The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

You say that like I'm some kind of serial thanker.

 

[Shademp]

Nope, I said it like a clever system to check if all is green.

Done and done. I can easily take other requests regarding the removal/adding of links in the frontpage menus. If the name "Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis" should be rewritten for the menu, let me know.

 

[BlankBeat]

Okay first of all if that is what "the Cleriths" are saying, why single out the Ultimanias. OBVIOUSLY our interpretation isn't neccesarily one hundred percent correct, the same is true of the original game. Something that the Cleriths obviously believe. I feel the Cleriths were saying rather more then that.

OK.

I highly, highly disagree. I feel it's pretty clear that Zack for instance had romantic feelings for Cissnei and you have to option of having Tidus express interest in Rikku and Lulu. LTD I feel is about who Cloud chooses.

OK...?

It's not.

I know.

But that's not the case.

I know.

I was making the point that *IF* FFVII were a movie, we would probably see Cloud telling Marlene he "hopes" Aerith likes him, the Clerith date, and the HA Highwind scene make the cut. Obviously that's debatable. I'm simply expressing my *opinion*.

That's debatable.

I know. That's why it's my opinion.

WHY? Cloud has strong feelings of guilt because Tifa got hurt when she was six years old almost completely of her own volition. You think it'd be surprising that he'd care about what happened to a girl that he might not have taken to in quite the same way if there wasn't an entirely new persona at the helm when he met her? It is irrelevant to the situation NOW, yes. Because he WAS controlled by Jenova, and that Cloud did bond with her, and she did die, and it was his fault.

...but RealCloud's feelings for Aerith in Advent Children are based on his interactions with her during disc 1. Obviously the interactions JenovaCloud had with Aerith resonated with RealCloud because of his behavior in AC.

If JenovaCloud's interactions with Aerith meant nothing to Cloud, why does RealCloud admit to thinking about Aerith a lot in Cosmo Canyon during disc 2?

When it comes to who'd the real Cloud actually enter a relationship with, yes it is relevant. We have no idea how the real Cloud would interact with a living Aerith.

Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. And part of the RealCloud was present during disc 1, so we *DO* have an idea of how RealCloud would interact with a living Aerith. We also have an idea based on Cloud and Aerith's close spiritual connection.

one part of the real Cloud does not equal the real Cloud. And Tifa's perception of the young Cloud also does not equal the real Cloud. Tifa and Cloud weren't close friends when they were little and she had no idea about why Cloud seemingly picked a lot of fights, the reason behind which had everything to d o with secrets being kept from her by her father and her other friends. Her perception was very scewed.

OK...?

Can I ask where this is being quoted from? Because Cloud and Aerith certainly don't see it the same way. IF, and let me stress IF, they go on a date at the Golden Saucer Aerith ASKS him if he had ever gone on a date before and none of the options you are given are reminding Aerith of their chat at the Sector 5 park about Zack.

EDIT: It's not being quoted. It's my own words.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BlankBeat and whoever else --

This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public)

 

[Lex]

Kind of wish you'd discussed this first Tres.

EDIT: Never mind, it's been disussed

 

[Dashell]

It has been a long time coming tbh, thanks so much Glenn

Hope this helps... you know until the next shit storm hits

 

[Shademp]

Great work, Tres. You are a man of immense journalistic integrity and with a great sense of diplomacy.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to do this to Glenn

Spoiler

Awwww, that is so sweet. It might just be that time of the month but, I teared up.

Thank you

 

[SirVival]

yeap, still too much nope in this thread.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd consider adding an addendum to the thread, but making edits to previous works without explicit notation of what was changed rubs me the wrong way.

I STILL maintain that the answer of who does Cloud love is at the very least partly answered. It is either "Tifa" or "Tifa and other women" because there's no reasonable doubt as to his love for Tifa any more. He does. He's in a relationship with her. That doesn't change his ability to love another woman... but even a love for another woman wouldn't affect his love for and relationship with Tifa. It is a distinct question with a distinct answer, and should be treated as such.

One of the things that pisses me off the most about this LTD is that it is treated as a zero sum game, an assumption which ignores how relationships and attraction works in the real world.

 

[BlankBeat]

He's in a relationship with her.

According to *YOU* he is in a relationship with Tifa. Unfortunately for you, there is nothing indisputable that proves Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. In-fact, your opinion flies in the face of direct statements by SE. All you have is circumstantial evidence that, when looked at on the surface, may suggest a romantic relationship (living together) -- but when looked at more closely (Cloud has his own room with his own bed, Tifa and Cloud are never shown to be intimate, Cloud visits Aerith's Church) doesn't mean what you claim it means.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= committed relationship. Just ask Nomura

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

First off I would like to thank BlankBeat, Alex, and any other Cleriths who responded to/received Tres's apology in a mature and gracious manner (ex BB and Alex in comments section of article)

Secondly I would like to thank both BlankBeat and Tres for the mature and civilized discussion they had going on in this thread recently.

Thirdly I would like to ask BlankBeat since Cloud loves both women as you said in the comments section, then why wouldn't he be in a relationship with her? I don't understand. This does not demean his relationship with Aerith in any way or prevent him with being with her either (if you believe she's with him in spirit) I think she is with him to an extent (in the same way our loved ones are still with us after they part) but after a while don't spirits in FFVII's world eventually have to return to the lifestream and be reborn? Another thing is doesn't it take/need/require a lot of energy/power for Aerith to manifest in the real world? Even if you think she can materialize and be with Cloud sometimes, it doesn't seem likely that she would be able to maintain that state of being twenty four/seven and/or everyday, plus there is still the spirits return to the lifestream thing anyway. Finally if Cloud was meeting Aerith, this time Tifa would know about it. Cloud learnt by the end of Advent Children that he doesn't need/have to hid things and Tifa said she would go with him next time. Tifa loves Aerith too. Aerith also loves and greatly respects Tifa as well.

 

[BlankBeat]

First off I would like to thank BlankBeat, Alex, and any other Cleriths who responded to/received Tres's apology in a mature and gracious manner (ex BB and Alex in comments section of article)

Secondly I would like to thank both BlankBeat and Tres for the mature and civilized discussion they had going on in this thread recently.

Thirdly I would like to ask BlankBeat since Cloud loves both women as you said in the comments section, then why wouldn't he be in a relationship with her? I don't understand. This does not demean his relationship with Aerith in any way or prevent him with being with her either (if you believe she's with him in spirit)

Thanks for your kind words.

I *DO* think Cloud and Tifa love each other. But does that mean they are in a committed romantic relationship? Not necessarily. Unfortunately, I think Cloud is a very complicated person and has a hard time being in a committed relationship. As Nojima points out, things didn't seem to go well between Cloud and Tifa and perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith (but we'll never know for sure).

Personally, I think Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue to complicate his relationship with Tifa. Yes, I know Cloud feels guilt for letting Aerith die. But his guilt is derived from the fact that he let someone he loved die. Even Tifa admits Aerith is complicating her relationship with Cloud:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.” ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Nojima also says he isn't even sure if Marlene and Denzel will be able to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their problems. So, yes, Cloud and Tifa have mutual love. But love isn't always enough to make a committed relationship work, especially with someone like Cloud.

As it stands, SE hasn't given us any scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally puts Cloud and Tifa in a committed relationship. No kiss, no embrace, no "I love you", no "will you be my girlfriend?" -- nothing. Until we see something of the sort, it is only an opinion that they are in a romantic relationship. I don't mind if you hold the opinion that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. All I ask is you don't speak for SE. SE has given no statements confirming that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. In-fact, direct statements from SE contradict the notion that Cloud and Tifa are in a committed relationship.

 

[Lord Kesharq]

First off just to make this clear i am a Clerith fan, always have been always will be, since the day i first played the game till the (7th) time iv finished it to date, Aerith and cloud had feelings for each other and that is very clear.

However at the end of the day Aerith died...which lead to him and Tifa. Now IF Aerith had not died, am willing to bet anything u like that they would have taken there realionship much further and things like the highwind scene with Tifa would never of happened (well maybe they would but it would have been Aerith and Cloud not the other way round) which would have at least saved us all from this massive LTD lol...

But yeah am 100% sure if Aerith had not died then u could have kissed this whole LTD out the window lol. (Or if a resserction of Aerith should ever happen..lol just saying that would help end this LTD hahaha).


(its 4.02 am here and am just randomly blahing sorry guys, also sorry for spelling mistakes..coffee!!)

 

[Roger]

(Cloud has his own room with his own bed,

Cloud has an office with a bunk that lacks a mattress or sheets and a door with a window in it. It has a tire as a nightstand. And even if that is the "bed" he sleeps in, Tifa sleeps somewhere close enough to at any point in the night idly ask him questions or watch him sleep until the sun goes up. That adds up to an intimate relationship for me even if he had after FFVII decided he was too damaged for a sexual one.

 

[BlankBeat]

First off just to make this clear i am a Clerith fan, always have been always will be, since the day i first played the game till the (7th) time iv finished it to date, Aerith and cloud had feelings for each other and that is very clear.

However at the end of the day Aerith died...which lead to him and Tifa. Now IF Aerith had not died, am willing to bet anything u like that they would have taken there realionship much further and things like the highwind scene with Tifa would never of happened (well maybe they would but it would have been Aerith and Cloud not the other way round) which would have at least saved us all from this massive LTD lol...

But yeah am 100% sure if Aerith had not died then u could have kissed this whole LTD out the window lol. (Or if a resserction of Aerith should ever happen..lol just saying that would help end this LTD hahaha).


(its 4.02 am here and am just randomly blahing sorry guys, also sorry for spelling mistakes..coffee!!)

I agree. If Aerith had lived, I firmly believe the HA Highwind scene wouldn't have happened and Cloud would have most certainly ended up with Aerith. Nojima hints at this, and if you look at Cloud and Aerith's interaction during disc 1, it's clear they had a great dynamic together. A dynamic Tifa admits to being jealous of. Cue JenovaCloud arguments in 3...2...1...

Bottom line: according to SE, Cloud and Aerith developed a "special bond" and Cloud admits to thinking about Aerith "a lot" during disc 2. Cloud's desire to re-connect with Aerith at the end of Final Fantasy VII tells us their connection is a truly remarkable one.

 

[BlankBeat]

Cloud has an office with a bunk that lacks a mattress or sheets and a door with a window in it.

I've heard all these counterarguments before...

The room lacks furnishing.
The bed doesn't look comfortable.
The bed lacks sheets.

All of the counterarguments are irrelevant because at the end of the day... IT. IS. A. PLACE. TO. SLEEP.

SE has shown us that Cloud has a place to sleep in a room that is his designed space. That's the point. There's no reason for SE to include this except to tell us that Cloud sleeps there. Alone.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I've heard all these counterarguments before...

The room lacks furnishing.
The bed doesn't look comfortable.
The bed lacks sheets.

All of the counterarguments are irrelevant because at the end of the day... IT. IS. A. PLACE. TO. SLEEP.

SE has shown us that Cloud has a place to sleep in a room that is his designed space. That's the point. There's no reason for SE to include this except to tell us that Cloud sleeps there. Alone.

A place Cloud could sleep is not necessarily the place Cloud does sleep. Especially in a family such as theirs where Barret/Cid/Vincent/Reeve/Yuufie/RedXIII are very capable of dropping by whenever. It actually looks a lot like my family's guest room that doubles as a storage room.

Furthermore, we have no information about where exactly he does sleep in 7th Heaven, all we know is that he lives there. So this piece of evidence doesn't support or not support who Could is paired with.

Although given that in OG he and Tifa were sleeping together right before they fight Sephiorth... exactly why would they change that now that they are living together in the same house?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree. If Aerith had lived, I firmly believe the HA Highwind scene wouldn't have happened and Cloud would have most certainly ended up with Aerith. Nojima hints at this ...

Is he really hinting at *that*, though? When he discusses the possibility of Cloud and Aerith, he still says that there could have been problems between them because of Aerith's responsibilities (presumably as Cetra Omega).

As you said, Cloud is a pretty damaged person in general, and he's going to have problems no matter who he tries to be with. I think that -- rather than the CloudxTifa dynamic specifically -- is what Nojima was emphasizing because of the last lines of that quote: "I also wanted to write about Cloud through Tifa. It certainly can be difficult to ascertain his feelings."

SE has shown us that Cloud has a place to sleep in a room that is his designed space. That's the point. There's no reason for SE to include this except to tell us that Cloud sleeps there. Alone.

There was a discussion here about this point once before (I think I quoted JayM with regard to it in the LTD article), and, as said then, from a directorial POV, I can see this point. The bed is framed within the shot in a deliberate way, whether to emphasize to us that Cloud's not been there in a while or just to display the existence of the bed.

Certainly it doesn't preclude him from sleeping elsewhere, but, yeah, I can see the argument that it was included for a reason, and that we're meant to ponder its significance because it's shown to us so pointedly.

I can even agree this itself is a reasonable take on things:

I *DO* think Cloud and Tifa love each other. But does that mean they are in a committed romantic relationship? Not necessarily. Unfortunately, I think Cloud is a very complicated person and has a hard time being in a committed relationship. As Nojima points out, things didn't seem to go well between Cloud and Tifa and perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith (but we'll never know for sure).

So with all that in mind, when you say you don't think they're in a committed relationship at the time of Advent Children, I do honestly see where you're coming from.

I think that on this particular point, the "committed" part is the key note.

If someone feels that Cloud and Tifa did their thing under the Highwind, had their optimistic exchange when the Lifestream stopped Meteor and set out with the intention of taking things further, but then just ... never quite figured out how to get around to it ... I can honestly see that point of view. The two of them are fucked up. They have difficulty communicating their feelings in general, and especially things at a romantic level.

The reason I say "committed" is the key note here is because I think one definitely couldn't say that they aren't in at least a tenuous relationship that they haven't figured out and solidified into something like, say, Wakka and Lulu's relationship.

If this is the interpretation one takes -- that they love one another and have wanted to give a real relationship a try, but both of them just kind of suck at it -- I think that's fair. I think the material can *easily* support that interpretation. Do I entirely agree with it? No, but I don't flatly disagree with it either.

In fact, I think that might be your words for what I mean when I say that they're a young couple in a fledgling relationship that is weighed down by communication problems, personal problems, all kinds of problems. It's there, but it's new and it's awkward and the people involved don't know what the hell they're doing. It's not a relationship like what "normal people" have by any means, but I would still use the word "relationship" because I think that's the word they would use -- and because it's easier that way.

 

[BlankBeat]

Especially in a family such as theirs where Barret/Cid/Vincent/Reeve/Yuufie/RedXIII are very capable of dropping by whenever. It actually looks a lot like my family's guest room that doubles as a storage room.

The idea that the bed is for guests is solely an attempt to try to explain away what should be common sense: Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room.

Do you really think it's more likely SE included the bed to show us they have a guest bed rather than showing us that Cloud has a place to sleep?

Furthermore, we have no information about where exactly he does sleep in 7th Heaven, all we know is that he lives there. So this piece of evidence doesn't support or not support who Could is paired with.

Right. I'm using common sense. Common sense tells us SE included a bed in Cloud's room to tell us he sleeps there.

Although given that in OG he and Tifa were sleeping together right before they fight Sephiorth... exactly why would they change that now that they are living together in the same house?

They slept together the night before they thought they were going to die. Didn't one of the books say Marlene *ALWAYS* slept with Tifa?

--------------------

Is he really hinting at *that*, though? When he discusses the possibility of Cloud and Aerith, he still says that there could have been problems between them because of Aerith's responsibilities (presumably as Cetra Omega).

No relationship is without problems. But when Nojima speaks of Cloud and Tifa's relationship not going well in unison with the suggestion that things might have gone well with Aerith, I think it hints that things would have gone better with Aerith.

I also feel my interpretation of Nojima's quote is supported by looking at Cloud and Aerith's dynamic. Their dynamic suggests Cloud and Aerith would have gotten along much better than AC suggests Cloud and Tifa have gotten along. As much as Aerith might have bugged you as a character, we are looking at this from Cloud's perspective. Cloud and Aerith had a fun, flirty dynamic together. Cloud seemed to really enjoy this spunky Flower Girl who wasn't shy or afraid to voice her opinion. He really dug her right from the get-go. And she was obviously someone who had a profound impact on him considering his actions in AC and what he says in Cosmo Canyon ("I think about Aerith a lot")

There was a discussion here about this point once before (I think I quoted JayM with regard to it in the LTD article), and, as said then, from a directorial POV, I can see this point. The bed is framed within the shot in a deliberate way, whether to emphasize to us that Cloud's not been there in a while or just to display the existence of the bed.

Certainly it doesn't preclude him from sleeping elsewhere, but, yeah, I can see the argument that it was included for a reason, and that we're meant to ponder its significance because it's shown to us so pointedly.

To me, there's no reason to include the bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there. But instead of sleeping in his bed, he's been visiting Aerith's Church.

So with all that in mind, when you say you don't think they're in a committed relationship at the time of Advent Children, I do honestly see where you're coming from.

I think that on this particular point, the "committed" part is the key note.

If someone feels that Cloud and Tifa did their thing under the Highwind, had their optimistic exchange when the Lifestream stopped Meteor and set out with the intention of taking things further, but then just ... never quite figured out how to get around to it ... I can honestly see that point of view. The two of them are fucked up. They have difficulty communicating their feelings in general, and especially things at a romantic level.

That's exactly what I think Nomura meant with his quote about having no clue if they are in a relationship. Sure, they have feelings for each other. But did these feelings turn into a committed romantic relationship? Not necessarily. There's absolutely no unequivocal proof of one when looking at AC, statements by SE, or the relationship charts.

One question I have: I know the relationship charts don't always list every couple as being romantically involved. But is there at least ONE OCCASION when at least one chart lists Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna as either having mutual favor arrows *OR* some sort of romantic description? I'm specifically referring to *MAIN* FF couples.

The reason I say "committed" is the key note here is because I think one definitely couldn't say that they aren't in at least a tenuous relationship that they haven't figured out and solidified into something like, say, Wakka and Lulu's relationship.

Isn't there a quote that says Cloud and Tifa are more than friends but less than lovers?

If this is the interpretation one takes -- that they love one another and have wanted to give a real relationship a try, but both of them just kind of suck at it -- I think that's fair. I think the material can *easily* support that interpretation. Do I entirely agree with it? No, but I don't flatly disagree with it either.

That's pretty much what I think. Cloud and Tifa have feelings for each other, but a committed relationship between them never developed or lasted. Until we see a kiss, or a direct statement from SE, it is simply speculation that they are in a committed romantic relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

One question I have: I know the relationship charts don't always list every couple as being romantically involved. But is there at least ONE OCCASION when at least one chart lists Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna as either having mutual favor arrows *OR* some sort of romantic description? I'm specifically referring to *MAIN* FF couples.

Yes.

Isn't there a quote that says Cloud and Tifa are more than friends but less than lovers?

No, that was a magazine speculating back in 2004 (it was phrased with a question mark).

 

[BlankBeat]

Yes.

I really think that says something.

The fact that all other main FF couples have either a romantic description or mutual favor arrows on at least one occasion, but Cloud and Tifa do not, really says something to me.

If SE wanted to unequivocally tell us Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, I feel as though they would done so in at least one of the relationship charts (like they did for all other main FF couples)

 

[Dashell]

They didnt do that for other ff couples tho, like Wakka and Lulu says childhood friends

Iirc very few of romantic couple's are referred to as such on the relationship charts.


As for the bed, Id be willing to bet that it was put there wit very little thought whatsoever, and now they're like, "they're STILL arguing about that damn bed? Holy shit these people are weird!"

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thing is/truth is I'm not sure anybody speaks for SE these days, not even SE/SE speaking for SE since in a lot of cases they don't even seem to know what the heck they are doing anymore themselves. Like with the new FFX series audio drama/novella. Nothing is sacred anymore

Thank you for your reply BlankBeat Once I wake up properly I will give a reaction to the most recent posts/discussion in the thread ^-^

 

[Roger]

Cue JenovaCloud arguments in 3...2...1...

Well now that you acknowledge that your ideas undermine the main plot of the game to prop up a optional subplot, I won't have to.

Do you really think it's more likely SE included the bed to show us they have a guest bed rather than showing us that Cloud has a place to sleep?

Why would they need to show us Cloud has a place to sleep?? We don't see where Tifa sleeps in the movie. We don't see the bed Barret used to sleep in. We just know they're there. Because they lived or used to live there. THAT'S common sense.

No relationship is without problems. But when Nojima speaks of Cloud and Tifa's relationship not going well in unison with the suggestion that things might have gone well with Aerith, I think it hints that things would have gone better with Aerith.

No it hints it MIGHT have gone better with Aerith. Because that's literally what he says.

And she was obviously someone who had a profound impact on him considering his actions in AC and what he says in Cosmo Canyon ("I think about Aerith a lot")

OFF COURSE SHE HAD A PROFOUND EFFECT ON HIM. We see that he thinks a great deal about Zack in AC too. He visits his gravemarker at the start of the movie, during the movie and then after the movie after which he goes through painstaking efforts to restore to pristine conditions so he can slit Zack's phallic symbol deep in Aerith's inner sanctum. When Sephiroth asks what he cherishes most it promps Cloud to summon Zack for a conversation. This is two years after Zack's death.

But when Cloud, days after they lost their valued teammember through his actions, and when the world is in peril and the last time she and Cloud conversed and she seemed to have a plan and indeed Coud following these plans was where the conversation was indeed going to end, says "I think about Aerith a lot", you take that as a proof of love?

To me, there's no reason to include the bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there. But instead of sleeping in his bed, he's been visiting Aerith's Church.

Where he lived in spectacular luxury compared to his dusty office (which is quite a feat since like Aerith's it has a hole in the roof)

If SE wanted to unequivocally tell us Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, I feel as though they would done so in at least one of the relationship charts (like they did for all other main FF couples)

Oh, I agree. SE doesn't want to tell us whether Cloud is in a relationship. But it's because the game featured Cloud with multiple options concerning his lovelife and they wanted to reflect that. Not because SE are secretly all diehard Cleriths at heart.