The hate base on the internet

[Celes Chere]

That's no reason not to play a game.

I agree. I have made this mistake with SO many things, games, movies, books, etc. Everything deserves a chance, basing your thoughts on what the fans say isn't a good way to go... I know from experience! xD And yet, I still find myself doing it. *hits self in the head*

For instance, I refused to watch Moulin Rouge because of how obsessed everyone was over it for the longest time... finally I watched it, and it became one of my favorite movies. ;-; Unfortunately, everyone was already over it by then and I had no one to squee with. xD

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is a reason. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel that way.

I'll fix that for Force then. It's not a good or sensible reason.

Call it causality, reactivity, whatever you want - the behavior of others in regards to a subject will always have an affect on the people that witness their behavior. When you see some crazy Christian pastor wanting to burn the Koran, you don't suddenly feel the urge to convert to Christianity. It is offputting and makes you disinterested.

That's when you remember that just because some stupid kids who shot up their school made a comparison between what they were planning and "Doom" that those stupid kids didn't make "Doom," and, thus, it might be worth playing anyway.

 

[Joker]

It may not be good or sensible to you, him, or anyone else in the world but me. It doesn't really matter if other people get it, think they get it, or even begin to have the slightest understanding of it.

You know why?

I get it. That's all that matters.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

= |

 

[Joker]

Pretty much my reaction to being told it's valid.

You make it sound like I've never played the game. It makes me not want to play it AGAIN (for the sixth time).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, what am I supposed to do with that? "I don't care if it even really doesn't make sense."

And I realize you've played this game already, but you spoke of applying that reasoning in general.

 

[Joker]

That's because I do I don't play Fallout from watching hours and hours (and HOURS) of my friends playing it and getting motion sick from it and being generally uninterested (and playing a small bit of it myself). I don't care about Assassin's Creed for the same reason - watched my friend play some ACB last night, and it just didn't interest me (plus I think ignoring the laws of physics, i.e. "lol imma jump thirty stories and fall in a small, five foot high bale of hay and be completely unharmed lol" is stupid).

Negative experiences regarding a specific thing make me not want to experience the thing any further, including games, whether I've played them or not. Surprise! that's the way our minds process all information for which we form opinions.

And you'll note I said that I don't care if it makes sense to you (or anyone else) or not - it makes perfect sense to me. But then, I'm biased

 

[ForceStealer]

But watching someone play a game and deciding that you're not interested in playing for yourself is different than deciding the same due to the fact that someone else that happens to play the game is a tool. Especially in this case given that its a game you already know you enjoy.

 

[Joker]

No, it's not different, because the end result is the same, though the means are not.

 

[Celes Chere]

It may not be good or sensible to you, him, or anyone else in the world but me. It doesn't really matter if other people get it, think they get it, or even begin to have the slightest understanding of it.

You know why?

I get it. That's all that matters.

It's not that they don't get it. They're saying that being influenced by other people is not a valid reason to dislike something. And you're saying the opposite, that people will be influenced by others. I think that yeah, people are always going to be influenced by other people, but it's up to you to decide for yourself. Not following your own beliefs and basing your opinion on what others say, is a pretty bad idea. Like say it were a rumor about someone - Would you just believe the rumor, or find out for yourself before passing judgement? I think it's fair in any situation, to find out for yourself what the truth is whether it be about a game, or otherwise. You might end up agreeing with other people in the end, but at least you formed your own opinion instead of following the word of everyone else, and are giving whatever it is in the situation a chance.

 

[Joker]

You don't get it.

My like or dislike for the game does not change.

My desire to play it has been killed by the constant stream of retardation that is crap like the LTD, or the filling out of the Compilation, random revelations (see also: Dumbledore is gay).

I have made my decision. I love FFVII - it's my favorite game ever. But I don't care to play it anymore because the will and desire to do so no longer exist, by way of the actions and behaviors of others. Other people's opinions on things are completely irrelevant to me, because, contrary to what some people may think, I do not simply believe things because people say them, or because it's what I've been "spoon-fed" anything (and yes, I realize that is a pointed comment).

There is no "finding out the truth". There is no judgment being passed (I am not a judgmental person to begin with). There is no being unfair, or anything else.

If I had said "man, I hate FFVII because of other people", then yes, there would be some semblance of an actual point being made here. But I'm not, so there isn't.

Or, at least, not one that has anything to do with my opinion.

FFS I signed up and am one of the most active members on a FFVII forum. Does that not indicate anything?

(then again I avoid the FFVII sections like the plague...coincidentally [or not?] for the reasons I mentioned before)

 

[Tifabelle]

watched my friend play some ACB last night, and it just didn't interest me (plus I think ignoring the laws of physics, i.e. "lol imma jump thirty stories and fall in a small, five foot high bale of hay and be completely unharmed lol" is stupid).

If you don't care for video games that ignore real world applications, then you must not play too many video games



I understand what you're saying. Sometimes overexposure (like talking/reading about it on the internet) can take away the desire. It can also spark desire. Like every time someone says something about Advent Children, I get the urge to pop that sucker back in.

But it shouldn't matter if a bunch of morons run around saying shit about it. Of course, if you ignore them, then it makes no sense to say that your desire is waning because of them. And there are people that have good things to say about it. Does that make you want to play it?

 

[ForceStealer]

No, it's not different, because the end result is the same, though the means are not.

Um...yes it is. One you are making a decision based on the game itself, one you are basing that decision on the actions of others.

If any two things that have the same outcome are the same, then that has some pretty sweeping implications for...everything. There would be no debatable difference, for instance, between killing someone in self-defense and in cold blood.

And who said you cared about other people's opinions? The discussion has been your unwillingness to play the game because of the actions of others, not their opinions. Such as your original example of crazy Christians, and Tres' counter-example of the Columbine kids with Doom. That was what we contested.

 

[Celes Chere]

My desire to play it has been killed by the constant stream of retardation that is crap like the LTD, or the filling out of the Compilation, random revelations (see also: Dumbledore is gay).

Okay... so in the instance of something you already like being destroyed.... why would you let it? I see that you willingly peek into the LTD thread. If you don't like that aspect and it bothers you so much, why spend time reading it if it's only going to displease you? XD I mean you've clearly read enough to know how crazy the LTD is, why say "I don't want to play this game anymore because the fans are stupid". I love Resonance of Fate for instance, but not many people do. Apparently it's a shit game, but I am not just going to start believing that, lol. I love the game, and I love playing it, so why should what anyone else say matters? There's even an LTD for that game - I like participating in LTDs though so it's not as big of an annoyance for me, but the strange ideas from other fans aren't going to push me away from something that I already love. It's like being teased for liking Anime - I don't give a fuck. I like it, so what gives? XD

I have made my decision. I love FFVII - it's my favorite game ever. But I don't care to play it anymore because the will and desire to do so no longer exist, by way of the actions and behaviors of others.

Well, that's a pity. I really think if you enjoy the game, then you shouldn't let others influence you. But hey, that's your decision and well, to each their own and all that. ^^;

contrary to what some people may think, I do not simply believe things because people say them, or because it's what I've been "spoon-fed" anything (and yes, I realize that is a pointed comment).

Well, that's good... Em.. I don't think that you do, it's quite clear you are capable of speaking your mind honestly.

(then again I avoid the FFVII sections like the plague...coincidentally [or not?] for the reasons I mentioned before)

Really? I don't think that many people here on TLS are much like what you mentioned when it comes to FFVII, and only a handful of us participate in the LTD which is easily ignored.

 

[Joker]

If you don't care for video games that ignore real world applications, then you must not play too many video games

I understand what you're saying. Sometimes overexposure (like talking/reading about it on the internet) can take away the desire. It can also spark desire. Like every time someone says something about Advent Children, I get the urge to pop that sucker back in.

But it shouldn't matter if a bunch of morons run around saying shit about it. Of course, if you ignore them, then it makes no sense to say that your desire is waning because of them. And there are people that have good things to say about it. Does that make you want to play it?

It's not even ignoring RW applications - in this case, AC is based in Renaissance Italy, not outer space or featuring superhumans. No human being could survive a fall like that. It's silly, yes, but it's just very OTT and it bugs me a bit. But it's not the only reason why I don't care to play, mind.

But on the other hand, you're correct - the opinions of others are often enough to get me to try something or play something new. Example - Alan Wake. I was on the fence about it. I like survival horror-ish games, but I was very wary of AW because I had played RE5, and it pretty much killed my desire to play games like that But the story was fascinating to me, and two of my best friends played it and said they really enjoyed it, so that was the tipping point that got me to *buy* the game (as opposed to renting it or something). And I was glad I did, because it's awesome. But that doesn't always work - I use the opinions of others as a way to help me make decisions, rather than allow those opinions to make the decision for me. If I wasn't the least bit interested in AW, it wouldn't have matter how much my friends loved it. (see AC here - and yes, I hope you're reading this so you give it up already, shit)

Um...yes it is. One you are making a decision based on the game itself, one you are basing that decision on the actions of others.

If any two things that have the same outcome are the same, then that has some pretty sweeping implications for...everything. There would be no debatable difference, for instance, between killing someone in self-defense and in cold blood.

And who said you cared about other people's opinions? The discussion has been your unwillingness to play the game because of the actions of others, not their opinions. Such as your original example of crazy Christians, and Tres' counter-example of the Columbine kids with Doom. That was what we contested.

Sigh.

Go ask Aki about how one of her favorite games was ruined for her due to playing it while in a bad mood. Maybe then you'll understand.

You're not going to change my mind, or convince me that I'm wrong - in fact, you're strengthening my opinion with the dogged determination to tell me my feelings on the matter are wrong.


Tiff: It's called having an open mind. It means your opinion is never set in stone and can almost always be changed, and sometimes results in admitting that you're wrong

Example - Avatar. Sorry, but any willingness I had to watch it was killed at someone uttering the words "Master Poophead". Then again, that's not the FAN response, either.

But in the specific case of FFVII - let's say I'm playing, and something happens where Cloud says something that COULD SOMEHOW BE TAKEN for being pro-Aerith. Then I'll have Vendel's (or someone else's, maybe, idk) voice in my head saying AHAHA SEE IT'S PROOF OF CANON, or whatever. When you experience other people's opinions or actions in regards to something, it sticks (or, at least, it does for me). So here I was just enjoying the game, and suddenly all the retarded LTD bullshit is brought up in my mind and I'm ike "ugh, why am I playing this again?" Or the retranslation ridiculousness is brought up, or the hatred between opposing ships. It's not just the game that I think of as I play it - every experience I have ever had in regards to it (or, at least, the most memorable ones) are drudged up as well.

Then again, I'm not allowed to dislike FFIX, either, so I can't say I'm surprised at the way a "I'm not up FFVII's ass like so many other people are" response would be =/


Ed: Also, Doom was a terrible example, given that repeated, prolonged exposure to a negative element and having a negative reaction to it is extremely DISsimilar to a horrible tragedy that has only the barest of things to do with the actual game in question. "We were planning it to be like Doom" is very different from "I'm tired of all the retarded fandom bullshit like people issuing death threats and telling people they should burn".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You don't get it.

My like or dislike for the game does not change.

My desire to play it has been killed by the constant stream of retardation that is crap like the LTD, or the filling out of the Compilation, random revelations (see also: Dumbledore is gay).

I have made my decision. I love FFVII - it's my favorite game ever. But I don't care to play it anymore because the will and desire to do so no longer exist, by way of the actions and behaviors of others. Other people's opinions on things are completely irrelevant to me, because, contrary to what some people may think, I do not simply believe things because people say them, or because it's what I've been "spoon-fed" anything (and yes, I realize that is a pointed comment).

There is no "finding out the truth". There is no judgment being passed (I am not a judgmental person to begin with). There is no being unfair, or anything else.

If I had said "man, I hate FFVII because of other people", then yes, there would be some semblance of an actual point being made here. But I'm not, so there isn't.

Or, at least, not one that has anything to do with my opinion.

FFS I signed up and am one of the most active members on a FFVII forum. Does that not indicate anything?

(then again I avoid the FFVII sections like the plague...coincidentally [or not?] for the reasons I mentioned before)

I'm not even addressing what you do with FFVII. I don't care. You've already played it.

I'm more concerned with your overall worldview on this one. Because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Negative experiences regarding a specific thing make me not want to experience the thing any further, including games, whether I've played them or not.

You're going to pretty quickly find that guilt by cognitive association is going to ruin a lot of shit for you then.

Also, it's disingenuous to yourself to say a negative experience with something makes you "not want to experience the thing any further" when you're not even talking about an experience with the thing itself. You're talking about an experience with someone you find annoying, for which the thing itself is only peripherally related.

You'd have found that person annoying no matter what they were talking about.

Surprise! that's the way our minds process all information for which we form opinions.

Yeah, well, a lot of us draw distinctions between a groundbreaking game that should be judged on its own merits and the trenchcoat-clad idiots who blew away their classmates.

But to thine own self be true, I guess.

No, it's not different, because the end result is the same, though the means are not.

"I went to see 'Inception' because Christopher Nolan's past work has made me think. There's always been some angle that's thought-provoking. I also find him to be a highly competent director in general. The man really knows his way around a shot, and I especially appreciate his personal rule to do as many special effects as possible without the use of computer enhancement to keep the feeling of authenticity as alive as he can.

And, hey, it doesn't hurt that Leo, Juno, Ken Watanabe and Joseph Gordon-Levitt were in there as well. All of them amazing actors whose past work I've enjoyed immensely"

or

"I went to see 'Inception' because my brother hates Leo. And I hate my brother. So I went to see it so I could shove my movie ticket in his face. I mean, yeah, I think Leo's a fag too, but my brother's an even bigger faggot.

Movie sucked, by the way. Fucking Leo fagging up every scene."

You see the difference there, yes?

 

[ForceStealer]

You know Omega, I really wish you didn't feel the need to assume that this is a personal attack on you or your beliefs. People debated your reasoning, they were having a discussion. I didn't see any point in which you were told to agree with them. Even the line in which I purportedly dismissed your opinion as invalid I expounded on, clearly willing to discuss it, rather than just ending the post there.

It was a discussion as to your reasons that was actually, gasp, on topic. People thought it was poor reasoning, an opinion they are just as allowed to have, and they delivered points and examples to that end, but they did not command you to be "up FF7's ass."

But if you're going to assume we just have it in for you or are pleading with you to play FF7 again or something and can't actually discuss something, then I'll just drop it.

 

[Joker]

Hi i am condescension how are you

Who said it was personal? Tifabelle is at least presenting something valid to discuss.

Sorry, but telling me what my opinion amounts to and why isn't having a discussion.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

When you experience other people's opinions or actions in regards to something, it sticks (or, at least, it does for me). So here I was just enjoying the game, and suddenly all the retarded LTD bullshit is brought up in my mind and I'm ike "ugh, why am I playing this again?" Or the retranslation ridiculousness is brought up, or the hatred between opposing ships. It's not just the game that I think of as I play it - every experience I have ever had in regards to it (or, at least, the most memorable ones) are drudged up as well.

Not remembering people's opinions regarding games/books/movies etc. is a matter of choice. We can either decide to let their opinions get to us and wreck what was once enjoyable or decide that what they think/say/do has nothing to do with what we think of the game/book/movie.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're not going to change my mind, or convince me that I'm wrong - in fact, you're strengthening my opinion with the dogged determination to tell me my feelings on the matter are wrong.

I think that illustrates one of the problems we're having with understanding your way of thinking on this. The fact that you would even use the word "feelings" to describe how you approach such a situation.

I believe we're all saying that what is sensible is to separate knee-jerk feelings from blanketing everything remotely related to a negative situation with irrational disfavor, and to instead look at each component of the matter on its own terms.

Tiff: It's called having an open mind.

Oh dear.

Ed: Also, Doom was a terrible example, given that repeated, prolonged exposure to a negative element and having a negative reaction to it is extremely DISsimilar to a horrible tragedy that has only the barest of things to do with the actual game in question.

Reread your own words there, man. That's the point being made by everbody else.

"We were planning it to be like Doom" is very different from "I'm tired of all the retarded fandom bullshit like people issuing death threats and telling people they should burn".

Here's a reasonable reaction and its reasoning:

I don't participate in online discussion on forums devoted to Western comics anymore because I find the fans to be the literally most annoying fandom on the face of the planet. The sense of entitlement they feel ("How dare they not have [insert literally anything here] go the way I think it should have!"), their completionist mindset ("Even though I hate how this series has been going for the past five years and know that if everybody who felt this way would stop buying it a message would be made, I must keep buying every issue so as to not break my complete run"), and their never-ending complaints about how this character was drawn this issue, that character did/didn't speak that issue, the lighting on Warren Warthington III's wings was off, etc. -- all of it adds up to make the whole process of participating in such discussion decidedly unfun.

I still love me the fuck out of some comics, though.

 

[Joker]

I'm not even addressing what you do with FFVII. I don't care. You've already played it.

I'm more concerned with your overall worldview on this one. Because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

You do realize it also works in reverse, right? Positive interactions are capable of making you like things you didn't previously like. Example: I couldn't stand Mass Effect 2 when I bought it. Played it for several hours and didn't like it. My friend borrowed it, let me borrow his copy of ME1, and then I didn't bother to play it for a while. The constant stream of "ME is really awesome" (and, ofc, curiosity as to wtf a lot of it was about) caused me to decide to give it a shot.

And here we are.

Also, it's disingenuous to yourself to say a negative experience with something makes you "not want to experience the thing any further" when you're not even talking about an experience with the thing itself. You're talking about an experience with someone you find annoying, for which the thing itself is only peripherally related.

You'd have found that person annoying no matter what they were talking about.

It is multiple, frequent, reoccurring instances. Many, many times.

And no, I wouldn't. I find many people's attitudes or opinions about things to be very annoying, but it doesn't change my opinion of them. Example: I like you - you're pretty cool, tbh - but I have found that pretty much any conversation where we do not have the same opinion is bothersome and unenjoyable - and not because I don't like arguing and having a debate. But it does not color my opinion of you...it just makes me never want to talk politics or religion with you.

"I went to see 'Inception' because Christopher Nolan's past work has made me think. There's always been some angle that's thought-provoking. I also find him to be a highly competent director in general. The man really knows his way around a shot, and I especially appreciate his personal rule to do as many special effects as possible without the use of computer enhancement to keep the feeling of authenticity as alive as he can.

And, hey, it doesn't hurt that Leo, Juno, Ken Watanabe and Joseph Gordon-Levitt were in there as well. All of them amazing actors whose past work I've enjoyed immensely"

or

"I went to see 'Inception' because my brother hates Leo. And I hate my brother. So I went to see it so I could shove my movie ticket in his face. I mean, yeah, I think Leo's a fag too, but my brother's an even bigger faggot.

Movie sucked, by the way. Fucking Leo fagging up every scene."

You see the difference there, yes?

Yes. One is legitimate, and one is an over-the-top, patronizing oversimplification

In this case, something like "I get tired of hearing girls scream and swoon over Leo because then I can't hear what the fuck is going on and it ruins the immersion of the movie experience" would be somewhat more appropriate. XD

 

[looneymoon]

If fanwank seriously effects your enjoyment of the source material, then it's probably best to avoid fandom. Once it does, I think that's the point you start taking fandom too seriously. It's supposed to be a positive thing - all the negative people can gtfo as far as I'm concerned. That is, unless it's a hate fandom

Though I find it a little funny when people say FF7 is crazy. Sure there's a lot of vitriol, but it's pretty miniscule compared to a lot of others. Since I'm on an HP kick right now, but does anyone remember the shit that went down in Potter fandom in between book releases?

 

[Joker]

I think that illustrates one of the problems we're having with understanding your way of thinking on this. The fact that you would even use the word "feelings" to describe how you approach such a situation.

I believe we're all saying that what is sensible is to separate knee-jerk feelings from blanketing everything remotely related to a negative situation with irrational disfavor, and to instead look at each component of the matter on its own terms.

NOW we're having a legitimate discussion! Then again, it's a discussion about the way my mind works, so there's no use in pretending you'll ever get that xD

Simply put, my opinions of things are based on what I think of them. What I think can be influenced by others. Simple enough. However, anything I have experienced that relates to whatever the thing in question is will be associated with that, and will also have some influence.

In this case, FFVII. I love the game. I feel that it's overhyped. I don't get why people feel the need to be soooooooooooooooooo (and we all know I am not using nearly enough o's to draw that out) hostile and aggressive about it. I don't see why someone can't have an opinion and not be attacked for it. At what point does "agree to disagree" come into play? Then there's the people that take it extremely seriously and tl;dr every part of a conversation. This makes conversing about it an unwanted hassle, because then you have to watch every tiny thing you say so you don't have to have your choice of syntax picked apart just for saying "you know, I don't really like Vincent as a member of the battle party", resulting in the conversation ultimately being about Hojo's true feelings about Lucrecia and his son. And then I think "why does nobody come in to stop this bullshit, or even steer things toward safer waters so other people want to come in and participate?" And then, of course, no one does (or at least not until someone from the outside DOES come in and have some fun [mass effect lol]), and that irritates the shit out of me, because I hate double standards. And then I think "why is this guy trying to retranslate the game?", and then to "why is Mog asking these insane and ridiculously weird and obscure, though admittedly hilarious, questions?" (this one is a positive point).

In short, my TLS (and other) experiences in regards to FFVII come up in my mind when I think about playing the game. Those are not positive experiences. Rather than continue to stew on them while I play the game, because I know it will happen ("THAT FUCKING RIBBON DOESN'T SIGNIFY ANYTHING GODDAMMIT SHE JUST NEEDED TO TIE HER HAIR"), I simply avoid it, because any desire I had to fuck people up by Miming Limit Breaks or fighting WEAPON is gone. =/

Here's a reasonable reaction and its reasoning:

I don't participate in online discussion on forums devoted to Western comics anymore because I find the fans to be the literally most annoying fandom on the face of the planet. The sense of entitlement they feel ("How dare they not have [insert literally anything here] go the way I think it should have!"), their completionist mindset ("Even though I hate how this series has been going for the past five years and know that if everybody who felt this way would stop buying it a message would be made, I must keep buying every issue so as to not break my complete run"), and their never-ending complaints about how this character was drawn this issue, that character did/didn't speak that issue, the lighting on Warren Warthington III's wings was off, etc. -- all of it adds up to make the whole process of participating in such discussion decidedly unfun.

I still love me the fuck out of some comics, though.

Yes, but I love the fuck out of FFVII, too.

And I notice nobody bothers to dignify the other, and, indeed, equally large and important part of my reasoning: for the full experience, I have to play CC, BC, and DoC, and see ACC, the Case of's, etc. Fuck that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You do realize it also works in reverse, right? Positive interactions are capable of making you like things you didn't previously like.

I totally get it. I've had some extremely positive interactions related to "Twilight," but I still think it's shit.

And no, I wouldn't. I find many people's attitudes or opinions about things to be very annoying, but it doesn't change my opinion of them. Example: I like you - you're pretty cool, tbh - but I have found that pretty much any conversation where we do not have the same opinion is bothersome and unenjoyable - and not because I don't like arguing and having a debate. But it does not color my opinion of you...it just makes me never want to talk politics or religion with you.

My point was more that you'd have found them to be annoying no matter what they were acting that exact way over.

But, yeah, I get your point. Right now, you're making me want to pull my hair out (actually, yours), but I still like you.

Yes. One is legitimate, and one is an over-the-top, patronizing oversimplification

In this case, something like "I get tired of hearing girls scream and swoon over Leo because then I can't hear what the fuck is going on and it ruins the immersion of the movie experience" would be somewhat more appropriate. XD

Funny you should bring that up, actually. A friend of mine I've known for 13 years wouldn't watch anything with Leo in it because of the fangirl craze he had when "Titanic" came out.

No matter how many movies featuring Leo I recommended, dude just wouldn't watch 'em. Finally, he ended up seeing "The Departed" because of the other actors in it, and now he's watched "Titanic," "Shutter Island" and other Leo stuff because he sees how damn good of an actor he is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Though I find it a little funny when people say FF7 is crazy. Sure there's a lot of vitriol, but it's pretty miniscule compared to a lot of others. Since I'm on an HP kick right now, but does anyone remember the shit that went down in Potter fandom in between book releases?

You mean that shit eventually stopped?