have anything to add as you guys got this covered way better than me, I just want to comment on something:
Bad men doing bad things isn’t nearly so fascinating as decent men, maybe even good men, doing horrible things and the circumstances that led them there.
Though this is the truth I can't say it without being a bit of a hypocrite, because I *am* interested in speculation about possible additions to the FFVII lore that would enhance the story and still fit within the style of that world. Just look at my insistence on involving a revenge plot in the original game's story; that is me taking freedom outside of canon right there.
It's a shame you're not interested in fanfic because I find that they can be a useful tool for exploring
While some fanfic is fiction that uses an established canon's characters or setting to tell a non-canon story, some fanfic can be used as a way to explore canon characters and plots. Essentially, fanfiction can be a sort of essay in creative form.
I had a high school teacher who taught "The Catcher in the Rye" by making us write "which character are you" quizes and a fanfic about Holden "write a chapter that would fit into the original book". From these exercises we learned a lot about character and the book's style because it forced thought and close examination. I really appreciated the exercise and the teacher's creativity.
With FFVII the majority of my fics are more character explorations that work like essays. Rather than writing out how I think a character acted and why, I show through writing how a character acted and why. I do this mostly with Rufus, and although I try to tell an interesting story I'm also making an argument for my interpretation. It's an effective argument if the way I'm writing it makes sense to the readers while staying true to the canon.
A review from my latest fic update said:
" Rufus is so ruthlessly pragmatic, and you’ve managed the almost impossible – making the ‘rule by fear’ rhetoric of his in-game ‘inauguration’ speech into something believable that makes political sense. "
That was very flattering because that's essentially my goal, to interpret the canon and make sense of it. Yes, there's plot in the stories to, it's readable fiction, but it also sort of functions as an essay. Literary interpretation through literary work, or literally literary literary interpretation. The first fanfic for FFVII that I wrote was actually a sort of response to a fic Licorice had written. At the time I thought her view of the President seemed too sympathetic while Rufus seemed too unsympathetic, so I wrote a fic to show how I saw the characters. Like a rebuttal essay arguing a different interpretation.
Then the great thing about fanfic is writers read each others works, so it sort of builds a canon of analysis where you have various interpretations of characters and events. It can be fascinating to read. (I have a degree in creative writing, so I tend to nerd out over this kind of thing).
Of course, you won't agree with every interpretation.
A huge sub-genre has grown around the dropping of the plate and Reno's role therein. According to one plot-line popular with Reno's apologists, Shinra are holding people he loves hostage (it might be Rude, Tseng, Elena, Rufus, one or more of the BC Turks, or some OC daughter/ son/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/mother etc.... In this trope, he drops the plate because he fears that his loved ones will be killed if he doesn't follow orders. Another quite popular trope maintains that he was drugged, or that he was lied to.
I read a good fic recently in which he and Tseng staged the attack on the pillar in the hope od drawing Avalanche out to fight, thinking that if they could capture Avalanche, the plate drop would be cancelled. In this version, if I remember rightly, Shinra double-crossed the Turks by dropping the plate too soon.
Myself, I find the most compelling explanation is the simplest: Reno did it because it was his job. President Shinra had made up his mind that the plate was to be dropped, and if Reno hadn't done it, someone else would have.
Personally, I don't like the fics that give Reno an excuse that makes him the victim. Although my own interpretation gives him good reasons to follow orders, reasons I feel are supported by BC's canon, I feel it's more ambiguous than a litteral hostage situation. Disobeying orders could have doomed the department, but what maybe they could have escaped and gone into hiding, maybe refusing the orders even if it meant dying would have been better. I don't think what Reno did can or should be completely excused extenuating circumstances, although I do think the events did happen in light of other events and circumstances.
I also don't like the lied to or drugged trope. It's too easy to just sweep it under the rug. I like to see it taken on it's face and then made sense of in terms of the information canon provides.
Although the story where the Turks have their own game planned and were lied to about timing sounds interesting (may I have a link?). It fits within both the Turk's and Shinra's M.O. as seen in BC and it sounds like a good story. (where as I suppose a hostage situation, lies, or drugs just seem more exculpatory than anything. The hostage situation, lies and drugs would only happen as a way to make Reno blameless, while the Turks having their own agenda and Shinra undoing that seems like a plot unto itself).
I also like the 'simplest explanation' that Reno did it because it was his job, but again I would take that in light of the characterization and circumstances we get in BC.
This is turning into a very long answer. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see the need for a ret-con over the plate-drop. Reno's refusal, in the Wutai side-quest, to cut short his holiday drinking in order to hep the army capture Don Corneo, is actually more OOC for his CC/BC/ACC self than the plate-drop. One of his defining characteristics is his absolute loyalty to Shinra, which in his mind is probably synonymous with the Turks. When he is ordered to do something, he does it. I suppose the reason he told the squaddies in Wutai to take a hike is because they had no authority over him. If Tseng had phoned him with the order he'd have got right on it.
I agree that Reno's refusal in Wutai is more questionable than dropping the plate. It's hard to reconcile the loyal to the end, always follow ordeers Turks with
Reno: Elena. Don't misunderstood. A pro isn't someone who sacrifices himself for his job. That's just a fool.
I guess I adressed this to some extent in my previous post, but I think it merits
I'd also appreciate everyone else's take.
I agree with Licorice, that the reason he told the Squadies to take a hike was because he had no particular loyalty to the ones giving the order. I think BC shows that there's a fair amount of reason for the Turks to have a bit of animosity towards the general military. Towards the end of BC President Shinra fostered an US vs Them mentality between the departments (which is a very poor way to run a company in my opinion, departments working together and trusting each other would be much more productive than competition and dislike).
I also think that because of BC the Turks are less loyal to Shinra as a whole and more loyal to one another and to Rufus. Helping the Squadies do their job isn't the Turks assignment, so why go out of their way. I think maybe for Reno it's less about following orders because they're orders as following orders because of who is giving them. Tseng ordered Reno to drop the plate. Tseng got his orders from President Shinra, and for reasons I've discussed couldn't really afford to refuse. Random squadies don't warrant a lot of consideration in Reno's mind, and I don't think having gone through everything in BC he still feels a team spirit sort of loyalty to Shinra as a whole. Elena, who wasn't around for BC is much quicker to jump in, seeing it as her job because she's a part of Shinra.
In the end, it is Reno who deals with Don Corneo.
Reno: (stepping on Corneo's hands) All right, Corneo. This'll be over quick, so
listen up. Why do you think we went to all the trouble of teaming up with those
guys to get you...? 1. Because we were ready to die, 2. Because we were sure of
victory, or 3. Because we were clueless.
The Turks do do their job in the end. Although it seems they got involved only when Elena was in danger and after the Squadies had failed. So they did what they had to when it became necessary, even teaming up with AVALANCHE to do it.
So I guess Reno's refusal to help was more about not going out of his way for Squadies than unwillingness to do the job. He'd do it for Elena's sake, and maybe to some extent because by that point it needed to be done.
The difference between you and me is that you would like to see Avalanche expressing a desire for revenge against Reno personally; you would view that as an improvement, the filling in of a plot-hole. Whereas for me, the fact that they never blame him personally is an integral part of the game's message.
As regards relative numbers killed in the reactor bombings and the plate dropping respectively, I can only repeat what Reeve said, "What's a few to you is everything to those who died." Guilt is not a numbers game.
I'd like to add that Reeve is just as responsible for the plate being dropped as Reno, if not more responsibility. Reeve is on the Board and has actual power in the company, he could have done something when Shinra decided to drop the plate but instead he took the President up on his offer just look the other way.
Reno is just a soldier who carried out the orders he's not the one to blame for the strike. Everyone on the Board (except Rufus who was in Junon at the time and had no authority) is responsible for the plate being dropped. Those who supported the idea more so, but Reeve cannot escape blame and in the Case of Denzel is shown as accepting full culpability when Denzel questions him about he plate being dropped.
Reeve knows he's a guilty as anyone. However, AVALANCHE is filling to forgive Reeve. The Case of Beret also makes a point about guilt where after everything is said and done Beret sees himself as just as guilty as the Turks in terms of killing innocents.
I could see AVALANCHE holding a grudge over Bigs, Wedge and Jesse, but they were killed in combat. It's a war, people die on both sides, but when it's done and it's time to stop fighting I think people can and should let go of the grudges.
As for Tifa's friendly attitude towards Reno, by the end of the game the Turks and AVALANCHE are on decent terms because they'd teamed up to defeat Corneo and there's no point in still fighting.
After rescuing the girls from Corneo the Turks let AVALANCHE leave because they did help them, so they'll let in slide just this once.
Reno: Yes... this is Reno. Yes... Yes... I'll get on it right away?
When the party meets the Turks for the final time, it's clear the Turks don't wan to fight and they will just let you go.
Elena: Our orders were to seek you out and... ...Kill. Our company may be in
turmoil, but an order's an order. That's the will and spirit of the Turks!
Believe it!
Cloud: ......
Elena: What are you doing! Let's go!
Cloud: No, let's not go.
Elena: You showing pity!? Don't take the Turks for fools!
Reno: Wait, Elena.
Elena: Reno! You're not violating the order... are you!?
I agree with Fangu. One of the things I love about Battlestar Galactica is that even the 'good' characters frak up sometimes, actions and choices that grow out of who they are and the circumstances they find themselves in.
Robert McKee writes in the book 'Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting': "True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure—the greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character’s essential nature."
I also like the explanation that Reno was just doing his job. And although it may be because of inconsistent writing I don't have that much trouble reconciling that attitude with, "A pro isn't someone who sacrifices himself for his job. That's just a fool." I know that story is supposed to be more consistent than life, and characters more consistent than people, but in my experience quite often people make it up as they go and tend to be walking contradictions in themselves, mostly seemingly due to lack of self-awareness.
There are a lot of vast leaps in characterization throughout the Compilation. I'm of two minds about many of them. Most of me reasons that, well, the characters are at the focus of stories that put them through enormously stressful and traumatic pressure cookers, cascades of disasters the likes of which most people never witness, much less actively participate in. The people I meet who go through relatively smaller and more personal traumas do complete expressed-personality turnarounds on a dime, myself included.
What we know of the inner workings of these characters has to be worked out from what we see of them in the stories, and a lot of that is left up to us fans to decide for ourselves -- particularly with the Turks, which kind of adds to their appeal. But sometimes reconciling key moments of a character (like those that have been mentioned for Reno) leave me perplexed and challenge my suspension of disbelief, hinting that there's not some overall series 'bible' and each writer is making a lot up as they go.
But again, a lot of me then thinks, "Isn't that what we all do, for ourselves?"
Also: I LOVE ALL THIS DISCUSSION OF RENO. LOVE LOVE LOVE MOREPLZKTHXBAI.
Ahem. I love all the contributions to this discussion. They made a sleepless night far more Turkish and delightful.
I think Kassi said it: people who go trhough crises in their lies come out of it changed people, and not always in ways you might predict. The Turks and Rufus have gone through at least as many crises as Avalanche: the loss of their father-figure, betrayal by Rufus; the company turning on them; rescue by Rufus; the plate-drop and Tseng being forced at last to bring Aerith in; the realisation that, as Reno put it "we were the obliterators"; the apparent loss of Tseng; the apparent loss of Rufus; meteor, the collapse of the company, Geostigma.... Plenty of motivation there for more than one change of mind and heart.
When not characterised as a lovable goodball, Reno is often characterised as a sadistic killer, but I don't really think that fits his canon profile either. He likes a fair fight but I don't think he'd be a very good torturer. As far as I can remember from the Lateral Biography, Reno didn't rough up - was it Evan? - sufficiently for Elena's liking. He seems to have a very well-developed sense of fair play.
I imagine akll of them being a bit like Elena when they first joined the Turks: all eager beavers keen to show what they could do, all passionate for the company and full of "No mercy to the enemies of Shinra!!" Then they get the shine rubbed off them and become cynical and wise, but they continue to do what they do because of their loyalty to each other and Rufus, and because it's what they know and are good at. Turks is who they are.
I think people like to equate "doing evil" with being evil. I've noticed a lot of people tend to characterize Rufus as a power hungry sadist, and with the "rule by fear" thing I can see where people would get that idea. What I love about Case of Shinra's contradictory canon is that Rufus isn't anything as simple as a sadist. He seems to have great distast for sadists and people who would see his Turks as "dogs". I love that, because it's not what you'd expect so it makes him more complex as a person.
I see Rufus as someone who's definitely dangerous, not a nice person, but still capable of being principled and even likable (even Barret admitted that he had guts). I don't think I would like him as much if he was purely sympathetic either, because it's not as interesting.
I love that there are moments when you just hate Rufus (first half of Before Crisis you want to hit him, second half you want to kiss him).
Moments when you hate Rufus? What are you talking about I want to kiss him all teh tiem! *jk*
But I agree, Rufus is a complex villain. Although it's understandable why people don't like his sudden good guy-ish role in AC, I believe it showed him being more of a mystery rather than concluding that he has simply 'atoned for his sins'. Everything about his and the Turks' atonement is not as simple as it looks, for me at least.
I love the previous discussion. One of the reasons why this is one of my favorite threads here.
Btw just to share, I went to Little Tokyo in CA last Sunday and
Not that there's too much FF products in there but still.. stickers?? No action figures or Rufus cup whatsoever? (Although I can just take that 'Rufus' or the Shinra logos and stick them to my mugs...)
Btw just to share, I went to Little Tokyo in CA last Sunday and
Not that there's too much FF products in there but still.. stickers?? No action figures or Rufus cup whatsoever? (Although I can just take that 'Rufus' or the Shinra logos and stick them to my mugs...)
Now that I think about it it's not so bad after all, I was just a little disappointed when that's all that's Turk-related among the other FFVII stuff in there. I'm definitely gonna go back to buy that one and look harder for Shinra stuff.
Moments when you hate Rufus? What are you talking about I want to kiss him all teh tiem! *jk*
But I agree, Rufus is a complex villain. Although it's understandable why people don't like his sudden good guy-ish role in AC, I believe it showed him being more of a mystery rather than concluding that he has simply 'atoned for his sins'. Everything about his and the Turks' atonement is not as simple as it looks, for me at least.
I love the previous discussion. One of the reasons why this is one of my favorite threads here.
The thing that gets to me is a lot of the time people who see Rufus as a straight villain simply conflate him with The Shinra Company. I was reading a fic the other day where Yuffie's described Rufus as "the man who had nearly destroyed the Planet".
I think that's how a lot of people see him, as sort of an embodiment of Shinra, but really a lot of the bad things the company did weren't done by Rufus but by his father. Rufus spends the majority of FFVII trying to respond to Sephiroth.
He can a be a bastard, but most of the "sins" he'd be atoning for aren't his own, but inherited.
Btw just to share, I went to Little Tokyo in CA last Sunday and
Not that there's too much FF products in there but still.. stickers?? No action figures or Rufus cup whatsoever? (Although I can just take that 'Rufus' or the Shinra logos and stick them to my mugs...)
I want these things so so badly! I wonder if any of this is available online? Because I kind of really need the Rufus and Shinra logo ones. I'd totally put the Shinra sticker over the apple on my lap top cover.
On phone again sorry for bad typing. Re shinra stickers we could just print our own? Just need high res versions of the logos and a decent printer. Doubt those ones were official - too good for SE innit
I'm torn over whether or not I want to buy that towel. On the one hand it's not a need, but it could be useful for cosplay and I sort of just want it because I'm such Rufus fangirl.
Well my birthday is coming up in a month, maybe someone will think to buy it for me? I just have to drop the right hints, like posting a link to it on someone's facebook page saying, if you ever want to get me a present this would be a good start.
The thing that gets to me is a lot of the time people who see Rufus as a straight villain simply conflate him with The Shinra Company. I was reading a fic the other day where Yuffie's described Rufus as "the man who had nearly destroyed the Planet".
Well OG-wise he does give off the vibe (the embodiment of Shinra) imo. I saw him as nothing but a cliche villain back then but I think the game purposely wanted to portray him as such (along with the executives). But AC came out and proved there's definitely more to him than that and I'm more than happy with the direction they took his character to.
He can a be a bastard, but most of the "sins" he'd be atoning for aren't his own, but inherited.
Yeah, a lot of people seem to be forgetting about this. Now that it's brought up, I think there's really a lot of pressure on his part now that Shinra is not only gone but despised by the masses. And if he's nothing but a spoiled, selfish brat as others portray him to be (bad fanfics) then everything from AC onwards will turn out differently. And he'll probably even lose his Turks.
He's no angel, obviously, but I agree with Cam that it's a mistake to perceive him as a cut and dried villain. He makes a bad initial impression with his "rule by fear" speech, but politically his ideas are sound. As Machiavelli says, it is better for a prince to be feared than loved, because love is fickle and easily lost, whereas fear is more effective in discouraging people from rising against you. And Rufus is popular: the economy picks up after he becomes President; I think they called it 'the Rufus effect' in the game. His decision to execute Tifa and Barret on the grounds that "people will feel better if someone is punished" is also sound poltically, if not ethically - but then, Rufus is a politician, not a hero. He's a bit of a danger junkie, and quite brave. His plan to try to destroy Meteor using the rocket and the huge materia is actually a pretty good one. Moreover, if he hadn't moved the Sister Ray to Midgar and fired it at the Northern Crater, the party would never have been able to reach Sephoiroth.
We're seeing the game from Cloud's point of view, so of course Rufus comes across as a selfish unreasonable braggart. But looked at from Rufus' point of view, what we see are a bunch of terrorists and escaped lab experiments pursuing Sephiroth around the world in the deluded belief that they will be able to defeat him.
*jk*
I don't think it's out yet.
