The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#52
There's multiple good reasons we have excised the thread to its own subforum.

Also, Unnamed Prototype Character x Nicholos the Needle is the OTP of FFVII, because they were the first two characters made period.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
#53
Vendel was banned from the LTD for the same reason he was banned from the politics section (a section where his banning certainly does not make us look unbiased): a lengthy and consistent history of flaming and trolling that easily dwarfs that of every other member on the forum with the sole exception of Scott Laird, who is unlikely ever to be unbanned.

well shucks :/ i never realized that and dont bash me for it i only joined early this year im sure hes been given lots of chances too. if only.....well nevermind. i just hope he doesnt screw up his last chance!

************************
Squall/Hawkeye i have finally finished your article and have now fallen into C.D (Cloud Depression). its great for the wonderful page filled proofs of clouds feelings for both women but to know your awesomeness articles wont be in the LTD anymore is a kind of a tear jerker. but since im such a freak for you i purposefully skipped some parts so i could re-read it again with new information so ha :D

but anyway thanks so much. you took a deep breath and used up hours only you know to once again dig in this war-den. and im so glad you did. i cant find any fault, seriously in any of them, no matter how hard i look. so you left, but you left with a tremendous cloti outstanding bang.


even tails and amy are sad for your leaving.

-------------------------
*second add-on on article*

i readily believe that cloud was attracted to aerith. its not that i havent believed it, but it just came into view for me,and it only makes sense. but a magnanimous amount was already given to tifa and he hadnt let go of that feeling. besides cloud is a man and he has normal man feelings (no matter how stupid he acts) and it would be pretty unrealistic for him not to be attracted to a girl that is...well - attractive.

i mean look at zack for instance. hes a great example of a "wavering" hero in a love triangle, in a lukewarm sense. (granted, he fought for girls' attention than the other way around but still.) he fastalked (is that even a word?) aerith into a date, but that did not take away his ability and freedom of hitting on other girls by any means. even when he spent more and more time with aerith he still was trying to persuade cessnei out, and i clearly remember him asking her out to dinner when he was at points where they could be considered intimate with aerith; in fact the two could have even been boy/girlfriend at that point.

isnt there even a very quote on what im talking about? im almost sure of it.

so yea, cessnei and him became good friends and zack didnt mind that after all, but his heart was always for aerith, no matter how much flirting was done with cessnei, at least this is what i believe.

attracted to cessnei? yes, maybe even a bit more than we thought. romantically maybe even deeply intimate? krypton no. i even think while it was clear she "wanted" to be friends (the game led me to think she did like him, but (a shied off or (b didnt want any ties/ relationships that might conflict with the turks or (c saw he was better off with aerith since his dealings with her were well known in shin-ra) he was still attracted to her nonetheless.

but yea. there was a chance for cessack/zacessnei (see how i added the 'c' from both of their names in the combo? no need to applaud, i just got talent like that) just as much as clerith. but there wasnt. and thats what matters in my book.

heck, look at the Cincinnati Kid. Another classic love triangle. you wouldnt really - from a technical point- call the women fighting for his love, because he had Christian as a GF, and the blonde dummy didnt even know that the slut (her friend BTW) wanted him too. anyway he was attracted to her, heck he even slept with her once, but in the end his true heart was for Christian, the girl he truly loved.

so even if aerith and cloud kissed and screwed each other in hidden scenes we just need to listen to the cleriths about, the lifestream still comes. just like how Kid comes back to Christian. and one thing is certain; there is absolutely no game mechanics applied. so people can complain about the HW scene (i could care less about it in comparison of the LS scene) all day, but they cant say crap about the lifestream. HP is gone. MP is gone. the ability of choosing what to say is taken from you. the goshdarned affection rating is vanished from sight. and no matter what romance - whether lukewarm or flaming passionate - he had with aerith mattered anymore. because the BOTH of them - at the same time FPS - called for each other. i cant pinpoint on this enough. ok so the love triangle doesnt have to end because of aerith's death. but the thing is that we didnt end it. S/E didnt even end it with books. cloud himself ended it. he shattered anymore clerith hopes. he made his own wavering stop. you cant do shizz about the scene save for guiding tifa around. if he called for aerith it would have ended it, too. cloud calling for aerith wouldnt make it any different. we wouldnt argue against it because guess what? THERE ISN'T ANYTHING TO ARGUE. if cloud called for aerith at the core of his heart what more could we say? clerith would be canon, and if he called for both women it would be absolutely 100% up for interpretation. but he didnt. his heart had decided whether he liked it or not ('or not'? that sounds weird lol).

it was (and is) tifa.

which is why, in a very literal sense, being the real cloud is being with no other person in all of gaia than tifa. she was the person who uncovered him. she holds his key. the only key to his true self. and its not like im glad it was only tifa, i could go with aerith. the importance of that scene for me was cloud reuniting with a person he desired for decades and letting that very person get his memories back. aerith or tifa, i'd be happy.

i may sound like a rabid cloti but im indirectly not. i just think this is the best love story every written and it just happens to be cloti. because its not "happily ever after". well, not how it is usually thought. it "clotily every after (and let's all hope Cloud isn't a total idiot and doesn't leave the entire family again and he deals with his problems together with them instead)". and this is coming from a person who HATES the thought of couples. yea, im happy its canon but that wouldnt change my feelings for cloti. as a matter of fact i remember supporting it shortly before i found out it was.

i'm no shipper in the least - i hate the idea of couples in the first place but cloti and zerith has a special place in my heart - but i would prefer others like HarryHermione (it just makes more sense imo) and SwanSparrow but i wont go "OMG I LURVE THEM SO DANG MUCH" and all. i would just like one over the other. i have no offense against shipping (except when beastiality comes into play like ElisexSonic and crap like that), its just when the ship comes to spill over into the official side it when it needs to be "DOWN BOY!" *LASH LASH*ed.

--------------------------
also:
Those fans who prefer — or “ship,” as the verb goes; derived from “relationship,” obviously —
>.< erm, in fact i was wondering how they came up with "ship" in the first place. i had no idea of the connection LOL well like i said, im learning new stuff in this article. >.< good thing you noted that.

&#8220;The Hunger Games&#8221; (Katniss and Peeta are 16). Look at all that Peeta&#8217;s &#8220;mere boyhood crush&#8221; leads him to do for Katniss&#8217; sake.
.............

this is something of which i am very ashamed of.

once upon a time, two years ago, a certain person was given the entire set of the Hunger Games trilogy for Christmas in one box. the person read all the books within 2 months and re-read the series again for some summer reading. then read it yet again. within the span of a year and a half, the series was read through three times, and each book singularly was read twice, giving a total of 12 re-reads. not even 8 months ago, the 2nd book was re-read (it was the favorite), making the grand total 13 re-reads. within these 13 readings, the favorite character of this person is Peeta Mellark himself.
and this example didnt come to mind. not once.

good gosh i think im going insane. but at least i know all of what peeta (and gale) do for that oblivious CloudNiss (really shes so oblivious for more than half for the series).

thats a perfect example, really. from anyone's besides peeta's point of view he did fall in love/start to fall in love when he was young and he barely approached her at all. his personality is nothing like cloud's, but they have similar love stories in a few ways.

once again thanks for bringing that up and shaming my HG fan knowledge.

as for aerith and her feelings for cloud, while it's completely stupid to not admit she loved him, i think she saw to herself that she was getting over zack and fell in love with cloud as a result. but what i dont believe is that she got over zack completely. i think when she said she "loves Cloud much more than Zack" i'd have to lean on what ryu suggested. it sounded like she was trying to convince herself that. that "zack was zack" and he was good and all, but cloud is better. not to say aerith shouldnt or couldnt love cloud more, but come on. i seriously dont think S/E would be such stupid trolls to make zerith that intimate and caring and make aerith screw zack when she saw there was more to cloud.

(..................wait. can somebody answer me on this? if aerith never got to see the real cloud, how did she fall in love with real cloud? because if she said "Cloud is Cloud" how could she possibly know this? now it really seems like shes forcing herself over zack :/)

anyway they even put a meaning of her almost literally head to toe outfit as a direct signal of her love for zack. even the darn flower stroller. which she wore for 3+ years (has anyone noticed that her hair goes back to the crisis core hairstyle in AC/CC?). she was wearing "I'm a Zack Fair Fangirl" all over her body quite literally and then she lies to Cloud's face and says they weren't close. if cloud had known he would have told her to go to a mind doctor. she was hurt. imagine all the things she could have thought. he played her, used her, didnt truly love her ect and then she's told he's dead. it wouldnt be too far fetched if she was denying herself.

anyway thats all imo but wait- isnt there a quote of aerith that when she died she loved cloud even more because of his zackyness? i dunno :/ maybe i was dreaming or had my zerith goggles on.

in case anyone was thinking otherwise, im NOT trying to excuse and ignore her feelings. she loved cloud nonetheless of what she felt about zack, apparently.

what im trying to say is that aerith really did love cloud - maybe she still does and would like to continue a relationship if there was a longer chance - heck maybe cloud would like to - but when she died, i think she was just so happy to be reunited with zack again.

anyway thats all just imo.
-----------------------------
*in regards to the aerith date*

even if it wasn't canon, i'd argue it to be sorely on the plot. it only makes sense because it connects of what cloud said something like "Tell me, Aerith-" or something like that.
why in the world would cloud ask something like that if she didnt hint she knew something about him he didnt?
also its a freakin harmless date. why get all worked up on a date that goes to moot because cloud, although having fun, is completely oblivious for what the date truly is. and aerith should spent at least one time alone with a guy she's interested/in love with shucks she dies too soon afterwards. :/ and this is coming from a person who is CCaerith>ffvii aerith any day.

i believe that date was canon. i mean look at the differences.

Wish I could've brought Marlene here. She'd love the fireworks.
Why the hell do I gotta be here with a foo like you...
Shit... the more I think 'bout it the madder I get!
......makes no sense. good comedy tho.

Yuffie
I just felt like doing that.
Cloud
............
Yuffie
That's all.
Cloud
............
Yuffie
H, hey!! Say something, why don't you!!
Cloud
............
Yuffie
......gawd, I could just die.
Cloud
............
Yuffie
Say something, PLEASE!
Cloud
...................something.
its within her personality but i cant see it in the game.

Tifa
Cloud...?
Sometimes being old friends is hard.
I mean, timing is everything.
Cloud
Yeah...
Tifa
Cloud...?
I......
........................
absolutely, completely, and utter waste of time/date. it shouldnt have happened at all. i wouldnt want this in the game in the least.


Aeris
I want to meet you.
Cloud
But I'm right here.
Aeris
(I know, I know...what I mean is...)
I want to meet...you.
this sticks with me. its light, but its the first ever hint that cloud isnt cloud. it just blends with the storyline better than any other.

oh wait. i say earlier that i cant think of anything wrong. well i put on my a friend's clerith goggles and i cant point out a few things like a nickpick.

OMG you just put up that picture of Fang and Vanille drawn by Amano as proof on page 4 and then the next page you say that Amano said his drawings have nothing to do with the product. so which one is it?!
so, obviously, that takes all of your argument to moot because of one thing that has absolutely nothing to do with VII and also gives rope to completely ignore the mother pictures shown in non-romantic times.

When she dies, Noel even holds Serah&#8217;s body against his, screams her name at the sky, caresses her cheek, strokes her hair and grieves over her &#8212; as Cloud did Aerith&#8217;s body with regard to at least a few of these.
Simple. Noel had true feelings for her but couldn't take it anymore at her death. Since Aerith's death and Cloud's reaction is romantic, that makes Noel's reaction romantic as well. That doesn't change a thing.
besides the fact the other friends have done the same thing so it doesnt strictly quality as romantic, which is proven time after time further on in the page.

Perhaps then this wallpaper &#8212; also from the official website &#8212; featuring only a handful of characters is meant to convey a similar commentary about Cloud and the Hero of DQV. Cloud next to Tifa, Aerith absent, the Hero next to Bianca &#8212; perhaps we are to see the two men as two heroes who not only starred in their respective franchise&#8217;s most popular offerings, but also ended up with their childhood friends:
OMG I can't believe this! Katniss and Gale were childhood friends and THEY didn't end up together!
.....what does that have to do with-
screw it. im taking these glasses off. its turning me delusional. my friend'l get them back in the morning.

oh, and for the ridiculous comment, Katniss and Peeta were childhood friends, but their relationship was just like cloud and tifa's - not close. i'll leave it up to you to guess how Katniss and Peeta play out later on in the series. so i suggest this not to be noted anymore.

Squall/Hawkeye i mean Madam, just ignore what the goggles told me. i still give you a thumbs up for your article.



aaaaaaand........ yup i think that's it for me now. this post has gotten more out of hand than i expected.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#54
Are you calling Glenn Madam because of his current Avatar/ UN? Because Hims is a dude.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
#55
Are you calling Glenn Madam because of his current Avatar/ UN? Because Hims is a dude.
whoops forgot to check here sflr

actually ive seen him twice on the LS and no i didnt know that. i was really playing around with Squall/Hawkeye because he has a girl name now and i adressed him formally. anyway i had no idea how to end my comment (im terrible at those) so i made a joke only a 2 year old would laugh at. and the end result is something different. :( oh well....i hope ill get funnier later on.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#56
I went ahead and added the Sakaguchi stuff into the "Old Ghosts" section. So, with that, everyone please let me leave it alone. =P

Orah said:
oh wait. i say earlier that i cant think of anything wrong. well i put on my a friend's clerith goggles and i cant point out a few things like a nickpick.

OMG you just put up that picture of Fang and Vanille drawn by Amano as proof on page 4 and then the next page you say that Amano said his drawings have nothing to do with the product. so which one is it?!
Your friend actually said this? That's got to be disappointing for you.

Let your friend know that the sketch of Fang and Vanille was not drawn by Amano. It's from the FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 3 and not from the section for Amano's art. As I recall, each of the later games (i.e. VII and after) has its own section for Amano art. It's from the Extra Material section for FFXIII, which -- if anything like the Extra Material sections for FFVII-XII -- doesn't have Amano's art, but, rather actual concept sketches and the like by the people who were actually making the game.

That also couldn't more obviously be Isamu Kamikokuryou's style rather than Amano's.

And also mention to your friend that I wasn't using the image as "proof" of anything. I was using it to make the page more lively and to provide me with an opportunity to make a perverted joke about Fang and Vanille.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
#57
I went ahead and added the Sakaguchi stuff into the "Old Ghosts" section. So, with that, everyone please let me leave it alone. =P



Your friend actually said this? That's got to be disappointing for you.

Let your friend know that the sketch of Fang and Vanille was not drawn by Amano. It's from the FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 3 and not from the section for Amano's art. As I recall, each of the later games (i.e. VII and after) has its own section for Amano art. It's from the Extra Material section for FFXIII, which -- if anything like the Extra Material sections for FFVII-XII -- doesn't have Amano's art, but, rather actual concept sketches and the like by the people who were actually making the game.


And also mention to your friend that I wasn't using the image as "proof" of anything. I was using it to make the page more lively and to provide me with an opportunity to make a perverted joke about Fang and Vanille.
something like so ^_^ i returned her goggles this morning BTW in case anyone was wondering.

and thanks a lot for the info. Lord knows she needs a ton of it

the thing is......is that shes a clerith "because its canon" (exact words here). when i further interviewed her she simply said because "it's obvious" and that "cloud has always had feelings for her" or "his love is plainer to her than with tifa's" or something along the lines of that. she hasnt played/ knows a lot about the game - only has looked at some major parts - but interestingly enough she has seen clerith in AC. i didnt get any hint of romance of the movie and i looked at it twice, so this is a little interesting to hear how others found out cloti or clerith in AC/ACC. here's her response from another time i asked her:

Okay, so the reason why I support CLOUD AND AERITH IN A RELATIONSHIP is because it's canon. That's it. I support all canon relationships, but nothing non-canon.
If Cloud and Tifa were in a canon relationship! I'd support it. If Zack and Tifa were in a canon relationship, I'd support it.
Heck, if Cloud and Zack were in a canon relationship, I'd support it because that's how the creators wanted it to be.
BUT even though Cloud has a soft spot for Tifa, he doesn't love her. Zack and Tifa barely interact. Cloud is probably straight, and he and Zack were just friends anyway. Best buds. That's it. That's all she wrote.

i really didnt understand the "soft spot but no love" part. now that we are looking at the VII game or compilation in love (romantically obviously) views, i can see some clotiness in AC, so i got 0% of what she meant. so i pressed on and asked why does she think its canon, if it is regardless? what evidence does S/E give for her answer?
she just replies she has "a literal mindset". for the life of me i have no idea what this means; i asked her twice and she didnt say anything to me that would - if you'll excuse the phrase - clerify.

whenever i ask her of the LTD i get the same response. i think that i'll ask for her entire view on clerith, just why she thinks its canon, and promise not to argue. then maybe i'll see why :D

she's an openminded clerith (thank God) so if i give her the proof it shouldnt be much trouble. i would just like to see her full views on the LTD, though. i hope i'll be successful next time we meet ^_^

anyway thanks
 
AKA
The Engineer
#59
@Danseru-kun: I think i stopped reading seriously as soon as they said they couldn't get into the new LTD article because they had to log in. :huh:

And then they proceeded to go over an entirely different LTD article...
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#60
Anastar says she didn't read it because she "has to log in" (the hell?). Instead, she just picked a random portion from the analysis from four years ago to reply to.

Disappointing.

[EDIT: Ninja'd.]
 
#61
MY FAVORITE COMMENT

LOL &#8212; I read his entire article and he actually proves why Clerith is every bit as valid as Cloti. But then at the end he basically says, "well, Cloti is canon regardless of all of these Clerith FACTS". A true bias shipper if there ever was one. Too bad people view him as King of the LTD and will blindly follow anything he says. Bottom line: SE has given just as much evidence in favor of Clerith. Squall of SEED basically admits this but then still concludes that Cloti is the canon couple. WTF????

http://dansantcaparet.tumblr.com/po...aerith-false-claims-the-ffvii-ltd-is-not-over
THE KING OF CLOTI. HEIL.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
#65
Well Anastar replied to me and said she said she didn't know that you had to click on the poem to read the full article and apologized.

She said she'll read it when she has time.
 
#66
You gotta love the "Cloud has feelings for Aerith"="He can't have feelings for Tifa" reasoning. I'll never understand it, but it's dreadfully fascinating.
I believe Cloud and Aerith had a special bond with strong romantic undertones, that Square Enix has a soft spot for. But I also believe that thematically, despite those feelings- he and Tifa are in love with each other, grew into each other, and then started their life- with the love for each other as the center of moving forward. Here is the evidence for it *thousands of words*"

Somehow that translates to
"I am a biased CloTi, Cloud can only love Aerith or Tifa, and he loves Tifa, I am blinded by everything- everyone should worship me."

Gotta, love it, rather than really trying to understand the point, readers will just sort of laugh it off, nitpick, and then passiveaggressively insult the writer. *tips hat*
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
#67
What I dislike about the reaction (which is predicatable btw) is the dismissal of an analysis into a mere "opinion" besides the fact that a previous article's small portion is used to represent a new book-length article. Then there's the strawman tactic where King Cloti (sorry Tres) is presented into someone making a dichotomy where Cloti=canon is the only valid interpretation and others are not... which is something not done at all.
 
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#68
Do we really need to have Anastar read this? There's no new information... I mean unless she really WANTS to, but I just don't see the point in going out of our way to make sure she sees it. Maybe it's just me
 
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#69
and I'm not saying I approve of the "King Cloti" comment or anything, but we already know the Clerith response to everything in there, don't we?

I was kind of hoping things could stay quiet :(
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
#70
Do we really need to have Anastar read this? There's no new information... I don't understand what the point of this is... did she WANT to read it?.... idgi
I shared the Tres' evil bible in the Cloti tag alone, then sometime after she reblogged my post with the mini rebuttal without even reading Tres' text. Her post also implied that she cannot log in due to some TLS conspiracy (which she took back but if someone read that the damage had been done.)

I really have no personal need for Anastar and the Cleriths to read it but it just bugged me that they questioned the integrity of the article meant for Clotis in the Cloti tag that they didn't even read :/
 
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AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#71
She follows me on tumblr and I reblogged it from you. That's probably how she saw it cause I don't think she normally goes into the Cloti tag.

I could be wrong though... does she normally do that?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#72
For clarification, there is quite a bit of stuff in there that has not been presented before elsewhere. In any case, the totality of it all has never been presented in a single "binding" before.

As for Anastar, it occurs to me that she is probably unaware that accounts on the forum don't transfer to the front page (WordPress and vBulletin have two separate account clients). Not that you have to log in to read the article, but, yeah.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
#73
She follows me on tumblr and I reblogged it from you. That's probably how she saw it cause I don't think she normally goes into the Cloti tag.

I could be wrong though... does she normally do that?
Hmmm "normal" is something I can't define but Anastar and her friends did post a few "neither pairing is canon and Clerith is just as valid and I chose it" write-ups in the Cloti tags when hell breaks loose sometimes. Not that I'm against it or anything, but they have knowledge of what's going on at least.

Anyway, I don't care if they don't agree with Tres, it's just a personal distaste of mine when people's integrity are questioned and hard work is dismissed as mere opinion.

I'm currently detached in FFVII anyway, I'll go back to loving Legend of Korra and ATLA.
 
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#74
For clarification, there is quite a bit of stuff in there that has not been presented before elsewhere.
Oh sorry, I didn't know, I only read through a couple sections and skimmed the rest. If you want I can tell her which parts have new information... IF you really want her to read it anyway, I still don't think it'll make much of a difference :monster:

Anyway, I don't care if they don't agree with Tres, it's just a personal distaste of mine when people's integrity are questioned and hard work is dismissed as mere opinion.
I know what you mean, acknowledging the ku comes to mind. But to clarify, it was Blankbeat that made that King Cloti post, right?
 
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