Quexinos
Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only
possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.
Quex said:
Chantara said:
Now, this is the main problem I have with your translations along with the translations of other people in this debate. From what both experts have said, the translation depends on context. The context in which you are translating is that Cloud loves Tifa. To you, that fits the story. To you, that fits the story narrative.
I repeat: Neither of these sounds like something you would use to describe a conversation that is said to be apathetic.
Neither of what? The response to you from the expert at allexperts.com:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&qID=5001685
and the response to you from the person on the JP forum?
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/japanese-language-help/41533-phrase-想いを通わせる.html
If so, yes – what they say does describe a conversation that’s “apathetic”, especially when you’ve told me the word can also be translated as “honest”. I quote from the first answer on the second link:
Question from Quex: I've seen people argue over the meaning of the phrase "想いを通わせる" which when translated I gather is "exchange feelings."
What I'm wondering about is this: if I wanted to say "exchanged feelings of friendship" or "exchanged feelings of closeness" would I use this phrase or can this one only be used for romance? What phrase would I use for "exchanged feelings of friendship/closeness/something besides romance" if that was the case?
Answer: 「想いを通わせる」, all by itself without context, is very difficult to translate as it covers a wide range of meanings including the three types of "feelings" mentioned by you. The phrase can be used when there is a high level of communication and understanding between any two (groups of ) people.
It can be between a teacher and his/her class, between two friends, between parents and their kids, etc. The point of the word 「通う」 is that something exists "two-way" instead of "one-way". If two persons speak to each other all day everyday without ever understanding or respecting each other, this word cannot be used to describe the state of their relationship.
Source:
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/japanese-language-help/41533-phrase-想いを通わせる.html
The expert says that the phrase 「想いを通わせる」 covers a wide range of meanings, including friendship and closeness. She goes on to say that what matters is that the two people reach an understanding with one another. If the word “apathetic” is translated as “honest”, there should be no controversy over her description applying to an honest conversation. Now, if the word is translated as “apathetic”, it only means that the not much feeling is shown. I’ve also said that “apathetic” could indicate indifference toward a romantic relationship with one another. As long as the Cloud and Tifa reach an understanding after their short conversation, then 「想いを通わせる」 would indeed apply according to what that expert said.
Now let’s look at the response from allexperts.com:
ANSWER: I'm not sure of the context, but the line appears to be saying:
"In the final stages of the story with Cloud, [our] emotions about [each other] were all over the place (i.e., sometimes positive, sometimes negative, with much back and forth). We were living together during the days of AD/DC."
As you can see, there’s nothing romantic about the translation at all, so it would easily apply to an “apathetic” and/or “honest” conversation. It was only after you provided a romantic context that his answer changed.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
Agent P
First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase 想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.
In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m...20&qID=5004875
He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.
Since the context of the Compilation does not hold any conclusive answer about whether Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is romantic or platonic, the context of the story is inconclusive. Different people arrive at a different answer to the LT on the context of the story. Since there is no conclusive answer in the context of the story, then this sentence alone cannot answer the question conclusively.
Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story. Dreamstar plans to post about what her friend said, so I’ll let her go into more detail about it.
By the way, I am still waiting on a reply from someone who was unavailable over the holidays, so I may have more to say about the phrase 想いを通わせる in the near future.
First of all, just to get it out there, I don't take issue with you writing to the same expert I wrote to, (in fact I expected you to ) but I do take issue with you giving him information based on your opinion. I didn't say anything of the sort to him but you sorta lead him on to say what you wanted him to say. (more on this below)
Um, Quex – you did the exact same thing.
Here’s what you said in your follow up after the expert told you the sentence meant their feelings were all over the place:
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION [from Quex]: I should have given you more context, sorry about that. Was tired when I wrote that. The "our" you used in this case is actually a she. Also which part means "all over the place"? Is it 通わせ? I thought that would mean they're just communicating back and forth, not that the feelings were back and forth. My understanding was more like this:
クラウド Cloud
とは with
物語の終盤 end of the story (game in this case)
想いを = feelings/emotions
通わせ = communicate back and forth
So the translation I have is "She communicated her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the game, and during AC and DC they are living together."
is this wrong?
But you answered the question about 想い being romantic. I'm guessing you need context to judge. I am curious though, if I wanted to say "They communicated their feelings about each other" vs "They communicated their feelings about the Super Bowl" would I use the same phrase?
Source:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&qID=5001685
You gave the expert your own translation. That’s providing context as well as your opinion.
In the translation you gave, you told the expert that “she” is communicating “her” feelings with Cloud. That’s providing the context of two people communicating their feelings with one another, and your translation implies that these people started living together
because of the feelings exchanged. Then you asked about whether it means they communicated their feelings with each other, and whether it is romantic.
Sorry, Quex, but you also gave your opinion and context. In fact, that was a
major part of my post to you, but you totally ignored what I said. Quoting from my post:
Chantara said:
Now, notice that *without knowing the context*, the expert did not say it was romantic in nature even though the phrase [FONT="]想いを通わせる[/FONT] is in the sentence. Instead, the expert translated it to mean that their feelings are sporadic, sometimes positive and sometimes negative. If the phrase [FONT="]想いを通わせる[/FONT] automatically means romance, then why did the expert translate it that way?
After that, you supplied a context in your 1st follow up question:
So the translation I have is "She communicated her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the game, and during AC and DC they are living together."
is this wrong?
But you answered the question about 想い being romantic. I'm guessing you need context to judge. I am curious though, if I wanted to say "They communicated their feelings about each other" vs "They communicated their feelings about the Super Bowl" would I use the same phrase?
When you said that, you supplied a suggestion that the conversation may be romantic in nature and that you were wondering whether in fact it is romantic in nature. It’s only after you said that the expert replied that [FONT="]想いを通わせる[/FONT] implies romance. Before that, even though the same phrase was in the sentence, the expert said their feelings were all over the place.
Notice, too, that the expert said that [FONT="]想いを通わせる[/FONT] implies something intimate. To “imply” means to “suggest” or to “indicate.” Neither word means that it’s definite.
Source:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=395955&postcount=2616
So I already explained that you supplied context and opinion in your follow up question, and that the expert didn’t give a romantic context
until you supplied that context - so why did you just ignore what I said?
Quex said:
Although tbh, maybe it doesn't matter because I think his answer would have been the same. You always need context, and I never denied that. This phrase is while it's usually used for romance, but also "that phrase wouldn't be used to describe a conversation that's said to be lacking or apathetic."
Already answered that above.
Quex said:
And not only that, but you didn't inform us about JayM's response. Notice how the Japanese native I spoke to on japanforums.com didn't agree right off the bat that the phrase was romantic, but I still mentioned her and came to a conclusion based on ALL the evidence I gathered? You ignored her and I don't think that's how this should be played.
Why
should I inform you about what JayM said? The whole point is that not everyone agrees with you, so why do I need to say that someone does agree with you? If not everyone agrees with you, then what you say hasn’t been established as fact.
Quex said:
Come on Anastar, I expect more from you. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but what would you think if I had written to all experts.com and said, "Hey is this phrase romantic? BTW these two have sex and raise children and live together!"... OF COURSE he's going to say it's romantic. And would you take his reply seriously? No, you'd shove it back in my face and say, "That's your opinion and you gave him the answer you wanted." and I'd completely expect you to do that, too.
Sorry, Quex, but you did the exact same thing when writing to both experts after their first answer wasn’t what you wanted to hear. I wanted to hear what they said when a different context was given from the context you provided.
After all, the first answer given to you was:
ANSWER: I'm not sure of the context, but the line appears to be saying:
"In the final stages of the story with Cloud, [our] emotions about [each other] were all over the place (i.e., sometimes positive, sometimes negative, with much back and forth). We were living together during the days of AD/DC."
Source:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&qID=5001685
The expert even says right there that it matters on the context of the passage. That’s why I asked how it would be translated
if the context were different.
Quex said:
Same thing if you tell him, "The story isn't romantic for those two at all." OF COURSE he's going to say look at the context. This makes it seem like you're not really interested in the truth but interested in winning.
Also what if you found out I had asked Hito about the phrase and he said, "No, you can't assume that's romantic. It is sometimes but it's rare!" but didn't tell you about that and just gave you the all experts guy whom I specifically told was romantic? See what I mean here? I managed to ask people questions without context or giving away any of the story and I got my answers, you should try to do the same.
Since you're so focused on the romantic part though, (keep in mind I understand that 想いを通わせる CAN be used for other things but it's primarily romantic. This has been the overwhelming response both you AND I have received, from allexperts.com, and from people here and your own forum. ) Let me present you with this.
Ditto what I said above.
Quex said:
If I may repeat something Tres said here cause he said it so darn well:
Could I, technically, say -- in English, mind you -- that Johnny and Jane "realized their feelings for each other" while referring to the fact that they realized they don't like being friends and aren't going to see each other anymore? Sure, I technically could, but the average person is going to find that a poor -- and potentially misleading -- choice of phrasing.
If I say that Johnny and Jane realized their feelings for each other without saying anything else, the average person will take that to mean they fell in love with each other. That is such a prevailing understanding of that choice of phrasing that it has no other connotation.
And from what Tres said, he’s providing the context of them being in love. That perspective is only his opinion because he
thinks Cloud and Tifa are in love. In reality, that’s not the only way to view the story because not everyone thinks Cloud and Tifa are in love, and not everyone sees the story that way.
Say, for example, that John says to Jane,
“Want to go to dinner with me tonight?” Yes, that could mean that John is asking Jane out on a date and it could mean that John has romantic interest in Jane. But does it definitely mean that? What if John and Jane are brother and sister? What if John is married to Jane’s sister, and he’s just making a friendly and platonic invitation because his wife is out of town and Jane had said she had nothing to do tonight?
You can’t tell from the words alone whether or not the question was meant romantically. You have to know the context. You asked the expert if the sentence meant something romantic because of the phrase 想いを通わせる. The expert’s first response was NO – it depends on context. Without knowing the context, the expert said he would translate it unromantically.
So I asked the same expert if someone could tell whether it meant romance on the basis of the sentence alone, especially if the context didn’t imply romance. After all - not everyone sees romance in the context, so I see it as a fair question. He gave me the same original answer as he originally gave you: NO – it depends on the context. You just supplied further context and even gave him your own translation so that he changed his answer.
Quex said:
That's basically what we're dealing with here with the Japanese phrasing about "communicated their feelings" (with that specific form of "omoi"). Could you use it another way? Technically. Would you? Not likely.
You also have to take into consideration that the same phrase was used for romance for Celes and Locke. Why would square used it for romance for them but not for another pairing? Or does it mean something else with them?
Why do you say
nakama has a romantic implication when Cloud calls Tifa that in Dissidia, but not when he calls Aerith
nakama? Why do you think
koibito has a romantic meaning in Reunion Files when it’s used with Tifa, but not when Aerith says it about Cloud in
CoLWhite? Same difference.
Quex said:
Why would they use a phrase that's primarily romantic to Cloud and Tifa if they really wanted it to be ambiguous?
Because it’s not primarily romantic – as stated by the expert at allexperts.com to you:
ANSWER: I'm not sure of the context, but the line appears to be saying:
"In the final stages of the story with Cloud, [our] emotions about [each other] were all over the place (i.e., sometimes positive, sometimes negative, with much back and forth). We were living together during the days of AD/DC."
Source:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&qID=5001685
as stated by the expert you asked at the Japanese Culture forum:
「想いを通わせる」, all by itself without context, is very difficult to translate as it covers a wide range of meanings including the three types of "feelings" mentioned by you [closeness, friendship]. The phrase can be used when there is a high level of communication and understanding between any two (groups of ) people.
It can be between a teacher and his/her class, between two friends, between parents and their kids, etc. The point of the word 「通う」 is that something exists "two-way" instead of "one-way".
Source:
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/japanese-language-help/41533-phrase-想いを通わせる.html
as stated by Dreamstar’s native Japanese friend, and as stated by the sensei of a member of the CloudxAerith forum. That’s four sources.
Quex said:
Please answer these questions and take into account everything you've been told about the phrase and not just focus on the one person who told you it isn't always romantic.
I gave you four sources for that conclusion.
Quex said:
Then I would like you to respond to how such a phrase that's used for feelings such as love and understanding could be used to describe a conversation (yes a conversation not a scene, or the characters) that's described to be apathetic. Keeping in mind that the "candid" translation is NOT honest and that it simply means lacking.
I’m not clear – are you saying that the word translated as “apathetic” doesn’t also mean “candid”? If the alternate translation is “lacking” instead of “candid”, then maybe you should say “lacking” instead of “candid” because “candid” means “honest”. See the definition here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/candid
Now you say it really means “lacking”? Lacking of what? Emotion? Romance? Isn’t that the same as “apathetic”?
At any rate, we know that Cloud and Tifa came to an understanding about their friendship in the Low Affection scene because the next morning, before they head to the airship, this is what they say to one another:
Tifa "......"
(Cloud stands.)
Cloud "We'd better go."
(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)
Tifa "But, I still...!?"
(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)
Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."
"At least we don't have to go on alone."(A pause. Tifa nods) Tifa "Yes... That's right!"(He nods)
Now, we know that conversation is referring to just the two of them because they don’t know at that point that the others have come back:
(They walk together toward the Highwind. It begins to lower to the ground as the scene fades. It fades back in to show the walkway to the bridge. Tifa is following Cloud there.) Tifa "The airship is too big for just the two of us." "Yeah, it's a little lonely without everyone." (Cloud turns around to face her.) Cloud "Don't worry. It'll be okay."
So Cloud was talking about how they don’t have to go on alone – that they have each other. The same conversation takes place after the Low Affection version as well as the High Affection version. Therefore, they know they have one another after both versions – but SE has specified that only the High Affection version is romantic.
The only logical conclusion is that they confirmed the closeness of their friendship (instead of romance) during the Low Affection version. It must have been during the black out, since we do not see that confirmed in the actual dialogue.
Of course, we don’t see romance confirmed during the actual dialogue of the High Affection scene, either, so it must have happened during the black out,
Quex said:
And, please do not provide a made up scene for me unless you have proof that it exists.
See the last part of my response.
I don't feel good cause you say good things about me 
