The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Celes Chere]

I can understand why it wouldn't sit right with someone if I was talking about reality in such a blasé manner, but the comment wasn't aimed at real life; we're talking about Final Fantasy here. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my meaning.

So... now I'm just trying to understand here. It's okay to act one way towards fiction, but different towards reality? I don't really understand that. OAO; It's like saying "Tifa is such a slut for wearing that outfit!" and then in reality looking at a girl in the same outfit and going "daaayum she's hot"
Idgi

Might just be me, but the same morals I have irl effect my opinions on fiction and other things. *shrugs*

edit: I mean, I know we act differently towards some things in fiction... but when it comes to personal values?

 

[Marle]

Uh. Although I respect the fact that Tres and Quex are getting along splendidly over at CxA and it's good to hear that there were apologies, I personally don't really see how this somehow warrants me to just be okay with Anastar again?

I had no issue with any other clerith supporter that came in here and debated. They were lovely. Anastar is an exception for me, not because she took too long to reply or any of that. Her attitude about it just sucked and her arguments were sort of upsetting and kind of offensive at times. Not saying she was the only one who was doing this, but it's the topic at hand so.

I didn't like seeing hito's name get trashed either because of simply translating and other people's credibility be questioned because of a stupid fucking ship. And to be labelled a 'cloti' forum when that's a total fucking lie.

Actually, there's a lot I can list about what I didn't like with her. I'm not going to get into it because it's irrelevant to the thread but basically, I find myself sort of siding with OWD on this one. Sorry, guys.

OT: I'm gonna agree with Tiff. It sort of sounds like Cloud is just with Tifa because: oh hay it isn't necrophilia if I have sex with you, right?

I don't think Cloud is with Tifa because Aerith is dead. And that statement sort of makes it sound like that? I also don't think Cloud is pining after a corpse. That sounds so...terrible D:

If my mother dies, I would miss her and pine for her for my whole life. I will continue to live and be happy. But I will always mourn her and I will always miss her. I know you're separating fiction from reality but to me, I sort of try to equate them? Because FF7 is such a real game. The emotions the characters have are real and relatable. It's why I love it so much.

I get what you're trying to say but what it always boils down to for me is the fact that Cloud loved Tifa all along. The LTD, to me, wasn't over because one side of the triangle was dead; it's over because Cloud loves Tifa and he's with her. It doesn't mean he has to ever forget Aerith. It doesn't mean he'll stop missing her. Hell, if you like, it doesn't mean he even has to stop loving her.

But he's still going to live his life to the fullest with a woman he loves very much. I think, personally, it's something Aerith would have wanted for him, too.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Another reiteration of "not Anastar's delayed response but the content and attitude is the problem'

A +1 of Your response sounded completely dismissive, Quex, and also a +1 of Cloud isn't just with Tifa because Aerith's dead.

Aerith being dead and all the issues surrounding that is Anti-C/A as possible evidence, not Pro-C/T.

Cloud is with Tifa because for Cloud, Tifa's always been the person he wanted, and because they're pretty damn good for each other, barring fatal wasting disease, depression, and general thoughts of unworthiness and doombringing.

That's all together, mind, not just any of the lot.

 

[Lex]

I also believe Cloud loved Tifa all along. And I said that in my original post, so I don't know where people are getting this "he's only with her because she's dead" idea from.

What I meant was that the people who argue for Clerith seem pointless to me in the end, because she's dead and the pairing has absolutely no future canonicity. So even if one does argue for Clerith, it doesn't change the fact that he's living with Tifa. I then used dark exaggerated humour to enforce the point, and it was picked apart and made to look like I was offending people. Each to their own.

 

[Celes Chere]

it was picked apart and made to look like I was offending people.

I did no such thing.

 

[Lex]

OK. Thanks for clearing that up .

 

[JayM]

Hey, haven't posted here for awhile (here OR at CxA), but as a participant of the LTD on both boards I figured I'd weigh in.

First off, re: Aeris being dead--I actually think that's one of the main reasons the LTD still exists. If she were alive, we could see for certain how real!Cloud interacts with both her and Tifa, and if he were still living with Tifa and raising kids with her in ACC, it'd pretty much answer the LTD right there (though I'm sure people would still argue it). With her being dead, though, the LTD becomes a question of "What sort of story do you think SE is telling?" and to an even greater extent, I think, "What sort of story do you prefer?"

Not saying that all of the LTD arguments are about personal preference, because if nothing else the debate forces people to dissect their feelings on the point and look for evidence instead.

But the point that I'm trying to make is that a lot of those who end up Cloud/Aeris shippers literally played different games, and watched a different movie. (Please, any hardcore C/A shippers who disagree with what I'm saying, please feel free to correct me; I'm going solely by observation, here.)

Theirs is a tragic/triumphant love story, where the death of the hero's True Love at first throws him into despair and then propels him to become stronger. It's a compelling story, and it's one that I feel can be supported by the text. It isn't a totally off-the-wall reading. But it's vastly different from what I think most people who wind up Cloud/Tifa shippers experience when they go through the compilation (I miss being able to say just "play the game" ), and it definitely relies on a completely different interpretation of Cloud.

At the risk of sounding condescending, I think Tres and Que are realizing this now at CxA (I...sort of had these thoughts before but didn't quite have the words for them). They're able to discuss their wider view of the narrative and while it's showing areas of vast disagreement, there's an openness to the thought process behind the Cloud/Aeris perspective that I don't think existed in this thread.

This isn't really meant to be a condemnation of anyone--it's more akin to what I said when I first joined here. Different environments and different attitudes. The folks over here, CloTi and non-CloTi alike, tend to take a "prove it!" approach to canon interpretation unless the thread is specifically stated as speculation/non-canon (and even then there is a bit of this). It isn't aggressive in most cases. It's just the way we operate.

Whereas at CxA, it's taken for granted that you support CxA--this is not something that needs to be proven. So the attitude there is geared more towards "why do you personally support this"--more opinion and interpretation-based, since there is really no need for them to prove something it's assumed they agree on. It isn't like we give no weight to canon; it's just taken for granted that we read canon the same (even when we don't, like yours truly).

This, to me, pretty much encapsulates the conflict here. As previous commenters have said, it's similar to an argument about religion; while the demand for proof is valid, it's also something that is in many cases antithetical to the understanding of the faithful.

.............aaaaaand I just compared Cloud/Aeris to religion. I think that's a sign I need my morning tea.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Whereas at CxA, it's taken for granted that you support CxA--this is not something that needs to be proven. So the attitude there is geared more towards "why do you personally support this"--more opinion and interpretation-based, since there is really no need for them to prove something it's assumed they agree on.

A thing reflected in their debating process elsewhere as well, and something we here are all too familiar with. They begin with the assumption that Cloud and Aeris loved each other and then proceed from there by trying to fit the narrative into that conclusion. Hence the #1 most repeated question here is/was usually: Show me where Cloud fell in love with Aeris.

 

[Marle]

I also believe Cloud loved Tifa all along. And I said that in my original post, so I don't know where people are getting this "he's only with her because she's dead" idea from.

What I meant was that the people who argue for Clerith seem pointless to me in the end, because she's dead and the pairing has absolutely no future canonicity. So even if one does argue for Clerith, it doesn't change the fact that he's living with Tifa. I then used dark exaggerated humour to enforce the point, and it was picked apart and made to look like I was offending people. Each to their own.

D: I wasn't trying to dissect anything you said. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. But it just came off that way to me.

Hm. What I noted from a lot of people who debated for clerith here, they weren't ever trying to prove that clerith is canon. Most of them were trying to prove that cloti was not canon and that the love interest is still optional. At least, that was what I got out of it? A select few of the debaters did try to prove Cloud loved Aerith or, that it was at least a possibility.

I found the debate most interesting when it was about the latter, tbh. And, I don't know if those debaters believe this, but they did succeed in helping me see some things differently.

 

[Master Bates]

If I may say something that strengthens C/A, it's this one thing: AERITH IS DEAD. So yeah... I agree with Ms. Angry Lesbian that it's the main raisin for the continued LTD existence.

How do I say it? I think a memory about the dead is beautiful since when trying to remember them, we always tend to remember the good things and it becomes bittersweet and nostalgic and painful that for the most part, it's just plain beautiful. Had Aerith lived, I don't think C/A would have this compelling power to suck people in, tbh. Aerith's death, while it remains its most visible weakness, is also the magic of C/A. It makes people think of 'what if' situations and to writers and those hopeless romantics, fans of tragic romancesof imaginative mind, it's an inspiration. So yeah, I can understand people for liking it.


I was not meaning to comment here again but this here post made me want to do it:

A fucking break. Give it to me.

Innuendo?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Oh, I totally get the appeal of Cleris.

Problem for me, personally, when it comes to Cleris is that there is really not enough love story before the tragic separation and, thus, I dun feel the ~pain~. There isn't much to work with. What ifs are fun, but it's hard to keep a ship going with only "i sorta kinda like you, yo" before death. Granted, this is the internet, characters get shipped for much less, but I can't see them as tragic lovers. /kanye shrug

 

[Master Bates]

Oh, I totally get the appeal of Cleris.

My beloved, my post was not aimed at you but to the general public who fail to gauge the importance of Aerith's death to C/A, but yes, I get your feelings.

Problem for me, personally, when it comes to Cleris is that there is really not enough love story before the tragic separation and, thus, I dun feel the ~pain~. There isn't much to work with. What ifs are fun, but it's hard to keep a ship going with only "i sorta kinda like you, yo" before death. Granted, this is the internet, characters get shipped for much less, but I can't see them as tragic lovers. /kanye shrug

Tbh, it is a problem for me too. I'm not a writer and I certainly don't have a very imaginative mind so I tend to just stick with the orthodox canon or the most obvious conclusion along the narrative because... well... it's easier for me, which is why I am mostly impartial to the notion of C/A being canon. I'm just saying I understand these people who ship them and get why they like it.

 

[null]

Posting only to complete the retro experience.

Here is my problem with C/A: it's very liberal with its interpretation of what qualifies as Cloud being romantic with Aerith, but when Cloud shows similar (or more poignant) behavior toward Tifa, it gets dismissed, ignored, danced around or rationalized with absurd extra-narrative theories (i.e. color symbolism).

Just be consistent. Does Cloud love Aerith? If you think so, fine, but don't twist the rest of Cloud's story to pretend it isn't wrapped around him being with Tifa. To say nothing of the ubiquitous argument that Cloud is in a continuing relationship with Spirit Aerith.

 

[BlankBeat]

How can this website claim that Cloti is cannon? If this were an official newspaper I would call for a retraction!

1. There are two versions of the Highwind scene depending on the level of affection Tifa has for Cloud. Given that two versions exist, neither can be canon.

2. The page number 232 was listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. After doing some research I discovered that if Tifa has a low affection for Cloud, the Highwind scene is, "apathetic and ends short". This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.

3. A picture of Cloud's Golden Saucer date with Aerith is also shown in the now infamous 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Given that multiple dates can occur depending on the level of affection each character has for Cloud, none of the dates are canon. If you are going to apply this logic to the date scene, you MUST apply the same logic to the Highwind scene.

4. The Highwind scene listed by TLS is optional and therefore not canon. A retraction from TLS is clearly in order.

In all my years of being a fan of Final Fantasy VII, I never realized the polarizing nature surrounding the debate about who Cloud loves more — Tifa or Aerith.

But from beginning to end, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith and only thought of Tifa as nothing more than a childhood acquaintance that was brought back into his life due to a series of coincidences.

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII.

The creators of Final Fantasy VII have stated that Aerith, Barret and Cloud were the original three characters created for the game. This confirms, to me anyway, that Squaresoft always intended Aerith to be the central female character and love interest for Cloud. Just look at the original and official artwork Squaresoft produced. It’s all of Cloud and Aerith together! So the bottom line is this: virtually every Final Fantasy game has official artwork of the two intended love interests. Final Final VII’s original artwork shows Cloud and Aerith. ‘Nuff said.

Given the importance of Aerith during the opening scene, and the fact that Aerith was one of the three original characters, points to the theory that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together from the start. Sadly, I’ve discovered on numerous forums that the majority of Final Fantasy VII fans prefer the pairing of Cloud and Tifa. This has led me to a state of shock and bewilderment. What seems so obvious to me —the pairing of Cloud and Aerith— is not what the majority of fans see.

From the beginning of the game, I always felt Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together. Cloud chose to be Aerith’s bodyguard with the promise of one date. When Tifa asked Cloud to join AVALANCE, he only did so when Barret promised him a large sum of money. See the difference?

And while Cloud was growing up, him and Tifa were childhood acquaintances, not friends or lovers. Tifa ignored Cloud when they were kids, and they only had one conversation together — a conversation Cloud doesn’t remember. During this conversation, Cloud makes a friendly promise to Tifa, a promise Tifa begged Cloud to make. Hardly a mutual childhood romance.

The facts are, Cloud only laughed and cried for one character — Aerith. This suggests his emotional connection to Aerith was deeper than his emotional connection to Tifa. When Aerith died Cloud exclaimed: “My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!” -- granted, he may have reacted the same way if Tifa had died. But regardless, he only cried for one person and that person was Aerith.

Even after Aerith died, Cloud sought the Promise Land so he could reunite with her. At the end of the game Cloud exclaims: “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” — anyone who doesn’t think Cloud is referring to Aerith is either an idiot or being completely disingenuous. Furthermore, this quest for the Promise Land and search for Aerith is also included in numerous material Squaresoft has released since Final Fantasy VII.

Furthermore, Cloud thought it was Aerith reaching for him during the end of the game. It was ultimately Tifa who was reaching for Cloud, but his heart wanted it to be Aerith. And although Cloud ultimately ends up with Tifa in many respects, it is only because Aerith was taken from us. If Aerith had lived, things would have been very different. Even in Advent Children, Cloud is shown to be distant and cold towards Tifa while living in Aerith’s Church! If how he acts towards Tifa and where he lives doesn’t tell you where his true feelings lie, I don’t know what does!

Many Tifa supporters point to the Highwind scene as proof of Cloud and Tifa’s love. However, this scene doesn’t prove anything and is pure speculation. Especially since two versions can occur. But even if sex did occur, does sex automatically mean love? And would this have even taken place if Aerith had been alive?

The fact remains, Aerith is the only character Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for. In Cosmo Canyon Cloud says, “But, I’m —I mean— we’re here for you, right?”…The reason Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for Aerith is because of the wonderful chemistry and love the two have together.

Those that say Aerith was meant for Zack are also mistaken. Aerith states that she recognizes Cloud is different than Zack, saying to Cloud, “But you’re different. Things are different…” — Aerith loved Cloud for who he was and recognized that the past was the past. Aerith also states in the game that she wasn’t in a serious relationship with Zack, and that Zack was a ladies man who had probably moved on. In addition, during Aerith and Cloud’s Golden Saucer date, Aerith claims that she wants to get to know the ‘real’ Cloud.

And finally, the official commercial approved and released by Squaresoft. The official commercial approved by Squaresoft includes the word “Love” during the scene when Cloud holds Aerith in his arms. This commercial was approved by Squarsoft BEFORE team Tifa and team Aerith were established. I need no more proof than that. But if all this still doesn’t convince you, just go look at the official artwork.

I’ll end this with…

Cait Sith:
“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!”
“Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!”

—You can claim Cait Sith isn’t always accurate with his predictions, but this was obviously an attempt by Squaresoft to further illustrate that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together—

Cait Sith: “Poor Tifa!”

Oh and TLS, please offer a retraction claiming Tifa and Cloud are canon. Two Highwind scenes exist, and the scene you use as proof is optional, therefore, NOT canon. Omitting a page that disproves your THEORY is shady business!

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

And finally, the official commercial approved and released by Squaresoft. The official commercial approved by Squaresoft includes the word “Love” during the scene when Cloud holds Aerith in his arms. This commercial was approved by Squarsoft BEFORE team Tifa and team Aerith were established.

[Citation needed]

and the scene you use as proof is optional, therefore, NOT canon.

getting vincent and yuffie isn't optional. it must therefore be not canon. therefore, let's insist that square enix offer a version of advent children without them, since they are clearly not canon characters

 

[Wolfmania]

There are two versions of the Highwind scene depending on the level of affection Tifa has for Cloud. Given that two versions exist, neither can be canon.

A cop-out, plain and simple. One of the versions has to be the canon continuation of the story, unless you think the real one is some omitted story we have never laid our eyes upon.

The page number 232 was listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. After doing some research I discovered that if Tifa has a low affection for Cloud, the Highwind scene is, "apathetic and ends short". This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.

For starters the page has no mention of the words you quoted. Secondly, that is a well known fact, anyone who has played the game knows that. How can you say debaters here are omitting anything? That's a bold and arrogant statement. I expect actual backing to it.

But, alright. Let's, for one moment, indulge in the Clerith version of the scene.

In this version, Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings of apathy towards each other, and general non-romantic relation.

Let's see the problems with It:

* Completely out of context in regards to being in the 'For the one I love' page.

* Out of context in regards to Case of Tifa:

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

* Out of context in regards to Tifa's feelings. In light that we know Tifa loves Cloud, for your canon to be real, Tifa would be required to be apathetic in romance towards Cloud.

Untrue. So argument debunked.

A picture of Cloud's Golden Saucer date with Aerith is also shown in the now infamous 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Given that multiple dates can occur depending on the level of affection each character has for Cloud, none of the dates are canon. If you are going to apply this logic to the date scene, you MUST apply the same logic to the Highwind scene.

Read the following caption. It dosen't specify who the date was with, or that Cloud even feels anything for the person. In-fact, the Ultimania says that he is oblivious to Aerith's advances on him, a caption in a pcture of the date scene. However, it also states that Cloud became aware of Tifa's feelings, and It has been stated that those feelings match in the HW scene, as you already know.

Frankly, there's no way to determine who the date was with from story context. I don't even care for that, I actually would prefer if it was with Aerith.

However, you are failing at grasping context and insinuation. HARD. So please, don't come here so brash, demanding a retraction when so many people tried to argue the same thing as you before, and failed. This reminds me of debating in other sites, and with people so dense, they believed Chaos Vincent could actually defeat Cloud or Genesis in a fight. However unrelated, the root remains the same, stubborness is no way to debate.

I'm sorry but I don't particularly care to anwser the rest of your post, I'll leave that to the better debators of this place.

 

[Vendel]

1. There are two versions of the Highwind scene depending on the level of affection Tifa has for Cloud. Given that two versions exist, neither can be canon.

So nothing with multiple versions can have a canon one?

Sorry Vincent and Yuffie. You are not canon

2. The page number 232 was listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. After doing some research I discovered that if Tifa has a low affection for Cloud, the Highwind scene is, "apathetic and ends short". This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.

So on a page telling us that Cloud and Tifa reveal mutual romantic feelings for each other the only thing you took from that was a page number leading to a discussion of a gameplay mechanic?

3. A picture of Cloud's Golden Saucer date with Aerith is also shown in the now infamous 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Given that multiple dates can occur depending on the level of affection each character has for Cloud, none of the dates are canon. If you are going to apply this logic to the date scene, you MUST apply the same logic to the Highwind scene.

So what does the page actually say? I know pictures and numbers are great. But the actual content of the page is kind of important.

4. The Highwind scene listed by TLS is optional and therefore not canon. A retraction from TLS is clearly in order.

Funny, and I thought it was just a translation of the page in question.

Maybe you should consider the fact that if you don't like the information on that page then the problem is yours. Not with TLS posting it.

In all my years of being a fan of Final Fantasy VII, I never realized the polarizing nature surrounding the debate about who Cloud loves more — Tifa or Aerith.

Well when you have people who insist that Cloud doesn't love Tifa despite every in-universe and out telling you that he is I guess that could cause friction.

But from beginning to end, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith and only thought of Tifa as nothing more than a childhood acquaintance that was brought back into his life due to a series of coincidences.

And you were wrong.

Although one wonders why Aerith wasn't brought into his life by a "series of coincidences"?

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII.

Isn't it great when you can just make up standards for a relationship?

The creators of Final Fantasy VII have stated that Aerith, Barret and Cloud were the original three characters created for the game. This confirms, to me anyway, that Squaresoft always intended Aerith to be the central female character and love interest for Cloud. Just look at the original and official artwork Squaresoft produced. It’s all of Cloud and Aerith together! So the bottom line is this: virtually every Final Fantasy game has official artwork of the two intended love interests. Final Final VII’s original artwork shows Cloud and Aerith. ‘Nuff said.

Ignoring the nonsensical "artwork decides canon pairings" argument. You are dead wrong about what the artwork actually shows.

Oh and when Square decided to kill Aerith and they brought in Tifa she became the "intended love interest".

Given the importance of Aerith during the opening scene, and the fact that Aerith was one of the three original characters, points to the theory that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together from the start. Sadly, I’ve discovered on numerous forums that the majority of Final Fantasy VII fans prefer the pairing of Cloud and Tifa. This has led me to a state of shock and bewilderment. What seems so obvious to me —the pairing of Cloud and Aerith— is not what the majority of fans see.

Yes it's obvious that Cloud and Aerith are the intended pairing because of artwork, the opening scene and the very earliest concepts for the game. Why do we even need to bother playing?

In fact ignore everything besides that. All that Tifa nonsense just gets in the way.

From the beginning of the game, I always felt Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together. Cloud chose to be Aerith’s bodyguard with the promise of one date. When Tifa asked Cloud to join AVALANCE, he only did so when Barret promised him a large sum of money. See the difference?

Yes. I see Cloud keeping his childhood promise to Tifa. And him trying to ditch Aerith at first opportunity.

And while Cloud was growing up, him and Tifa were childhood acquaintances, not friends or lovers. Tifa ignored Cloud when they were kids, and they only had one conversation together — a conversation Cloud doesn’t remember. During this conversation, Cloud makes a friendly promise to Tifa, a promise Tifa begged Cloud to make. Hardly a mutual childhood romance.

So one of the most pivotal moments in Cloud and Tifa's lives is reduced to a "friendly promise" that Cloud doesn't even remember? Oh and Tifa also ignored him...can't forget that.

The lifestream sequence should have cleared up any confusion regarding this. Maybe you were just distracted during this sequence and missed the entire thing?

The facts are, Cloud only laughed and cried for one character — Aerith. This suggests his emotional connection to Aerith was deeper than his emotional connection to Tifa. When Aerith died Cloud exclaimed: “My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!” -- granted, he may have reacted the same way if Tifa had died. But regardless, he only cried for one person and that person was Aerith.

A few things. Cloud laughs at Aerith. In a scene the ultimania feels the need to point out while he is still under Jenovas control. Cloud didn't cry when Aerith died.

Also right from Case of Tifa: "It had been a long time since Tifa and Cloud burst out laughing."

Even after Aerith died, Cloud sought the Promise Land so he could reunite with her. At the end of the game Cloud exclaims: “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” — anyone who doesn’t think Cloud is referring to Aerith is either an idiot or being completely disingenuous. Furthermore, this quest for the Promise Land and search for Aerith is also included in numerous material Squaresoft has released since Final Fantasy VII.

Yes and mere minutes/hours after this he proclaims.

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

Furthermore, Cloud thought it was Aerith reaching for him during the end of the game. It was ultimately Tifa who was reaching for Cloud, but his heart wanted it to be Aerith. And although Cloud ultimately ends up with Tifa in many respects, it is only because Aerith was taken from us. If Aerith had lived, things would have been very different. Even in Advent Children, Cloud is shown to be distant and cold towards Tifa while living in Aerith’s Church! If how he acts towards Tifa and where he lives doesn’t tell you where his true feelings lie, I don’t know what does!

Literally building the home you are going to spend the rest of your life with the woman who you earlier declared you would spend it with and even adopting a child is nothing. Spending a few days/weeks in a church in self-imposed exile while seeking forgiveness for perceived sins=true love.

Many Tifa supporters point to the Highwind scene as proof of Cloud and Tifa’s love. However, this scene doesn’t prove anything and is pure speculation. Especially since two versions can occur. But even if sex did occur, does sex automatically mean love? And would this have even taken place if Aerith had been alive?

So you would rather Cloud uses Tifa for sex than actually care about her?

Also the lifestream sequence (the one you apparently missed) is where they become aware of each others feelings. They simply act on them for the first time under the HW.

The fact remains, Aerith is the only character Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for. In Cosmo Canyon Cloud says, “But, I’m —I mean— we’re here for you, right?”…The reason Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for Aerith is because of the wonderful chemistry and love the two have together.

“Because I have you this time.”

Those that say Aerith was meant for Zack are also mistaken. Aerith states that she recognizes Cloud is different than Zack, saying to Cloud, “But you’re different. Things are different…” — Aerith loved Cloud for who he was and recognized that the past was the past. Aerith also states in the game that she wasn’t in a serious relationship with Zack, and that Zack was a ladies man who had probably moved on. In addition, during Aerith and Cloud’s Golden Saucer date, Aerith claims that she wants to get to know the ‘real’ Cloud.

So Aerith loved Cloud for Cloud while admitting that she doesn't know him? And her relationship with Zack wasn't serious despite the fact that she can't stop bringing it up?

And finally, the official commercial approved and released by Squaresoft. The official commercial approved by Squaresoft includes the word “Love” during the scene when Cloud holds Aerith in his arms. This commercial was approved by Squarsoft BEFORE team Tifa and team Aerith were established. I need no more proof than that. But if all this still doesn’t convince you, just go look at the official artwork.

So it's artwork and commercials that decide canon pairings?

What if there are multiple versions of the commercial? Does that make none of them canon?

I’ll end this with…

Cait Sith:
“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!”
“Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!”

—You can claim Cait Sith isn’t always accurate with his predictions, but this was obviously an attempt by Squaresoft to further illustrate that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together—

And then she dies......

Oh and TLS, please offer a retraction claiming Tifa and Cloud are canon. Two Highwind scenes exist, and the scene you use as proof is optional, therefore, NOT canon. Omitting a page that disproves your THEORY is shady business!

I'm sure they will get right on that.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Hey, look, someone new to debate with showed up. Sadly I, and nearly everyone else here, have already discussed essentially every point you made BlankBeat. It has already been weighed, measured, and found wanting. Feel free to scroll back through the thread and see what we had to say about page 242, about how commercials prove absolutely nothing, and so on.

 

[null]

But from beginning to end, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith and only thought of Tifa as nothing more than a childhood acquaintance that was brought back into his life due to a series of coincidences.

Here is my problem with C/A: it's very liberal with its interpretation of what qualifies as Cloud being romantic with Aerith, but when Cloud shows similar (or more poignant) behavior toward Tifa, it gets dismissed, ignored, danced around or rationalized with absurd extra-narrative theories (i.e. color symbolism).

Just be consistent. Does Cloud love Aerith? If you think so, fine, but don't twist the rest of Cloud's story to pretend it isn't wrapped around him being with Tifa. To say nothing of the ubiquitous argument that Cloud is in a continuing relationship with Spirit Aerith.

 

[BlankBeat]

Why does one of the Highwind versions have to be canon? If Squaresoft wanted one version to be canon, they would have simply included one version. It's that simple.

Squaresoft purposely created two versions because they wanted each player to decide individually who Cloud was romantically interested in (thus the reasoning behind affection points). Nowhere does Squaresoft specifically say that the high affection version is canon.

The low affection scene has just as much right to be canon, especially when you consider that Squaresoft purposely created the game so that multiple scenarios could unfold depending on the choices each player made. These choices, might I add, were purposely placed in the game so that we, as players, could have some control over how the story unfolds.

Whose to say certain choices are more valid than others? Whose to say that one version is more correct than the other? Surely it's not up to any of us to decide this! And Squaresoft has made it a point to not proclaim which is the correct version because NEITHER version is more valid than the other; especially considering both are plausible options given to us by Squaresoft.

Let us remember that in the low affection scene Tifa does not say, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people that you're thinking…". Furthermore, in the low affection scene Cloud says, "We'd better get some sleep". Hardly romantic.

The bottom line is: nowhere does Squaresoft say the low affection scene is any less valid than the high affection scene. Both are equally viable and valid options, and you need no more proof than the fact that Sqauresoft includes both in the game.

Squaresoft simply used the high affection scene on a page in their 20th Anniversary Ultimania showing numerous couples in the world of Final Fantasy (a picture of Aerith and Cloud is also on this page). To include the high affection scene on a page discussing Final Fantasy couples makes sense, but it surly doesn't make it canon.

The fact remains -- Cloud and Tifa are only a couple if you decide to play the game that way. This is why Squaresoft purposely included information in the Ultimania on page 232 clearly stating that Tifa and Cloud only share their mutual feelings for each other if you, as a the gamer, (based on choices Squaresoft allows you to make), decide to let it unfold that way.

Furthermore, no one has ever denied that Cloud has feelings for Tifa. The question has always been whether these feelings are a romantic love, or a love between two friends. And the LTD debate has always been about who Cloud loves more, not that he doesn't love both for different reasons.

Another point I'd like to bring up is if Aerith had been alive, would this scene have taken place? In my opinion, I highly doubt it. Granted, this is an impossible question to answer with complete certainty but based on how I chose to play the game, it was clear to me that Cloud preferred Aerith.

As for all the other points that you guys have responded to…well, I'll have to get to those later

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Granted, this is an impossible question to answer with complete certainty but based on how I chose to play the game, it was clear to me that Cloud preferred Aerith.

That means you preferred Aerith, then, not that Cloud necessarily did.



And you're very wrong about optional events not having canon outcomes. A very large number do. As a random example, you have to pick either Red XIII or Barret to leave the Black Materia with in the Whirlwind Maze.

Reminiscence of FFVII (and the Ultimanias too, as I recall) show that Cloud picked Red XIII.

 

[BlankBeat]

Here are some of the points I needed to defend...

1. Yoshitaka Amano drew artwork of the canon couples for Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy X. So why are 6 of Yoshitaka's Final Fantasy VII drawings of Aerith and Cloud? None of them are of Cloud and Tifa. This might not prove Aerith and Cloud are the canon couple, but it surly provides evidence to support the intent of the creators. The same goes for the commercial. It doesn't prove that Aerith and Cloud are the canon couple, but it adds to the intent of the creators. When you combine these two coincidences together, it supports a larger, more broad conclusion -- that Aerith and Cloud were the intended couple by Squaresoft.

2. If Cloud didn't cry when Aerith died why did he say his eyes were burning?

3. As a child Cloud had a crush on Tifa. That doesn't mean his crush extended into adulthood, nor does it take away from any feelings he may have had towards Aerith. The crush was also never reciprocated by Tifa during their childhood.

In addition, Tifa had to convince Cloud to make her a promise -- a promise Cloud doesn't even remember making. This obviously suggests that this memory was not very influential on Cloud, and had little influence on his adult feelings.

4. Aerith recognized, by her own omission, that Cloud and Zack were different people. Aerith also stated that she wanted to get to know the 'real' Cloud and that she had moved on from her past feelings for Zack. In addition, I believe Aerith only brought Zack up a total of three times during the game. Aerith clearly stated that her and Zack were not in a serious relationship, and that Zack probably moved on because he was a ladies man.

Let us also remember that Cloud joined AVALANCE not because Tifa asked him, but because Barret offered Cloud a large sum of money. But Cloud offered to be Aerith's bodyguard with the promise of one date!

 

[Celes Chere]

How can this website claim that Cloti is cannon?

Views you don't agree with! On the internet!
"THIS IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION~"

that was brought back into his life due to a series of coincidences.

How was Tifa brought back into his life? She never left it. I hardly see how Cloud taking Zack's place and going back to Midgar is a 'coincidence'.

if Aerith had been alive, would this scene have taken place?

Honestly? Who cares. That kind of statement doesn't belong in a debate where people present their facts. The fact of the matter is, Aerith wasn't there. Why should we create scenarios that don't exist and see what happens?

 

[BlankBeat]

That means you preferred Aerith, then, not that Cloud necessarily did.

And you're very wrong about optional events not having canon outcomes. A very large number do. As a random example, you have to pick either Red XIII or Barret to leave the Black Materia with in the Whirlwind Maze.

Reminiscence of FFVII (and the Ultimanias too, as I recall) show that Cloud picked Red XIII.

Yes, it was based on my personal preference. But there are numerous parts of the story that weren't optional that suggest to me that Cloud preferred Aerith.

Yes, some optional events have canon outcomes. But Squaresoft has never explicitly stated which Highwind scene is canon. All they did was include the high affection scene on a page that included all the Final Fantasy couples -- Aerith and Cloud were also included on this page.

Squaresoft also pointed out the scene they included on that page was the high affection scene, not necessarily the canon one.

 

[BlankBeat]

How was Tifa brought back into his life? She never left it. I hardly see how Cloud taking Zack's place and going back to Midgar is a 'coincidence'.

If I remember the story correctly, Cloud randomly stumbles on the mission Barret and his crew were conducing. This leads Cloud to Tifa. But without randomly stumbling on AVALANCHE'S mission, would Cloud have gone to Tifa's?

Honestly? Who cares. That kind of statement doesn't belong in a debate where people present their facts. The fact of the matter is, Aerith wasn't there. Why should we create scenarios that don't exist and see what happens?

I'm just bringing it up because this debate revolves around who Cloud loves more. In order to determine who Cloud loves more, aren't Cloud's actions while Aerith and Tifa were both alive more valid than his actions after Aerith passed away?