The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

Thanks, but thats okay. I'm willing to wait for Zealkins responses.

 

[Dashell]

Really difficult to start one in this thread imo.

What do you mean? Isn't this whole thread kind of a debate?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Methinks he means it's difficult to start one on the terms he would prefer. We demand evidence for actual claims made, and get rightfully angry when we are given evasive and dishonest BS in return.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm pretty sure she doesn't mind, but I do, I can't accomodate all of you at once. I don't have that luxury anymore. Well, maybe I can still do two or three, feel free to join Zealkin if you're so interested about it.

If you're uncomfortable having a lot of people rebutting you and feel outnumbered I'm perfectly willing to be an spectator for a while and let you debate with Zealkin. But for now I demand you to post your arguments since it would be rude if you would settle things in PM when a whole lot of people are involved in this debate.

 

[Zealkin]

I answered this in pm already Giddy, but I would really like that Anastar answer herself, to avoid further miscommunication. And as I told her she can take forever if she wants I really don't mind, I just need to hear her say first, if that's okay.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Quex

*lol* Who's really actually having a debate here?

Ishtar

Methinks he means it's difficult to start one on the terms he would prefer. We demand evidence for actual claims made, and get rightfully angry when we are given evasive and dishonest BS in return.

Three at the most, is the term still bad enough?

Danseru

If you're uncomfortable having a lot of people rebutting you and feel outnumbered I'm perfectly willing to be an spectator for a while and let you debate with Zealkin.

Go join Zealkin if ya want, in fact I really like it if you'd join her.

But for now I demand you to post your arguments since it would be rude if you would settle things in PM when a whole lot of people are involved in this debate.

Will you get really really angry if I don't?

Zealkin

I answered this in pm already Giddy, but I would really like that Anastar answer herself, to avoid further miscommunication. And as I told her she can take forever if she wants I really don't mind, I just need to hear her say first, if that's okay.

She's going to say the same thing really...

 

[Dashell]

Methinks he means it's difficult to start one on the terms he would prefer. We demand evidence for actual claims made, and get rightfully angry when we are given evasive and dishonest BS in return.

Three at the most, is the term still bad enough?

... three what? O_o

Will you get really really angry if I don't?

Well I'd kind of like to see what you were going to say tbh. I won't get angry or anything but I'm just curious.

EDIT
but wait what are we talking about here? Zealkin's posts about double standards and stuff or something else?

 

[Celes Chere]

Really difficult to start one in this thread imo.

Then leave...?

 

[Dashell]

I don't think he's here to debate... or maybe he is... let's try this

Okay Shroudy, I'll start one... Cloti is canon. I cite as evidence

Spoiler: the entire Compilation including the game, interviews and the Ultimanias

The CloTi Perspective:
To begin the story of Cloti, we'll start in the lifestream event. It is in that moment when Tifa literally walks through Cloud's mind and sees the window to his past and true self. Many of Cloud's old memories and actions revolve around Tifa herself. In fact, the three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa.

(SOURCE 10th AU: "The memory of 5 years ago, the promise at the water tower, Cloud's motive to decide to become a SOLDIER. Together with Tifa, Cloud grasps the truth of himself and now faces the reality of 5 years ago. During the tragedy of Nibelheim, Cloud defeated Sephiroth as a mere soldier, keeping his promise to Tifa. At last, the two who discovered the truth meet again with true significance, and return to reality where their friends await.")

The first memory is that Cloud would get into fights constantly because he was angry at himself for not being able to protect Tifa from falling from Mt Nibel. The second memory is the night Cloud made the Promise to Tifa to come to help her if she ever needed it. This was significant to Cloud because Tifa had been called out to the water tower before by many other boys, but always turned them down. It was at this moment that Tifa began to take interest in Cloud.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE 10th AU page 24: "In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire.

However when the promise was exchanged, at that moment, Cloud became a special existence to her, which later, he now holds a huge position (in Tifa's life).")

Cloud also had feelings for Tifa, but because he was young, they hadn't the time grow yet. This is IMO, why they were called "dim" or "slight" feelings, because his feelings changed to that of love overtime as he grew.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12 "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her. )

The promise also means much to Cloud, for it is forever etched in his mind/memory.

(SOURCE Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile. "A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind.")

Cloud also decided to join SOLDIER because he wanted someone to notice him, and the one person he singles out, is once again, Tifa.

(SOURCE FFVII "Cloud: If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......").

The third and final memory is of when Cloud defeated Sephiroth and came to Tifa's rescue even though he was a tad late. All of these memories show just how important Tifa is to Cloud. Even the young Cloud says to Tifa that she should tell the adult Cloud about how she was looking for information about him in the newspaper when he left. The younger Cloud knows the adult Cloud cares about Tifa a great deal and knows this will make him happy because his feeling have changed from slight feelings to that of love.

(SOURCE: FFVII:
Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."

*Young Cloud looks down.*

"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

*Tifa nods* )

It is then Tifa realizes just how important she is to Cloud and that those feelings he had when he was a kid have grown to love, and we know she still carries her feelings for him from when she was younger.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.

SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.)


THIS is what Tifa and Cloud talked about under the Highwind. When they were left alone (left alone as in no one watched them even if they did have sex... )

(SOURCE: U20: As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.")

they realized how important they were to one another. They realized they loved one another and wanted to be by each other's side. They also related their feelings to each other without using words, which would indicate some form of romancing going on.

(SOURCE(s): "FFVIIUO, pg. 15: Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 198: When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"CCU, pg. 33: She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition: Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary: And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." )

"U20 Scenario, pg. 394 VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match

"U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232: Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

"FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game"

"U20 Scenario, pg. 199: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book)

Later on, on the Highwind, Cloud and Tifa get teased momentarily. None of the friends actually saw what happened, but Tifa is very embarrassed obviously concerned about what they might have seen, or heard. This happens even if you get the low affection scene, so it implies that something happened, even if it was just talking. If it was just feelings of friendship or working something out, Tifa is embarrassed for no reason at all. Cloud puts his hand behind his head as he's also embarrassed but not as much as Tifa. That moment is quickly forgotten as the story moves on.

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago, Cloud speaks about the promised land, saying that he thinks he can find his fallen friend there. He isn't sure if he's going to live, but knows that even if he doesn't, his friend will be waiting for him. Tifa agrees with Cloud and expresses an interest to see her fallen comrade as well.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega Tifa's Profile: After the dispute with Sephiroth is settled, the two of them, Tifa and Cloud, plot their escape from the hole of the crumbling cave's deepest depths. [He?] thinks he understands the Promised Land's meaning now and therefore thinks he can meet [her there...]

She smiles toward Cloud when he says this, "Yeah let's go meet [her]." she recites. The companion they go to meet is naturally Aerith.

At the start of CoT, Cloud smiles as Tifa stands by his side. Cloud expresses, once again, that he wishes for forgiveness for his sins. He believes starting a new life and living it the best he can will lead him to his salvation. And with a smile, he tells Tifa he believe he can do this now, and not fail like he has in the past, because he has her with him and he is very content with this.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)

When Case of Tifa progresses, Cloud and Barret build 7th Heaven as their home, and Barret decides at one point to leave.

(SOURCE: Case of Barret: "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.")

He leaves Marlene and Tifa and Cloud's care and calls them a family.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:
"Don't worry, I'll be a good kid to them!"
When Marlene said that, Cloud and Tifa exchanged glances. To us?
"I'll take good care of Tifa and Cloud!"
Looking back, Barret said with a shout:
"You be strong!" His voice was cracking. "Work together as a family and keep at it, ya hear?!"


Cloud begins to live like he said he would, and he's very happy with his new life. He even starts his own business and begins a delivery service. It is when this happens that things begin to change. Cloud starts to become distant and Tifa and Marlene notice this. This is because of the feelings of guilt he begins to feel.

(SOURCE: U10 Tifa's Profile: Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him."

He had to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City which reminded him of how badly he failed Aerith. He begins to feel that because he could not protect his friends and those important to him, that he doesn't deserve this wonderful family he has. He starts to feel worthless and grows more and more distant as time goes on.


(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nomura in Distance: "The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes."

SOURCE: Reunion Files: Tifa fought alongside Cloud in a battle two years ago. She has a long history of memories with him that are connected to their future, but Cloud eventually distances himself from Tifa.)

Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and Marlene and snaps at him a time or two. They are a couple in peril and many couples go through similar things like this. She asks Cloud one night if he loves her and he awakens perplexed for a moment. Afraid of the answer, she changes the question to ask if he loves Marlene to which he says, "Yes I just don't know how to approach her sometimes." Tifa then asks if they'll be okay, but doesn't get a response.

At some point during all this, Cloud begins visiting Aerith's church searching for salvation. One day when he's there he runs across Denzel, a young boy with Geostigma. He decides to bring Denzel back to join his family and Tifa agrees. They start to raise Denzel along with Marlene and their family life starts to get back to normal.

(SOURCE Case of Tifa: Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.)

One night Cloud tells Tifa that he feels Aerith brought Denzel to him and confesses to visiting the church. Tifa, not wanting Cloud to suffer alone, tells him that she'll go with him next time, and reaffirms his belief about Denzel, but adds that she believes Aerith brought Denzel to their home and family. Cloud smiles at hearing this, knowing that he has people who care about him and want to help. Tifa and his family are always with him and this makes him happy.

Shortly afterwards, Cloud begins searching for a cure for Denzel to redeem himself for his past sins;

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

Tifa nodded silently.

“But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”

“You mean Denzel?”

“Yeah.&#8221

however one day when he's out and about, he comes in contact with the disease. He feels that his one shot at redemption is completely blown and once again, he feels worthless. He thinks he doesn't deserve the friends and family he has, so he runs away to hide himself from his shame, and begins to live in Aerith's church possibly looking for another chance for salvation.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary Cloud's Profile: "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.")

AC Prologue: "Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he's never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away."

"Nomura: Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud's history, this is the first time he's experienced a 'peaceful' environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what's going on around him."

Shonen Gangan interview: "-- So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own.

-- Why?

Nomura: In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he's around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own.

-- But he still has a mobile phone, and he doesn't seem to have rejected other people outright.

Nomura: Yeah. Delivery work itself is something which connects people together. While he appears to be rejecting other people, in actual face he feels lonely deep down. That's why he has his mobile phone."

As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again. He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves along with Zack, Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

(SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

(BTW click on that text if you don't know how to use spoilers here)

Okay now you respond back and it's a debate


Actually idk what's going on so maybe I'll shut up

 

[Danseru-kun]

Will you get really really angry if I don't?

Kinda. I watch this debate religiously like a soap opera. But there are lot of rebuttals (over the last pages) that are addressed to the arguments of your side. If you leave them hanging like that for too long, spectators will assume these things:

1. You're finding the defense difficult meaning that the other side's arguments are really strong
2. You have given up
3. You don't care for the people waiting for your side to speak
4. You're afraid so you settle things in PM which is more convenient
5. You're waiting for others to help you

Not debating openly will take its toll on your side. And thank you for inviting me to join you, but I'll just probably support Zealkin and post things that were missed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Quex, the word is cite, not site.

Shroudy, I'll assume you mean 'three terms of debate.'
What are your terms? Lay them on the table. We shall see if they are reasonable.

Danseru, experience tells me it's a mix of 1, 3, and a whole lot of 4.
Hey, maybe those are the three he meant!

 

[JayM]

...since I've got two responses to post to Shroudy on CxA I'll just leave this alone, I suppose...

But re: Sola Scriptura, that's not entirely what I meant; I'm not really interested in ignoring everything outside of the OGC (although I'll leave the commercials and stupidly-written game manuals out, thx), just in taking the creator intent with a grain of salt. I think that's fair when you're arguing about the personality, motivations, and portrayal of an in-game character--if I were trying to make a larger argument about, say, Nojima's feelings on love, marriage, etc then I would by necessity take into account any pertinent quotes, because in that case I'm making a statement about Nojima, rather than about Cloud.

But I think it's perfectly fair to say, for example, that the in-game events/dialogue/whathaveyou are ambiguous even if the creators didn't intend them to be. It's like saying that in CPaolini's Eldest, Eragon's a sociopath. Does his author intend this? No. But I could damn well form a cogent argument that it's true, because once a created world is out of its authors' hands it does exist on its own merits.

...and I don't really know why I keep arguing this, it's not really relevant to what's currently being discussed, so feel free to let me talk myself into a corner until I finally buck up and write this essay I keep threatening. XD Carry on folks.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Oookie, let's start over again:

1.[This was my first post:

I saw your list of fallacies in your post. Some of it are really off by the way so I'll be sending you a pm about that. Also, try to find actual quotes that Aly made, because most of em(if not all of em) are really out of context.

You can still talk to Aly if you want, but she'll probably say the same thing when I first saw that post. ---Me

This is about Zealkin's post found here:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=399860&postcount=2659

2. Someone named Octo asked me why I can't post here:

Why does everything have to be through PM? I know Anastar has issues with her internet connection and stuff, but I'm sure Zealkin wouldn't mind you replying to her post in this thread Giddy. ---Octo

3. I told her why:

I'm pretty sure she doesn't mind, but I do, I can't accomodate all of you at once. I don't have that luxury anymore.---Me

4. But I still made some compromise:

Well, maybe I can still do two or three, feel free to join Zealkin if you're so interested about it. --Me

This is what meant when I said "three at most" for those who got lost in the flow of conversation.I can't accommodate all of you, but I can still probably manage three.

For the people who wants to talk about the fallacies , two more are welcome to join in. We'll arrange a better location.

Quex

I'll tell you the details, maybe I'll work it out with Aly.....

Danseru

Kinda. I watch this debate religiously like a soap opera.

Well if you do get angry, will you express your rage over the internet? Preferrably in all caps and bright red fonts?

But there are lot of rebuttals (over the last pages) that are addressed to the arguments of your side. If you leave them hanging like that for too long, spectators will assume these things:

1. You're finding the defense difficult meaning that the other side's arguments are really strong
2. You have given up
3. You don't care for the people waiting for your side to speak
4. You're afraid so you settle things in PM which is more convenient
5. You're waiting for others to help you

You can try to prove that theory for yourself if you want.

Not debating openly will take its toll on your side. And thank you for inviting me to join you, but I'll just probably support Zealkin and post things that were missed.

Just let me know when you're ready, Danseru.

Ishtar

Shroudy, I'll assume you mean 'three terms of debate.'
What are your terms? Lay them on the table. We shall see if they are reasonable.

I explained it right above... 3 on one isn't a bad term now is it?

Then leave...?

I actually find leaving not that difficult really, I just turn the pc off and get up.....Oh wait, you're wondering why I'm not leaving....

Well are we done?

 

[Anastar]

Note: in answer to Zealkin's post here:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=399860&postcount=2659

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

Zealkin

Anastar, when I first looked at this thread (or just the LTD in general) I wondered why it wasn't over with, or why people kept arguing. Ryu and a few other mentioned fallacies, but I didn't have experience with them, so i decided to look them up today. I found quite a few that are in relations to the arguments made, and I just want to address them to you before we go on.

The first fallacy I see here is that you think I’m the only one making these fallacies – the people debating against me are making the same or similar fallacies when responding to me.

In the second place, I think this would be way more productive if you were to observe that the fallacy exists when I make the fallacy. Then we wouldn’t have to search through all my past replies in order to find exactly what I said. In other words, it would be much easier if you observe the fallacy at the time I supposedly make it.

In the third place, in glancing through this, I see many accusations against my arguments that aren’t true, such as what you said here:

False Continuum
The idea that because there is no definitive demarcation line between two extremes, that the distinction between the extremes is not real or meaningful: There is a fuzzy line between cults and religion, therefore they are really the same thing.

EX: Two extremes- Having Romantic disinterest(Low affection Scene)= Cloud was in Love with Aerith

Sorry, but I never said that the Low affection scene means that Cloud is in love with Aerith. What I actually said is this:

There is nothing mysterious whatsoever about a mutual lack of sexual and/or romantic interest. I would hope that you'd realize by now that sometimes adults can realize that there are certain relationships which would be a mistake to get involved in, even if they are interested. I remember a great episode of Seinfeld where a manifestation of his brain was arguing with another part of his anatomy over whether or not to get involved with some girl. Perhaps you're too young to realize this, but sometimes there's more involved in relationships than just sexual interest.

You can be romantically and/or sexually attracted to someone, but know at the same time that it would be a mistake to get involved in a relationship with them. That can qualify as "disinterest". For example, it said this in Tifa's profile in the 10th AU:

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

That would show reason for Tifa to be disinterested in a relationship with Cloud right there. If Tifa knows that Cloud is still in love with Aerith, she'd have reason not to want a romantic relationship with him. Cloud wouldn't want anything but friendship with Tifa if he's still in love with Aerith. Therefore, they'd have mutual romantic disinterest in each other and the LA scene happens.

It's totally possible within the framework of what happens in the Compilation. It doesn't agree with your interpretation, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

I do believe that’s the first time I brought up the idea. It was in this post here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=375830&postcount=1919

Now, I clearly said that IF Tifa knows that Cloud is still in love with Aerith, that would give her reason not to want a romantic relationship with him. It should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I said that IF Cloud’s still in love with Aerith, he would want anything but friendship with Tifa. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. Then I say that it’s possible within the framework of the Compilation. Again, I only say it’s possible – I never said that it actually did happen. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I never said it was definite.

I repeated more than once that I never viewed it as something definite – only a possible situation. Such as in this post:

And there is no quote that says that says Cloud has low affection for Tifa because he loves Aerith, can you at least meet me half way here and explain your reasoning?

Nowhere did I say that was definite, but I've already explained numerous times how it's possible.

Your question is like asking me why Cloud loves Tifa (assuming that he does). It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she fights well and she's sexy. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because he had a crush on her when he was a kid and he never got over it. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she's brave and optimistic. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she understands him so well. Any of those reasons are possible, or it's possible that he loves her for ALL of those reasons combined. But SE has never said so - in fact, SE has never said at all that Cloud loves Tifa on a non-optional basis. Yet, you think he does.

So why does he NOT love Tifa in the LA version? SE hasn't said why, just like SE hasn't said why Cloud loves Tifa or even IF Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. I've given you possible reasons. I've already explained those possible reasons.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378

Once again, I only say that it’s a possible situation, not something definite. I made the same point in other posts. Yet, I keep getting accused of saying that Cloud loves Aerith in the LA version. Sorry, but I never said that. I only said that it’s a possible explanation of why Cloud and Tifa would not have mutual interest in a romantic relationship with one another.

So maybe part of the problem we’re not communicating is that you and others debating me aren’t reading what I say carefully. Maybe part of the problem is that you and others are jumping to conclusions about what I’ve said.

For example, the accusations made earlier in this thread that I was trying to prove that Clerith is canon, even though I had repeatedly stated that I thought the LTD is open to interpretation. That’s what finally led to me putting a disclaimer at the top of my posts. It took me literally three hours to find the posts I linked to above, so I’m not going to search for where that controversy started. But there’s plenty here who remember that conflict, including GiddyUnicorn.


The following is another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

False Dichotomy
Arbitrarily reducing a set of many possibilities to only two. For example, evolution is not possible, therefore we must have been created (assumes these are the only two possibilities). This fallacy can also be used to oversimplify a continuum of variation to two black and white choices. For example, science and pseudoscience are not two discrete entities, but rather the methods and claims of all those who attempt to explain reality fall along a continuum from one extreme to the other.

EX: Even though there are a variety of different scenarios for the Date scenes and the Highwind scene, you refuse to see anyone else involved except Cloud, Tifa and Aerith, even while continuing to use the Date mechanics that can support all four characters.

I’ve given reason for that in prior posts. Namely, that Aerith and Tifa are the only two date possibilities who are said to be part of the Love Triangle. That was stated in Aerith’s FFVII Profile:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~FFVII Game Manual

Because we are debating the Love Triangle, and because Aerith and Tifa are the only date possibilities who are said by SE to be part of the Love Triangle, then the other date possibilities (Yuffie and Barret) are irrelevant to the Love Triangle Debate.

Since which version of the Highwind scene a player gets is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be considered when discussing the Highwind scene. It’s stated in more than once place in the Ultimania’s that which version of the Highwind scene you get is determined by Tifa’s affection level. Examples:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Since Tifa’s affection level determines which version of the Highwind scene you get, and Tifa’s affection level is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be part of the discussion about the Highwind scene.

I know you think that the HA version is canon, but I’ve yet to see proof that it is. I’ve seen your evidence for thinking that the HA version is canon, but I don’t agree that your evidence conclusively proves that the HA version is canon.

Once again, perhaps you and others need to read my posts more carefully. Another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

Inconsistency
Applying criteria or rules to one belief, claim, argument, or position but not to others. For example, some consumer advocates argue that we need stronger regulation of prescription drugs to ensure their safety and effectiveness, but at the same time argue that medicinal herbs should be sold with no regulation for either safety or effectiveness.

EX: Koibito is mutual for Aerith, when it's in first person and she's talking about herself, but not mutual for Tifa when it's from the creators own words.

Once again, you’re misunderstanding me. I never said that koibito is used mutually for Aeirth, but not for Tifa.

I never said that koibito definitely has a mutual meaning in either case, only that the word koibito can have a mutual meaning. You linked me to a post by Rygdea where he agreed that the word can mean that the affection is mutual as well as that the affection is one-sided.

Since there is no official translation of CoL, then we do not know how SE would translate koibito in CoL. The TLS translators have arbitrarily decided that koibito has a one-sided meaning in CoLWhite, but that is making a presumption. It’s just as possible that koibito in CoLWhite means mutual affection between Cloud and Aerith.

Now, SE officially translated koibto as “sweetheart” in the Reunion Files. However, it only says that Tifa is a sweetheart. That page and the facing page never specify that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. The text on that page and the facing page also does not imply in any way that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. You have only arrived at that conclusion from your own interpretation of the story.

Once again, perhaps you and others need to read my posts more carefully. Another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

No True Scotsman
This fallacy is a form of circular reasoning, in that it attempts to include a conclusion about something in the very definition of the word itself. It is therefore also a semantic argument.

The term comes from the example: If Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave, and you provide a counter example of a Scotsman who is clearly a coward, Ian might respond, "Well, then, he's no true Scotsman." In essence Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave by including bravery in the definition of what it is to be a Scotsman. This argument does not establish and facts or new information, and is limited to Ian's definition of the word, "Scotsman."

EX: According to you Cloud and Tifa don't act like a couple, and you don't see them as having communicated mutual feelings. Therefore they are not a couple.

Once again, I never said this. I did not say that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple. I said that it’s not canon that Cloud and Tifa are a couple, but that it is a possible for them to be a couple on an optional basis. I even state that in my Disclaimer:

1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

I say in both 4) and 5) that Cloti is a possible interpretation of the Compilation. If I think that Cloti is a possible interpretation, then I think it’s possible that they are. The only thing I’m disputing is whether or not Cloti has been canonized by SE.

Once again, perhaps you and others need to read my posts more carefully. Another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable
Because we do not currently have an adequate explanation for a phenomenon does not mean that it is forever unexplainable, or that it therefore defies the laws of nature or requires a paranormal explanation. An example of this is the "God of the Gapsa" strategy of creationists that whatever we cannot currently explain is unexplainable and was therefore an act of god.

EX: This relates more to your perspective more than mine, but you insist that the LTD is not over and that there is no adequate explanation for it to be over. As the compilation has continued we have received information, it's not forever unexplainable.

I never said that there would never be an adequate explanation for the LTD. Who knows? At some point, SE may conclusively portray that Cloud currently loves Tifa non-optionally OR that Cloud continues to love Aerith non-optionally OR that Cloud loves both of them non-optionally.

I’ve never said that the LT can never be solved - just that the current available evidence hasn’t solved the LT conclusively YET. Yes, we have received more information and yes the Compilation has continued. However, as of now, myself and other people do not think your evidence is adequate to solve the LT conclusively.

Once again, perhaps you and others need to read my posts more carefully.

Another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

Special pleading, or ad-hoc reasoning
This is a subtle fallacy which is often difficult to recognize. In essence, it is the arbitrary introduction of new elements into an argument in order to fix them so that they appear valid. A good example of this is the ad-hoc dismissal of negative test results. For example, one might point out that ESP has never been demonstrated under adequate test conditions, therefore ESP is not a genuine phenomenon. Defenders of ESP have attempted to counter this argument by introducing the arbitrary premise that ESP does not work in the presence of skeptics. This fallacy is often taken to ridiculous extremes, and more and more bizarre ad hoc elements are added to explain experimental failures or logical inconsistencies.

EX: Translations, they go against your favor, you state that fan translations are unreliable to begin with.

No, I have never stated that fan translations are unreliable to begin with. What I have said is that sometimes fan translations agree with SE’s translations, and sometimes they don’t.

An example of this is Cloud’s statement near the end of FFVII: “I think I can meet her…. there”. I’ve heard some fan translators say that it doesn’t really say that in Japanese. These translators say that the word “I” is not specified, so it could be translated as “we”. These translators also say that “her” is unspecified, so the translation could easily be “them”. These translators are apparently right.

However, it doesn’t even matter that that’s what it really says because SE has translated that sentence twice – once when FFVII was released and a second time when Advent Children was released. The Advent Children translation was indeed changed - but the only change in the new translation was to change “meet” to “find”. The pronouns remained the same.

Therefore, despite the fact that the Japanese text doesn’t really say that, it’s obvious that’s the way SE wants it translated. SE has made it clear that SE wants Cloud to be saying “I think I can find her”, not “I think we can find them”.

So how can we know that all TLS translations correspond to the way SE would translate? The same is true of koibito in CoLWhite. Since koibito can mean “sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend” as well as “beloved”, there is no way TLS can know for sure how SE would translate koibito in CoLWhite until SE translates it.

Once again, I’m being accused of a fallacy when no fallacy exists simply because you have misunderstood my argument. Perhaps you need to read my arguments more carefully.

Now more examples of where I’m being falsely accused of fallacies:

Non-Sequitur
In Latin this term translates to "doesn't follow". This refers to an argument in which the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises. In other words, a logical connection is implied where none exists.

EX: Tifa has complicated feelings towards Aerith= Tifa is jealous.

Post-hoc ergo propter hoc
This fallacy follows the basic format of: A preceded B, therefore A caused B, and therefore assumes cause and effect for two events just because they are temporally related (the latin translates to "after this, therefore because of this").

EX: Cloud was alone before, after advent Children he's not alone therefore he was alone when with Tifa...

The only fallacy here is that you apparently consider these two issues to be resolved in your favor. These aren’t fallacies – these are issues on which we disagree.

Just because you disagree with my conclusions doesn’t automatically mean that you’re right and I’m wrong. I’ve given evidence and reasons that back up my conclusions. My evidence and reasons have yet to be proven right or wrong. You’ve also given evidence and reasons to back up your conclusions. Your evidence and reasons have yet to be proven right or wrong.

Neither of our conclusions has been conclusively proven to be right or wrong as of yet. We merely disagree, and we both have evidence to back up what we think. So don’t dismiss my reasoning as a fallacy yet.

Need I go on? I can find similar problems with the rest of the fallacies you listed.

Now, that leads to fallacies committed by you and the other Cloti debaters here. Here is a list of fallacies:

http://celebrationofreason.com/logical_fallacies.htm

The fallacies on that website seem to correspond with many of the fallacies you listed. Here are two that you didn’t include:

3. Argument from authority
Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it.

20. Unstated Major Premise
This fallacy occurs when one makes an argument which assumes a premise which is not explicitly stated. For example, arguing that we should label food products with their cholesterol content because Americans have high cholesterol assumes that: 1) cholesterol in food causes high serum cholesterol; 2) labeling will reduce consumption of cholesterol; and 3) that having a high serum cholesterol is unhealthy. This fallacy is also sometimes called begging the question.

The “Argument from Authority” and the “Unstated Major Premise” are the main fallacies of this TLS article about the Love Triangle being over:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

The person who wrote the “LTD is Over” article is claiming the authority to decide what is canon. The person gives evidence to support his opinion. However, SE has never made a statement which conclusively verifies his opinion. He has given evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence to argue against his opinion. Not everyone agrees with his opinion, and his opinion hasn’t been conclusively verified by SE. Furthermore, this person does not work for SE.

Therefore, this person does not have the authority to speak for SE. He also does not have the authority to decide what SE thinks.

Furthermore, the article is assuming a premise that’s unspoken by SE: that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. SE has never stated that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, and SE has never stated that the HA HW scene is canon. There is some evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence that does not support his opinion. Therefore, his opinion has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by SE.

Note that I am not saying that the arguments in this article have fallacies. The arguments may be right or may be wrong.

The fallacy is that the writer is assuming that these arguments have been conclusively proven when they have not. The Cloti debaters here at TLS won’t admit that the arguments have not been conclusively proven. Instead, the Cloti debaters here at TLS seem to think that somehow they can decide for SE.

The evidence given in this article is not conclusive except in your opinion. No one can speak for SE until SE has stated what they think. I have brought this up before – I mention it again only because I see the same fallacies I’ve discussed before listed on this website:

http://celebrationofreason.com/logical_fallacies.htm

You’ve asked me to respond and I have. I think your fallacies are inaccurate largely because you’re accusing me of using arguments that I have not in reality used. I think a large part of the problem is caused by misunderstanding my arguments rather than me using fallacies.

I would also suggest that next time you think my arguments contain fallacies, you bring it up at the time I supposedly make the fallacy.

That’s all I will say on the subject of fallacies. I consider this discussion closed.

If you want to discuss fallacies any further, count me out. I think it would be better to continue my debate with Quex instead of focusing on how we debate. If Zealkin would like to discuss fallacies any further, then GiddyUnicorn will be glad to discuss fallacies with her. Unfortunately, he doesn't have time to discuss it with everyone - so his responses will be only to Zealkin.

EDIT: BTW, GiddyUnicorn says he will only debate by PM.

 

[Vendel]

Now, that leads to fallacies committed by you and the other Cloti debaters here. Here is a list of fallacies:

http://celebrationofreason.com/logical_fallacies.htm

The fallacies on that website seem to correspond with many of the fallacies you listed. Here are two that you didn’t include:

3. Argument from authority
Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it.

Now why does this come off to me as "Just because you have people who can reliably translate and you don't pull symbolism out of your ass on a whim doesn't mean you know anything about what SE this saying"?

And see the bolded part? Try a little of that logic for once.

20. Unstated Major Premise
This fallacy occurs when one makes an argument which assumes a premise which is not explicitly stated.

Or as it should be labeled "The entire C/A argument".

The “Argument from Authority” and the “Unstated Major Premise” are the main fallacies of this TLS article about the Love Triangle being over:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

The person who wrote the “LTD is Over” article is claiming the authority to decide what is canon.

By translating the page and having the unmitigated gall to accept what it actually says rather than try and invent 10 new meanings for it based on pictures and numbers?

Furthermore, the article is assuming a premise that’s unspoken by SE: that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally.

One would think that when you make a page about displays of romantic love and don't use the words "optional" or "up to the player" for Cloud and Tifa the premise kind of speaks for itself.

The fallacy is that the writer is assuming that these arguments have been conclusively proven when they have not. The Cloti debaters here at TLS won’t admit that the arguments have not been conclusively proven. Instead, the Cloti debaters here at TLS seem to think that somehow they can decide for SE.

Okay so which one of you "cloti debaters" wrote the entire series and all the Ultimania?

The evidence given in this article is not conclusive except in your opinion.

And in the opinion of anyone who doesn't refuse to believe it on shipping grounds.

No one can speak for SE until SE has stated what they think.

Yeah they should do something like make a guidebook which has a page in it that points out the displays of romantic love between the protagonist.

That would settle this real quick.

You’ve asked me to respond and I have. I think your fallacies are inaccurate largely because you’re accusing me of using arguments that I have not in reality used. I think a large part of the problem is caused by misunderstanding my arguments rather than me using fallacies.

Who wants to volunteer to go back and find where she is doing all the things she claimed she has not done?

If you want to discuss fallacies any further, count me out.

Because pointing out her incredibly dishonest debating tactics gets her nowhere.

EDIT: BTW, GiddyUnicorn says he will only debate by PM.

Who?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

One would think that when you make a page about displays of romantic love and don't use the words "optional" or "up to the player" for Cloud and Tifa the premise kind of speaks for itself.

Yeah they should do something like make a guidebook which has a page in it that points out the displays of romantic love between the protagonist.

That would settle this real quick.

Who wants to volunteer to go back and find where she is doing all the things she claimed she has not done?

This isn't a complete list by any means, but:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=376701&postcount=1993

Who?

Shroudy.

 

[Dashell]

Sorry, but I never said that the Low affection scene means that Cloud is in love with Aerith. What I actually said is this:

The problem here is that, yes, you give us what ifs or maybes... but you only seem to pull them out when they suit your argument. However, I believe it's shown us what your argument is.

You're NOT arguing pro Clerith (As shown by how you say Cloud doesn't have to love Aerith) you're arguing Anti-Cloti. You say that's neutral, but it's not. Being anti-Cloti does not make you neutral.

For example, you've been saying Cloud doesn't have to love either one for a while, but when I asked you to prove that the LA scene meant Cloud loved Aerith, suddenly you said:

The typical outcome of any romantic love triangle is that the main love interest falls in love with one or the other.

So you were using a love triangle as evidence of the fact that Cloud would love Aerith in this scene. You also have used the "Love rival" quote as evidence of this. You say the feelings Tifa is feeling is jealousy, because Cloud loves Aerith... but then later you said he might not love Aerith.

It gets confusing when you do this. It's what's causing a lot of problems. You need to pick a stance on these things and defend that stance. Not just pick one and use it sometimes, then suddenly change when it's convenient.

EDIT
To clarify this, what makes it confusing is you'll make a claim like "Cloud and Tifa can't be the canon couple." or something. Then when someone says "Prove they aren't a couple", you respond with "I didn't say they weren't a couple, I said they weren't CANON! Read what I said next time!" and then leave it at that and not even both to respond the rest of what the person said. It's like playing a constant word game or something.

Are you arguing that Cloud loves Aerith or not? Are you arguing that he doesn't love either or not? Pick a stance and stick with it and try to prove it. When you jump around a whim like this, or use word games, it's just confusing and hard to keep up and other people get frustrated with it. Not to mention it's hard to keep up with you as no one knows what your standpoint is when you're debating.

It's the same thing with the Japanese translation thing. You say you're using the wordy literal translation of "Engraved in the heart" because supposedly, you're getting back at the mean ol' Clotis who used Japanese against you in the past, but you're missing somethings here. You don't know anything about Japanese. That's not an insult, btw, you have no problems admitting this. My point is, what you're doing is NOT the same thing as what people here have done.

Some people here will say, "Okay this statement in Japanese says tachiba which means roles [and links to it like so: http://www.nihongodict.com/w/53366/tachiba/] but the official translation says dimensions of character here. So dimensions of characters must mean roles in this case. Also it only says she's like a mother, the like doesn't go with the other clauses." and you're over there going, "No no, the official translation says dimensions of character so it must mean character traits and the official translation also says like a sweetheart!" and then say you use the official translation and completely ignore the Japanese sentence because you say you don't know Japanese or because why would Square say that if they didn't mean it... then you turn around and say "Okay this says engraved in the heart in Japanese! So Imma use that instead of the official translation... ha ha I sure got them back!"

no, not at all.

First of all, what that person above there did was use BOTH the Japanese and the English to come to a conclusion. They aren't ignoring the English translation, which is what you're doing with the DoC manual quote.

Second of all, you don't know anything about Japanese, so, and I'm sorry if this is rude, but I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone what the Japanese means or says or anything. Now you've quoted what others have said about it and that's fine. but right now, you're lack of Japanese is showing because what the Japanese says (and I can say this from research) is an idiom for "will never forget" I don't care if you want to use what's in the DOC manual as a point for your side, or even if you want to say in this case it's romantic. But to say what's written in the DoC manual is romantic by default... that's a lie.

Third of all, it's an awful ugly double standard to use the official translation every single time except when it suddenly supports your view. No matter what excuse you come up with to use it, it looks bad. And to do all this to because people here did it to you first... well... come on, you're a year older than me... you're too old for something like that. This isn't third grade here. Don't you think you're a little better than that?

And lemme tell you something else, if some idiot out there is going "Well this in the end just says think, can, meet. It might not be about Aerith at all!"... well fuck them. Don't give them the time of day. They're just being stupid. That doesn't mean you have to be stupid.

I’ve given reason for that in prior posts. Namely, that Aerith and Tifa are the only two date possibilities who are said to be part of the Love Triangle. That was stated in Aerith’s FFVII Profile:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~FFVII Game Manual

Because we are debating the Love Triangle, and because Aerith and Tifa are the only date possibilities who are said by SE to be part of the Love Triangle, then the other date possibilities (Yuffie and Barret) are irrelevant to the Love Triangle Debate.

Since which version of the Highwind scene a player gets is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be considered when discussing the Highwind scene. It’s stated in more than once place in the Ultimania’s that which version of the Highwind scene you get is determined by Tifa’s affection level. Examples:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Since Tifa’s affection level determines which version of the Highwind scene you get, and Tifa’s affection level is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be part of the discussion about the Highwind scene.

I know you think that the HA version is canon, but I’ve yet to see proof that it is. I’ve seen your evidence for thinking that the HA version is canon, but I don’t agree that your evidence conclusively proves that the HA version is canon.

And right here you're saying the love triangle makes it so only Tifa and Aerith count... but, yet you've also said Cloud doesn't have to love either. So if he doesn't love either, does that mean he loves no one? Or could he in fact love Yuffie? If Cloud falls in love with another woman, does that mean there's no longer a love triangle among them?

Just because there's a love triangle with Tifa, Aerith and Cloud, doesn't mean other people can't love Cloud or that he can't love them, so this reasoning does NOT work. If you want to use the date mechanics, you use them all, not just one or two aspects of it.

Once again, you’re misunderstanding me. I never said that koibito is used mutually for Aeirth, but not for Tifa.

I never said that koibito definitely has a mutual meaning in either case, only that the word koibito can have a mutual meaning. You linked me to a post by Rygdea where he agreed that the word can mean that the affection is mutual as well as that the affection is one-sided.

Since there is no official translation of CoL, then we do not know how SE would translate koibito in CoL. The TLS translators have arbitrarily decided that koibito has a one-sided meaning in CoLWhite, but that is making a presumption. It’s just as possible that koibito in CoLWhite means mutual affection between Cloud and Aerith.

Now, SE officially translated koibto as “sweetheart” in the Reunion Files. However, it only says that Tifa is a sweetheart. That page and the facing page never specify that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. The text on that page and the facing page also does not imply in any way that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. You have only arrived at that conclusion from your own interpretation of the story.

the stupid K word came up again.

The word TLS used was "Beloved" which can be one sided, or mutual. It has the same meaning as koibito really. It's a perfect translation. Using "lover" would have been biased in the Clerith favor. TLS was being UNBIASED by using a word that could be one sided or mutual, depending on your POV. So please stop with this and realize what we say in this thread doesn't neccesarly reflect on what's published on the front page.

Once again, I never said this. I did not say that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple. I said that it’s not canon that Cloud and Tifa are a couple

You missed her point entirely and this is a perfect example of what I talked about in the beginning of my post. Her point is that you're putting what you see on the same level as what we're told. Like before you said Jessie, Wedge and Biggs "belong together" according to you, then used it as an example of how people "belong together" when it's not romantic; the problem here is Nojima was the one who said Cloud and Tifa belong together. He is above you in this debate. You can't make up an example and then act like it has the same weight as something a creator said. What you say, or what you think does NOT hold the same weight as a creator statement. You can't say "Well I didn't see this therefore it can't be no matter what the creator says!" Not in a debate about canon anyway.

If you don't want "us" deciding for SE, then don't do it yourself.

I never said that there would never be an adequate explanation for the LTD. Who knows? At some point, SE may conclusively portray that Cloud currently loves Tifa non-optionally OR that Cloud continues to love Aerith non-optionally OR that Cloud loves both of them non-optionally.

I’ve never said that the LT can never be solved - just that the current available evidence hasn’t solved the LT conclusively YET. Yes, we have received more information and yes the Compilation has continued. However, as of now, myself and other people do not think your evidence is adequate to solve the LT conclusively.

Once again, perhaps you and others need to read my posts more carefully.

In this case I think it was more, we know what you're saying, we just very much disagree.

The rest of the stuff... honestly I sorta can go either way. I mean I think a lot of those things Zealkin posted can go both ways. Maybe not with anyone here specifically, but I've seen a lot of that stuff crop up elsewhere, not just here and I honestly don't think it's fair to try to pin it all on one person. So w/e on that.

Quex

I'll tell you the details, maybe I'll work it out with Aly.....

the details on what? What I posted? idgi

 

[Danseru-kun]

Danseru

Well if you do get angry, will you express your rage over the internet? Preferrably in all caps and bright red fonts?

Why would I want to do that? I want debates to be civil and impersonal, and what happens in this thread stays in this thread for me. I don't vent out my anger or frustration in some public place so people will sympathize with me.

You can try to prove that theory for yourself if you want.

It's not for me to prove those, it's up for the audience to judge. There are neutral spectators and unbiased lurkers in this debate which I care about. Though I may never know what they think, I do my best to show them that the pro-Cloti side is strong.

Just let me know when you're ready, Danseru.

Umm... it depends on the amount of work I have in real life. But trust me I can post at least once a week. And I'll only post additional arguments whenever there are points not mentioned by Quex or Zealkin (which hasn't posted yet.) As for now, Quex said it all. And also note that I debate in public only.

EDIT: Oh Quex, remind her this:

I’ve given reason for that in prior posts. Namely, that Aerith and Tifa are the only two date possibilities who are said to be part of the Love Triangle. That was stated in Aerith’s FFVII Profile:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~FFVII Game Manual

Because we are debating the Love Triangle, and because Aerith and Tifa are the only date possibilities who are said by SE to be part of the Love Triangle, then the other date possibilities (Yuffie and Barret) are irrelevant to the Love Triangle Debate.

If she uses this stand then she should not include Johnny or Rude in the LT either. In Tifa's description she was "like a mother, a koibito and a close ally in battle." If the LT only includes Cloud, Aerith and Tifa, then only Cloud or Aerith can apply to koibito. We all agree that it's not Aerith. Then the last person in the triangle is Cloud whose profiles indicates that Tifa is an important woman and the mother of his family, plus we have that 8 quotes of deeply communicated feelings between them. Therefore, Tifa can only be a koibito to Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ishtar

I explained it right above... 3 on one isn't a bad term now is it?

But it's not your only term. Since you only want to do it by PM.

Zealkin

The first fallacy I see here is that you think I’m the only one making these fallacies – the people debating against me are making the same or similar fallacies when responding to me.

Evidence, then.

In the second place, I think this would be way more productive if you were to observe that the fallacy exists when I make the fallacy.

Funny, I recall DOING JUST THAT and you getting pissy about it.

Then we wouldn’t have to search through all my past replies in order to find exactly what I said. In other words, it would be much easier if you observe the fallacy at the time I supposedly make it.

So, you ADMIT you were blatantly ignoring posts, then.

Sorry, but I never said that the Low affection scene means that Cloud is in love with Aerith. What I actually said is this:

I do believe that’s the first time I brought up the idea. It was in this post here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=375830&postcount=1919

Now, I clearly said that IF Tifa knows that Cloud is still in love with Aerith, that would give her reason not to want a romantic relationship with him. It should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I said that IF Cloud’s still in love with Aerith, he would want anything but friendship with Tifa. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. Then I say that it’s possible within the framework of the Compilation. Again, I only say it’s possible – I never said that it actually did happen. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I never said it was definite.

Which means you should stop using it as evidence.

Once again, I only say that it’s a possible situation, not something definite. I made the same point in other posts. Yet, I keep getting accused of saying that Cloud loves Aerith in the LA version. Sorry, but I never said that. I only said that it’s a possible explanation of why Cloud and Tifa would not have mutual interest in a romantic relationship with one another.

Which means the onus is still on you to support this hypothetical.

So maybe part of the problem we’re not communicating is that you and others debating me aren’t reading what I say carefully. Maybe part of the problem is that you and others are jumping to conclusions about what I’ve said.

Or maybe it's because you're trying to argue against evidence with 'Maybe'

For example, the accusations made earlier in this thread that I was trying to prove that Clerith is canon, even though I had repeatedly stated that I thought the LTD is open to interpretation.

A curious sort of open where you always argue Anti-C/T but never Anti-C/A.

That’s what finally led to me putting a disclaimer at the top of my posts. It took me literally three hours to find the posts I linked to above, so I’m not going to search for where that controversy started. But there’s plenty here who remember that conflict, including GiddyUnicorn.

There's also plenty here who remember previous conflicts. And your website. And your forum. And know what you say and what you do do not match up.

I’ve given reason for that in prior posts. Namely, that Aerith and Tifa are the only two date possibilities who are said to be part of the Love Triangle. That was stated in Aerith’s FFVII Profile:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~FFVII Game Manual

Because we are debating the Love Triangle, and because Aerith and Tifa are the only date possibilities who are said by SE to be part of the Love Triangle, then the other date possibilities (Yuffie and Barret) are irrelevant to the Love Triangle Debate.

Again, this IS a fallacy. Just because only three people are named as being involved in a love triangle, it does not mean they are the only relevant players.

Since Tifa’s affection level determines which version of the Highwind scene you get, and Tifa’s affection level is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be part of the discussion about the Highwind scene.

And thus, you must include either all folks who can be affected by the date mechanism, or ignore everyone but Tifa as irrelevant. There's no reason to include Aerith as relevant to the scene since her mechanic doesn't affect Tifa's. No more than Barret's or Yuffie's anyways.

I know you think that the HA version is canon, but I’ve yet to see proof that it is. I’ve seen your evidence for thinking that the HA version is canon, but I don’t agree that your evidence conclusively proves that the HA version is canon.

But you misunderstand- seemingly quite deliberately- what is actually said in the evidence.

Once again, you’re misunderstanding me. I never said that koibito is used mutually for Aeirth, but not for Tifa.

I never said that koibito definitely has a mutual meaning in either case, only that the word koibito can have a mutual meaning. You linked me to a post by Rygdea where he agreed that the word can mean that the affection is mutual as well as that the affection is one-sided.

Since there is no official translation of CoL, then we do not know how SE would translate koibito in CoL. The TLS translators have arbitrarily decided that koibito has a one-sided meaning in CoLWhite, but that is making a presumption. It’s just as possible that koibito in CoLWhite means mutual affection between Cloud and Aerith.

The presumption would be using it in the mutual sense, since there's no actual evidence for it. The careful translation here is the one sided one.

Now, SE officially translated koibto as “sweetheart” in the Reunion Files. However, it only says that Tifa is a sweetheart. That page and the facing page never specify that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. The text on that page and the facing page also does not imply in any way that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. You have only arrived at that conclusion from your own interpretation of the story.

And the logical principle known as parsimony. Tifa is A sweetheart, specifically, she's a sweetheart in the context of SOMEONE'S sweetheart. This is her role in the world, a defining dimension of her character. What people would be around to have Tifa as a sweetheart? The man she lives with, raises children with, formed a family with, and has a future with.

1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.

Using honestly asinine standards that you do not apply to any other Final Fantasy couple, and inconsistently with regards to variations.

2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.

Thus, you don't really think it's open ended.

3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.

By twisting and bending them into unrecognizable pretzel shapes. That's not a plus for your side.

4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.

But again, you DON'T use official quotes. You ABUSE official quotes. I called you out on Quote mining time and time again, because you keep on doing it. You ignore context, sometimes entire sentences to squeeze a tortured meaning out of the sentences.

5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

That's a very painful sentence to read. It also does not reflect your actual debating style.

I say in both 4) and 5) that Cloti is a possible interpretation of the Compilation. If I think that Cloti is a possible interpretation, then I think it’s possible that they are. The only thing I’m disputing is whether or not Cloti has been canonized by SE.

Except no, because if it was, you wouldn't have need to bitch and moan about word choice in COLW.

No, I have never stated that fan translations are unreliable to begin with. What I have said is that sometimes fan translations agree with SE’s translations, and sometimes they don’t.

An example of this is Cloud’s statement near the end of FFVII: “I think I can meet her…. there”. I’ve heard some fan translators say that it doesn’t really say that in Japanese. These translators say that the word “I” is not specified, so it could be translated as “we”. These translators also say that “her” is unspecified, so the translation could easily be “them”. These translators are apparently right.

However, it doesn’t even matter that that’s what it really says because SE has translated that sentence twice – once when FFVII was released and a second time when Advent Children was released. The Advent Children translation was indeed changed - but the only change in the new translation was to change “meet” to “find”. The pronouns remained the same.

Therefore, despite the fact that the Japanese text doesn’t really say that, it’s obvious that’s the way SE wants it translated. SE has made it clear that SE wants Cloud to be saying “I think I can find her”, not “I think we can find them”.

So how can we know that all TLS translations correspond to the way SE would translate? The same is true of koibito in CoLWhite. Since koibito can mean “sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend” as well as “beloved”, there is no way TLS can know for sure how SE would translate koibito in CoLWhite until SE translates it.

Once again, I’m being accused of a fallacy when no fallacy exists simply because you have misunderstood my argument. Perhaps you need to read my arguments more carefully.

Actually, what you're being accused of is DISMISSING FAN TRANSLATIONS BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEM WHILE USING OTHERS YOU DO LIKE.
That's Cherry Picking. THAT'S the fallacy you did- and continue- to commit.

The fallacies on that website seem to correspond with many of the fallacies you listed. Here are two that you didn’t include:

3. Argument from authority
Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it.

20. Unstated Major Premise
This fallacy occurs when one makes an argument which assumes a premise which is not explicitly stated. For example, arguing that we should label food products with their cholesterol content because Americans have high cholesterol assumes that: 1) cholesterol in food causes high serum cholesterol; 2) labeling will reduce consumption of cholesterol; and 3) that having a high serum cholesterol is unhealthy. This fallacy is also sometimes called begging the question.

The “Argument from Authority” and the “Unstated Major Premise” are the main fallacies of this TLS article about the Love Triangle being over:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

The person who wrote the “LTD is Over” article is claiming the authority to decide what is canon.

Could someone please relay the message 'Fuck you and stop putting words into my mouth' to Anastar for me? I would appreciate it.
I'm not 'deciding' shit. I'm seeing the writing on the wall, the forest for the trees.
I even said 'Go ahead, translate the captions yourself.'

The person gives evidence to support his opinion. However, SE has never made a statement which conclusively verifies his opinion. He has given evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence to argue against his opinion. Not everyone agrees with his opinion, and his opinion hasn’t been conclusively verified by SE. Furthermore, this person does not work for SE.

My 'opinion' is that the 'For the one I love' page, a page entirely about romantic confessions, says Cloud and Tifa confessed their mutual feelings.
That's a canon confession of love. Thus, by a reasonable man's standard, they would be canonized under the same terms that other pairings, like Ingus/ Sarah or Cecil/Rosa are canonized.

Therefore, this person does not have the authority to speak for SE. He also does not have the authority to decide what SE thinks.

I have the authority to repeat what SE tells me. That's what I did. I presented, simply, quickly, and tongue a bit in cheek- what the Ultimania said.

It's actually YOU who wants to say 'What SE thinks' when you declare 'Variable scenes have no canon outcome' or 'SE is saying the scene varies by linking to a page here'

Furthermore, the article is assuming a premise that’s unspoken by SE: that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally.

That's not a premise. The premise is 'The romantic confessions page is about romantic confessions.' The CONCLUSION is that because we are told a romantic confession happens between Cloud and Tifa, he loves her non-optionally.
Y'know, I'm tempted to just go edit some of this shit into the article just to shut her up.

SE has never stated that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, and SE has never stated that the HA HW scene is canon.

They have stated a mutual romantic confession occurred between Cloud and Tifa. That includes the former and renders irrelevant the latter.

There is some evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence that does not support his opinion.

If you are referencing the fact that deviations are mentioned, that is entirely irrelevant. We are told that this happens. Period, end of.

Therefore, his opinion has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by SE.

I counter accuse that it is you who is being unreasonable, not I.

Note that I am not saying that the arguments in this article have fallacies. The arguments may be right or may be wrong.

The fallacy is that the writer is assuming that these arguments have been conclusively proven when they have not. The Cloti debaters here at TLS won’t admit that the arguments have not been conclusively proven. Instead, the Cloti debaters here at TLS seem to think that somehow they can decide for SE.

I'm not DECIDING for anyone. I am reading a page and seeing that it says Cloud and Tifa mutually confessed. The topic is romantic confessions. There is really no argument being made. Fuck, the only thing I 'argue' for is that hanky panky happened that night based on the 'without words.'

The evidence given in this article is not conclusive except in your opinion. No one can speak for SE until SE has stated what they think. I have brought this up before – I mention it again only because I see the same fallacies I’ve discussed before listed on this website:

Annie, the entire article is nothing BUT SE stating what they think and me paraphrasing it.

You’ve asked me to respond and I have. I think your fallacies are inaccurate largely because you’re accusing me of using arguments that I have not in reality used. I think a large part of the problem is caused by misunderstanding my arguments rather than me using fallacies.

No, they definitely contain fallacies.

I would also suggest that next time you think my arguments contain fallacies, you bring it up at the time I supposedly make the fallacy.

...
...
::Looks at my response to your 'Clerith is definitely true' essay and all the times I screamed fallacy names::

Yeah, you might want to try paying attention when people ACTUALLY DO THAT.

That’s all I will say on the subject of fallacies. I consider this discussion closed.

Funny, given that you spent numerous paragraphs trying to scold me for considering a matter concluded that you're just declaring this 'closed' because it suits you.

If you want to discuss fallacies any further, count me out. I think it would be better to continue my debate with Quex instead of focusing on how we debate.

We cannot debate with you without discussing fallacies. Because you employ them throughout your argumentative process.

If Zealkin would like to discuss fallacies any further, then GiddyUnicorn will be glad to discuss fallacies with her. Unfortunately, he doesn't have time to discuss it with everyone - so his responses will be only to Zealkin.

EDIT: BTW, GiddyUnicorn says he will only debate by PM.

As if we needed more evidence Shroudy wanted to hide from the light of scrutiny.
So, yeah, anyone wants to PM the 'Stop putting words in my mouth while telling me to stop putting words in people's mouths' but to Annie, feel free.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

As if we needed more evidence Shroudy wanted to hide from the light of scrutiny.
So, yeah, anyone wants to PM the 'Stop putting words in my mouth while telling me to stop putting words in people's mouths' but to Annie, feel free.

Doesn't have to be private, told you it's available if you ask for it. Heck I'll ask Quex if she still has her own forum with those 1 on 1 sections,if ya'll wanna see it. Nothing to hide really, just a matter of me tracking every single post.

Sooo...

Three on one?

Public?


Yes? No? Maybe? Still shady?

Also:

Inconsistency
Applying criteria or rules to one belief, claim, argument, or position but not to others. For example, some consumer advocates argue that we need stronger regulation of prescription drugs to ensure their safety and effectiveness, but at the same time argue that medicinal herbs should be sold with no regulation for either safety or effectiveness.

EX: Koibito is mutual for Aerith, when it's in first person and she's talking about herself, but not mutual for Tifa when it's from the creators own words.

Bolded Part: That's not really Aly's so called rule/criteria right? That's someone else's I'm guessing...

 

[Zealkin]

Zealkin

The first fallacy I see here is that you think I’m the only one making these fallacies – the people debating against me are making the same or similar fallacies when responding to me.

And you've just made another one, because I've never said that, sure I was addressing your arguments, but nowhere in my post did I say you could be or were the only person making them. You have however been called out on it numerous times and by Tres and Ryu both(Tres' response:http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=376701&postcount=1993) You have just blatantly ignored them.

In the second place, I think this would be way more productive if you were to observe that the fallacy exists when I make the fallacy. Then we wouldn’t have to search through all my past replies in order to find exactly what I said. In other words, it would be much easier if you observe the fallacy at the time I supposedly make it.

As I stated before people have told you this, but you have denied it, but I will make sure to do so in the future.

I
Sorry, but I never said that the Low affection scene means that Cloud is in love with Aerith. What I actually said is this:

I do believe that’s the first time I brought up the idea. It was in this post here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=375830&postcount=1919
Now, I clearly said that IF Tifa knows that Cloud is still in love with Aerith, that would give her reason not to want a romantic relationship with him. It should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I said that IF Cloud’s still in love with Aerith, he would want anything but friendship with Tifa. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. Then I say that it’s possible within the framework of the Compilation. Again, I only say it’s possible – I never said that it actually did happen. Again, it should be clear that I’m talking about a hypothetical situation. I never said it was definite.

You have not given possibilities however, you have stated something that isn't even implied. No where does it say that Tifa knows that Cloud loves Aerith, nor is it hinted in that statement. By using IF you're pushing away from canon, and that's what we're discussing, tearing down other arguments you don't agree with is not making yours any stronger.

I repeated more than once that I never viewed it as something definite – only a possible situation. Such as in this post:


Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378

Once again, I only say that it’s a possible situation, not something definite. I made the same point in other posts. Yet, I keep getting accused of saying that Cloud loves Aerith in the LA version. Sorry, but I never said that. I only said that it’s a possible explanation of why Cloud and Tifa would not have mutual interest in a romantic relationship with one another.

Then we have been on the wrong page since day 1, this is about canon, not possibilities that can happen, It's possible that Cloud actually enjoyed cross-dressing, it's possible that Red XIII loves Shakespeare, and it's possible that Cid has a bad history with Coffee and moved on with tea, but that's NOT what we're discussing here.

So maybe part of the problem we’re not communicating is that you and others debating me aren’t reading what I say carefully. Maybe part of the problem is that you and others are jumping to conclusions about what I’ve said.

If I didn't take my time to read your posts, I wouldn't have responded to you this way, and I wouldn't have bothered to TRY and understand for that matter.

You have misconstrued what people have said various times on this thread as well. This is why I responded to you with this list, because clarity is needed to debate, and even getting to you to this point where you even WANTED to have clarity with this debate(asking you to actually respond instead of Shroudy) was difficult in itself.

It's not so much jumping to conclusions than just finally understanding what Ryu and others were saying about the continuity of your arguments

For example, the accusations made earlier in this thread that I was trying to prove that Clerith is canon, even though I had repeatedly stated that I thought the LTD is open to interpretation. That’s what finally led to me putting a disclaimer at the top of my posts. It took me literally three hours to find the posts I linked to above, so I’m not going to search for where that controversy started. But there’s plenty here who remember that conflict, including GiddyUnicorn.

And you have to PROVE why it's up to interpretation, all you have been doing is knocking down the highwind scene repeatedly and mismatching page numbers to come to your conclusion, and when I ask about your arguments, you get angry.

The following is another example of where I’m being falsely accused of a fallacy:

I’ve given reason for that in prior posts. Namely, that Aerith and Tifa are the only two date possibilities who are said to be part of the Love Triangle. That was stated in Aerith’s FFVII Profile:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~FFVII Game Manual

Because we are debating the Love Triangle, and because Aerith and Tifa are the only date possibilities who are said by SE to be part of the Love Triangle, then the other date possibilities (Yuffie and Barret) are irrelevant to the Love Triangle Debate.

Since which version of the Highwind scene a player gets is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be considered when discussing the Highwind scene. It’s stated in more than once place in the Ultimania’s that which version of the Highwind scene you get is determined by Tifa’s affection level. Examples:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Since Tifa’s affection level determines which version of the Highwind scene you get, and Tifa’s affection level is determined by the Date Mechanism, then the Date Mechanism should be part of the discussion about the Highwind scene.

I know you think that the HA version is canon, but I’ve yet to see proof that it is. I’ve seen your evidence for thinking that the HA version is canon, but I don’t agree that your evidence conclusively proves that the HA version is canon.

So it's not up to your standards of using a flow chart to get your point across then? Because all I did to come to that conclusion was play the game and read a few sentences, sentences in English that you learn to read the context of in most English classes.

Your proof is a statement from square saying: "so and so is canon" but once again you fail to realize that this will NEVER happen. They have never used the word and they never will, context is your friend, and you refuse to see this.

And through your explanation you have once again used false dichotomy. You mention the Date mechanism because it is used to get either Higwind scene. The date mechanism involves 4 CHARACTERS. Yet you continue to hop back to the Aerith quote of the love triangle, limiting it to two once more, You're using these two examples in tandem without consideration of the other. THIS IS A FALLACY.

Once again, you’re misunderstanding me. I never said that koibito is used mutually for Aeirth, but not for Tifa.

I never said that koibito definitely has a mutual meaning in either case, only that the word koibito can have a mutual meaning. You linked me to a post by Rygdea where he agreed that the word can mean that the affection is mutual as well as that the affection is one-sided.

Since there is no official translation of CoL, then we do not know how SE would translate koibito in CoL. The TLS translators have arbitrarily decided that koibito has a one-sided meaning in CoLWhite, but that is making a presumption. It’s just as possible that koibito in CoLWhite means mutual affection between Cloud and Aerith.

Now, SE officially translated koibto as “sweetheart” in the Reunion Files. However, it only says that Tifa is a sweetheart. That page and the facing page never specify that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. The text on that page and the facing page also does not imply in any way that Tifa is Cloud’s sweetheart. You have only arrived at that conclusion from your own interpretation of the story.

You used inconsistency twice, again.
Danseru:
If she uses this stand then she should not include Johnny or Rude in the LT either. In Tifa's description she was "like a mother, a koibito and a close ally in battle." If the LT only includes Cloud, Aerith and Tifa, then only Cloud or Aerith can apply to koibito. We all agree that it's not Aerith. Then the last person in the triangle is Cloud whose profiles indicates that Tifa is an important woman and the mother of his family, plus we have that 8 quotes of deeply communicated feelings between them. Therefore, Tifa can only be a koibito to Cloud.

Once again, I never said this. I did not say that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple. I said that it’s not canon that Cloud and Tifa are a couple, but that it is a possible for them to be a couple on an optional basis. I even state that in my Disclaimer:

Que sums this up nicely:

You missed her point entirely and this is a perfect example of what I talked about in the beginning of my post. Her point is that you're putting what you see on the same level as what we're told. Like before you said Jessie, Wedge and Biggs "belong together" according to you, then used it as an example of how people "belong together" when it's not romantic; the problem here is Nojima was the one who said Cloud and Tifa belong together. He is above you in this debate. You can't make up an example and then act like it has the same weight as something a creator said. What you say, or what you think does NOT hold the same weight as a creator statement. You can't say "Well I didn't see this therefore it can't be no matter what the creator says!" Not in a debate about canon anyway.

If you don't want "us" deciding for SE, then don't do it yourself.

I never said that there would never be an adequate explanation for the LTD. Who knows? At some point, SE may conclusively portray that Cloud currently loves Tifa non-optionally OR that Cloud continues to love Aerith non-optionally OR that Cloud loves both of them non-optionally.

I’ve never said that the LT can never be solved - just that the current available evidence hasn’t solved the LT conclusively YET. Yes, we have received more information and yes the Compilation has continued. However, as of now, myself and other people do not think your evidence is adequate to solve the LT conclusively.

And proof has been given to you, essays have been written, and you yourself have yet to prove yourself without the use of fallacies. You have to prove why you think we're wrong, that's how a debate works, acting like you're being neutral isn't working.

No, I have never stated that fan translations are unreliable to begin with. What I have said is that sometimes fan translations agree with SE’s translations, and sometimes they don’t.

An example of this is Cloud’s statement near the end of FFVII: “I think I can meet her…. there”. I’ve heard some fan translators say that it doesn’t really say that in Japanese. These translators say that the word “I” is not specified, so it could be translated as “we”. These translators also say that “her” is unspecified, so the translation could easily be “them”. These translators are apparently right.

However, it doesn’t even matter that that’s what it really says because SE has translated that sentence twice – once when FFVII was released and a second time when Advent Children was released. The Advent Children translation was indeed changed - but the only change in the new translation was to change “meet” to “find”. The pronouns remained the same.

Therefore, despite the fact that the Japanese text doesn’t really say that, it’s obvious that’s the way SE wants it translated. SE has made it clear that SE wants Cloud to be saying “I think I can find her”, not “I think we can find them”.

So how can we know that all TLS translations correspond to the way SE would translate? The same is true of koibito in CoLWhite. Since koibito can mean “sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend” as well as “beloved”, there is no way TLS can know for sure how SE would translate koibito in CoLWhite until SE translates it.

You use a fan translation of Aerith being engraved in Clouds heart when the English translation states that she's someone that he'll never forget. THEN you state that we cannot use fan translation because they're not official, you're cherry picking that's a fallacy.

The only fallacy here is that you apparently consider these two issues to be resolved in your favor. These aren’t fallacies – these are issues on which we disagree.

Just because you disagree with my conclusions doesn’t automatically mean that you’re right and I’m wrong. I’ve given evidence and reasons that back up my conclusions. My evidence and reasons have yet to be proven right or wrong. You’ve also given evidence and reasons to back up your conclusions. Your evidence and reasons have yet to be proven right or wrong.
Neither of our conclusions has been conclusively proven to be right or wrong as of yet. We merely disagree, and we both have evidence to back up what we think. So don’t dismiss my reasoning as a fallacy yet.

complex feelings are irrefutably MORE THAN ONE THING. Tifa being jealous is irrefutably SOMETHING SINGULAR. That's not us disagreeing these are basic rules of grammar.

We have repeatedly given you quotes of Cloud being happy with Tifa and the children, and you continue to say that he was alone, that not me disagreeing with you, he was not alone when he was with them, it has been stated, it is a fact.

These are in fact more fallacies.

Need I go on? I can find similar problems with the rest of the fallacies you listed.

Yes because ignoring my points is being fallacious as well.

These in particular are the most fervently used by you, and you just skipped past them:

Ad ignorantiam
The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don’t know that it isn’t true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. It is therefore possible, they argue, that the brain may be capable of transmitting signals at a distance.

In order to make a positive claim, however, positive evidence for the specific claim must be presented. The absence of another explanation only means that we do not know – it doesn’t mean we get to make up a specific explanation.

EX: When you constantly state- "We don't have evidence that so and so did not happen"

Tu quoque
Literally, you too. This is an attempt to justify wrong action because someone else also does it. "My evidence may be invalid, but so is yours."

EX: "That's just your opinion"

Now, that leads to fallacies committed by you and the other Cloti debaters here. Here is a list of fallacies:

http://celebrationofreason.com/logical_fallacies.htm

Me and other cloti debtors? That is an article that Ryu wrote and can talk to you about himself. I am not Ryu, Ryu is only one person. You're grouping us all together like cattle which is an insulting generalization.

You asked why I didn't list other people's fallacies, that's because I am arguing with YOU in particular, you're now attacking Ryu who you refuse to even respond to, not only is that cowardly, but it's rude and dishonest.

The fallacies on that website seem to correspond with many of the fallacies you listed. Here are two that you didn’t include:

3. Argument from authority
Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it.

20. Unstated Major Premise
This fallacy occurs when one makes an argument which assumes a premise which is not explicitly stated. For example, arguing that we should label food products with their cholesterol content because Americans have high cholesterol assumes that: 1) cholesterol in food causes high serum cholesterol; 2) labeling will reduce consumption of cholesterol; and 3) that having a high serum cholesterol is unhealthy. This fallacy is also sometimes called begging the question.

I didn't include them because I was listing the ones that I could correlate to your arguments immediately, because there are still tons more i can add, but okay.

The “Argument from Authority” and the “Unstated Major Premise” are the main fallacies of this TLS article about the Love Triangle being over:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

The person who wrote the “LTD is Over” article is claiming the authority to decide what is canon. The person gives evidence to support his opinion. However, SE has never made a statement which conclusively verifies his opinion. He has given evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence to argue against his opinion. Not everyone agrees with his opinion, and his opinion hasn’t been conclusively verified by SE. Furthermore, this person does not work for SE.

I notice your saying "The person" but you've been told who has written the article, and this singular person does not stand for everyone who debates with you.

Using evidence to support your opinion is how you write critical analysis', that's not being dishonest it's how you write a literary criticism, and if you're accusing Ryu of doing this you're accusing thousands of other well learned critics who use the same methods, as being fallacious and dishonest. By using evidence to support your opinion you're proving an argument, it's not like there's a "disclaimer" stating that anyone who disagrees with him will be shot..

He's not claiming authority, he's using what authorial figures have given us, there is a clear difference.

Therefore, this person does not have the authority to speak for SE. He also does not have the authority to decide what SE thinks.

And yet the accuser is actually the accused in this case since you do this all the time.

An example is, i don't know, you making up an ENITRE highwind scene scenario that NEVER happens.

Furthermore, the article is assuming a premise that’s unspoken by SE: that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. SE has never stated that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, and SE has never stated that the HA HW scene is canon. There is some evidence to support his opinion, but there is also evidence that does not support his opinion. Therefore, his opinion has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by SE.

You JUST said that we can't go claiming things that Square Enix has said, and yet you continue to use fallacies, about something "unspoken". I know about this unspoken thing too, and me and other have been trying to show you this not very secret unspoken thing for awhile now. This unspoken thing is context, it is indirect characterization, and you continue to ignore it, just as you continue to use the same fallacies that you falsely accuse other of.

SQUARE WILL NEVER SAY THAT CECIL AND ROSA/CLOUD AND TIFA/ TIDUS AND YUNA ARE "CANON"

They have never used the term canon before and I doubt they'll start now.
Use context, and you will find that unspoken thing.

Note that I am not saying that the arguments in this article have fallacies. The arguments may be right or may be wrong.

And he used evidence from the narrative to show why his opinions are more than just that.

The fallacy is that the writer is assuming that these arguments have been conclusively proven when they have not. The Cloti debaters here at TLS won’t admit that the arguments have not been conclusively proven. Instead, the Cloti debaters here at TLS seem to think that somehow they can decide for SE.

WHO are you talking to? To me or to Ryu, or to anyone else that you've decided to ignore because they were being too "rude". I didn't write that article, do you see me calling out other cleriths about their arguments? I'm talking about yours and you should be addressing mine.

The evidence given in this article is not conclusive except in your opinion. No one can speak for SE until SE has stated what they think. I have brought this up before – I mention it again only because I see the same fallacies I’ve discussed before listed on this website:

http://celebrationofreason.com/logical_fallacies.htm

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT THIS ARTICLE UP. NOT ME!
I could care less if you were actually talking about what I was saying directly to you, but you're now just using this to indirectly attack people.
People, may I add, that you REFUSE to respond to!

You’ve asked me to respond and I have. I think your fallacies are inaccurate largely because you’re accusing me of using arguments that I have not in reality used. I think a large part of the problem is caused by misunderstanding my arguments rather than me using fallacies.

And nothing has been resolved, and you still think that you haven't been at fault for anything. You cannot see that you have not actually argued with me about my fallacies, but someone else who can't even respond to you.

I would also suggest that next time you think my arguments contain fallacies, you bring it up at the time I supposedly make the fallacy.

People have done so, and will continue to do so.

That’s all I will say on the subject of fallacies. I consider this discussion closed.

And nothing has been resolved :/

If you want to discuss fallacies any further, count me out. I think it would be better to continue my debate with Quex instead of focusing on how we debate. If Zealkin would like to discuss fallacies any further, then GiddyUnicorn will be glad to discuss fallacies with her. Unfortunately, he doesn't have time to discuss it with everyone - so his responses will be only to Zealkin.

It's not like we were talking about them because it suited my fancy, but because arguing with you has become convoluted and impossible, and you have not yet realized this...

 

[Octo]

I'm sick of the lumping in of everyone here who doesn't agree that C/A is viable as 'the clotis' 'Clotis say this, Clotis say that' It's insulting. I hate this partisan crap, we're all just people having a debate. I don't tar all 'C/A' supporters with the same brush and I'd expect the same courtesy in return.

If you want to quote what someone has said then do so, but dont just put stuff like: 'the Cloti argument is.....'

You know what, I actually think the only way to move on with this is to create a separate thread debating whether or not Cloud loved Aerith and excluding all mention of Tifa (in fact lets make mention of Tifa a bannable offense ) I have yet to see, despite many requests by others in this thread, a single shred of evidence that proves that Cloud loved Aerith. All I have seen is attempts to undermine and discredit the evidence for Cloud and Tifa.

It's possible to give evidence for C/T without even mentioning Aerith at all. I'd like to see if the reverse is true and if anyone is willing to present such evidence without mentioning Tifa.

I have thrown down the gauntlet!

 

[Danseru-kun]

A curious sort of open where you always argue Anti-C/T but never Anti-C/A.

Yeah, I want her to tell us why Clerith isn't canon either. Why she thinks that Clerith is not canon even if she agrees with that interpretation.

And Octo, I personally think a new thread is unnecessary, and most of the arguments there would just be the same as was written (and rebutted) before; Cloud wanting to see Aerith again, flower fields in AC is the Promised Land, Aerith engraved in Cloud's heart, undying feeling, Cloud and Aerith together in other games as if SE is telling us something, the Love commercial, koibito in COLW, Amano art etc.

EDIT:

Sooo...

Three on one?

Public?


Yes? No? Maybe? Still shady?

I told you that if you want one on one I'll happily stay out of the debate for a while. Taking on three people at the same time gives the impression that we're using numbers against you then some people would say "look how three clotis cannot beat one clerith!" Or if you're losing the arguments; "it wasn't fair from the start, there were 3 of them and you're just only 1 person. your so brave!"

 

[Octo]

And Octo, I personally think a new thread is unnecessary, and most of the arguments there would just be the same as was written before; Cloud wanting to see Aerith again, flower fields in AC, Aerith engraved in Cloud's heart, undying feeling, Cloud and Aerith together in other games as if SE is telling us something, the Love commercial, koibito in COLW, Amano art etc.

Oh I'm quite sure thats what would be brought up, but every single one of those claims can be refuted. Nothing there can prove that Cloud loved Aerith can it? Its all just wishy washy crap. I know that SE havent been as obvious as they could have been with C/T but at the very least we know from the lifestream sequence that Cloud had feelings for Tifa (even if people want to argue past tense with that) What equivalent is there for C/A? Nothing.

Cloud had ample oppurtunity to show romantic interest with Aerith, on two very obvious occasions (the date and the non-optional Cait Sith temple scene) and I have not seen any explanation as to why Cloud remains oblivious/silent on these occasions.

I feel that the Tifa element of this argument just allows for stalling, theres so many times where we've been sidetracked by stuff to do with how Cloud was unhappy with Tifa, or Tifa was forcing Cloud to do her bidding

 

[Dashell]

Doesn't have to be private, told you it's available if you ask for it. Heck I'll ask Quex if she still has her own forum with those 1 on 1 sections,if ya'll wanna see it. Nothing to hide really, just a matter of me tracking every single post.

Sooo...

Three on one?

Public?


Yes? No? Maybe? Still shady?

Also:

Bolded Part: That's not really Aly's so called rule/criteria right? That's someone else's I'm guessing...

Go ahead and use it if you want:
http://www.forgottencity.sixserve.net/index.php

Let me know if you had an account there previously and need your password ;

It's possible to give evidence for C/T without even mentioning Aerith at all. I'd like to see if the reverse is true and if anyone is willing to present such evidence without mentioning Tifa.

Now to be fair here, Anastar's CLerith essay that she posted way back didn't actually undermine C/T at all (That I remember)

It just.. you know used commercials and figurines to prove points