The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Vespa]

Well, this "triangle" always reminds me of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Sure, Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu Lien have a history but it's hard to progress from an awkward intimacy because of how fucked up their history is. Meanwhile Li Mu Bai is stirred by Jen after her mysterious appearance and her abilities, as well as her beauty I'm sure, but it's a dream.

Spoiler: Let's face it

Cloud and Aerith share little more than a dream, a marble in which one can see how it could be if the rest of the world would go hang and if time would stop. Both share a delusion: Cloud deluded into thinking he loves her [as Zack] and Aerith blurring Zack and Cloud due to the fact that their encounter was an echo from her encounter with Zack. Cloud became Zack, and thus her affection transferred over. No different to some mother whose kid died becoming attached to a boy who resembles her dead son. Watch CSI motherfuckers.

Back to reality, Cloud and Tifa probably move on from their fucked up history and progress things along slowly as Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu Lien would have done if he didn't get killed like a bitch.

I don't really see room for debate. Tifa is afraid and devoted to Cloud, and Cloud harbours deep feelings for her as well. Either nobody loves anybody or Cloud and Tifa will come to find and express their love for each other or remain forever friendzoned by trials of the heart that they failed to pass.

 

[Splintered]

r remain forever friendzoned by trials of the heart that they failed to pass.

Interesting. This sort of makes me think that even if Cloud and Tifa progress slowly, or not at all, it isn't because they don't love each other. It's because of fundamental character flaws.

Tifa's insecurities, Cloud's personal demons, they are the cause of all the issues. To suggest that they never get together, you could argue that would suggest that it means that they will never develop as characters/people. And that's the thing, the inability to express their feelings are problems, but it's problems that they have consistently worked passed. The idea that Cloud and Tifa will never develop as characters is laughable- but if they develop then so should the relationship.

When they grow as people, they have consistently grown closer, not the opposite.

 

[skyrise]

I can get supporting a couple and stand by it because hey preferences!, but attacking the already canon(BALL) couple seems rather silly; especially when it's been confirmed officially. (as if was needed, but whatever)
I guess it's the old tale of "haters gonna hate, spectators gonna spectate." Some people would deny it, even if SE remade FFVII for PS4 and went full front with a Cloti sex scene.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I knew I was wasting my time:

http://clerithluvr.tumblr.com/post/67580172116/i-got-this-link-in-email-yesterday-from-squall-of

I got this link in email yesterday from Squall of SeeD

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=549866&postcount=92

His post on the TLS forums is a response to three posts I made on Tumblr ... about* his new LTD Analysis posted at TLS by Squall of SeeD.

Now, Squall of SeeD’s post goes into a lengthy rant about how I’m trying to “discredit” him. I thought I was merely arguing a few of his points.

Debating with someone’s ideas doesn’t mean that you’re trying to “discredit” that person - it means that you disagree with that person and that you have different ideas.

Now, let’s look at something he said to me in his post:

...

In the first place, I DID click on the links in the parts you quoted. The part you’re ignoring is this:

The official English translation from SE doesn’t SAY that Cloud means anything different. The official English translation only says this:

"This time… I think I’ll be okay"
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. “Because I have you”
"You’ve always had me"
"I mean from tomorrow on" Cloud said again with another smile.

The official English translation from SE doesn’t say that Cloud means anything different. Squall of SeeD is translating the Japanese to mean that Cloud means something different, but SE did NOT translate it that way.

If SE wanted the passage to mean that Cloud “meant something different”, then why didn’t SE translate it that way?

Probably because SE didn’t want the English audience to get the idea that Cloud’s talking about how his relationship with Tifa is different than before. If SE wanted the English audience to get that idea, then SE would’ve translated the passage to mean that.

So this is my point, Squall of SeeD: you are reading meaning into the passage that SE didn’t give us with their official translation. You may THINK that’s what the Japanese text means, but SE didn’t translate it into English that way.

I don’t understand how Squall of SeeD can say “this is what SE means” on the basis of his own translation.

Sorry, but when I want to see what SE means, I rely on SE’s translation - not yours.

So, yeah. She's accusing me of trying to pass my translation from the *revised* version of Case of Tifa (which has never had an official English translation) off as the correct translation of the line officially translated as "I mean from tomorrow on" in the *original* version (a translation I've never disagreed with). Despite my explicit reference to the revised version and links to scans from the Japanese editions of both versions.

She can't pretend she doesn't know there is a revised version and that Nojima rewrote the line. As I linked to earlier, she posted it on her own forum with the altered line highlighted (by her). She has even seen that the official German translation has the new line.

I don't know what her game is, but it's really sad that a grown woman would carry on this way.

Shit, she still hasn't realized that the official translation isn't "SE's translation" any more than mine is. It's Sony Pictures's translation.

 

[Strangelove]

That link to the post about over reliance on subtitles seems counterproductive to the overall point she is making, as a rather major point in that was to be cautious of conclusions drawn solely from (any) translation, whereas her assertion is to favour 'official' translations over others. (except when it suits some need idk)

FFXII's official translation misgendered a character (Ajora). That doesn't make it right.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In that same passage from XII, it presented a completely inaccurate impression of Ivalice's timeline to boot. Official translations have fuck-ups all the time.

For God's sake, you sometimes have one person handling thousands -- if not tens of thousands -- of lines of text under a deadline. They're less likely to fuck up than someone with all the time in the world focusing on a single paragraph?

Eat my ass.

 

[Dashell]

Let me have a go at this... I think she forgot there's two versions or something. There's a major lack of communication going on here. Glenn should just get a tumblr

http://dashaque.tumblr.com/post/67598945777

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I will never conform to the Tumblian Movement! =P

As ever, you won't believe in anything but the best in folks. Please don't ever change.

 

[Dashell]

Well even if Anastar really is just lying and being sneaky and malicious that doesn't mean I can't at least explain it to the others involved

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think it's useless to discuss really, but I'll post something on my cloti blog to clarify stuff about the two versions of CoT.

Anybody got link to the German text or screenshot or anything? I have a German buddy in tumblr (but we already have someone over here so yeah.)

 

[Dashell]

tbh I'm getting confused and kind of frustrated... I don't even know what the issue is anymore

Is the issue that Tres translated something?... or that Square didn't?... or that they did and it wasn't right or Tres wasn't right or... something?

i just...


I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYMORE

 

[skyrise]

btw, random and not so random question, I've always thought that Tifa/Cloud fanbase was bigger than the Aeris/Cloud one- anybody got a legit reply to that? (as much as a legit reply applies to smth like this.) Isn't Tifa extremely popular in Japan?

 

[Splintered]

I always heard that cleris was more popular according to fan art and websites. It changed post advent children and crisis core but it's still a decent split.

Though I don't trust these morepopularinjapan arguments just because I've seen them so many times for all possible pairings in all fandoms. I don't care. Clack is more popular than both of them combined anyway.

 

[Danseru-kun]

btw, random and not so random question, I've always thought that Tifa/Cloud fanbase was bigger than the Aeris/Cloud one- anybody got a legit reply to that? (as much as a legit reply applies to smth like this.) Isn't Tifa extremely popular in Japan?

In the non-Japanese fanbase Cloti is gigantic, in ff.net alone the amount of Cloti fanfics is almost double of Clerith ones. There's actually more Clack and Clephiroth ones than Clerith.

As for the Japanese fanbase, if Pixiv is a good indicator, here's the most popular FF pairings:

Clephiroth - 430
Zerith- 455
SquallxBartz - 524
Squinoa - 531
Clack - 603
Clerith - 620
Cloti -848
*note around 20 fanarts in Cloti are CloudxTidus and CloudxTerra
HopexLightning - 1078

Note that this was taken last year but when I checked the gap is still the same.

Also I hunted for Japanese fanart sites and I spotted around 22 Cloti ones and Clerith isn't as many, actually I just saw a few of them.

 

[skyrise]

SquallxBartz - 524

de fuh bro, lol, am i even surprised.

and thanks for the replies guys, i just wanted to have an idea of the general consensus somewhat; from my time browsing around and such, i was always under the impression that cloti is more popular but most of its shippers are quiet and low-key while the clerith ones are loud and all titilated about preaching the truthness of the ~secret subtle canon~.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

tbh I'm getting confused and kind of frustrated... I don't even know what the issue is anymore

Is the issue that Tres translated something?... or that Square didn't?... or that they did and it wasn't right or Tres wasn't right or... something?

i just...


I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYMORE

Case of Tifa (Japanese): "I mean from tomorrow on."
Case of Tifa (official English translation): "I mean from tomorrow on."
Episode:Tifa (Japanese): "What I mean is kind of different."
Episode:Tifa (official English translation): [doesn't exist]
Episode:Tifa (official German translation): "I meant something different."

Me: "Cloud says 'I mean from tomorrow on' in the original Case of Tifa. He says 'What I mean is kind of different' in the revised version."
Anastar: "Squall of SeeD is trying to pass his translation ('What I mean is kind of different') off as more correct than the official translation ('I mean from tomorrow on')!"

Baby Jesus: ::cries::

I think it's useless to discuss really, but I'll post something on my cloti blog to clarify stuff about the two versions of CoT.

Anybody got link to the German text or screenshot or anything? I have a German buddy in tumblr (but we already have someone over here so yeah.)

Tets might have it. I'm not sure.

In either case, a German fan on the CxA boards translated from it a while back:

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/531405/1/

 

[Dashell]

Me: "Cloud says 'I mean from tomorrow on' in the original Case of Tifa. He says 'What I mean is kind of different' in the revised version."
Anastar: "Squall of SeeD is trying to pass his translation ('What I mean is kind of different') off as more correct than the official translation ('I mean from tomorrow on')!"

That's what I thought
Okay... just to clarify it for everyone involved, malicious or not:

http://dashaque.tumblr.com/post/67611823717/i-need-to-clear-something-up

Last thing I'm saying on the matter

In either case, a German fan on the CxA boards translated from it a while back:

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/531405/1/

I'm adding this as well

 

[Dashell]

so to sum up...

the ORIGINAL translation of the re translated line from the German release, which is a re release of the Japanese release (not the first English one, but the second Japanese one, that Nojima wrote) actually says...




That's what I feel like
(sorry this is spam, I know)

 

[Ryushikaze]

To conclude: Anastar doesn't trust anything Tres says because he disagrees with her desired conclusion, and she is trying to spin this as him being willfully disingenuous.

This is the opposite of news. This is business as usual.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so we get that there's two versions and that "What I mean is different" is not a translation for "I mean from tomorrow on"


Of course now other shit cropped up but I won't go into it, I'm just glad the other thing is settled

 

[Splintered]

"I'm not saying Squall of Seed is a terrible person, I'm saying he is a dirty whore trying to corrupt the mind of the masses while dubiously lying so that everyone will ship the same thing he does- the conspiracy runs deep."

The sequel.

 

[BlankBeat]

Hey Hey! I have a reply coming up...!!


and don't even deny it, Martha Jones...

I know you want to know what us Clerith's think about your latest analysis.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

http://clerithluvr.tumblr.com/post/67631428908

First, Anastar, I just want to thank you for that heartfelt apology. It was really big of you to concede that you made a mistake, that I wasn't lying and that it was simply dreadful how you carried on claiming that I was deliberately misrepresenting things.

That's what I wish I could say. Unfortunately, you knew exactly what you were doing and have made no apology for it.

Which is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Since Squall of SeeD didn’t give an official English translation of it, I could only assume there WAS no official English translation.

No, that's not what you've been saying all along. What you've been saying all along is that I'm a dirty liar and passing off a translation that's significantly different from an official translation as more accurate than the official translation while insisting that mine is more correct because ... well, you haven't really made up a "because" yet.

Please tell me: What am I supposedly using as the basis for this claim? I'm curious as to what the flimsy foundation of my lies is supposed to be.

You also haven't given a reason for me going to all this effort. I suppose it's because I'm supposed to be some well-known liar of the fandom who tries to mislead people into shipping something for some reason. Because I give a damn what people ship apparently. Because what's canon actually has an impact on what people want to ship or are allowed to. Because getting people on the Cloti boat would apparently mean something significant.

Any of that hitting near target?

Really, what exactly is supposed to be my motivation here? The idea of a grown-ass man who went to school for journalism of all things (you know, that profession where one's willingness to report the truth is somewhat vital to their ability to be employed) lying for the sake of a fictional pairing while using his real name makes sense to you, apparently. Doesn't make a goddamn bit of sense to me, though.

In that case, the translation he’s giving us is nothing but a fan translation. From the start, I’ve been saying that fan translations do not always agree with official SE translations. Therefore, it you want me to believe that what Cloud says is, “What I mean is kind of different” in CoT:Revised, then you’ll have to show it to me in an official English translation from SE.

I'm sure Lady Lifestream would be thrilled to know that all her effort translating the official German translation of the story into English meant nothing to you, along with that language itself apparently. Are you going to make the excuse you did in that thread?: "... the German translation of AC/ACC was really botched up at the end. So I don't think we should see differences in the German as 'corrections' or 'clarifications'."

It's only "SE's translation" if it's in English, right? Whether it's Sony Pictures or whoever actually doing the translation (as with the official English version of Case of Tifa), yeah? 'Cause they shipped Kazushige Nojima over from Japan to sit there and look over the translator's shoulder while the official English translations of Case of Tifa, etc. were performed, even though Nojima has admitted to not being able to understand English.

But SE probably paid for lessons for him to learn just so that he could carry out this worthy task, right? Because SE -- and especially the writer, Nojima himself -- cares so much about how the English translation comes out. They'll shit on German all day, but they're going to make damn sure that English translation is immaculate, amirite?

Because truth only shows up in the Language of the Lord -- English!

Next thing you'll be saying is that all them damn Mexi-cans need to stop talkin' that Ess-pan-ya'll nonsense and start talkin' English, 'cause if it were good 'nuff fer Jesus, it's good 'nuff fer the rest of us.

What I’m saying is that I’m not going to rely on a fan translation to tell me what SE means.

Except for all the times you do it on any given day? Like, just the other day when you said I was wrong about something because of three fan translations?

Hell, in the course of me writing this response, you reblogged a post that only features two sentences, one of which is a fan translation.

We have to rely on fan translations when we have nothing else.

Unless "we" is me apparently. I can't do that.

BUT I’m not the one claiming that my pairing is canon while yours is not.

So, who is "the one" doing that? It sure as shit ain't me.

Are you sure you read all of "Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally"? 'Cause I don't think you did.

I’m using the fan translations as evidence, not proof.

I'd like to introduce you to a friend of the English language. His name is Noah Webster:

ev·i·dence
noun \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
: something which shows that something else exists or is true
...
: something that furnishes proof

proof
noun \ˈprüf\
: something which shows that something else is true or correct
...
: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact

So, if you're not using fan translations as evidence and you're not using them as proof, what are you using them as? A semantic game you failed at coming right out of the starting gate?

I’m not the one saying that it’s impossible for Cloud to love either Aerith or Tifa.

Same question as above: Who is "the one" doing that?

Squall of SeeD is the one saying he has definite proof thanks to his fan translations - not me.

So we can never have proof of anything from Episode:Tifa because Sony Pictures didn't feel like having their people translate that story again when they released Advent Children Complete in North America? Sorry that I refuse to look at Japanese as some kind of primitive, heathenistic mystical moon language that can't be deciphered by anyone but those few holy English clerics who take upon themselves the taint of touching non-English words.

For a fan of a Japanese video game, you come off as frighteningly xenophobic.

By the way, does this "official English=Word of God" thing mean you're now on board with the official translation that Tifa wears the pants in her relationship with Cloud?

 

[Dashell]

http://clerithluvr.tumblr.com/post/67631428908

First, Anastar, I just want to thank you for that heartfelt apology. It was really big of you to concede that you made a mistake, that I wasn't lying and that it was simply dreadful how you carried on claiming that I was deliberately misrepresenting things.

That's what I wish I could say. Unfortunately, you knew exactly what you were doing and have made no apology for it.

ahaha I thought this was legit at first and I was so happy that everything was fine now.

Also how was the German translation of AC botched?
I never heard that one before

By the way, does this "official English=Word of God" thing mean you're now on board with the official translation that Tifa wears the pants in her relationship with Cloud?

Wasn't the response to this that she wears the pants in the business or something?

 

[Splintered]

Oh are they mad they cant brainwash you into believing their translations over SE’s? Seriously, they think they’re some god cause they’ve done a few translations.

Hate to break it to them but they’re just fans. They have as much credibility as someone who just played the game yesterday. Thinking their translations are better than official translations … shitting themselves are they?

You hear that King of CLoti? That's what you get for claiming you are a god, then trying to make claim by fusing with the lifestream. Or translating things. And now brainwashing.

Stop shitting yourself man in public man. That's just gross.