Disclaimer:
1.) I'm not even sure why we're still talking to this person
2.) That's about it really
Chantara said:
Dreamstar has tried to join this forum in order to post more detail about what her friend said, but she keeps getting a message saying that she doesn’t have permission to post. She’s also tried to contact a staff member (not sure which one), but never got any answer.
If this Dreamstar person you speak of keeps at it, eventually the mods will take care of it. Have no fear of that.
Secondly, another member of the CloudxAerith forum asked her Japanese sensei about the meaning of the phrase, and this is what her sensei said:
Still loving how you call these people sensei. It doesn't look totally strange in context and is a totally valid means of giving your words more weight /sarcasm
Another Member of a Different Forum said:
I went to my Japanese lesson today and I spoke with my Sensei about the quote and that phrase you're debating the "romantic-ness" of. She said to me that the kanji used for "omou" (‘z‚¤[FONT="]jis quite deep. It means deep[/FONT] thoughts/feelings (It's pronounced the same way as the normal word for "thought" in Japanese, but that reading you use for sort of normal things like "I think this food is a bit hot" (lolisooriginal)), whereas this way of writing it means something much more deep. However, it is not always romantic.
Hey look guys, this looks like it could be the new koibito. A word that refers to deep feelings that we would naturally believe are love but doesn't always have to indicate that. This oughta be good.
She read the phrase as "exchanging/relating back and forth ideas/thoughts" so the "Exchange feelings" thing is more or less right. I asked her if the romance of it is based on context, and she said yes. So yesh, the phrase's romance is only romantic based on context, the phrase is not a romantic one on its own unless romance is backing it - which is what this debate is about. XD
The context of the Compilation, creator interviews and statements, and the Ultimanias shows it to be romantic. Just about all language requires context from other words or visuals to make any sort of sense, you know. If I suddenly just shouted "Chicken!" would you know what I was talking about for certain? Or would you need more context/to actually see a tasty fowl before you'd be sure?
Plus, I asked the same expert who answered you at allexperts.com about whether one could determine whether or not Cloud and Tifa had a romantic relationship on the basis of that phrase/sentence alone or whether you had to use the context of the story. The expert said that he would rely on the context of the story:
You really do not know how context works do you?
Chantara said:
So we have three sources now saying that you cannot judge on the basis of those sentences alone,
Which no one in their right mind would ask them to do, going on the importance of context into giving words and sentences their genuine meanings.
and that the context of the story must be used in order to determine whether or not they are involved in a romantic relationship.
Which is how communication works. Context is always important. And guess what context tells us?
Given that there have been no words or actions in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively indicates that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa,
Cloud has Tifa in a way that is kind of different from how he's always had her. They moved in together to raise a family. Have been identified as belonging together and having a future together. Plenty of context after the HW scene indicates romance between them.
then the context of the story does not prove romance between them. As I’ve said before, it’s left up to interpretation.
Yes, you say that a lot. Who're you trying to convince again, us or yourself?
Then it’s possible for two people to live together and start a family without being in love with each other.
No one ever claimed otherwise.
Tifa was taking care of Marlene for Barret when she lived in the 7th Heaven in Midgar. Did that mean Tifa and Barret were in love?
Going back to the well with the TifaXBarret again? So predictable, its sad really. And not worthy of being dignified with a response yet again, but I'm gonna do it anyway just to say "NO!"
Were Shera and Cid in love at the time they were living together and Avalanche first got to Rocket Town?
Well its pretty clear Shera had a thing for Cid, and that Cid (awesome as hell though he may be) was being a total assbag by both not noticing and by treating her like crap the entire time. And now they're a couple, so... yeah not the best example for you to use there.
I’m afraid those are only your opinions based on how you see the story.
I read what folks say in here Annie. The only one espousing opinions as if they were facts here lately has been you.
1) Blushing around someone doesn’t mean that you’re in love with them.
And yet love and attraction are common reasons for people to blush both in and out of fiction, which is what was being conveyed to you.
2) You don’t have 7 quotes of romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa. I know you think you do, but you don’t - I’ve discussed that in more detail in prior posts.
Yes, they have been shown to be quotes of romantic feelings. Your refusal to accept that and your hunt for a means of invalidating said quotes fails as hard as everything else you try to do in this debate and you need new tactics. We've discussed THAT in detail in prior posts
3) Saying two people belong together doesn’t automatically mean they’re in love.
Given the context, yes it bloody does. Even without context, this is the meaning of "They belong together" a goodly many people will assume. The use of that phrase without love being involved is the unusual one, the different circumstance that genuinely REQUIRES context to be understood correctly.
Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge remain together in the lifestream, so I’d say they belong together, too – but they’re just friends.
Of course YOU would say that, its what YOU want to hear. Its never been said that way in the Comp or related materials, so no. Just no. It is not the same as Tifa/Cloud.
4) Nojima wasn’t speaking about Cloud and Tifa when he mentioned love and marriage.
Oh you asked him directly? I had no idea you were so well connected, well while you're at it could you ask him why he decided Don Corneo is still alive? That's really bugging people and... oh you're just pulling things out of your ass again and ignoring what the man actually said to get your preferred conclusion. Nevermind.
He was referring to his own ideas about love and marriage – we’ve discussed that before.
And during that discussion I am sure SOMEONE pointed out, many times, that its retarded as hell to assume that he just went off on a tangent about that in the middle of an interview about an unrelated subject. But no, Anastar, he specifically said he tried not to get into his thoughts/feelings on love and marriage IN THE COURSE OF WRITING CoT and then gives a self-deprecating laugh indicating that he feels he FAILED. Failed, as in yes those ideas about love and marriage are present in the story about Cloud and Tifa.
5) Cloud didn’t say he wants Tifa in a different way than before. He only said that what he means is kind of different.
Thank you for the prime example of how even a complete sentence becomes meaningless when divorced from its context. What he means is kind of different. What he said first is that he can succeed this time because he HAS TIFA WITH HIM. Tifa responded that he had ALWAYS HAD HER. And what he means is KIND OF DIFFERENT from how he always had her. See how big a difference context makes? How entirely necessary it is? Without context "What I mean is kind of different" is a meaningless string of words since it doesn't tell you what the norm was before things got different. With the context, it clearly and concisely shows that Cloud has Tifa in a way different from mere friendship, which is how he'd always had her.
And how do you know she was talking about Avalanche instead of Cloud, Denzel, and Marlene? The other members of Avalanche weren’t there at the time – only Cloud and Marlene were there.
I'm sorry but what? You take so long in forming a reply these days I genuinely forget what you're talking about. I think I'll just let this one slide over to its intended recipient without further comment.
In the first place, from what Cloud says in the new novella, it seems that SE considers Barret to be part of the family, too.
I keep hearing you say this, and I keep seeing nothing backing that up.
I’d like to point out that all of your evidence about Barret not being part of the family has been incorrect.
Based on what again?
If you can be incorrect about Barret being part of the family, then you can be incorrect about a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa being canon.
We've said this before Annie: Just because something CAN be does not mean it WILL be or IS presently. You could secretly be a man, for instance. That is entirely possible from my perspective, what with the internet and all. Doesn't mean you ARE, and all evidence provided shows you to be female.
Also, you're still not backing up anything regarding us being wrong about Barret's familial status. So no u.
In the second place, Marlene invites Cloud into a family that already exists before he joins it. What Marlene says is this:
We've already heard this. You can say the sky is falling 1,000 times in a row but that won't make it true.
Case of Tifa said:
“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)
You still fail to see this for what it is. Marlene being a sweet kid and being cute to break the obvious tension that came upon Cloud and Tifa when they realized what they were getting into/how it reinforced their altered relationship status. They'd JUST become more than friends under the Highwind, and here they are already becoming parents. TENSION! And so Marlene steps in to soothe everyone because she's a good kid.
Chantara said:
]Marlene says that the family already exists before she invites Cloud into it.
I remember Marlene being the first one to describe them as a family, with her being a good child of said family. Never once did she indicate the family already existed. Deal with it already would ya?
In fact, it sounds to me like Marlene is referring to herself, Tifa and Barret as the family that Cloud gets invited into.
No one cares (in terms of this debate, I'm sure someone is interested in some capacity) what it sounds like to you unless you can back it up with something a little more concrete than that.
Seven quotes which supposedly prove that Barret’s not part of the family,
I might be confused here, I remember the quotes that came in a group of seven proving that the HW scene was romantic/that the HA version happened. I might've missed something though.
Barret still lives and travels alone and is not a member of the nuclear family though, as it HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED as consisting of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel.
but the new novella indicates that Barret is part of the family.
Does it now? I'll wait to hear more of that from Hito when his translation project gets that far along rather than take your word for it either way, you understand. But the only person I've heard squat about this from is you Annie, and I know you don't read Japanese, so I do need to ask... how do you know?
Reminds me of the seven quotes you keep using about the HW scene. If your evidence about Barret being part of the family is wrong, then it’s possible that your evidence about Cloud and Tifa being a canon couple is wrong.
All things are possible. Not all things are likely. Odds are well in favor of you being wrong, rather than us.
Denzel is thinking in CoD about who he wants to thank, not about who’s in his family. Denzel doesn’t have reason to thank Barret, so there’s no reason for Denzel to think of him at that time.
If Barret is family then you'd think he'd cross Denzel's mind at least briefly. The guy did save his dumb-kid life from charging headlong into a giant summoned dragon's smashing range ya know. Barret then proceeded to fight said dragon as it actively destroyed the town said kid lived in. That deserves a thanks if anything does. Oh, and on that note... if Barret is part of the 7th Heaven family you'd really think Denzel would know who the fuck he is upon meeting him wouldn't you?
Well ok, you might not because it goes against what you want. But rational folks would.
Does this mean you only want to talk about opinions when they’re your opinions?
I for one want you to knock of the opinion crap altogether. Post facts, argue facts. Cite them. Document them. For most of the people here, I like to see and hear their opinion, labeled as such, mixed in with their real arguments. It interests me. But you? That's essentially all you ever do, aside from quote mines and other such fallacies. No, gotten kinda tired of even hearing the WORD opinion when its related to you Anastar, both in terms of what you say and what you accuse others of. But that might just be me.
Good. So please stop using the “family” as evidence that Cloud and Tifa are romantically involved.
No. Because it is still an indicator of such. They are raising kids together as parents, not just as guardians. Denzel is, for all intents and purposes, THEIR ADOPTED SON. If that was all we had, I'd tell everyone to stfu right along with ya, but sadly for you that's only a fraction of the real evidence.
Those 7 out of 8 quotes only prove your point in your opinion – I’ve given you evidence that they don’t prove your point.
No offense intended, but when you claim to have provided evidence of something and multiple people get a confused look and want to ask "Really, where?" you're probably doing it wrong. And no, you have yet to prove that those quotes do not prove what you don't want them to prove. Prove!
And remember – in your opinion, seven quotes also showed that Barret’s not part of the family when he really is.
No, he's not.
Trouble is, the FTOIL page only says under the HW scene that their feelings match.
Feelings discussed on a page titled "For The One I Love" I described to match. That'd be mutual romantic love, in this case. No trouble so far, except for you.
The only place it says “love” is at the top of the page – it’s never said in reference to the HW scene itself.
Wow. Reeeeeally reaching now. The page is about love. Ergo, that part about Cloud and Tifa's matching feelings is about love. See, context! It is the true god of communication, it is.
Therefore, in my opinion, the FTOIL page is saying that the feelings match in both versions of the HW scene, but that the scene is optional. Therefore, it’s possible for Cloud and Tifa to confirm two different feelings under the HW – either love or friendship, depending on which version of the HW scene you get. Makes sense to me, since the picture is labeled as an optional scene and it only says that their “feelings match” without actual reference to love.
And you've yet to provide any concrete backing for this opinion. Please do that, or stop harping about this. Nothing is confirmed in the LA version aside from a need to get some sleep. All the confirmation is in the HA version. Confirmation of mutual feelings is specified to have happened. A simple chain of reason leads to the conclusion that the HA scene happened, and what was confirmed was romantic feelings. Feelings which were confirmed in a somewhat risque manner, no less.
My mistake – I literally could not see the pic of Cloud and Tifa under the HW on this scan until I lightened the image:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/10thAUstorysummarypage.png
Before I lightened the image, I thought the only HW scene pic was of Barret on the deck of the HW.
Might try lightening the image a little sooner next time, perhaps?
That’s the point – they did do that when they put the page number.
"So if that's what they meant then why didn't they do this more obvious and sensible thing instead of what they did?"
"The did! When they did what they actually did!"
Derp.
Because the HW scene and Date scene have different options. The HW scene can have C and T confirm love OR confirm a platonic relationship by option.
Still not seeing any evidence of this conclusion. The HA scene has them confirm love, which you just admitted btw. You go back and forth even on that occasionally, so someone mark this down for posterity and quote it next time she disputes that the HA scene DOES confirm romance. But confirming ANYTHING AT ALL, let alone something specific like friendship (something they've already confirmed multiple times over the course of the game) is unsupported by anything. Nothing of importance happens in the LA version at all.
The option is that two different things can happen in that scene. The option in the date scene is who Cloud goes on the date with, not what feelings he confirms with Aerith.
The option in the HW scene is that either something happens, or nothing does. The option for the date scene is who shoves Cloud out the door and tries without success to express their feelings to him. Cloud doesn't confirm jack shit on the date, he's officially CLUELESS about that no matter who comes to fetch him.
Whenever Cloud goes on the Date with Aerith, the script remains the same. You get two different scripts during the HW scene according to which version you get.
And only one of those two different scripts can have happened. We know which one that is.
So they couldn’t show Cloud with different girls under the HW.
Oh they COULD have. If they'd wanted to, they could have put Yuffie under the Highwind, or Barrett for that matter. They didn't, not couldn't. They chose to make the HW scene all about Tifa.
The Deviation is what the two of them said to one other. So SE had to portray the options differently on the FTOIL page for each scene.
I don't even know what you're going on about here, nor how it matters with regards to the debate.
Okay, but you’re ignoring the fact that the Clerith date scene is on the page. Why show the Date scene at all if SE is declaring Cloti canon? The date scene is meaningless if SE is declaring Cloti canon on that page – there is absolutely no reason to show the date scene at all.
Again, it is the date scene. Not the Clerith date scene. It is acknowledgement of something related strongly to the TFOIL page's premise. People tried fessing up to their feelings for Cloud during the date scene. Multiple people, as in Tifa, Yuffie, Barrett (sorta in a weird way) and yes Aerith. It deserves mention on that page despite Cloud's complete obliviousness to their attempted confessions. We're not ignoring it, we've spelled this out for you many times already. Ask the same question, get the same answer. It does not invalidate the canonicity of the HAHW scene, nor of Cloti in general, one whit.
Besides, I say your graph is wrong. I think optionality is mentioned for both scenes on the FTOIL page. IMO, that’s said loud and clear by “page 232” at the top of the HW scene picture.
We've been over page 232 ad infinitum. Does it really need said again?
It doesn’t mention Aerith or what happens on the Clerith date because the option is for Cloud to go on the date with 4 different people where 4 different things happen. Not all the Date scenes have Aerith in them.
And its very big of you to admit that Aerith is not the center of the universe.
I should also mention that you’re actually contradicting yourself here.
If any one present would know a contradiction when they see it...
According to you, a pic of the HA version of the HW scene next to a quote about “confirming feelings” in the story summary confirms that the summary is talking about the HA version. If pictures represent what the story summary is talking about, then the Clerith date scene picture on the FTOIL page means that the page title about “Love Between Heroes” applies to the Clerith date scene picture.
It is not a picture of the
Clerith date scene. It is a picture of one of the dates used to represent the date scene above a short paragraph that refers to the date scene. A paragraph that does not mention Aerith by name at all and in fact does nothing but point out that who comes for the date is optional. The pic of the HA version is not the important part. Put pictures and words together, Annie, and you'll get a clearer picture of what's actually going on. Context!
That’s totally unfair. I’ve asked the same questions several times, but I never received an answer. Why should I answer your questions when my questions don’t get answered?
Be the bigger woman, answer questions with actual answers if you actually have any, and you might find people answer you more readily in return. Just a hunch.
Of course, you don't actually have answers to a lot of the big questions so I won't hold my breath personally.
The reason that I answer with a question is that I see my questions as being every bit as valid as yours.
Fair enough, we all see our questions as valid even when they are decidedly not.
I’ve been given no reason from anyone I’ve debated with about why the Clerith date scene would be on the FTOIL page if it has nothing to do with the topic of “Love Between Heroes”,
Tres, Ryu, Quex, and myself have all given you reasons for this. Probably others as well. And that was BEFORE you quit talking to 3/4ths of the people I just listed, for the record.
or why the Clerith date scene would be on the FTOIL page if SE is declaring Cloti canon on that page.
Scroll up a teensy bit.
Truth is, I can think of absolutely no reason for the Clerith date scene to be on the FTOIL page other than for SE to mean that Cloud can love Aerith as well as Tifa.
You don't want to think of another reason. That's why you've conveniently ignored or forgotten every other reason that's ever been suggested.
I’ve been saying the same thing all along – that Cloud’s love for both Aerith and Tifa are optional.
And you're wrong, just as you have been all along. Cloud's love for Aerith and Tifa are not optional. They're part of the story. You could genuinely argue about what degree of love he felt for Aerith, but for Tifa its been spelled out.
However, I would only agree with what you said about Cloud doesn’t HAVE to love Aerith in either version. I never said he did – I’ve only been saying that it’s possible, especially when Cloud’s in a love triangle with both women. The typical outcome of any romantic love triangle is that the main love interest falls in love with one or the other.
Its good that you never said that, since Aerith is not mentioned, hinted to be involved with, or otherwise connected AT ALL to the HW scene. HA, LA, doesn't matter. Aerith is not involved with it. You can also stop pointing out that Cloud is in a love triangle, its in the title of the thread so we kinda knew that. And you're forgetting the Harem option and the no romance option, both of which are valid approaches frequently seen to end a love triangle.
Sure ya did.
But you say the picture of the HA HW scene means that the story summary is referring to the HA HW scene. If the HA HW scene pic in the story summary means the summary is talking about the HA HW scene only, then the Clerith date scene pic on the FTOIL page means that the FTOIL page is referring to the Clerith date scene along with the other pictures.
See above.
Rather different, if you ask me. In KH1, a number of couples in love were reunited after a separation – like Beast and Beauty, Aladdin and Jasmine, etc. – so the same idea would obviously apply to Cloud and Aerith.
There is no such prevailing theme in AC/ACC like there is in KH1. And frankly, the only “truth” about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship that I saw presented in FFVII AC was misunderstanding and miscommunication.
I stopped reading this paragraph as soon as I saw "KH" come up. Meaningless. Can we not keep this to the Compilation?
Okay, sorry… I linked to a fanart by mistake because I just clicked on a jpeg titled “KH1Ending” late at night when I was tired.
At least some people got a good laugh out of it. Thanks for that.
(but seriously everyone screws up and don't feel overly bad about this)
Now, once again – in no way does Cloud look depressed to me.
Guessing this is about KH, and thus meaningless so far as I am concerned.
And again, “apathetic” refers to “indifference”. Therefore, both Cloud and Tifa are indifferent about getting involved romantically.
Nope. Apathetic CAN refer to indifference. It doesn't always and doesn't appear to be in this case, no matter how many times you repeat yourself on the subject. Tifa is not in any way shape or form indifferent to romance with Cloud. We know better, why don't you?
Same for the HA HW scene. If it went beyond what we saw in the HA HW scene, why wouldn’t it go beyond what we saw in the LA HW scene?
Because in the LA version they went to sleep and the fade-out leads to morning. In the HA version they bring up expressing their feelings without words and the fade-out actually implies things happening other than sleep. One fade-out is there because watching people sleep is boring and creepy. The other is there to preserve the game's rating.
Again, love was never discussed during the conversation shown during the HA HW scene. The only way we know that it happens is that SE said on the FTOIL page that one option is for Cloud to say he loves Tifa.
Yeah I knew the HAHW scene was romantic back in 1997. That was long before SE told us I was correct. So no, it is possible to see this without their direct statement.
SE described the other conversation (the LA HW scene) as “short and apathetic”, which is what I showed in the sample conversation.
Are you talking about the sample conversations you made up wholesale? Cause if so, no. Just... no.
I never said that was definite. It’s only logical, since a Love Triangle usually results in the main love interest falling in love with one or the other.
Except of course when that doesn't happen. Of course for THIS love triangle that's exactly what happened. With Tifa.
Now, hold on. You say that Cloud and Tifa confirm love in the HA HW scene, but it’s never shown in game.
Fade-out to some degree of physical expression is pretty easy to see.
The only way we know that is that the FTOIL page says that it’s optional for Cloud to love Tifa in the HW scene.
First, you added the word optional. It doesn't belong there. The FTOIL page doesn't say that. Secondly, I again knew this back in the year this game was released.
We are never shown that part of the conversation, so you can only infer that it exists beyond what is shown in game.
I dunno if the word "conversation" applies to what followed the fade to black in either version. In the HA it could be anywhere between a few kisses and some cuddles to full on X-rated action. In the LA... I figure their conversation was more "ZZZZZZ.....ZZZZZZ"
Then why do you think one conversation proves that Cloud loves Tifa when we never see him say that in the game?[/quotes]
Words aren't the only way to figure out what just happened.
If he confirms love with Tifa beyond the conversation that we see during the HA HW scene in game, then he confirms indifference to romance with Tifa beyond the conversation that we see during the LA HW scene in game. immediately goes to sleep in the fade-out of the LA HW scene.
Fixxed.
