The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Skan]

It's remarkable to me that people have not tired of beating this horse. The lower the stakes, the more vicious the arguments. Truly.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Since Cloud also says Aerith was smiling till the end, and there is other things from the official sources about him thinking about/admiring her smile/eyes, etc then no I don't think it's unreasonable that his feelings for Aerith are in part why he thinks of her later. Especially since Cosmo Canyon is where Cloud also has his slip up with the "But I'm .. we're here for you right" Also it says he thinks about her a lot, sure he thought about her plan, etc, but because since it's a lot I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he just thought about her for her

Sure, I mean why not? The thing with the sex. Extreme conditions then, with the world in peril, and falling down about ears, etc. Things like that happen then, and on the other hand thinking too hard about all the people we've ever cared about too.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I find the current climate of amicable "sure why not" in here disgusting. This is not the real LTD. You're all dead to me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sure, why not? =P

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

They didnt do that for other ff couples tho, like Wakka and Lulu says childhood friends

Don't forget Vaan and Penelo's "like brother and sister" or something along those lines.

And I have to say, I like how much more civil and reasonable BlankBeat has gotten. I almost don't believe it. It's nice to see people change for the better.

 

[Strangelove]

oh god we're back on cloud's bed

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

oh god we're back on cloud's bed

::pats spot beside me::

 

[BlankBeat]

They didnt do that for other ff couples tho, like Wakka and Lulu says childhood friends

Iirc very few of romantic couple's are referred to as such on the relationship charts.

I was specifically referring to main FF couples (Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc.). Obviously SE gives more attention to the main FF couples, so I was trying to compare apples to apples.

Bottom line: SE has told us WITHOUT ANY SHRED OF DOUBT that those couples are official on at least one occasion. The same can't be said of Cloud x Tifa.

As for the bed, Id be willing to bet that it was put there wit very little thought whatsoever, and now they're like, "they're STILL arguing about that damn bed? Holy shit these people are weird!"

We will never know if they gave it thought or not. That's purely speculation. But what I know is that Cloud has a place to sleep in his room. Common sense suggests he sleeps there.

--------------------

Well now that you acknowledge that your ideas undermine the main plot of the game to prop up a optional subplot, I won't have to.

I was being sarcastic. You've yet to respond to my points about why the JenovaCloud argument is irrelevant:

Point #1: RealCloud's feelings for Aerith in Advent Children are based on his interactions with her during disc 1. Obviously the interactions JenovaCloud had with Aerith resonated with RealCloud because of his behavior in AC.

Point #2: If JenovaCloud's interactions with Aerith meant nothing to Cloud, why does RealCloud admit to thinking about Aerith a lot in Cosmo Canyon during disc 2?

Point #3: SE says Cloud and Aerith developed a "special bond" during disc 1.

Why would they need to show us Cloud has a place to sleep?? We don't see where Tifa sleeps in the movie. We don't see the bed Barret used to sleep in. We just know they're there. Because they lived or used to live there. THAT'S common sense.

Don't we assume that the children sleep in the beds found in their room?

No it hints it MIGHT have gone better with Aerith. Because that's literally what he says.

Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. That hints to me that things would have gone better with Aerith given the juxtaposition.

OFF COURSE SHE HAD A PROFOUND EFFECT ON HIM. We see that he thinks a great deal about Zack in AC too. He visits his gravemarker at the start of the movie, during the movie and then after the movie after which he goes through painstaking efforts to restore to pristine conditions so he can slit Zack's phallic symbol deep in Aerith's inner sanctum. When Sephiroth asks what he cherishes most it promps Cloud to summon Zack for a conversation. This is two years after Zack's death.

But when Cloud, days after they lost their valued teammember through his actions, and when the world is in peril and the last time she and Cloud conversed and she seemed to have a plan and indeed Coud following these plans was where the conversation was indeed going to end, says "I think about Aerith a lot", you take that as a proof of love?

No. It's proof that the JenovaCloud argument is irrelevant.

Oh, I agree. SE doesn't want to tell us whether Cloud is in a relationship. But it's because the game featured Cloud with multiple options concerning his lovelife and they wanted to reflect that. Not because SE are secretly all diehard Cleriths at heart.

I'm glad you agree that SE doesn't want to tell us whether Cloud is in a relationship.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

So are you saying I've been ded to you for years GLD?

I've always been this way

Spoiler

http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSCN0418.jpg

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. That hints to me that things would have gone better with Aerith given the juxtaposition.

But it's not even that things are always going bad with Tifa. It's just for that the portion we see of ACC that things have hit a rough spot, which given what Cloud was going though, would probably have been a rough spot for any relationship no matter who Cloud was in a relationship with. Not to mention the whole "my best friend was your boyfriend" thing0 and that Aerith even admits on the date that one of the reasons that she was attracted to Cloud in the first place was because he reminded her of Zack. There's no way that wouldn't affect the Aerith/
Cloud relationship if Aerith had lived.

I'm glad you agree that SE doesn't want to tell us whether Cloud is in a relationship.

SE tells us that Cloud/Tifa are definitely in a relationship where the two of them live in the same house and run their business from the same place. And that they've been doing that for the two years since the OG ended. And that until Cloud got geostigma, the only reason why he left 7th Heaven was for deliveries. Presumably, Tifa knows that's why he's usually gone as she isn't depicted in CoT as stressing out about whether Cloud is gong to be coming home or not. It's only when she doesn't know why he left and Cloud stops answering her calls that she bothers going looking for him. SE has depicted them as having a close relationship, the only thing left up in the air is if it's romantic. Given how romance is often depicted in shonen manga/anime (way less "romantic" then Weastern works portray it), there's enough evidence that their relationship is romantic, but that the romance itself isn't that important to the scheme of the overall plot.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

She says it is the reason she was initially attracted to him physically basically. Nonetheless she does say that he's, that things are different now. There are also plenty of Ultimania quotes, etc about Aerith seeing through Cloud's facade/w-e but nonetheless being fond of him anyway, having affection for, being fond of Cloud because of Cloud, for his sake, him for him

 

[Strangelove]

::pats spot beside me::

that bed doesn't have nowhere near the thread count required to get me into it

isn't there a fucking tyre on it or something

i don't know what you've heard about me but i don't do it on no tyres

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Now, now. Don't give Glenn any ideas

Spoiler

 

[BlankBeat]

But it's not even that things are always going bad with Tifa. It's just for that the portion we see of ACC that things have hit a rough spot, which given what Cloud was going though, would probably have been a rough spot for any relationship no matter who Cloud was in a relationship with. Not to mention the whole "my best friend was your boyfriend" thing0 and that Aerith even admits on the date that one of the reasons that she was attracted to Cloud in the first place was because he reminded her of Zack. There's no way that wouldn't affect the Aerith/
Cloud relationship if Aerith had lived.

SE has already told us Aerith loved Cloud "much more" than Zack. SE has also told us that Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack, but that she grew to like Cloud for Cloud.

Nojima also says he's unsure if Denzel and Marlene will be able to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their problems.

SE tells us that Cloud/Tifa are definitely in a relationship where the two of them live in the same house and run their business from the same place.

That is circumstantial evidence. Living together and running a business from the same place is not proof of a committed romantic relationship. When we look at where they are living, it is a place AVALANCHE has always resided. Barret also helped form this family and Cloud has his own room with a bed in it.

It sounds nice to say, "they are living together so they are in a relationship" -- but that's not really proof of anything. In-fact, it proves absolutely nothing.

And that they've been doing that for the two years since the OG ended.

So...? Despite living together, Nomura has "no clue" if they are in a romantic relationship.

And that until Cloud got geostigma, the only reason why he left 7th Heaven was for deliveries.

Didn't Cloud find Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church? Wasn't that *BEFORE* getting geostigma...?

SE has depicted them as having a close relationship, the only thing left up in the air is if it's romantic. Given how romance is often depicted in shonen manga/anime (way less "romantic" then Weastern works portray it), there's enough evidence that their relationship is romantic, but that the romance itself isn't that important to the scheme of the overall plot.

I think SE has depicted them having a contentious relationship that is hardly evidence of a romantic relationship.

 

[Ryushikaze]

BlankBeat... CLOUD AND TIFA STARTED A FAMILY TOGETHER. THEY CONSIDER EACH OTHER THE MOTHER AND FATHER OF THE CHILD THEY ADOPTED.

They are IN a relationship. And Glenn, it looks comitted, given it's survived two near-fatal diseases, and two world crises since it's inception. You can argue how passionate they are about each other, but the two are fucking committed to their family and keeping it a family.

And we know they love each other.

Look at the big fucking picture. The way BB and other pinkers examine this, you miss the forest for the trees.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You know I'm not disputing that they're in a committed relationship, Tim. It's how ''committed rationship" is being defined that seems to differ, and, yeah, that probably isn't the word BlankBeat is looking for. I don't think he doubts their commitment to one another or the family -- just how defined and squared off their dynamic with one another is.

While I certainly feel that they at least worked that bit out somewhere along the line, it's not an invalid reading of the characters to feel that they're awkwaed enough, damaged enough and self-flagellating enough to have maybe still been ironing out their roles as they were forming, such that they still hadn't quite said "So this is how it is: etc." by the time Cloud's geostigma hit.

Absolutely I think the material in Episode Tifa paints a picture of them getting things established early on. However, it's still an interesting and supportable reading of the characters that they fumbled their way through all this until lo and behold, "Hey, we're living as a family even though we're both too fucking thick and stunted to come out and say that's what it is -- oh shit, look, black pus."

Do I think that's what happened? No, but I think you can legitimately see it that way, and I actually kind of think the idea is cute.

 

[Master Bates]

oh god we're back on cloud's bed

::pats spot beside me::

that bed doesn't have nowhere near the thread count required to get me into it

isn't there a fucking tyre on it or something

i don't know what you've heard about me but i don't do it on no tyres

I want the continuation for this [non]conflict.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It leads to a tire swing.

 

[Strangelove]

i read that as sling and was all, i like where this is going

then i saw 'swing' and went 'oh'

you better step up your game, matey

 

[Roger]

SE has already told us Aerith loved Cloud "much more" than Zack. SE has also told us that Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack, but that she grew to like Cloud for Cloud.

Which is why the fact that shenever met the real Cloud is relevant. Yes, the mindcontrolled Cloud was a part of him but they do act quite different. (and there is more to Cloud then coolness before you bring that up again)

Nojima also says he's unsure if Denzel and Marlene will be able to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their problems.

Just like he doesn't guarantee Aerith and Cloud would definitely do better. (and the fact that he brings up Aerith as an example rather then Zack does tell me we are talking about the certain type of relationship)

That is circumstantial evidence. Living together and running a business from the same place is not proof of a committed romantic relationship. When we look at where they are living, it is a place AVALANCHE has always resided. Barret also helped form this family and Cloud has his own room with a bed in it.

AVALANCHE=/=Cloud. Marlene, Barret and Tifa lived Seventh Heaven for years. Cloud spent all of one night there. Cloud was part of AVALANCHE only a few days longer then Red XIII, he made many more stops at Cosmo Canyon then Seventh Heaven. Yet there was absolutely no question which people he'd go with.

Didn't Cloud find Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church? Wasn't that *BEFORE* getting geostigma...?

Yeah, he visited the place before being afflicted by Geostigma. He didn't start living there because of it. The movie has Marlene outright say his failure to help Denzel is why he left.

I think SE has depicted them having a contentious relationship that is hardly evidence of a romantic relationship.

I do. If they were just friends, them having disagreements wouldn't matter this much. There's a reason why, despite being part of this family's parental unit, Barret's thoughts concerning how Cloud is coping just aren't quite as focused on.

 

[Shadowfox]

Marlene, Barret and Tifa lived Seventh Heaven for years. Cloud spent all of one night there. Cloud was part of AVALANCHE only a few days longer then Red XIII, he made many more stops at Cosmo Canyon then Seventh Heaven.

I thought Cloud had been staying with Tifa for, like, a couple of months before the game had even started.

 

[BlankBeat]

Look at the big fucking picture. The way BB and other pinkers examine this, you miss the forest for the trees.

You act as though Cloud and Tifa decided to form a family together, had two children, and moved to a house with a white picket fence. If that happened, it *WOULD* be an indication of a romantic relationship. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret decided to form a family together and re-establish Seventh Heaven. Barret helped form this family and helped with the re-building of Seventh Heaven. After Barret helped form this family and re-build Seventh Heaven, he went away.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile

The three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene] began living as a family because Barret left. If Barren't hadn't left, all four of them would have been living together as a family.

Stop making it seem as though Cloud and Tifa got married, found the perfect little house in suburbia, and then adopted children. As much as you wish that happened... it didn't

If Nomura has "no clue" if they are in a relationship, and if SE decided to provide Cloud a place to sleep in his room, there is no way you can be certain they are in a romantic relationship.

--------------------

Which is why the fact that shenever met the real Cloud is relevant. Yes, the mindcontrolled Cloud was a part of him but they do act quite different. (and there is more to Cloud then coolness before you bring that up again)

OK. Then it's relevant? Bottom line: SE tells us Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack and that although she initially liked Cloud because of Zack, she eventually grew to like Cloud for Cloud.

Just like he doesn't guarantee Aerith and Cloud would definitely do better. (and the fact that he brings up Aerith as an example rather then Zack does tell me we are talking about the certain type of relationship)

What I'm saying is that Nojima speaks of things not going well between Cloud and Tifa and questions if even Marlene and Denzel will be able to help them sort through their issues. There's no proof they ever worked through their issues, therefore leaving it uncertain if they are in a romantic relationship.

And yes, I know Nojima doesn't guarantee things would have gone better with Aerith. But as I've stated previously, this is why I personally think things would have gone better with Aerith:

1. Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. That hints to me that things would have gone better with Aerith given the juxtaposition.

2. Just look at Cloud and Aerith's dynamic together. To me, Cloud and Aerith's dynamic suggests things would have gone better between them.

Yeah, he visited the place before being afflicted by Geostigma. He didn't start living there because of it. The movie has Marlene outright say his failure to help Denzel is why he left.

My point is that Cloud visited Aerith's Church before having geostigma. Why did he do so?

--------------------

It's such common knowledge that Cloud had feelings for Aerith, people even make jokes about it.

--------------------

"First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same." ~Nojima

So, obviously the issues between Cloud and Tifa are not solely a result of Geostigma or Sephiroth. We can also see that when observing CoT and FFVII.

(And yes, I know he uses the word "might" -- but come on, let's just be honest here.)

Bottom line: what is the proof Cloud and Tifa sorted through their problems? To me, it appears as though they haven't and aren't in a committed relationship. Any evidence that they've sorted through their problems...?

 

[Skan]

I'm rather confused about the end goal to all this debate. I mean, low stakes aside, what is the stake anyways, and why does it actually matter to be able to say "Pairing A is canon" and "Pairing B is not canon"? Surely it's one's overall interpretation of the characters that is more important, and that interpretation is not necessarily contingent and doesn't have to be contingent on the canonicity of a pairing.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

"We interrupt this current program with .."

News at 10', news at 10' -

The passages in the Ultimanias were not made up by random members of Studio BentStuff and/or people who never played VII - I would ask people to pay close attention to the "Supervision" and "Editing/Editorial" sections and things where Square Enix and specific staff members like Nomura and Nojima are indeed mentioned. This means they were supervising what was going on, and had editorial liberties for editing anything they didn't like or work on, in fact it makes more sense that they were working together with the other writers too. The supervising staff for these things were Nomura and Kitase, etc.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'm rather confused about the end goal to all this debate. I mean, low stakes aside, what is the stake anyways, and why does it actually matter to be able to say "Pairing A is canon" and "Pairing B is not canon"? Surely it's one's overall interpretation of the characters that is more important, and that interpretation is not necessarily contingent and doesn't have to be contingent on the canonicity of a pairing.

People who do not have a stake in pairing varrious couples have been wondering this since the beginning of fandoms... That said, for certain series (where the romance is central to the plot), who gets paired with who does legitimatly effect how the rest of the series is viewed. FFVII isn't one of those as the romance isn't central to the plot.