The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Splintered]

I think the whole translation thing is hilarious considering all the discussion (the non LTD ones) on this recently.

Like when Kitase admits that he does not understand localization issues (despite being a producer) and was asking fans how they believe it would be better.

Just recently in the FFXIII fandom, there was a huge stink about how the translations were done between the English and Japanese versions. If you would go to them and say that they should blindly accept the official version no questions asked you'd get vomited on by a sea of rage between the fit of hysterical laughs. Actually, this would happen in a lot of fandoms in which Japanese fansubbers/fantranslations are prevalent.

I dunno, but having been in fandoms translators are a vital and active part of the community, I find the idea that people snubbing a fan translation automatically, especially one when they actively break down and explain their translations, absolutely absurd.

 

[BlankBeat]

cloud 'thinking about aerith a lot' is actually another thing the localisation added or messed up, the japanese line just says that he remembers aerith which follows on to his next line about not having remembered/forgotten

クラウド
「俺は……エアリスのことを思いだしてた」 (i've been remembering [things about] aerith)
「いや……そうじゃない。思いだしたんじゃない。忘れていたんじゃない。そんなのじゃなくて……」 (no, that's not right. i haven't remembered. i haven't forgotten. it's not like that)

the following lines sound like he's talking about what he was thinking

「なんていうか…… エアリスは、そこにいたんだ。いつも、俺たちのそばに」 (how do you put it, aerith was there, by our sides)
「あまり近すぎて、見えなかった。エアリスのしたこと……エアリスの残した言葉……」 (we were too close and couldn't see. what aerith did, the words she left behind)

Where is the Japanese text about Cloud remembering Aerith?

 

[Strangelove]

you're looking at it. it's in that post you just quoted.

 

[Tetsujin]

SE has endorsed this translation -- it has their stamp of approval.

(...)SE approved French translation.

Bit of a misconception here.

No one at Square Enix goes around checking foreign translations to approve them. A foreign publisher got the rights for publishing and translating, they hired professional translators, shit gets translated and eventually published, that's it. Don't expect there to be some kind of quality control from SE's side.

Not saying the translations are necessarily inaccurate, just clearing up the process.

 

[Strangelove]

by that logic, square endorsed the translation of ffxiii-2 making it correct, even though it includes an error which makes a plot hole (

Spoiler

noel saying he was the last child born, even though yuel is younger than him. in the japanese game he says specifically 'we' were the children born.

). people tried to defend that based on what the english one said with a bunch of theories (

Spoiler

yuel doesn't count as a normal birth because she is a reincarnation

), even though the most simple answer is it's just a mistake.

parts of lightning returns' ending change the tone/events of the story, but are those meant to be more meaning than the japanese version because it's an 'endorsed translation' (actually from one of square's branches)?

 

[BlankBeat]

you're looking at it. it's in that post you just quoted.

Whoops. I missed the part in red:

クラウド
「俺は……エアリスのことを思いだしてた」 (i've been remembering [things about] aerith)
「いや……そうじゃない。思いだしたんじゃない。忘れていたんじゃない。そんなのじゃなくて……」 (no, that's not right. i haven't remembered. i haven't forgotten. it's not like that)

So Cloud has been remembering things about Aerith. Things that happened when he wasn't his complete self. My point still stands.

And I thought I'd ask someone else how they would translate it just to be sure. Awaiting their response.

---------------------

No one at Square Enix goes around checking foreign translations to approve them.

Proof?

A foreign publisher got the rights for publishing and translating, they hired professional translators, shit gets translated and eventually published, that's it. Don't expect there to be some kind of quality control from SE's side.

How did they get the rights in the first place?

--------------------

My point is very simple -- "koibito" can be translated as "beloved" or "lover" in Japanese. Given the evidence in FFVII, it's clear that "koibito" should be translated as "lover". But some will obviously dispute this.

However, we now have an official French translation that verifies the translation of "koibito" to "lover". It is simply one more piece of evidence supporting the belief that "koibito" should be translated as "lover".

 

[BlankBeat]

by that logic, square endorsed the translation of ffxiii-2 making it correct, even though it includes an error which makes a plot hole (

Spoiler

noel saying he was the last child born, even though yuel is younger than him. in the japanese game he says specifically 'we' were the children born.

). people tried to defend that based on what the english one said with a bunch of theories (

Spoiler

yuel doesn't count as a normal birth because she is a reincarnation

), even though the most simple answer is it's just a mistake.

parts of lightning returns' ending change the tone/events of the story, but are those meant to be more meaning than the japanese version because it's an 'endorsed translation' (actually from one of square's branches)?

But nothing in the translation of "koibito" to "lover" contradicts anything. In-fact, it supports everything we've been told -- Cloud and Aerith fancied each other from day one.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Sprites]

You should read Tres' analysis of Cloud's Cosmo Canyon line in his recent LTD article. He may be able to sway you better than I can.

It's under: "Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise"

uh yeah...he says that Aerith doesn't even acknowledge that line by Cloud, like ever so.....I don't really know where you're going with it or why you bothered bringing the article into it there, it still doesn't prove the line romantically.

If you want to personally believe Cloud and Tifa have already had a date, fine. But SE hasn't declared it as such.

If you want to personally believe that line is a nod towards Clerith, fine. But SE hasn't declared it as such.

To me, Cosmo Canyon would count under CxA's tally of romantic moments. But it wouldn't count under your tally. So to even begin down this road would take far too much energy than I'm willing to put forth. Sorry.

Well that's your choice but it would have helped your argument a lot more to back it up with examples, even a few, after all I provided you with three different examples of how there are more obvious instances of romance in the FF Games, than the 'sophisticated' stuff you were talking about.

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud has been remembering things about Aerith. Things that happened when he wasn't his complete self. My point still stands.

my post was in reference to tres' post here, using an example that had been brought up in the thread:

When have you seen me -- or anyone here, really -- go that route? If I disagree with an official translation, I pull up the Japanese text and explain why the official translation is wrong.

And they often are at some or another. Not because the translators doing the work are bad at it (I still argue to this day that FFVII's original translation is really freakin' good, despite its classic, well-known errors), but because they have a lot of material to go over in a short period of time. Mistakes get made.

Coming back to the topic of disagreeing with official translations, the line from the end of FFVII is really the only case of disagreement where a debate can even be had since the original wording is ambiguous even in Japanese, and I'm not so much disagreeing with the translation itself as the conclusions you draw from it.

However, we now have an official French translation that verifies the translation of "koibito" to "lover". It is simply one more piece of evidence supporting the belief that "koibito" should be translated as "lover".

you have one that does, and one that doesn't (the german one). how is it definitive if you have equal evidence on both sides?

But nothing in the translation of "koibito" to "lover" contradicts anything. In-fact, it supports everything we've been told -- Cloud and Aerith fancied each other from day one.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

'lover' means something different than 'fancied each other'

and i was talking about your claim that translations endorse some interpretation of the original. you have one for 'koibito' where it is 'beloved'. why is that less valid?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's under: "Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise"

uh yeah...he says that Aerith doesn't even acknowledge that line by Cloud, like ever so.....I don't really know where you're going with it or why you bothered bringing the article into it there, it still doesn't prove the line romantically.

Oh, I definitely think it's romantic. My point in mentioning that Aerith doesn't comment on it was just to address the notion of an established relationship, not to say that the line wasn't romantic.

I mention the line again elsewhere in the analysis.

 

[Tetsujin]

Proof?

If they had people at SE Japan speaking French, German etc to go through entire translations to approve of them, don't you think they would let them do the translations in the first place?

That's why you have branches and outsourcing. So you *don't* have to check every piece yourself.

How did they get the rights in the first place?

Contact Square-Enix or Tuttle Mori, introduce themselves as a professional and accomplished publisher, express interest in acquiring rights for translation and publishing; Square Enix goes 'okay seems good', they work out a deal, shit gets done.

 

[BlankBeat]

you have one that does, and one that doesn't (the german one). how is it definitive if you have equal evidence on both sides?

Japanese “koibito” can mean lover (mutual) or beloved (one-sided).

German “geliebter” can mean lover (mutual) or beloved (one-sided).

French “amant” can only mean lover (mutual).

Since "amant" can only be translated as "lover" and not "beloved", it's not contradicting the German *OR* the Japanese version because both the German and Japanese versions can also be translated as "lover". This means, according to the French translation, both the Japanese and German translations should be "lover" *NOT* "beloved".

'lover' means something different than 'fancied each other'

Don't you have to fancy each other to become lovers, though?

you have one for 'koibito' where it is 'beloved'. why is that less valid?

What are you talking about? The German translation of “geliebter” can mean either "beloved" or "lover," same with "koibito" in Japanese.

Two say it can be either "beloved" or "lover"
One says it can only be "lover"

The usage of "amant" gives us insight into how we should interpret "geliebter" and "koibito" (ie: they mean lover *NOT* beloved)

--------------------

If they had people at SE Japan speaking French, German etc to go through entire translations to approve of them, don't you think they would let them do the translations in the first place?

That's why you have branches and outsourcing. So you *don't* have to check every piece yourself.

Proof reading can and does occur. I'm willing to bet someone working for SE reads and writes French. There's no way to know for certain what goes on behind the scenes.

Contact Square-Enix or Tuttle Mori, introduce themselves as a professional and accomplished publisher, express interest in acquiring rights for translation and publishing; Square Enix goes 'okay seems good', they work out a deal, shit get's done.

Right. SE says "okay" because they believe they are a trustworthy company, thereby giving them their stamp of approval for whatever they produce.

Bottom line is, official French translators give support to the notion that "koibito" should be translated to "lover" in this instance.

--------------------

It's under: "Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise"

uh yeah...he says that Aerith doesn't even acknowledge that line by Cloud, like ever so.....I don't really know where you're going with it or why you bothered bringing the article into it there, it still doesn't prove the line romantically.

So what if Aerith doesn't acknowledge Cloud's line? It's still showing romance on Cloud's part, which is the point.

If you want to personally believe that line is a nod towards Clerith, fine. But SE hasn't declared it as such.

Same with thinking the water tower is a date.

Well that's your choice but it would have helped your argument a lot more to back it up with examples, even a few, after all I provided you with three different examples of how there are more obvious instances of romance in the FF Games, than the 'sophisticated' stuff you were talking about.

If you don't agree that Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon is a romantic moment between Cloud and Aerith, how are we to even begin tallying up romantic moments between pairings?

And it doesn't just have to be the amount of "moments". I'd argue that screen time is a factor, too. And the date at Gold Saucer takes up a lot of screen time.

There's just so many different factors that would make this an impossible debate to have. We'd first have to agree on what makes a moment romantic, and then go from there. Agreeing on that, by itself, would take a ton of time to sort out.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The usage of "amant" gives us insight into how we should interpret "geliebter" and "koibito" (ie: they mean lover *NOT* beloved)

...

Bottom line is, official French translators give support to the notion that "koibito" should be translated to "lover" in this instance.

It really doesn't. Again, you're assuming the intent of the Japanese author is reflected in the foreign translation from someone who has probably never spoken to that author.

Or are you back to claiming the myriad errors in official English translations (Cloud telling Elmyra about Aerith's death, Noel being the last child born, FFXII taking place after FFTactics, etc., etc., etc.) are actually more correct than the Japanese originals and give insight into what the Japanese writers actually meant?

Dude, I keep telling you: this is utterly shit reasoning.

 

[Strangelove]

Japanese “koibito” can mean lover (mutual) or beloved (one-sided).

German “geliebter” can mean lover (mutual) or beloved (one-sided).

French “amant” can only mean lover (mutual).

Since "amant" can only be translated as "lover" and not "beloved", it's not contradicting the German *OR* the Japanese version because both the German and Japanese versions can also be translated as "lover". This means, according to the French translation, both the Japanese and German translations should be "lover" *NOT* "beloved".

again, though, translations don't change how you can read the original version. just because it doesn't change anything. you don't need to read the translation to understand the original. otherwise all the japanese fans who don't know french must be missing out on what the true intent of nojima is.

maybe it is meant to be 'beloved' and the french one is wrong by using a word that doesn't have that meaning. maybe the german one is better because it keeps both of the meanings like the japanese word has.

Proof reading can and does occur. I'm willing to bet someone working for SE reads and writes French. There's no way to know for certain what goes on behind the scenes.

you're willing to assume this without anything to back it up

where were the proofreaders when they messed up 俺たち or 俺 in ffxiii-2? or all the other errors that creep in?

kitase doesn't even get involved with the localisations of the games he works on as they are being released. but some unnamed person from square looked through the translation of a book that's several years old to make sure it was accurate?

 

[Sprites]

Oh, I definitely think it's romantic. My point in mentioning that Aerith doesn't comment on it was just to address the notion of an established relationship, not to say that the line wasn't romantic.

I agree it is quite romantic, I acknowledged that myself in that it could have a romantic notion when I first brought it up but what I'm saying is, it's personal preference as to how you interpret the line and not an actual confirmation by SE of Cloud's feelings for Aerith, that's all I'm saying about it...

Similar to me interpreting Cloud and Tifa at the well, it's my preference that it can be seen as a date or datelike, but I know it's not acknowledged as one by SE and while it's nice to use it as my preference to the couple I can't argue it as factual evidence.

I was using it also as an example of how there's a difference between stating your opinion and stating the facts something that I know I've been guilty of in this thread but unfortunately BlankBeat, you have a major track record of doing that...and as I said earlier why is it ok for BlankBeat to suggest his opinion is a fact but then say mine isn't and then say if it's not officially said by SE then it shouldn't be said at all but yet when he does it, it's fine in his eyes, it's that whole thing again of it can be both ways...

 

[Tetsujin]

There's no way to know for certain what goes on behind the scenes.

Well yeah, one could ask the translator about the process of translation and working for SE.
The German translator has done interviews for fansites, so that wouldn't even be out of the question.

 

[BlankBeat]

again, though, translations don't change how you can read the original version.

And the original version can be read as "lover" or "beloved". The French translation simply gives validility to reading the original version as "lover".

you don't need to read the translation to understand the original. otherwise all the japanese fans who don't know french must be missing out on what the true intent of nojima is.

Uhhh...but the original text can mean two things: lover or beloved. Therefore, some clarification is required when reading the original text because "koibito" can mean two things. So I'm not understanding what you mean when you say, "you don't need to read the translation to understand the original" because the original word of "koibito" can mean two things. Some clarification is required. Therefore, wouldn't official translations be one way to help clarify which of the two is meant?

Obviously those doing the French translation thought "lover" was the correct usage of "koibito". Therefore, the French translators are giving validity to the position that the original text should be read as "lover" rather than "beloved".

Obviously Nojima would be the final word on this debate, but that's never going to happen. All we can use to make an educated guess is:

1. Source material
2. Official translations

Well, the official French translation is "lover" and the source material supports the French translation. Case closed (unless someone can get Nojima in for an interview)

maybe it is meant to be 'beloved' and the french one is wrong by using a word that doesn't have that meaning. maybe the german one is better because it keeps both of the meanings like the japanese word has.

So you're arguing that "koibito" means both lover and beloved?

Okay. Fine. That doesn't change the fact that Cloud is Aerith's lover, therefore making them canon.

where were the proofreaders when they messed up 俺たち or 俺 in ffxiii-2? or all the other errors that creep in?

kitase doesn't even get involved with the localisations of the games he works on as they are being released. but some unnamed person from square looked through the translation of a book that's several years old to make sure it was accurate?

Humans are imperfect creates. Errors will always happen. But nothing in the source material contradicts the official French translation of "lover". Therefore, the French translation isn't an error.

--------------------

It really doesn't. Again, you're assuming the intent of the Japanese author is reflected in the foreign translation from someone who has probably never spoken to that author.

How do we know those doing the translation didn't get acquainted with the story of FFVII and speak directly with SE? Seems logical that they would, considering doing accurate translations is their job.

Or are you back to claiming the myriad errors in official English translations (Cloud telling Elmyra about Aerith's death, Noel being the last child born, FFXII taking place after FFTactics, etc., etc., etc.) are actually more correct than the Japanese originals and give insight into what the Japanese writers actually meant?

Errors can and do occur. But nothing suggests translating "koibito" to "lover" is an error. All the source material supports this translation.

All I'm saying is that this is one more piece of evidence that supports translating "koibito" to "lover" rather than "beloved". Obviously, the French translators (for whatever reason) thought "lover" would be more accurate than "beloved". Therefore, they give validity to the position that "koibito" should be translated as "lover".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

How do we know those doing the translation didn't get acquainted with the story of FFVII and speak directly with SE? Seems logical that they would, considering doing accurate translations is their job.

Got acquainted with the story, sure, maybe, but where is the reason to believe that such a thing as talking to Nojima or anyone at Square Enix for that matter took place? You're the one making an extraordinary suggestion here that utterly defies how these things normally go down.

Nojima isn't credited as a consultant on the translation, the copyright page leaves no indiciation that the translator or even the publisher spoke directly to Square Enix or anyone but a third party that specializes in arranging publishing licenses, and even internal translations at SE aren't overseen by the development team.

Where is the extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary suggestion?

Errors can and do occur. But nothing suggests translating "koibito" to "lover" is an error. All the source material supports this translation.

For the last time, I'm not talking about the "koibito" quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge.

 

[Strangelove]

And the original version can be read as "lover" or "beloved". The French translation simply gives validility to reading the original version as "lover".

does the german version give validity to it having two meanings, since it's also go two meanings?

of course not, that's not clerithy enough

Uhhh...but the original text can mean two things: lover or beloved.

maybe that was the point

Therefore, some clarification is required when reading the original text because "koibito" can mean two things.

'clarification' that japanese fans who don't know french and don't bother looking up what foreign translations say will never get

are japanese fans who don't look up foreign translations doomed to a life of poor understanding of the story because they aren't dedicated enough to find out what french versions say?

Obviously Nojima would be the final word on this debate, but that's never going to happen. All we can use to make an educated guess is:

1. Source material
2. Official translations

Well, the official French translation is "lover" and the source material supports the French translation. Case closed (unless someone can get Nojima in for an interview)

and my point was you don't need 2., because you don't need to use translations to interpret things. you don't go looking what the swedish version of harry potter says if you want to understand it

but you're acting like because one translation when with a word with a single meaning means that's the most valid way to read the original.

my point is that other interpretations of the original aren't suddenly invalidated by the creation of some derivative work based on it

Okay. Fine. That doesn't change the fact that Cloud is Aerith's lover, therefore making them canon.

i don't know how you're using the word 'canon'. that they have feelings for each other? that there were in a 'lovers' relationship?

Humans are imperfect creates. Errors will always happen. But nothing in the source material contradicts the official French translation of "lover". Therefore, the French translation isn't an error.

are you staying this based on your substantial knowledge of both japanese and french?

apparently there is a whole side to ffvii that was previously unknown. thanks, french translation, for bring this sordid subplot to light

according to this, 'amante' is more akin to 愛人 than 恋人 (sexual partner of a woman out of wedlock.)

that is an error. amoureux seems like a better match for 恋人 than amant

but i don't really know french.

or maybe cloud really was meant to be aerith's extramarital lover? i mean, the japanese version doesn't hint at adultery but you know. the french translation is clarifying things for everyone.

 

[BlankBeat]

does the german version give validity to it having two meanings, since it's also go two meanings?

of course not, that's not clerithy enough

I've only ever seen people argue that it can mean one or the other. If you want to argue that it means both, fine. Cloud is Aerith's "lover" *AND* her "beloved." Still doesn't change the fact that Cloud is Aerith's lover

maybe that was the point

Then I'm not arguing against people like you. I'm arguing against people who say it means "beloved" only.

There are three possibilities:

1. "Koibito" can mean both "beloved" and "lover"
2. "Koibito" can mean "lover"
3. "Koibito" can mean "beloved"

Well, the French translation of "lover" only allows for two of those possibilities to be valid: "koibito" can mean both "beloved" *AND* "lover," or it can mean "lover" only. But it cannot mean "beloved" only because the French translation says "lover". Therefore, according to the French translation, "lover" is always included in the meaning of "koibito". So it's either "lover" *AND* "beloved," or just "lover" -- but never just "beloved".

'clarification' that japanese fans who don't know french and don't bother looking up what foreign translations say will never get

are japanese fans who don't look up foreign translations doomed to a life of poor understanding of the story because they aren't dedicated enough to find out what french versions say?

I'm assuming SE thought Japanese fans would air on the side of "lover" given the source material...

Regardless, if it means both, then there's no need for clarification. But I've seen people argue that it means "beloved" only. However, according to the French translation, "lover" must be included in the definition. So it's either "lover" *AND* "beloved," or "lover". Never just "beloved".

and my point was you don't need 2., because you don't need to use translations to interpret things. you don't go looking what the swedish version of harry potter says if you want to understand it

but you're acting like because one translation when with a word with a single meaning means that's the most valid way to read the original.

my point is that other interpretations of the original aren't suddenly invalidated by the creation of some derivative work based on it

The argument (from what I understand) is that "koibito" means "lover" or "beloved." One or the other. But if you want to say it means both, then I agree, there's no need to look to official translations. But if you want to say it means one or the other, official translations can provide some insight.

according to this, 'amante' is more akin to 愛人 than 恋人 (sexual partner of a woman out of wedlock.)

that is an error. amoureux seems like a better match for 恋人 than amant

but i don't really know french.

or maybe cloud really was meant to be aerith's extramarital lover? i mean, the japanese version doesn't hint at adultery but you know. the french translation is clarifying things for everyone.

When I look up "amant," it says "lover" that can also be a sexual partner. I see nothing wrong with the word "amant".

--------------------

Got acquainted with the story, sure, maybe, but where is the reason to believe that such a thing as talking to Nojima or anyone at Square Enix for that matter took place?

To ask for clarification about things that might be confusing? Going to the creators seems like the best place to go for clarification.

You're the one making an extraordinary suggestion here that utterly defies how these things normally go down.

How do you know how things normally go down?

Nojima isn't credited as a consultant on the translation, the copyright page leaves no indiciation that the translator or even the publisher spoke directly to Square Enix or anyone but a third party that specializes in arranging publishing licenses, and even internal translations at SE aren't overseen by the development team.

Where is the extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary suggestion?

You don't think SE inquired about how a publishing company does their translations before giving them the rights?

So SE just let some random company take the rights to their material and do translations through a third party, without thoroughly vetting them first? Damn. That's a really scary thing for SE to do, especially because everyone in France might receive information from some company that is completely unfit for translations, and yet SE's name is on that material. Normally, when I see SE's logo, I assume it's legit because they gave the rights to a company they know, trust, and have thoroughly vetted. But if that's not the case, I'd seriously suggest writing a letter to SE and telling them that doing this is very risky business.

For the last time, I'm not talking about the "koibito" quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge.

EDITING FOR CLARITY:

According to the French translation, "koibito" *CANNOT* mean "beloved" only. It can only mean "lover" *AND* "beloved" *OR* "lover" only. The French translators are just another way to lend credibility to the fact that "lover" must always be included in the meaning of "koibito," and it cannot just mean "beloved" only. Obviously, the French translators translated it that way for a reason. And SE trusts this company to hire people to do translations. So who's word should I take...

Some random Cloti (not you in particular) that says "koibito" means "beloved" ONLY ...or an official French translation by a company SE gave the rights to? I'll go with the latter.

 

[T@ctic]

Given that there's ample evidence to conclude Cloud was Aerith's lover, and SE has officially endorsed the French translation (regardless of Nojima's lack of involvement), Cloud is Aerith's lover. SE has endorsed this translation -- it has their stamp of approval.

At this point, there's really nothing more that can be done unless Nojima is asked directly about it (which is highly unlikely). Therefore, based on all the available information we have access to, "koibito" means "lover" according to the SE approved French translation. Cloud is Aerith's lover.

wait -

SE has officially endorsed the French translation Cloud is Aerith's lover.

Therefore, based on all the available information we have access to, "koibito" means "lover" according to the SE approved French translation.

it's sounding awwwwwfully like you are saying "If there is no official translating or official approval, it's wrong and we shouldn't believe it."

because if you are, do you know how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

just to show you, i'll use one subject used on the internet, manga. you do know that there are barely - if at all - any official translations on the internet right? and that they are fan-translated? don't be small minded on S/E books and think bigger. according to your logic, you bring the ENTIRE WORLD OF INTERNET MANGA to the most violent, screeching, explosive ending in history. so all the manga sites (mangahere, readmanga, tenmanga, mangastream etc) have no idea what they are posting? after all, i haven't seen Yen Press, Viz Media, Harper Collins etc confirm for them to be true.

so i guess all those people who cannot afford/too lazy to get manga in the bookstores are just at a loss. they have no hope at getting an inkling of what's going on in the next Naruto chapter online - since it hasn't been dunked in the official ink of the official publishing building, after all, not a word on any of the pages may be right.

do you get my point? sounds pretty silly, laughable even.

i'm not saying official translations are overrated and we shouldn't listen to them. but to say OTHER translations are useless to even bother to think about is definitely minuscule thinking.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To ask for clarification about things that might be confusing? Going to the creators seems like the best place to go for clarification.

Once again, where is your evidence that this ever happened? Where is Nojima or anyone at Square credited for consultation or anything other than owning the rights to it/its characters?

When the authors of fucking strategy guides are acknowledging by name the random people at Square who helped them when they had "to ask for clarification about things that might be confusing," you think something like this would fail to do the same? No, dude.

How do you know how things normally go down?

Because I haven't spent my 27 years on this Earth with my eyes closed and my ears covered. I've seen countless works with English translations that were originally in Japanese and I know what you're claiming doesn't go down.

"Dragon Ball Z," "Sailor Moon," "Yu-Gi-Oh!," "Pokémon," "Digimon," countless other anime, past Final Fantasy games and countless other video games -- someone at the original source running through them to check for accuracy (because the guys in charge care so much about that they'll spend money on it, apparently) is plainly absurd. It doesn't happen.

You don't think SE inquired about how a publishing company does their translations before giving them the rights?

Which is not the same thing as paying one of their own people to translate the damn thing themselves to make sure that someone else did the translation properly.

So SE just let some random company take the rights to their material and do translations through a third party, without thoroughly vetting them first?

Unless your "thoroughly vetting them" process includes a crystal ball, I'm pretty sure nobody was checking the translation.

But if that's not the case, I'd seriously suggest writing a letter to SE and telling them that doing this is very risky business.

It hasn't hurt them so far. Not that I think a number of their business practices have been smart either, but I think they probably know a little more about what they're doing as a business than either of us, seeing as they run a multi-million dollar business and we don't.

According to the French translation, "koibito" *CANNOT* mean "beloved" only. It can only mean "lover" *OR* "beloved" *AND* "lover". The French translators are just another way to lend credibility to the fact that "lover" must always be included in the meaning of "koibito," and it cannot just mean "beloved" only. Obviously, the French translators translated it that way for a reason. And SE trusts this company to hire people to do translations. So who's word should I take...

Some random Cloti (not you in particular) that says "koibito" means "beloved" ONLY ...or an official French translation by a company SE gave the rights to? I'll go with the latter.

Once a-fucking-gain:

"For the last time, I'm not talking about the 'koibito' quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge."

 

[Strangelove]

I've only ever seen people argue that it can mean one or the other. If you want to argue that it means both, fine. Cloud is Aerith's "lover" *AND* her "beloved." Still doesn't change the fact that Cloud is Aerith's lover

you're twisting my words around. i didn't say anything like 'it means both at the same time'. it can mean either of them.

There are three possibilities:

1. "Koibito" can mean both "beloved" and "lover"
2. "Koibito" can mean "lover"
3. "Koibito" can mean "beloved"

Well, the French translation of "lover" only allows for two of those possibilities to be valid: "koibito" can mean both "beloved" *AND* "lover," or it can mean "lover" only. But it cannot mean "beloved" only because the French translation says "lover". Therefore, according to the French translation, "lover" is always included in the meaning of "koibito". So it's either "lover" *AND* "beloved," or just "lover." But never just "beloved".

which only matters if you concern yourself with the french translation. and it's perfectly acceptable not to give it a second thought.

I'm assuming SE thought Japanese fans would air on the side of "lover" given the source material...

how you read the source material. but you're assuming what square's motives and intentions are, again. you assume a hell of a lot

Regardless, if it means both, then there's no need for clarification. But I've seen people argue that it means "beloved" only. However, according to the French translation, "lover" must be included in the definition. So it's either "lover" *AND* "beloved," or "lover". Never just "beloved".

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means, which is what was debated prior to this book's release

i don't know who you've seen saying it only means 'beloved' (unless they simply meant in this context/usage). c/t fans wouldn't want to do that i assume since it means they would lose nomura's 'koibito' quote

When I look up "amant," it says "lover" that can also be a sexual partner. I see nothing wrong with the word "amant".

i didn't think you would

foreign language dictionaries give you a gloss of what the word means. sometimes with notes on its nuances but sometimes not.

http://www.linternaute.com/dictionnaire/fr/definition/amant/
Partenaire sexuel d'une femme hors mariage (Sexual partner of a woman out of wedlock)

http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/amant/2670?q=amant#2663
Homme avec qui une femme a des relations sexuelles en dehors du mariage (Man with a woman who has sex outside of marriage)

dictionaries aren't perfect, and even monolingual ones might not tell you exactly how it's used in real life. according to these people, 'amant' in its modern sense is lover in the sense of adultery

Spoiler

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=158299

Also, "amant" used to mean "the man you love". but its most common use is today to define the person a woman deceives her husband with. It used to mean "the man you love" originally.

-----

I am French speaking and I would use amant and maîtresse to speak about someone you have a lover relationship with beside marriage

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2029020

"amant" and "maitresse" are nowadays mainly used for married couple when having sex with somebody else

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=812907

Amant/Amante are much more informal terms. Less emotional...
Moreover, Amant is usually used for extra-conjugal relations (relationships?).

-----

Amant -for a woman- (amante is not so widely used) is either your partner in a relationship based on sex or your lover if you are already married to another man.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=60744

I'm not sure about the word lover but you have to be aware that the word amant implies sexual intercourse.(except maybe in 17th century plays)

-----

But "amant" mainly deals with sexual intercourse, while "lover" can carry, at least partly, the meaning of love as a feeling.

this film (l'amant) was translated to 愛人／ラマン in japanese, which is the adulterous word again (which sounds like it fits with the plot of the film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lover_(film)

(i'm going to edit this here and say that while it was fun learning a bit more about french, i'm not going to be spending post after post on this word in french because it kind of defeats the point i was trying to make that translations don't dictate the meaning of the original text)

恋人 doesn't have these sort of connotations. but the french word is meant to inform you about the intended meaning of that?

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

the meaning(s) of the japanese word haven't suddenly changed just because france got a copy of this book now

To ask for clarification about things that might be confusing? Going to the creators seems like the best place to go for clarification.

when the english version of episode tifa was released, did the translators go to get clarification about cloud informing aerith's mother about her death? (despite her already knowing, which they would know if they familiarised themselves with the game it was based on.)

did no one ask for clarification when they made plot holes in ffxiii-2? ffxii? they didn't even give the rights away for those. they did it themselves and still messed up

 

[BlankBeat]

you're twisting my words around. i didn't say anything like 'it means both at the same time'. it can mean either of them.

So you now support the idea that things are left up to interpretation?

which only matters if you concern yourself with the french translation. and it's perfectly acceptable not to give it a second thought.

Yes. Let's just sweep official translations under the rug.

how you read the source material. but you're assuming what square's motives and intentions are, again. you assume a hell of a lot

I've already given evidence for why Cloud and Aerith would be considered "lovers" according to the source material. Obviously, you disagree with my evidence.

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means, which is what was debated prior to this book's release

The word can mean "beloved" or "lover". Obviously, official French translators that have been given the stamp of approval by SE, believe it means "lover". Therefore, because they do translating for their job and are trained in the field of translating, they lend credibility to the belief that "koibito" means "lover" as opposed to "beloved" in this context.

i don't know who you've seen saying it only means 'beloved' (unless they simply meant in this context/usage). c/t fans wouldn't want to do that i assume since it means they would lose nomura's 'koibito' quote

I'm pretty sure Ryu said it meant "beloved" only. And honestly, I have seen Cloti's argue it means "beloved" only. Can I locate the quotes at this exact moment? No. All I know is, it *HAS* been argued. But according to the official French translation, "koibito" cannot mean "beloved" only. It can only mean both "beloved" and "lover," or "lover" only.

i didn't think you would

foreign language dictionaries give you a gloss of what the word means. sometimes with notes on its nuances but sometimes not.

http://www.linternaute.com/dictionnaire/fr/definition/amant/
Partenaire sexuel d'une femme hors mariage (Sexual partner of a woman out of wedlock)

http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/amant/2670?q=amant#2663
Homme avec qui une femme a des relations sexuelles en dehors du mariage (Man with a woman who has sex outside of marriage)

dictionaries aren't perfect, and even monolingual ones might not tell you exactly how it's used in real life. according to these people, 'amant' in its modern sense is lover in the sense of adultery

Spoiler

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=158299


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2029020


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=812907


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=60744


this film (l'amant) was translated to 愛人／ラマン in japanese, which is the adulterous word again (which sounds like it fits with the plot of the film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lover_(film)

(i'm going to edit this here and say that while it was fun learning a bit more about french, i'm not going to be spending post after post on this word in french because it kind of defeats the point i was trying to make that translations don't dictate the meaning of the original text)

恋人 doesn't have these sort of connotations. but the french word is meant to inform you about the intended meaning of that?

amant: lover

Source: http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/amant

Are you saying official French translators don't know what "amant" means in a modern context?

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

But the Japanese word can mean either "beloved" or "lover". However, according to official translators in France (that have been given approval by SE), it means "lover". These official translators support the tranlastion of "koibito" as "lover" rather than "beloved".

the meaning(s) of the japanese word haven't suddenly changed just because france got a copy of this book now

The French translators aren't CHANGING the meaning of the word "koibito," they are simply ascribing one of the two meanings to it.

--------------------

Once again, where is your evidence that this ever happened? Where is Nojima or anyone at Square credited for consultation or anything other than owning the rights to it/its characters?

When the authors of fucking strategy guides are acknowledging by name the random people at Square who helped them when they had "to ask for clarification about things that might be confusing," you think something like this would fail to do the same? No, dude.

I'm just using common sense. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume official translators would seek out the creators to clarify things that might be confusing.

Besides, SE trusts this company to find translators and translate their work. Who knows...maybe SE has worked with this company before and liked their work? It's only logical to assume this company was thoroughly vetted before SE handed them the rights to CoT: White.

Because I haven't spent my 27 years on this Earth with my eyes closed and my ears covered. I've seen countless works with English translations that were originally in Japanese and I know what you're claiming doesn't go down.

lol k

Which is not the same thing as paying one of their own people to translate the damn thing themselves to make sure that someone else did the translation properly.

You didn't answer the question:

You don't think SE inquired about how a publishing company does their translations before giving them the rights?

Unless your "thoroughly vetting them" process includes a crystal ball, I'm pretty sure nobody was checking the translation.

Neither of us can be proven right or wrong on this.

It hasn't hurt them so far. Not that I think a number of their business practices have been smart either, but I think they probably know a little more about what they're doing as a business than either of us, seeing as they run a multi-million dollar business and we don't.

Scary to think SE would give the rights to a company without making sure they can be trusted.

Once a-fucking-gain:

"For the last time, I'm not talking about the 'koibito' quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge."

The reasoning I'm applying to that quote?

1. The source material supports it being translated as "lovers"
2. The official French translation also supports it being translated as "lovers"

Fact is, the French translation proves, IMO, that "koibito" cannot mean "beloved" only -- it has to also mean "lover" or "lover" only.

The French translators aren't CHANGING the meaning of the word "koibito," they are simply ascribing one of the two meanings to it.

 

[Strangelove]

So you now support the idea that things are left up to interpretation?

???////??/

???/

?

i support the idea that different interpretations of the japanese version of things aren't cancelled out by the existence of translations

Yes. Let's just sweep official translations under the rug.

sure, why not.

translations are good if you don't understand the language of the original. but that's it, that's their purpose.

if you don't know russian then read war and peace in english. but it's daft to say that this passage must mean this because that's what it says in english, if the original text has other meanings.

I've already given evidence for why Cloud and Aerith would be considered "lovers" according to the source material. Obviously, you disagree with my evidence.

i don't know what you mean by 'lovers'. you're saying in ffvii, before aerith died, she and cloud had a relationship that progressed to mutually expressed and acted on romance? (because 'lover' implies that you're both aware of this and it's acted on, you aren't 'lovers' just because you secretly like one another)

was there a sexual component to their relationship, as can be implicit in 'amant'?

I'm pretty sure Ryu said it meant "beloved" only. And honestly, I have seen Cloti's argue it means "beloved" only. Can I locate the quotes at this exact moment? No. All I know is, it *HAS* been argued.

i'm pretty sure i really don't care to see them anyway

But according to the official French translation, "koibito" cannot mean "beloved" only. It can only mean both "beloved" and "lover," or "lover" only.

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

amant: lover

Source: http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/amant

i gave a bunch of links but sure okay. your one french-english link will do.

you know how you can use 'lover' in english? to refer to someone's partner in an affair. maybe that's the 'lover' this is talking about (seeing as that's apparently how it's used in french now).

Are you saying official French translators don't know what "amant" means in a modern context?

maybe they misunderstood the relationship between cloud and aerith, like [multiple past official translators] did when they [made multiple translation errors in the past]

But the Japanese word can mean either "beloved" or "lover". However, according to official translators in France (that have been given approval by SE), it means "lover". These official translators support the tranlastion of "koibito" as "lover" rather than "beloved".

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

if that's how you want to read it, knock yourself out. but it doesn't have bearing on the original

The French translators aren't CHANGING the meaning of the word, they are simply ascribing one of the two meanings to it.

which has been ascribed to the french translations, and not every other version

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

(i thought i'd try this 'copy pasting responses' things)