The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[OneWingedDemon]

I've seen you mention how both sides have similar proofs for their pairings.

...this is a joke, right?

 

[Vendel]

Also
Shroudy-
Since I've seen you lurking about here, I've seen you mention how both sides have similar proofs for their pairings. While I don't disagree completely, I wouldn't agree to Clerith and Cloti being on equal footing. I was wondering if maybe you could go into more detail about this here since I think a few people here (myself included) would be interested in discussing something like that.

Q we have been over the commercial from 1997 and the "undying feelings" and the DoC game booklet where it says Aerith is in Cloud's heart....or was it that he would never forget her? And Aerith as a parasite. And uh.......that's about it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I just thought of something, was the phrase 想いを通わせ ever used to describe the low affection scene, or was it used with a screenshot of the LA scene?

Was it used to deliberately describe the HA scene? If not, how many times was 想いを通わせ used along with "Words aren't the only way..." (in screenshot or in text?) What are the examples?

Because if 想いを通わせ is never used together with a LA scene, then there's is nothing in canon to indicate that it can be used for the LA scene.

 

[Ryushikaze]

...this is a joke, right?

Of course it's a joke.
Shroudy didn't mean for it to be one, but that makes the joke all the funnier.

Q we have been over the commercial from 1997 and the "undying feelings" and the DoC game booklet where it says Aerith is in Cloud's heart....or was it that he would never forget her? And Aerith as a parasite. And uh.......that's about it.

You skipped Cait Sith's totally trustworthy tickets.

I just thought of something, was the phrase 想いを通わせ ever used to describe the low affection scene, or was it used with a screenshot of the LA scene?

To my knowledge, no.

Was it used to deliberately describe the HA scene? If not, how many times was 想いを通わせ used along with "Words aren't the only way..." (in screenshot or in text?) What are the examples?

Because if 想いを通わせ is never used together with a LA scene, then there's is nothing in canon to indicate that it can be used for the LA scene.

Yes, but we're dealing with the argument that it's never been specifically shown not to apply to the low scene, in other words, we're being asked to prove a somewhat self contradictory negative.

 

[Dashell]

So our dear friend Tres noticed something today. Thanks to him we now have evidence that every use of 想いを通わせる (at least in the UO) is speaking of the High Affection scene (AND NO SMART ASS COMMENTS LIKE HURR DURR ONLY IDIOTS THOUGHT IT WASN'T PLZ K AND THX). Gonna just c/p some stuff he sent me.

First we have this in Tifa's profile:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

Doesn't say what feelings right? Well right underneath it on the same page we have this:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

No one would deny that feelings of desire is love (I hope)
Next to the High Affection details it says in a small grey text box that I honestly can't even read on my scan "解説" ("explanation"). Meaning it's explaining what it was talking about.

So, that specific use of 想いを通わせる is explained as being about feelings of desire. Which means the use of it in Cloud's profile is as well, since it's talking about the same event.


So...

yeah


(will get a scan later on after work)

 

[AerithLives]

Could we do a poll on this? Or has there been one done?

 

[Master Bates]

Could we do a poll on this? Or has there been one done?

Because I feel like being helpful.

HELLO

DUNDUNDUN

And the one I believe is the most accurate poll and poll result

Enjoy.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Delete this post if this isn't relevant. How about old polls in other neutral sites? I'm curious on how the LTD progressed through time. After FFVII and prior Advent Children, is the percentage 50-50, or did Cloti/Clerith dominate? After AC, what happened? Do we have Japanese polls? I'm really curious about what the Japanese thinks about the LTD.

Spoiler

Oh BTW, God willing, I'll be attending Japanese classes this summer in our university. I'll ask real college instructors about teh translations.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Honestly, Danseru, I'd not bother asking the teacher about this. Not unless you can get an affadavit or video of it, because 'My Sensai[sic]/ Japanese friend said' is one of the oldest ploys in this particular game.

I will note, it's been a full month, and no reply from the Clerith corner. I shall accept their concessions pro tem.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Honestly, Danseru, I'd not bother asking the teacher about this. Not unless you can get an affadavit or video of it, because 'My Sensai[sic]/ Japanese friend said' is one of the oldest ploys in this particular game.

I will note, it's been a full month, and no reply from the Clerith corner. I shall accept their concessions pro tem.

I know that of course. It depends on the sensei I guess. If he's friendly I'll take a video, if not, an email or affidavit then. And this is still not 100% sure but I'm hoping it will be.

I don't know maybe we should ask Quex or Tres if activity's going on over the CA forum. They may be posting new arguments there that there are not willing to test here.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why would any of you revive this?

We've been getting on pretty well over at the CxA forum. There have been apologies for past transgressions from all corners. Everyone is trying to approach the arguments from an understanding of the other person's perspective -- while reminding oneself that we're all human here, all deserve respect, and that this is just a pretty retarded disagreement in the big scheme of things.

Obviously, there's still disagreement, but I think we've gotten mutual respect at this point, and that's better than an opponent conceding defeat.

When I first started posting here, what I originally wanted was peace between the shipping groups in this fandom. I lost sight of that for a good while, but if a little bit of that respect for one another has been achieved, then I feel like I accomplished something after all.

Concerning the primary inquiry, I don't really want to post in this thread about any of the new arguments that have arisen. Both because of the "What happens at X" rule we have here, and in the spirit of not encouraging commentary on their arguments here when they may not (i.e. don't) want them to be picked apart in a place they aren't comfortable debating.

While true that they could come here and respond to those comments, they still find this forum pretty intimidating after the last time. And now that I've had time to step back from it for a while and think about it, I can see why.

We all sort of overwhelmed them (Anastar especially) with so many of us responding to the same posts in the same dissecting manner. It was simply too much to reply to in a timely fashion, especially when we were replying to the first installments of the episodic responses we got instead of waiting.

I gave Anastar a hard time for that response style when she was here, but I see now I was being unfair to her about it. Now that I've been in her position over there, I see how tough it is to try keeping up.

She has been very understanding, though, and -- concerned we were being overwhelmed -- even reminded the rest of the forum that it's just me and Que debating with them. Furthermore, Anastar and I have had a really nice debate for the past month or two. It's gone about a week at a time between complete responses, but I've found that waiting for her to completely finish and then posting my complete responses to her complete responses (it takes me about a week to get a full response to her as well) has been a much more relaxed system.

So, I just want to put it out there that I misjudged her quite a bit before, she's apologized for everything, I've apologized for everything, and there's no reason to hate each other over this shit. I think that if her approach was hostile before, it's probably due in part at least a little to feeling like we'd made fun of her. There have been lots of hurt feelings in all this, and damn near all of us who discuss this to any degree are guilty of it.

In the end, shit just ain't that serious when we've got crazy politicians trying to make second-class citizens of women in the U.S., the future of our nation's healthcare in a constant state of uncertainty, and the freedom of the Internet we use to carry out such debates in jeopardy. It's just not worth hating each other over.

 

[Dashell]

I will note, it's been a full month, and no reply from the Clerith corner. I shall accept their concessions pro tem.

I don't mean to be harsh but I think responses like this are kind of a problem. Saying things like this is one of the main reasons they feel unwelcome here. They know if they don't respond right away you or someone is going to say something like this. So they don't want to spend every day reading this forum and responding about their favorite fictional pairing... nothing wrong with that.

As Tres said we've been debating over at CxA (mostly him) and you know what? They've responded timley to every post and been quite polite. In fact, it's been about a week since I checked the topic and not a one of them has rushed me so far to respond or said anything like that. They've been super kind and considerate to even bend the rules a bit so we could discuss these things with them. And it's been fun. It's been a very respectable debate and I like that.


I really don't see why we can't be the same toward them, honestly.

I gave Anastar a hard time for that response style when she was here, but I see now I was being unfair to her about it. Now that I've been in her position over there, I see how tough it is to try keeping up.

Word

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't mean to be harsh but I think responses like this are kind of a problem. Saying things like this is one of the main reasons they feel unwelcome here. They know if they don't respond right away you or someone is going to say something like this.

In all fairness, a month is not 'right away.'

So they don't want to spend every day reading this forum and responding about their favorite fictional pairing... nothing wrong with that.

No, they just do it on their own forum. And if they were just enjoying said pairing rather than asserting 'it is so' or making other claims about the story as written, I would give no fucks.

As Tres said we've been debating over at CxA (mostly him) and you know what? They've responded timley to every post and been quite polite. In fact, it's been about a week since I checked the topic and not a one of them has rushed me so far to respond or said anything like that.

I'd like to again assert that taking her time and formulating a complete response was urged at several points during Anastar's stay here.
And concession of points is a debate formality. If we're gonna call this shit a debate, might as well treat it with some of the formalities involved. It is, after all, the civil way to do things.

They've been super kind and considerate to even bend the rules a bit so we could discuss these things with them. And it's been fun. It's been a very respectable debate and I like that.

The fact that they have to bend the rules to allow the discussion to happen is still a problem.

I really don't see why we can't be the same toward them, honestly.

We can and have been. Certainly not all the time, but they have not always been civil to us, either.

Word

I am still unsympathetic, given that she was deliberately misrepresenting words I wrote and refusing to adjust her representation of them despite my repeated and yes, increasingly venomous notes about her misrepresentation.
A major thrust of her arguments and concerns were with material I had directly produced, and she refused to discuss them with me.
You want to discuss being unfair regarding her response speed, that's fine.
It's really her response criteria that were the problem.

 

[Blade]

I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a few weeks now, due to posting limitations, so understand, this is out of sorts, and is kinda-sorta a response to the last few posts I read in this thread, so I apologize if I "rewind the clock" a bit...let's see...
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7360&page=181
First, let me sum up the premise, or rather, sum up the premise SUMMED up for me!

Anyway, yeah, Blade never cared much for shipping in general, nor the LTD in particular, even before AC came out. That said, he loves the character of Cloud, and considers it highly worthwhile to try getting inside his head.

I do think I remember him making a comment or two that a CxT outcome seemed likely given time, but he was always of the opinion that Cloud was pretty fucked up inside and wasn't ready for a romance with anyone during any of the time we get to spend with him.

Long story short, he don't give a fuck about the LTD or metatextual input, but it was interesting to see his thoughts on this nonetheless.

Emphasis on "Getting inside Cloud's Head"...

Let me be clear: I'm not the type to use lack of evidence on Tifa as evidence for Aerith...to me that's just illogical (OBJECTION! LEADING THE WITNESS...ER...POTENTIAL LOVE INTEREST!)

Also, regarding the idea of "point of contact constitutes relationship" idea...again, just because Cloud MIGHT have responded to Tifa's feelings doesn't mean they were permanently established...and what's more, to me, an unstable relationship that leads to arguments doesn't really define a "ship" in my observation of it.

I'm not entirely clear on the concept of "Survivor's Guilt", but let's refresh the definition a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor_guilt

The feeling that you were WRONG to survive an ordeal...hmm...Cloud's emotions on Zack aren't the same as they are for Aerith, based on what I know of how he felt towards the former. Cloud respected and looked up to Zack in many ways and for many different situations in which he'd encountered his friend. When Zack "passed the Pride of SOLDIER" on to Cloud...that constitutes a rather different emotion than Guilt in my mind...Cloud says he "will live on for both of us", that's what he decided. However, his feelings for Aerith are closer to Guilt because of the idea that not only was he 'not himself' prior to her death, but in several instances he HAD in fact tried to kill her under Sephiroth's influence...and if that weren't bad enough, it was HE who handed the Black Materia over to Sephiroth in a somewhat traumatic "semi-existential" persona sort of way.

To me there are several [Clouds] (not to say he has multiple personality disorder, but just hear me out):

---There is the [Childhood-Cloud]...the one with a dream and an ideal to fulfill and pursue, he's the foundation. [Childhood-Cloud] is his Id (his desires). He wants Tifa and Sephiroth and anyone else to recognize him for who he wants to be. This Cloud is "competitive" with Tifa, and not so much desiring of her, which is part of what causes her to argue with Cloud a lot over trivial things.

---Then there is the [Failure-Cloud]...this one stacks on guilt like you wouldn't believe, he blames himself for failing to become a member of SOLDIER, he lacks confidence and is hard-pressed to believe he can achieve anything...he is also pressured by Guilt from his Mother to some extent to establish a relationship with a woman...so part of [Failure-Cloud] is his Libido (sex drive). [Failure-Cloud] gets even bigger when he lets Aerith die, lets down his friends and betrays them...and also tends to treat Geostigma as a "personal sin" as well. [Failure-Cloud] is also an extention of [Deconstructed-Cloud] and [Doubting-Cloud] by default because anything Cloud DID or DIDN'T DO...is automatically Cloud's fault according to Cloud, like a bad habit of apologizing too much. This Cloud refuses to face Tifa and wears a Shinra Guard Mask and pretends to not exist...even going to great lengths to avoid the truth, even beyond the truth Cloud understood long before [Deconstructed-Cloud] was revealed or created. [Failure-Cloud] is also the repressed pain in Cloud's heart from the traumas he has experienced, such as Nibelheim burning, his mother's death, Zack's death, and most importantly Aerith's death.

---Next is [Zack-Cloud]...he's Cloud's Superego and confidence...his sense of what he should do or decide to do or the right THING to do at any given moment...because of how disjointed his sense of justice is, he tends to think of things in simplistic mechanical or childish terms like he does in the "Case of Tifa" with Denzel, by classifying them as "Dangerous places", "Places with lotsa people", "Places to buy stuff", "Places with few people", etc etc. Part of [Zack-Cloud] is cocky, cold, disinterested, and selfish, mostly as a safety mechanism to protect his inner selves from getting exposed (namely [Failure-Cloud]). A small portion of [Zack-Cloud] shares [Childhood-Cloud]'s ambition and achieves it in some fashion, likewise [Zack-Cloud] shares a bit of that sense of flashiness that [Childhood-Cloud] has, along with part of [Failure-Cloud]'s libido...that is to say, he wants to impress the ladies with his actions...but that's closer to his Ego than his Superego...it also relates to his physical activities (such as Snowboarding, Riding a Makocycle, Chocobo Breeding/Racing etc)...he looks up to Zack's physical prowess and quintessential "do-everything-and-be-awesome-at-it" Rennaisance Man attitude...however this part of his Superego can be quite shallow and misconstrued as isolating...since the emotions of [Failure-Cloud] tend to seep through. [Zack-Cloud] is the inherited persona of Zack's "Pride of a SOLDIER" that was passed on to Cloud. Also worth noting, [Zack-Cloud] is prone to lying or acting childish and hiding the truth or running from it (by picking fights or going to a battle without saying a word)...which is a facet of [Deconstructed-Cloud] AND [Failure-Cloud]. Most importantly, though, [Zack-Cloud] was the shell that fostered [Failure-Cloud] and [Deconstructed-Cloud] while they formed in Cloud's Psyche...the crux of this was meant to keep Cloud stable, but eventually cracked open and became [Deconstructed-Cloud]...all the same, [Zack-Cloud] retains some semblance of existence through [Doubting-Cloud].

---Next you have [Deconstructed-Cloud], otherwise known as "Puppet Cloud"...which is actually the deconstruction and rebuilding of Cloud's Psyche (originally born of [Failure-Cloud]) into something that is "not Cloud". By that I mean, he is all the "truths" that Sephiroth, Hojo, and everyone else revealed to Cloud and that Cloud struggles to deny...it is part guilt, part trauma, part stress, part breakdown, and part irony and lies that became semi-truth which later turns to despair that construct this Cloud. This is the Cloud we observe talking to Hojo about his status as a Sephiroth Clone failure. He becomes dejected that he is a failure, thus piling more guilt on [Failure-Cloud]. He is also the Cloud that openly gives the Black Materia to Sephiroth. He is easily manipulated. He follows orders and does what he's told without opinion or question or denial. He admits whatever people say of him. He's a puppet. Though he is capable of rational thoughts...they are only "rational" to him alone in a sad sort of way. [Deconstructed-Cloud] is, more or less, the memory of Sephiroth burned into his psyche (the likes of which Sephiroth uses to maintain form). As a side-note, I liken [Deconstructed-Cloud] to the persona of Garland from Dissidia...he basically wallows in despair and admits the existence of things as inevitable reality regardless of his personal self-respect and own wishes...just short of actually "enjoying the despair" much like Garland or Sephiroth would. The only difference between [Deconstructed-Cloud] and Sephiroth himself...is that [Deconstructed-Cloud] was built from [Failure-Cloud], [Childhood-Cloud], and the broken fragments of [Zack-Cloud] that Tifa's feelings fostered in him when he recovered from Mako-Poisoning. Thus he does not share the confidence that Sephiroth had in his own existence, but has enough faith in becoming more than he himself is admitted to be...thus he could not "enjoy the despair" (like laughing madly at a sick joke like it was a tragic comedy of errors). It was [Failure-Cloud]'s "fallibility" that protected Cloud and allowed him to regain his sense of self which ultimately became [Doubting-Cloud].

---After this you have [Doubting-Cloud]...this one's a little harder to explain. [Doubting-Cloud] is the result of Cloud's mental defenses being traumatized by the existence of [Deconstructed-Cloud]. [Doubting-Cloud] is the Cloud that constantly denies what others say is truth in order to protect the self he "wishes to be true" (which is a mix of [Childhood-Cloud], [Zack-Cloud], and a large portion of [Failure-Cloud] in an inverted way)...even things that those dear to him say is truth...such as Tifa's feelings. [Doubting-Cloud] also doubts that he can be redeemed by Aerith's words of comfort despite her death. He is also constantly questioning his personal motivations at every turn, and is ever cautious of results...this is where the hidden lies and miscommunication come from where he [doesn't like to tell Tifa the truth because she'll get mad] or he [doesn't want to hurt anyone] or he [doesn't want anyone to be sad for him due to Geostigma] or he [doubts he can save anyone]. Keep in mind that [Doubting-Cloud] doesn't really "do much" as far as communication goes...most of what he does involves as Tifa put it "dillydally shillyshally"...that is to say, hesitation that lead to in-action that lead to misunderstanding. He also makes excuses in order to hide [Failure-Cloud], [Zack-Cloud] (when he's inappropriately overzealous and childish), and the dark feelings and memories he gained from [Deconstructed-Cloud]. [Doubting-Cloud], is...sad to say...a big chunk of Cloud's Ego...his sense of self, that happened as a result of exposure of all his other selves, which he is ashamed to show others. [Doubting-Cloud] is probably first seen just prior to the Highwind Scene (High Affection version)...though Tifa exposes her feelings for him, Cloud's Doubt prevents him from properly receiving it or thinking he deserves it or even completely UNDERSTANDING it, much like his feelings for Aerith. [Doubting-Cloud] starts to clear up after he learns he isn't alone and that he only had to forgive himself in the first place...[Doubting-Cloud] slowly but surely evolves into [Trusting-Cloud].

---Finally you have [Trusting-Cloud]...he is the complete package, take-it-or-leave-it Cloud. His psyche has settled down and has made the distinction between HIS WILL and that of others (namely Sephiroth's), he believes in his friends (for the most part, Reno might be a pain in the neck), he's brimming with confidence from [Zack-Cloud] (his super-ego) and has come to accept the dreams of [Childhood-Cloud] as part of himself...and even willing to accept [Deconstructed-Cloud]...albeit in a different form than something he needs to hide OR express...and most importantly, he has accepted [Failure-Cloud] and learned to let go of his failure and pain and rebuild himself. You probably don't see this Cloud until after Dirge of Cerberus...but even so, this Cloud is the one most likely to get along with Tifa and come to terms with Aerith and even recieve Denzel and Marlene's feelings.

In essence these [Clouds] are part of Cloud's mind healing it's own scars and adapting to the future and becoming the man he wants to be. Now, this process can get in the way of his relationship with Aerith or Tifa...OR it can foster it. Mistakes will be made, and already have...and he may pay for them by being scolded by Tifa, but they'll still be friends even if not lovers, so that part is also important...same goes for Aerith's and Zack's relationship with Cloud and his understanding of their feelings (I'm fairly certain Cloud was very perplexed about Aerith and considered her less of a love interest and more of a mystery he just couldn't solve...which is the case with a lot of women of mystique that you "accidentally meet", as Cloud did.)

It's my belief that Cloud's emotions needed to sort themselves out for quite a long time before he could begin to feel things like Love, that's why I broke down this explanation in such a way.

You people can disagree with it, if you want, but this is just how I see Cloud.

Anyway I just wanted to say that. I don't care so much about the pairing, but I DO CARE about Cloud's happiness with Tifa as a result...I hope he does have a more peaceful life after all this is over...

That's all I have to say on that.

 

[Vendel]

It's my belief that Cloud's emotions needed to sort themselves out for quite a long time before he could begin to feel things like Love, that's why I broke down this explanation in such a way.

I'm sorry, but at what point in the compilation is Cloud supposed to be able to feel love? Because prior to being a lab rat and post LS sequence I see this as an absurd statement.

Having difficulty expressing your feelings is not the same as not being able to feel them.

“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”

“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Interesting analysis, Blade. I disagree with a lot of it, but agree with other parts.

The main points I disagree with are what Vendel already brought up, and that Cloud's brief, pointed descriptions of places in answer to Denzel and Marlene's questions reflects an aloofness. I took that more as a reflection of Cloud being a bit simple-minded (not in a bad way; he's just simple) and child-like. It was said his answers satisfied the kids, so I took that as something of an indication that they think the same way on stuff like this.

Thanks again for sharing all that.

 

[Blade]

I'm sorry, but at what point in the compilation is Cloud supposed to be able to feel love? Because prior to being a lab rat and post LS sequence I see this as an absurd statement.

Having difficulty expressing your feelings is not the same as not being able to feel them.

“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”

“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

Interesting analysis, Blade. I disagree with a lot of it, but agree with other parts.

The main points I disagree with are what Vendel already brought up, and that Cloud's brief, pointed descriptions of places in answer to Denzel and Marlene's questions reflects an aloofness. I took that more as a reflection of Cloud being a bit simple-minded (not in a bad way; he's just simple) and child-like. It was said his answers satisfied the kids, so I took that as something of an indication that they think the same way on stuff like this.

Thanks again for sharing all that.

I'm not saying he can't feel love...I'm saying he has the emotion but can't process or recieve it well. It's not a concrete idea, but the notion is that some people aren't able process or understand what love is properly...sometimes they think love is something you have to "be in the good graces of" or "earn" (conditional love that is). Other cases people are said to be "loved" but don't really know what is going on. Still other cases people think something is "love" but is a twisted idea or concept born from something that is LIKE a positive relationship that they get stimulation from (I'm bad at explaining this...it's closer to masochism or sadism, or a victim complex).

I think in Cloud's case, his idea of love is very subtle and reduced and put on low priority in his life due to his own circumstances. The times he is given to love often lead to arguments and misunderstandings, which means something IS wrong with the way the love is being interpreted or communicated either TO him or FROM him.

Also regarding the "aloofness"...it's one thing to communicate with kids and give reduced answers to simplify it for them...it's another when the kids are the only people he talks directly to during an expanse of time.

I say that because for one reason or another he had difficulty facing Tifa and Marlene...I don't know if it was because he has issues with girls in general (not gynophobia of course but deeper), or if it was purely circumstantial.

As a guy myself, I have, in the past, had trouble relating to or understanding what girls wanted with me...even if they were being nice. It often confused me, so I relate to the confusion. It's harder to explain...but, suffice it to say:

It's harder to understand women when you haven't regularly associated yourself with them...but if you've dated a woman before you kindof "gain experience" in that realm...not saying Cloud hasn't...since we can't guarantee who he dated in FF7 or if that resulted in more confidence in that area, especially considering the idea that at the time [Zack-Cloud] was the dominant force behind his persona.

In Tifa's case, like I said before, it's a bit of a mother complex...Cloud lost his mother some time ago, and he probably hasn't quite got over that yet...I know when I lost my mother it left a HUGE gap in my life, even when I had long since left the house.

In Marlene's case, it's not as simple as trying to understand a little girl's feelings...she's growing up, slowly but surely, and at some point Cloud has to acknowledge her personality and respond to it, along with all it's subtle nuances and temprament. You'd be surprised how fast girls mature, so it can be off-setting...especially to a man who is more comfortable talking around guys or none at all (Cloud was near SOLDIER, which says nothing about gender distinction, but is most likely full of men).

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm not saying he can't feel love...I'm saying he has the emotion but can't process or recieve it well. It's not a concrete idea, but the notion is that some people aren't able process or understand what love is properly...sometimes they think love is something you have to "be in the good graces of" or "earn" (conditional love that is).

I think in Cloud's case, his idea of love is very subtle and reduced and put on low priority in his life due to his own circumstances. The times he is given to love often lead to arguments and misunderstandings, which means something IS wrong with the way the love is being interpreted or communicated either TO him or FROM him.

Are you talking about post-FFVII? What else is there to do? I understand that there's little time for love in the OG but after the crisis I don't see anything else that Cloud would prioritize over buildings their lives back and taking care of Tifa. Love is not a separate world that Cloud has to explore and conquer. There's no evidence that he misinterprets Tifa's love for him, and his problems are mostly personal.

Also regarding the "aloofness"...it's one thing to communicate with kids and give reduced answers to simplify it for them...it's another when the kids are the only people he talks directly to during an expanse of time.

He talks with his friends. He even drinks with Barret. Cloud even knew that Barret will leave before Tifa heard of it.

I say that because for one reason or another he had difficulty facing Tifa and Marlene...I don't know if it was because he has issues with girls in general (not gynophobia of course but deeper), or if it was purely circumstantial.

As a guy myself, I have, in the past, had trouble relating to or understanding what girls wanted with me...even if they were being nice. It often confused me, so I relate to the confusion. It's harder to explain...but, suffice it to say:

Sometimes men just thinking too hard about what women think and imagine themselves in a Mars to Venus situation. I don't think Cloud is so much like a philosopher to dissect what love really is, and that idea that he thinks that women are from an alien planet is unfounded. Yeah, I do understand that sometimes men misunderstood the kindness of women and mistake it as flirting. But in Cloud's case, he knew he likes Tifa, and he knew that she likes him back. They have mutual feelings. It's not a matter of confusion, it's a matter of a low self-confidence and insecurities on Cloud's part.

Though Tifa is a very complex character, it's not difficult to make her happy. She loves a family setting and is quite content with that. Cloud likes the setting too but is paranoid of losing it, he also has a very self-depreciating attitude and feels that the family can be happier without him because he sucks.

It's harder to understand women when you haven't regularly associated yourself with them...but if you've dated a woman before you kindof "gain experience" in that realm...

In Tifa's case, like I said before, it's a bit of a mother complex...Cloud lost his mother some time ago, and he probably hasn't quite got over that yet...I know when I lost my mother it left a HUGE gap in my life, even when I had long since left the house.

I think Cloud grew up to get past that stage of looking for a mommy. A woman's care can be not too different from a mother and people can get enough of both needs with one person without confusing her for a parent.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Saying things like this is one of the main reasons they feel unwelcome here.

A fucking break. Give it to me.
The LTD thread was pretty much overhauled specifically for these illusive Cleris supporters who didn't dig the "harsher" version. I didn't see them flocking after that, I'm not seeing them, and I'm not going to see them and Ryu's statement has zip to do with it. Let's quit pretending and call the fucking spade a spade, ja?

And Anastar was assured by many pplz who responded to her to take her time, so how the fuck is time even an issue here? This has nothing to do with why people are not returning. And I'd like to add there's hasn't even been a post about any intention to reply. I pretty much thought this thread dead, myself.

Also, please let's all remember why members here were frustrated with Anastar -- it wasn't her reponse time. It was her attitude, her flip-flopping, and generally the content of her posts.

If they don't want to debate that's fine, they don't have to. If they don't enjoy it, they don't have to. Quit blaming the people here for the Clerii's unwillingness.

@ Blade: I'm not entirely sure as to what purpose these different Cloud labels serve. I believe that separating Cloud and compartmentalizing him like this loses sight of the progression of Cloud's character, his fear of failure, his doubts, basically causative effects and such.

I agree with some things, but you've fragmented Cloud in a away that suggests to me a much lower degree of functionality for Cloud than what I think actually existed.

 

[Dashell]

A fucking break. Give it to me.
The LTD thread was pretty much overhauled specifically for these illusive Cleris supporters who didn't dig the "harsher" version. I didn't see them flocking after that, I'm not seeing them, and I'm not going to see them and Ryu's statement has zip to do with it. Let's quit pretending and call the fucking spade a spade, ja?

And Anastar was assured by many pplz who responded to her to take her time, so how the fuck is time even an issue here? This has nothing to do with why people are not returning. And I'd like to add there's hasn't even been a post about any intention to reply. I pretty much thought this thread dead, myself.

Also, please let's all remember why members here were frustrated with Anastar -- it wasn't her reponse time. It was her attitude, her flip-flopping, and generally the content of her posts.

If they don't want to debate that's fine, they don't have to. If they don't enjoy it, they don't have to. Quit blaming the people here for the Clerii's unwillingness.

k

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^I'm confused as to the meaning of the above post. It comes of as dismissive, I think I got that bit right but wouldn't swear to it. Even if so, what is being dismissed? Those were all rather salient points OWD made up there about just why things went the way they went and such, and how not all the debaters here would like to accept the blame for the unwillingness of Cleriths both specific and general to debate here.

 

[Lex]

I have read a great deal of the posts in this thread so many times, trying to find some reasonable way I could possibly add to the discussion so that I can make a post. I don't think I could say anything that wouldn't be rehashing old points. I actually think people are tired of talking about it.

I have only this to say:

I support Cloti. I believe the canon supports Cloti for reasons abound that have been mentioned here more than once. Aerith is dead. Regardless of the possible hints of whispers of myths of the existence of Clerith love, she is dead. I don't understand why this argument rages on. Is Cloud going to spend the rest of his days pining after a corpse lifestream particles? No. He has Tifa.

It's too hard to keep up with you people. I don't think my brain's big enough for all of it. I just had to get that off my chest.

Long live Cloti.

 

[Celes Chere]

Is Cloud going to spend the rest of his days pining after a corpse? No. He has Tifa.

See, I find posts like this sort of ... ridiculous. It's not like Cloud is pining over a corpse. If someone you love dies, there is a possibility that you will love that person forever. Even if a new man/woman comes into your life - you might move on, but you might always still have that person you lost always in your heart. And sometimes, you don't move on. You can't. You love the person too much.
'pining over a corpse' I find to be offensive. And it's not about a video game pairing on this one, it's that it's hard to fathom someone loving a deceased lover and someone saying "you don't need a corpse you have (insert name here)"
love doesn't work like that

Nothing against you or anything
that comment just does not sit right with me

 

[Lex]

I can understand why it wouldn't sit right with someone if I was talking about reality in such a blasé manner, but the comment wasn't aimed at real life; we're talking about Final Fantasy here. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my meaning.

None taken.

EDIT: I have edited my original post to adhere to the fiction of the universe in which the comment was intended.

 

[Vendel]

Is Cloud going to spend the rest of his days pining after a corpse lifestream particles? No. He has Tifa.

To be fair it's not like Cloud strung Tifa along by deciding to to live with her right after the game by telling her he will succeed at life because he has her. Then helping to build their new home and running all over creation getting supplies for her. Then along with Tifa taking over raising Marlene and eventually adopting a sick child.

So cut the man some slack.