The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Lex]

That is why Cécile Pournin at Lumen chose me for this new FF translation.

Seems like a firm "no" to me.

 

[Dashell]

OH ... so Cécile Pournin from Lumen chose them, not Nojima... I get it... I guess I was still hoping for a "But no I never talked to Nojima" so we don't get, "But he didn't say he DID NOT talk to him" or something

An interesting interview though, I kinda wish it was a bit longer. It'd be nice to know a little more about the process but... maybe that's for another time

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel that Mademoiselle Sénaux's earlier comment that Monsieur Mory's "expertise in the FF world was invaluable" and his own response to the question ("I had a pretty good vision of what was expected for our French readers") is a clear "no." I mean, they saw the question, but she only mentions Mory helping her, and he said that he felt well-versed enough in FF to adequately provide assistance.

I think that's straightforward.

 

[Sprites]

Makes for interesting reading

 

[Onion Knight]

I'm just going to leave this here and walk away:
http://thelifestream.net/items-of-i...with-french-on-the-way-to-a-smile-translator/

In other words the books were licensed by a company unrelated to Square-Enix, and the translators had no input from Nojima on how to translate any of it and instead had to go with their own gut feeling.

Maybe its because I'm an anime/manga fan, and I'm used to mistranslations, or the translators simply being unable to properly depict the nuance of the language, and choosing instead to do something simple, that can change the meaning completely, especially because they don't have creator input as to how to correctly interpret the words. But I seriously thought that this was common sense.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks for the interview

If nothing else they seem unbiased at least, well the main translator/Cécile anyway

 

[I Am Not Me]

I've been away for a while and I come back to find that the debate is still about 'koibito'? Just in another language?

I've grown into legality and you people are still talking about the same thing you were when I first got here 5 years ago.

When will it end?

another thing

why is it cloud and tifa need to have an overt display to show they are a couple (they need a proposal or a biological child or something), but when it comes to aerith square are suddenly all about subtly and sophistication

(and 'i'm... we're there for you' is romance but 'i'll be there to remind you' and 'i've got you' is just something friends say, so subtly only applies if aerith is involved)

I think we have all asked this multiple times before in the older threads (just in different words) and have never received a response.

I'm actually very interested in a well thought-out, logical response to this.

But I think, if I were to try to look into this with their point of view, it's because Aerith is dead, which means all they have to go with are precisely just subtle hints and what-have-yous, while Tifa is alive and both had all the chances to do the deed on-screen like bad smut fanfiction and have lots of black-haired children called Zack Jr.--yet SE chose not to show us that.

...this reasoning sort of works if you ignore all the subtle hints that pointed to Tifa as the one Cloud has always been interested in, including the not-so-subtle "I wanted you to notice me, Tifa-sempai" bit.

 

[Onion Knight]

I've been away for a while and I come back to find that the debate is still about 'koibito'? Just in another language?

I've grown into legality and you people are still talking about the same thing you were when I first got here 5 years ago.

When will it end?



I think we have all asked this multiple times before in the older threads (just in different words) and have never received a response.

I'm actually very interested in a well thought-out, logical response to this.

But I think, if I were to try to look into this with their point of view, it's because Aerith is dead, which means all they have to go with are precisely just subtle hints and what-have-yous, while Tifa is alive and both had all the chances to do the deed on-screen like bad smut fanfiction and have lots of black-haired children called Zack Jr.--yet SE chose not to show us that.

...this reasoning sort of works if you ignore all the subtle hints that pointed to Tifa as the one Cloud has always been interested in, including the not-so-subtle "I wanted you to notice me, Tifa-sempai" bit.

But that's still a double standard, as using that same reasoning, we could point out the fact that Cloud is sleeping with another woman, and raising children with with her as a nuclear family unit with the only mention of Aerith being in the context of guilt over her death and not any worse than anyone else to mean that Cloud isn't in love with Aerith either, after all its really Tifa who brings it up not Cloud.

Either way, it still makes Cloud out to be a total d*ck, because it would mean that he is taking advantage of Tifa's love for him, for sex and for a free room, and getting her hopes up, even though he knows how she feels about him (both High and low affection versions of the HW scene lets us know this) and not allowing her to move on.

And if they think that Cloud is such an heartless a$$hole, then it just makes me think that they secretly really don't like Aerith, because why would you want a character you actually like to be with a jerk like that?

Its the same kind of argument that I've seen made by another certain ship in Macross Frontier, and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would think this. Someone please explain the logic to me?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, since there seems to be some confusion about this, I want to clarify that the interview I linked to above should not be taken to mean that the translators or the French On the Way to a Smile translation is unreliable. Obviously, this woman and her colleague are skilled, educated and good at what they do.

My only intention in posting the link was to finalize the debate I was having with BlankBeat about how unlikely it is for anyone at Square Enix (or any IP owner) to be actively involved with an official foreign translation licensed to another publisher, and, thus, that such translations should not be looked to as clarifying or overriding the original text. That was the whole of my intent: To prove those points and those points only. Not anything related to the credibility of the translators or the reliability of their work.

Mademoiselle Sénaux and Monsieur Mory are obviously as credible and reliable as anyone who could have been chosen for this role. I don't know French well enough to even attempt a study of the whole book, but I'm definitely not trying to say that they or their work here should not be trusted.

I'm not even actually disagreeing with their translation for "koibito" here, nor whether it reflects the intent of the author. It's correct. I do think that "amant" was a slightly odd choice, but not wrong. We all know "koibito" is a squirmy word, and a translation of it meaning "lover" is fine with me. More importantly, I imagine it would be fine with Nojima. I think he meant for "koibito" to be taken as a reflection of mutual romantic feelings when he wrote it, and we know that those feelings existed between the characters in the narrative. "Amant" does convey that.

The only reason I even say that the word is an odd choice is because I think "amoreux" would have fit better. Both mean "lover," but the second one relates more to being in love. Apparently the first is used most commonly to refer to lovers in cases of infidelity, as a synonym of "paramour," so it's still a little odd. It would be a bit like using 愛人/aijin instead of 恋人/koibito. Both "ai" and "koi" mean love," so both of these words essentially mean "lover," but "aijin" has come to be associated with infidelity while "koibito" implies more a sense of being in love. Basically, it would be like calling someone "mistress" in English instead of "girlfriend." They're still lovers, but "mistress" has that connotation of infidelity while the other implies more a sense that they're in love.

That's my only gripe with "amant." Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with it. And it probably won't even cause any confusion for French readers. Anyone who reads On the Way to a Smile probably already knows FFVII, so they will know it's not meant the bad way anyway.

For anyone who misunderstood my intention, I apologize. Please do not think poorly of the translators because of me. That will make me feel absolutely awful. That's not what I intended. They're both clearly well-qualified and Mme. Sénaux is fucking amazing to have translated that whole book in just three months.

 

[Dashell]

I don't know why people were saying it was an attempt to discredit them in the first place. I mean, if anything, you've boosted their credit. It's obvious they know what they're doing. I agree about amant though. It does seem to be an odd choice but I'm sure the translators had their reasons. I remember hearing some French fans were upset about it because of the negative connotations, but maybe the word is just changing. Words change all the time and this might be the case here.

Then again I don't speak French so maybe I'm in no position to say that

 

[I Am Not Me]

But that's still a double standard, as using that same reasoning, we could point out the fact that Cloud is sleeping with another woman, and raising children with with her as a nuclear family unit with the only mention of Aerith being in the context of guilt over her death and not any worse than anyone else to mean that Cloud isn't in love with Aerith either, after all its really Tifa who brings it up not Cloud.

Either way, it still makes Cloud out to be a total d*ck, because it would mean that he is taking advantage of Tifa's love for him, for sex and for a free room, and getting her hopes up, even though he knows how she feels about him (both High and low affection versions of the HW scene lets us know this) and not allowing her to move on.

And if they think that Cloud is such an heartless a$$hole, then it just makes me think that they secretly really don't like Aerith, because why would you want a character you actually like to be with a jerk like that?

Its the same kind of argument that I've seen made by another certain ship in Macross Frontier, and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would think this. Someone please explain the logic to me?

Welcome to the LTD.

Cloud will always be the asshole in most arguments where Cloti is being deemed "uncanon" because he knows what she feels about him and yet still continues living with her, smiling at her, and talking about a future with her. Way to go, Cloud.

In fact, I really can't think of an anti-Cloti argument where Cloud isn't at least implied to be a total self-absorbed asshat, especially when we know all the facts...

 

[skyrise]

another thing

why is it cloud and tifa need to have an overt display to show they are a couple (they need a proposal or a biological child or something),

Well at least we can tick out the sex? They got that one out of the way with canon colors.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

This is for Glenn

Spoiler

and this is for hito

Spoiler

Just thought you guys could use this show of support

 

[Strangelove]

why what's happened

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oooh, I bet some pinkers have been shit talking them from the safety of pink hell or somewhere like that.

All they have is Ad Homs now, ain't it?

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Ripping of shreds, and baying for blood, and gnashing of teeths. Out for your blooods

 

[Ⓐaron]

To be fair, this isn't exactly a new development

 

[Strangelove]

i'm struggling to figure out why that would be happening now because i haven't done anything for months

 

[Ⓐaron]

You responded to BlankBeat a few times

 

[Octo]

nnh I'm curious now....but we do not talk about fight club...

 

[Strangelove]

You responded to BlankBeat a few times

i cannot overstate my regret for that decision

 

[Ⓐaron]

I can't think of any other possible outcome for that course of action than regret

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm more confused than curious. I don't know what there is to be mad about.

Whatever the case, I don't who is saying what, but the last time I spoke with Blank, Cali and Anastar, we had reached an understanding and were on good terms, so I hope they will vouch for us and clarify anything that may be misunderstood.

For what it's worth, I get why the French translation is a big deal to them, or why any official translation might be for any fandom. When you don't know a language or other specialized topic, expert/professional testimony has an appeal despite potential shortcomings here and there (e.g. time constraints, less priority on certain passages from the translator than a fan might have, etc.). Not that there's really a problem with this translation anyway.

That expert appeal is just an undeniable reality, and usually for good enough reason. That's why court proceedings use them.

 

[Splintered]

This is going to be an odd request, but wasn't there a quote by the creators that said that both Tifa and Aerith were the main female protagonists? I know I've seen it around and I've seen it referenced but I'm trying to find the exact source. Thanks. (loltumblr)

 

[Strangelove]

i remember a quote saying they were both heroines which i think was in the anniversary Ultimania interview on the main site

so maybe that one?