The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[BlankBeat]

uh yeah...he says that Aerith doesn't even acknowledge that line by Cloud, like ever so.....

My point in mentioning that Aerith doesn't comment on it...

To Sprites and Tres:

I just wanted to say, Aerith does acknowledge Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon:

Aerith says, "I know, I know..."

And although she goes on to say that what she means is different, it's only because she's the last Cetra. But she does acknowledge that Cloud is there for her, despite not being able to relate to her Cetra heritage.

 

[BlankBeat]

???////??/

???/

?

i support the idea that different interpretations of the japanese version of things aren't cancelled out by the existence of translations

How does the French translation cancel out the Japanese meaning of the word? The French translation is ascribing a perfectly valid meaning to the word "koibito".

sure, why not.

lol

translations are good if you don't understand the language of the original. but that's it, that's their purpose.

The language of the original has two possible meanings, but the French only has one meaning. Therefore, the French lends creditability to which of the two meanings we are to apply to the original.

i don't know what you mean by 'lovers'. you're saying in ffvii, before aerith died, she and cloud had a relationship that progressed to mutually expressed and acted on romance? (because 'lover' implies that you're both aware of this and it's acted on, you aren't 'lovers' just because you secretly like one another)

Their relationship continued after disc 1.
CoT: White isn't just referring to disc 1.

was there a sexual component to their relationship, as can be implicit in 'amant'?

The screen fading to black at the end of their date.

i'm pretty sure i really don't care to see them anyway

k

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

The French translation is ascribing one of the two valid meanings to the word "koibito".

i gave a bunch of links but sure okay. your one french-english link will do.

Are you saying official French translators don't know what "amant" means in a modern context?

you know how you can use 'lover' in english? to refer to someone's partner in an affair. maybe that's the 'lover' this is talking about (seeing as that's apparently how it's used in french now).

Maybe. Maybe not.

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

The Japanese word can mean either "lover" or "beloved". The French translation can only mean "lover". Therefore, the French translation helps clarify which of the two meanings we should apply to the Japanese word.

if that's how you want to read it, knock yourself out. but it doesn't have bearing on the original

Yes. Only YOUR translations should be considered, but official translations by a company hired by SE should be ignored.

which has been ascribed to the french translations, and not every other version

But every other translation can also mean "lover".

what the french translations says has no bearing on what the japanese word means

The language of the original has two possible meanings, but the French only has one meaning. Therefore, the French lends creditability to which of the two meanings we are to apply to the original.

(i thought i'd try this 'copy pasting responses' things)

k

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^When I say "I know, I know..." it's more of a dismissal of what the other person is saying in the "I know that already, I don't need you to tell me" way. Just to put it out there that there are multiple ways of reading that sentence...

 

[BlankBeat]

^^When I say "I know, I know..." it's more of a dismissal of what the other person is saying in the "I know that already, I don't need you to tell me" way. Just to put it out there that there are multiple ways of reading that sentence...

She still acknowledges his line. Which is the point I'm making.

 

[Strangelove]

How does the French translation cancel out the Japanese meaning of the word? The French translation is ascribing a perfectly valid meaning to the word "koibito".

i'm not talking about the meaning, i'm saying it doesn't invalidate one interpretation just because one translation uses this word or another

The language of the original has two possible meanings, but the French only has one meaning. Therefore, the French lends creditability to which of the two meanings we are to apply to the original.

so again, japanese fans who had a more ambiguous text have to look up what translations released years later say in order to fully appreciate this piece of mainstream entertainment?

Their relationship continued after disc 1.
CoT: White isn't just referring to disc 1.

so at which part of the span of time where aerith was dead and separated from cloud did they become loves?

The screen fading to black at the end of their date.

is that acknowledgement that the highwind's fade to black meant sex?

The French translation is ascribing one of the two valid meanings to the word "koibito".

but it doesn't invalidate the other from the japanese one

Are you saying official French translators don't know what "amant" means in a modern context?

maybe they don't know the context of cloud and aerith's relationship

it wouldn't be the first time 'official translators' misunderstood something

The Japanese word can mean either "lover" or "beloved". The French translation can only mean "lover". Therefore, the French translation helps clarify which of the two meanings we should apply to the Japanese word.

so when square put out the ambiguous japanese book all those years ago, they were expecting fans in japan to wait for the french version to randomly get released so they could finally truly understand?

Yes. Only YOUR translations should be considered, but official translations by a company hired by SE should be ignored.

sorry i don't hold third party translations to such a high regard as you

i never said everyone should only consider my translations (i haven't even mentioned them), but then i acknowledge the limitations of my translations and only think of them as what they are: a means for people who don't understand the source language to enjoy material they otherwise wouldn't be able to. not as a guide on the one true way to interprete the original

The language of the original has two possible meanings, but the French only has one meaning. Therefore, the French lends creditability to which of the two meanings we are to apply to the original.

if you assume that's the purpose of translations

no one takes more liberties with translations than 'official translators'. they aren't just there to make a deathly faithful translation of the original, and that's probably more true of popular entertainment

the final scenes of lightning returns in english has an alteration that change the tone of the ending compared with the japanese version. but that doesn't change the fact that the japanese version was saying something different. that's not like ffxiii-2 where the translators (who are supposed to know the story and characters well but didn't notice the big inconsistency they created) seem to have just missed a bit of a word out. that had to have been done intentionally. are people meant to take what the english version says and change what they see is happening in the japanese version? (and this was square themselves putting this out there, not a third part book publisher in france, this was the version of the game they have released for most of the world). is the japanese version now incorrect because they 'endorsed' a completely different take on it?

square don't put these things out with the expectation that everyone is going to be looking everything up online or something to find out the true meaning. this is probably even more true for the japanese fans. when people say 'you can't say something is "canon" until there's an official english translation' (tho i guess french is good enough now), that implies that japanese fans are left without a clear answer until it's in english. which is fucking silly (and that apparently no one can understand multiple languages and accurately convey information from one to the next. unless of course someone is paying you to do so, in which case you're never wrong at all)

because you don't need translations to interpret the original, and whatever any translation does say means nothing on how you can read the original, which is complete on its own

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To Sprites and Tres:

I just wanted to say, Aerith does acknowledge Cloud's line in Cosmo Canyon:

Aerith says, "I know, I know..."

And although she goes on to say that what she means is different, it's only because she's the last Cetra. But she does acknowledge that Cloud is there for her, despite not being able to relate to her Cetra heritage.

What I said in the article, though, is that she doesn't comment on the implications of what he said.

I'm just using common sense. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume official translators would seek out the creators to clarify things that might be confusing.

You can call it "common sense" all you like, but the huge swaths of fans out there bitching about this official translation and that official translation over all the years that anime and the like have been imported demonstrate it is not common reality.

It is simply not. This is the inarguable truth and you need only consult any fandom of a Japanese composition on the Internet to see it.

You're demonstrating how out of touch you are with something you claim to be applying "common sense" to. And it's honestly sad. I'm feeling embarrassed for you just reading this nonsense.

lol k

Yes, just dismiss my list of extremely popular examples that prove you wrong with a "lol k." That doesn't sound at all like an obnoxious attempt to cover that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Which is not the same thing as paying one of their own people to translate the damn thing themselves to make sure that someone else did the translation properly.

You didn't answer the question:

You don't think SE inquired about how a publishing company does their translations before giving them the rights?

There isn't a question to be answered there. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and no one but you is trying to talk about that goddamn red herring.

What the hell is "how they do translations" even supposed to mean? Especially when you're claiming that someone from Square is sitting over the translator's shoulder doing their work for them anyway.

Stop this. I'm really sick of you coming in here to get people riled up with stuff like "French explains what Japanese means" that you know doesn't make sense and that you have no intention of ever trying to back up.

Unless your "thoroughly vetting them" process includes a crystal ball, I'm pretty sure nobody was checking the translation.

Neither of us can be proven right or wrong on this.

Yeah, unfortunately, that doesn't mean you get to pretend you are right when you have no evidence backing you and -- wait for it -- common sense saying that you're wrong since a) the sort of thing you're talking about pretty much never happens (again, long list of reality backing that up), b) the copyright page makes no mention of Nojima or anyone from Square being involved even while fucking strategy guide authors credit people from Square who answered their questions and c) the lead FF developer doesn't know how localization works.

Really, you've got nothing. You're wrong. You're being a troll at this point, and I'm tired of it.

If you can't provide concrete evidence of this claim, stop making it.

Scary to think SE would give the rights to a company without making sure they can be trusted.

Scary to think you're having that conversation with yourself since no one else is talking about it.

Once a-fucking-gain:

"For the last time, I'm not talking about the 'koibito' quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge."

The reasoning I'm applying to that quote?

1. The source material supports it being translated as "lovers"
2. The official French translation also supports it being translated as "lovers"

Fact is, the French translation proves, IMO, that "koibito" cannot mean "beloved" only -- it has to also mean "lover" or "lover" only.

The French translators aren't CHANGING the meaning of the word "koibito," they are simply ascribing one of the two meanings to it.

You know what, we're going to try this one more time:

"For the last time, I'm not talking about the 'koibito' quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge."

Talk about the "koibito" thing one more time in response to this, and it will also be taken as an admission to trolling. I'm serious. You will be doing so with full knowledge of what it means you're admitting to. You have the choice.

 

[Strangelove]

another thing

why is it cloud and tifa need to have an overt display to show they are a couple (they need a proposal or a biological child or something), but when it comes to aerith square are suddenly all about subtly and sophistication

(and 'i'm... we're there for you' is romance but 'i'll be there to remind you' and 'i've got you' is just something friends say, so subtly only applies if aerith is involved)

 

[Sprites]

Often wondered that myself Hito.

You know, there's a similar line said in FFIX from Zidane to Garnet said in Madain Sari:
Garnet asks Zidane why he came with her, his response
"Only because I wanted to go with you", they don't so much as confirm how they feel about one another in words either but you get that sense from the both of them that they've fallen for each other by this point and return eachothers feelings even if Garnet isn't as vocal about it as Zidane.

What Im trying to say is the line between Tifa and Cloud, the words are there and you get the sense of emotions between the characters, you don't need a grand physical gesture to understand what's going on.

 

[JayM]

Well it's as good a time as any to get involved again isn't it? I unlike Tres am kiiiiind of talking about this particular quote but I think both of my points extend to the wider translation argument as well.

First, I don't think BB is being deliberately obtuse. I had an experience recently in a local bookstore where I got to hear some fangirls complaining about the new translation of Sailor Moon; they dismissed the entire translation on the basis that one character's name had been romanized as "Demande" instead of Diamond/Diamonte/Diamonde. The villains all have jewel-themed names! they argued. Why wouldn't the translator have researched that! they argued.

Lemme tell you a thing. The new translation of Sailor Moon? Really not bad. Not great, but not one I'm going to complain about. The translator(s) did their job and did it ably. I don't think they deserve to be castigated for how they chose to romanize a single name. I don't think they're a "bad" translator/translation company. They just didn't have the same priorities as these particular fangirls.

And that's I think at the crux of all these translation arguments. BB. I don't mean to be a jerk. But I really don't think the translators care nearly as much as us LTDers about this particular issue. They're not focused on that. They're focused on getting the job done, making a big chunk of supplementary material available to a wider audience, many of whom don't even know what "LTD" stands for. Your arguments really only hold if you assume that the translators have the same priorities you do, i.e. illuminating the LTD for those fans who can't deal with the ambiguity of the Japanese language. It's like the Reunion Files quotes. As much words as we all spent on that "mother, sweetheart, ally in battle" mess? I'm going to guess the translator didn't lose any sleep about how to phrase that sentence in English. Because their top priority isn't the LTD.

So, that's the first thing I wanted to say.

The second is that y'know? Sometimes there isn't a good word. Sometimes you're translating and you really CAN'T pick something that has exactly the same nuance because the same nuance DOESN'T EXIST in the target language, or sounds so ridiculously awkward that you have to choose between an incomprehensible sentence or a sentence that loses some of the meaning.

I have no idea if that's the case with French because I don't speak a lick of French, and frankly I don't think one should argue about the nuances of a language one isn't at least slightly adept with. But I know this has been said before and I think it bears repeating. Translation is not an exact art. Sometimes you have to approximate, based on the language you have available and your own possibly-flawed understanding of the material. In other words: interpretation is often a BIG part of it!

So yeah basically all we've learned here is that someone (presumably) in France thinks that "amant" is a good French approximation of "koibito." You agree with the French translator(s), as do some others. That's cool. It's an interpretation. You're welcome to it. Doesn't change the original text.

...whew! I missed this place.

 

[BlankBeat]

i'm not talking about the meaning, i'm saying it doesn't invalidate one interpretation just because one translation uses this word or another

So you're saying it's still valid to view "koibito" as meaning "beloved" despite the French translation using "lover"?

so again, japanese fans who had a more ambiguous text have to look up what translations released years later say in order to fully appreciate this piece of mainstream entertainment?

If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, and the source material isn't obvious enough, then yes, they do.

so at which part of the span of time where aerith was dead and separated from cloud did they become loves?

I'd say they were unofficial lovers by the time she died, but lovers in the eyes of everyone else. IMO, they will eventually reunite together in their Promised Land that is within the lifestream, similar to Dyne and his wife, Eleanor.

is that acknowledgement that the highwind's fade to black meant sex?

Why would sex be the automatic assumption? Couldn't they have simply shared a kiss?

Regardless, both the date and the highwind scene fade to black. Cloud *WAVERS* between two heroines. Makes sense to me!

but it doesn't invalidate the other from the japanese one

The French translation gives credibility to interpreting "koibito" as "lover" rather than "beloved".

maybe they don't know the context of cloud and aerith's relationship

it wouldn't be the first time 'official translators' misunderstood something

Assumption.

so when square put out the ambiguous japanese book all those years ago, they were expecting fans in japan to wait for the french version to randomly get released so they could finally truly understand?

The source material should have made it obvious that "koibito" is to be viewed as "lover" rather than "beloved".

sorry i don't hold third party translations to such a high regard as you

Yeah. You'd rather take fan translations over official translations that are done by people that are trained in the field of translating, and have been given the go-ahead by Square Enix.

not as a guide on the one true way to interprete the original

If I'm going to take an educated position on which way to interpret the original Japanese text, using the official French translation is one of the tools I'd use.

if you assume that's the purpose of translations

The purpose is to let people who don't speak Japanese have access to the same information.

no one takes more liberties with translations than 'official translators'. they aren't just there to make a deathly faithful translation of the original, and that's probably more true of popular entertainment

Proof?

the final scenes of lightning returns in english has an alteration that change the tone of the ending compared with the japanese version. but that doesn't change the fact that the japanese version was saying something different. that's not like ffxiii-2 where the translators (who are supposed to know the story and characters well but didn't notice the big inconsistency they created) seem to have just missed a bit of a word out. that had to have been done intentionally. are people meant to take what the english version says and change what they see is happening in the japanese version? (and this was square themselves putting this out there, not a third part book publisher in france, this was the version of the game they have released for most of the world).

The final scenes of Lightning Returns in English CHANGED the tone of the ending. But the French translation didn't CHANGE the meaning of the word "koibito," it simply ascribed one of the two valid meanings to it. Your comparison is invalid.

is the japanese version now incorrect because they 'endorsed' a completely different take on it?

The French translation of "koibito" doesn't make the Japanese version incorrect, it simply ascribes one of the two valid meanings to it.

square don't put these things out with the expectation that everyone is going to be looking everything up online or something to find out the true meaning. this is probably even more true for the japanese fans. when people say 'you can't say something is "canon" until there's an official english translation' (tho i guess french is good enough now), that implies that japanese fans are left without a clear answer until it's in english.

If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, then yes, Japanese fans will need to look at other translations if they want to find out which of the two meanings to apply to the word "koibito".

because you don't need translations to interpret the original, and whatever any translation does say means nothing on how you can read the original, which is complete on its own

But the original has two interpretations. Therefore, using this official French translation is one way to determine which of the two interpretations is correct. Sure, "koibito" could still mean "beloved," but that's far less likely now that we have the official French translation.

--------------------

What I said in the article, though, is that she doesn't comment on the implications of what he said.

So? Just because she doesn't specifically comment on the implications, she still understands that he's there for her. Obviously, he can't be there for her in regards to her being the last Cetra, but she still understands that he's there for her. She says so. Besides, I'd say her behavior on the date suggests she understands the implications of his comment.

You can call it "common sense" all you like, but the huge swaths of fans out there bitching about this official translation and that official translation over all the years that anime and the like have been imported demonstrate it is not common reality.

It is simply not. This is the inarguable truth and you need only consult any fandom of a Japanese composition on the Internet to see it.

Errors can and do occur. But the French translation of "koibito" to "lover" isn't an error, it is simply ascribing one of the two valid meanings to it.

You're demonstrating how out of touch you are with something you claim to be applying "common sense" to. And it's honestly sad. I'm feeling embarrassed for you just reading this nonsense.

Thanks for feeling sad for me. I'm quite happy at the moment, however.

Yes, just dismiss my list of extremely popular examples that prove you wrong with a "lol k." That doesn't sound at all like an obnoxious attempt to cover that you have no clue what you're talking about.

I've never denied that errors can and do occur. But the French translation of "koibito" to "lover" isn't an error. How can it be an error if the French translation is using a perfectly valid meaning of the word "koibito"?

There isn't a question to be answered there. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and no one but you is trying to talk about that goddamn red herring.

What the hell is "how they do translations" even supposed to mean? Especially when you're claiming that someone from Square is sitting over the translator's shoulder doing their work for them anyway.

Stop this. I'm really sick of you coming in here to get people riled up with stuff like "French explains what Japanese means" that you know doesn't make sense and that you have no intention of ever trying to back up.

I will never believe SE gave the rights to a company they did not trust to do accurate translations. Sure, errors will always happen. But I will never believe SE knowingly gave the rights to a company they did not thoroughly investigate first.

You know what, we're going to try this one more time:

"For the last time, I'm not talking about the 'koibito' quote. I'm talking about the ridonculous reasoning you're applying to that quote and the implications it demands be applied to every other official translation -- a matter which you won't acknowledge."

Talk about the "koibito" thing one more time in response to this, and it will also be taken as an admission to trolling. I'm serious. You will be doing so with full knowledge of what it means you're admitting to. You have the choice.

I'm not sure how to divorce the reasoning I'm applying to the quote from the quote itself, because part of my reasoning has to do with the quote and what it says.

 

[BlankBeat]

That's cool. It's an interpretation. You're welcome to it. Doesn't change the original text.

It's an interpretation that thousands of people in France will read with Square Enix's logo on it. I guess French fans are all misinformed now! (joking...)

All I'm saying is that the French translators give credibility to the position that "koibito" should mean "lover" rather than "beloved". In other words, there's more credibility behind translating "koibito" to "lover" than "beloved" now that we have the official French translation.

 

[JayM]

All I'm saying is that the French translators give credibility to the position that "koibito" should mean "lover" rather than "beloved". In other words, there's more credibility behind translating "koibito" to "lover" than "beloved" now that we have the official French translation.

There's really not, though; that's the point the translation nerds have been trying to make to you. Koibito is koibito. Lover and beloved (and various other options) are all perfectly valid translations of that word on its own; it's up to the translator to determine from context how they're going to translate it. And each translator is going to come at the text with a different set of priorities and a different perspective, some of which will agree with yours and some of which won't.

If there was a footnote or a citation attached to the passage saying "oh btw guys I talked to the original author about this and explained to him the nuances of French since he doesn't speak it and he agreed 'amant' is more accurate to his idea than the Japanese language would allow" - THAT would add credence to "lover" being a "more accurate" translation.

Without something like that there's no reason to assume the French translators are coming at the text with any more information than you or I have. Translators are hired for their TRANSLATION skills, not their level of knowledge about the game or the metatext. The latter is great, but I guarantee you SE cares way more about the former.

I say again: literally all this translation does is show us that a professional French translator thinks 'amant' is a good approximation of 'koibito' in this instance. You can't even assume they put that much thought into it.

Do you have any experience with translation yourself?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Guys, seriously. BB has had this explained a whole freaking lot already. You guys might be willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'm absolutely certain that if he don't get it, its cause he don't wanna get it.

 

[BlankBeat]

Koibito is koibito.

So you are of the belief that SE wants to leave it up to interpretation how one views the word "koibito"?

If so, I've already stated why I believe the source material tells us that "lover" is the correct usage of "koibito":

From the very moment Cloud falls to Aerith Church, they spend a ton of one-on-one time together -- defeating the Turks, going to Aerith's house, sharing a date, and cross dressing to save Tifa. This set of events was meant to develop the romance between Cloud and Aerith. These events are also what led Cloud to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Then, their "world" continues to develop in the Shinra jail cell in-front of Tifa, they share a romantic moment in Cosmo Canyon by the fire, and a date at Gold Saucer takes place. Then, SE includes a marriage prediction, hinting to the gamer that Cloud and Aerith will probably get married. All of this was meant to create a mutual love between Cloud and Aerith so that when Sephiroth killed Aerith, it was that much more heartbreaking and shocking. Cloud's love interest would be the last person we'd expect to be killed off, and it wasn't just a friend who was killed, it was Cloud's potential wife.

Lover and beloved (and various other options) are all perfectly valid translations of that word on its own; it's up to the translator to determine from context how they're going to translate it.

And official translators in France determined, from the context, that it should be translated as "lover". Therefore, they lend credibility to the belief that "koibito" should be translated as "lover".

And each translator is going to come at the text with a different set of priorities and a different perspective, some of which will agree with yours and some of which won't.

I agree. But the translators in France are (hopefully) un-bias and simply doing what they are trained to do.

If there was a footnote or a citation attached to the passage saying "oh btw guys I talked to the original author about this and explained to him the nuances of French since he doesn't speak it and he agreed 'amant' is more accurate to his idea than the Japanese language would allow" - THAT would add credence to "lover" being a "more accurate" translation.

If SE didn't want the word "amant" officially applied to their work, they shouldn't have given the rights away.

Translators are hired for their TRANSLATION skills, not their level of knowledge about the game or the metatext. The latter is great, but I guarantee you SE cares way more about the former.

We'll never know if these translators do or don't have knowledge of the game or the metatext. Obviously, SE trusts this company to hire a third party to do their translations. Bottom line is...SE put their logo on this piece of work. They sold the rights to a company they trust. Therefore, this translation is official whether SE was directly involved or not. Their logo is on a book that includes the word "amant". It's official.

I say again: literally all this translation does is show us that a professional French translator thinks 'amant' is a good approximation of 'koibito' in this instance. You can't even assume they put that much thought into it.

And I'll take the word of a professional French translator over a fan translation.

Do you have any experience with translation yourself?

Nope. That's why I put trust in official French translators that have SE's logo on their work.

 

[Ryushikaze]

We're really back to Argumentatum ad translation in a language you don't even speak?

BB, if you aren't a troll, and I will be honest, I have very little reason to suspect you aren't, then you are so desperate to see your ship validated that you have thrown all common sense to the window.

I'll try having a response to your post to me soon.

 

[BlankBeat]

BB, if you aren't a troll, and I will be honest, I have very little reason to suspect you aren't, then you are so desperate to see your ship validated that you have thrown all common sense to the window.

My ship has been validated since 1997.

Anyway -- if SE didn't want "amant" officially applied to their work, they shouldn't have sold the rights. But they did. So "amant" is every bit as valid as "koibito".

I'll try having a response to your post to me soon.

Can't wait!

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Ahh noo I didn't mean to try to make out imply that BB was involved in the Ultimania stuff, or that Zidane/Garnet didn't reciprocate feelings/aren't canon or anything sorry

Spoiler

 

[Ryushikaze]

My ship has been validated since 1997.

Sorry, but Tifa's the one Cloud has family, future, and love for. And the only one Cloud ever opened his heart to.

Anyway -- if SE didn't want "amant" officially applied to their work, they shouldn't have sold the rights. But they did. So "amant" is every bit as valid as "koibito".

Dycedarg is Dycedarg's elder brother then.
Seriously, your arguments just get stupider and stupider.
HOWEVER, since you WANT to insist that Amant solidies the usage of Koibito as Lover rather than Beloved, you still have to deal with Tifa's role in the world being someone's lover. The only person with whom she could be a lover in narrative being Cloud.

Can't wait!

Well, no point since you flounced the forum after your thread suspension.

 

[Strangelove]

So you're saying it's still valid to view "koibito" as meaning "beloved" despite the French translation using "lover"?

yes, because what the french translation says doesn't mean anything when you're interpreting the japanese version. i've said that a bunch of times

If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, and the source material isn't obvious enough, then yes, they do.

and if no french translation was released? if no translation was ever released? they're doomed to wallow in uncertainty forever?

the original version is complete on its own (even if it is ambiguous in places, because that's not a problem), it doesn't need a translation to make it whole.

I'd say they were unofficial lovers by the time she died, but lovers in the eyes of everyone else. IMO, they will eventually reunite together in their Promised Land that is within the lifestream, similar to Dyne and his wife, Eleanor.

well, that's all you're ~opinion~ i guess. what exactly are 'unofficial lovers'?

Why would sex be the automatic assumption? Couldn't they have simply shared a kiss?

sex is the assumption because did you read what you were replying to?

me: was there a sexual component to their relationship, as can be implicit in 'amant'?
you: The screen fading to black at the end of their date.

your reply to this, about sexual connotations (because of the adulterous connotations of 'amant'), was to bring up the date ending with a fade to black. now you're asking why sex is assumed when the scene fades to black

you really need to stop doing this, where you lead a conversation in another direction then act surprised that's where it ended up

The French translation gives credibility to interpreting "koibito" as "lover" rather than "beloved".

not even going to copy my reply this time

Assumption.

of course it is, that's why i put 'maybe'. i'm not say that's fact.

what do you call 'someone at square who knows french and japanese will have looked over the manuscript' despite there being no evidence anyone did? because you've been bannering that around with impunity so far

Yeah. You'd rather take fan translations over official translations that are done by people that are trained in the field of translating, and have been given the go-ahead by Square Enix.

i personally don't take fan translations over official ones??

i just read them in japanese and take that over translations??

you act like any criticism of official translations is tantamount to saying 'all and every official translation is worthless and should be disregarded' or something. but it's not. they're fine most of the time, just not perfect 100% of the time. in which case you look at the original.

If I'm going to take an educated position on which way to interpret the original Japanese text, using the official French translation is one of the tools I'd use.

are you saying people who don't take the french translation are using an 'uneducated position'?

maybe the most educated position would be to look at the original language the text was actually written in. the one the actual author wrote it in.

i'll let that sink in for a minute

The purpose is to let people who don't speak Japanese have access to the same information.

why are you telling me this that's literally what i already said to you

you're the one saying that japanese fans should wait for things to be translated before they can fully understand them, because translations are apparently meant to tell people how they should read the original version

Proof?

experience? i've seen enough examples of it? i'm sure other people have probably seen more since i don't usually actively go looking at translations any more

one of the things anime and manga fans who use fan subs and scans like better about them (excluding 'it's free') is the fact that they are seen to be more faithful and closer to the original than the officially licensed versions. they think it's more authentic, and are less likely to change things like cultural references into american things. they think that because it's fans doing the work, there's more love and respect going into it than with a company hired to do the work who just wants to turn a profit and aim for the widest audience possible.

which in some cases isn't true, and the average fan might not have the ability to judge which is more accurate. but it's not like it never happens. that's why they started released 'uncut' versions, because people complained about this practice.

professional translation/localisation for a mass market isn't about making a literal and faithful rendition about the original, but about making a product the company believes will have the most appeal in their market. even if that means changing things. sometimes for censorship or cultural reasons, other times just because they think that's what is better for their intended audience

just going back to square, ffxiii used 'the maker' instead of the more direct 'god', the aforementioned changes to lightning returns' ending, changing the ages of characters in bravely default

(before you bring up the 'koibito' quote again, this isn't about that quote. this is about officially licensed translations taking liberties. which is what i said before, and what you were asking for proof of)

have you ever heard of the game 'chaos wars'? the developer who made that gave the localisation rights to some small company who proceeded to make one of the worst dubs ever made, mainly because the ceo just seemed to get his family to do the voices. sometimes companies just sell the rights and don't really care. like all those anime companies who sell the rights to america where they make dubs that hack the story up. is that how the original creators wanted their show to be viewed, rather than the way they made it? i mean, they sold the rights to these companies. some are more picky about it, but others just seem to let things happen.

it's not like square have shown much interest in bringing the novels to the west. they have dozens of them for a bunch of games, some of which add backstory to the games. yet so far all they've done is release this one book, years after the release of both the novel and the film it was meant to accompany, in europe. they really don't seem that concerned about them, they're more of an afterthought


now can i get some proof that square actually took the time to look over and 'approve' the novel translations, and didn't just sell the rights and leave it at that?

The final scenes of Lightning Returns in English CHANGED the tone of the ending. But the French translation didn't CHANGE the meaning of the word "koibito," it simply ascribed one of the two valid meanings to it. Your comparison is invalid.

'beloved' and 'lovers' are different in implication. 'beloved' is describing aerith's feelings, but doesn't specify exactly what their relationship is. 'lovers' locks it in as a relationship that has advanced to the point of a mutually expressed and recognised romantic relationship. (cloud being described as unaware of aerith's feelings, even on their date, doesn't sound like they both recognise this.)

a relationship which apparently square decided to keep vague (because everyone needs to use the french translation to understand it) until they released a book that's like 5 years old in france just now

(unless you want to believe that 'amant' is informing us that aerith was already in a relationship with someone and took cloud as a lover on the side, which is a ~perfectly valid meaning~ of 'amant')

The French translation of "koibito" doesn't make the Japanese version incorrect, it simply ascribes one of the two valid meanings to it.

to the french version. nothing else

i guess i missed the part of school where everyone pulls out the french translations (that they can't even understand) of shakespeare in order to properly understand what the english version means

If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, then yes, Japanese fans will need to look at other translations if they want to find out which of the two meanings to apply to the word "koibito".

that is fucking ridiculous i'm sorry

you're saying square expects people who don't even know these languages to go search out what these translations say, because the original book they released wasn't good enough or something

But the original has two interpretations. Therefore, using this official French translation is one way to determine which of the two interpretations is correct. Sure, "koibito" could still mean "beloved," but that's far less likely now that we have the official French translation.

you're right, it is one way. but it's by no means the most valid (especially since you're cherry picking the french translation over the german one just because the french one says what you want to hear)

 

[Celes Chere]

another thing

why is it cloud and tifa need to have an overt display to show they are a couple (they need a proposal or a biological child or something), but when it comes to aerith square are suddenly all about subtly and sophistication

(and 'i'm... we're there for you' is romance but 'i'll be there to remind you' and 'i've got you' is just something friends say, so subtly only applies if aerith is involved)

"I think about Aerith a lot" = love

"I want to start a new life with Tifa" = something friends say all the time

 

[Strangelove]

"I think about Aerith a lot" = love

"I want to start a new life with Tifa" = something friends say all the time

i'm going to need to see french references for this before i can believe or understand them

 

[Ryushikaze]

i'm going to need to see french references for this before i can believe or understand them

French? That's not good enough. Too many people speak it. Give me Official Esperanto translations or I won't believe a word of it. EVERYONE knows that the only way to understand Japanese is to translate it into Esperanto.

 

[Dashell]

I'm on vacation for a week and a half and I check this topic and see the only Clerith got banned. You guys just can't get along without me, huh?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm just going to leave this here and walk away:
http://thelifestream.net/items-of-i...with-french-on-the-way-to-a-smile-translator/

 

[Dashell]

TLS: How were you chosen for this project? Did Square Enix provide any support to you during the translation process or a means of contacting the auteur of the original prose, Kazushige Nojima?

I like how this question wasn't really answered


but yeah... talking to the guy who DID the translation... why didn't I think of that?