The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Splintered]

In addition, Tifa had to convince Cloud to make her a promise -- a promise Cloud doesn't even remember making. This obviously suggests that this memory was not very influential on Cloud, and had little influence on his adult feelings.

Really, forced? I mean, she pushed him to do it, but he didn't really sound reluctant. Just confused. Unless of course saying "C'mon just promise" is REALLY FORCED OH GOD SHE'S THROWING HERSELF AT HIM.

And ragging on him for not remembering is quite frankly, silly considering his mental state. Cloud's memory had gaps and he didn't even have a firm grip on himself. Tifa mentions plenty of times that he knew things he shouldn't, but couldn't remember things that he should.

When Cloud was reconstructing who he was to the very core, it was these memories he recalled. During the lifestream sequence, apparitions of Cloud made references to precious memories. Cloud remembered how the sky looked that night. Hell, the memory of that night is actually referenced in one of the guides

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory

If Cloud refers to the death of Tifa's mother as one of those significant memories, then who wouldn't Cloud and Tifa's memory. Thematically it reappears throughout the game, in the form of the promise, and maybe even Cloud's inability to save Tifa in time like he promised. It even gets a nod in Dissidia. I'm not going to try use this as infallible proof of Cloti, but dismissing the significance it had on Cloud when it helped reconstruct Cloud's personality at his core just doesn't work.

4. Aerith recognized, by her own omission, that Cloud and Zack were different people. Aerith also stated that she wanted to get to know the 'real' Cloud and that she had moved on from her past feelings for Zack. In addition, I believe Aerith only brought Zack up a total of three times during the game. Aerith clearly stated that her and Zack were not in a serious relationship, and that Zack probably moved on because he was a ladies man.

I also believe that Aerith loved Cloud for who he was and not for Zack.

But I do not believe that Aerith and Zack's relationship was in anyway insignificant to her or even who she became as a person. Zack and Aerith in a way grew up together, they had positive influences on each other and changed their outlooks on life.

But beyond that, Aerith is the kind of girl that would try to shrug off pain. She laughs off almost getting kidnapped by Shinra, even though flashbacks show it threw her into turmoil. She says that Zack and her weren't serious, but it was serious enough for Zack to be willing to go into the headquarters of the dominating evil empire to go see her, and for Aerith's mother to distrust Cloud because she saw how it hurt Aerith.

I don't even know how this arguments works with the universe expansion in Crisis Core. Their relationship was serious enough for her to send letters over the years despite having no contact.



Oh right, I remember why I started replying

This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.

lol. Deception and conspiracy.

LTD never change.

Oh and TLS, please offer a retraction claiming Tifa and Cloud are canon. Two Highwind scenes exist, and the scene you use as proof is optional, therefore, NOT canon. Omitting a page that disproves your THEORY is shady business

I'm going to take a second and nitpick on why I brought up the previous lol, this proves that you don't know shit about TLS. TLS does not work this way, it is not a pairing site, it's a Final Fantasy site with a number of different articles written by different admins. The majority of TLS doesn't give a shit about LTD, if an article came tomorrow about how Cloud/Aerith were canon, TLS would still not give a shit.

You want to demand something, you can try arguing with Ryu. Good luck, because he has stated a number of times why he wrote the article the way he wrote it that way. Also there is a link to the translation in its fullest. Right there. You can't miss it.

If you are going to say the translator is deceptive then LOL. No- the people that translate here are good people that do hard work and have made every effort to be as faithful to the message because they are fans of the series and would probably vomit pixels before they purposely screw up their own work. In almost every fandom I've been in, translators take pride in their work.

Sorry if I'm coming off as an asshole, I'm sure you are a perfectly lovely person, but I have a severe problem with people using language like "deception" and implying that they are underhanded in the way they did things when time and time again they have replied to criticisms and never shied away from debate.

 

[Wolfmania]

Yes, some optional events have canon outcomes. But Squaresoft has never explicitly stated which Highwind scene is canon. All they did was include the high affection scene on a page that included all the Final Fantasy couples -- Aerith and Cloud were also included on this page.

Squaresoft also pointed out the scene they included on that page was the high affection scene, not necessarily the canon one.

No, sorry. Your paradigm is wrong, your method of analyzing fiction is faulty.

All optional events have one canon outcome in regards to the continuum of the compilation. This isn't a deviation from any kind of fictional standard, SE did not make the compilation 'your personal interpretation matters', It has a fixed story, like SeeD exemplified.

Examples? Vincent and Yuffie were found. Red got the Black Materia from Cloud. Corneo survived, etc...

The compilation cannot have two sets of continuums. However, what matters here is nothing implied the creator's never gave thought to what HW scene was the one they chose for their canon continuum, and to assume so and to assume neither version has merit over the other due to your own interpretation over the issue of separe continuums is nothing short of ludicrous. The creator's chose something to make the compilation in each optional event. They chose something in the HW scene as well.

Now, how do we determine which one is correct? Well, there isn't an outright statement such as 'Red was the one Cloud chose', but there is a mountain of evidence pointing to the HA HW scene. Which, through conjecture, means proof. Much like the theory of evolution.

Which is what everyone in the history of this thread has been exemplifying. So, If you would be so kind as to read those posts...

Edit: I should also remind you that an entry stating Cloud and Tifa share the same feelings for each other, in a page detailing events which happened to the canon couples of their series's in their own continuum should be proof enough of canocity for anyone. That is the 20th Ultimania, and like all others, just portrays canon events.

It also has a photo of Aerith and Cloud on the date, a caption which expicits that Cloud took one of his companions on a date and nothing more. Be it Aerith or not, I don't care. I'd actually like it if it were Aerith, it dosen't change any of the facts in the dicussion.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Whee, newbie tries to overload us with words, claims, long refuted arguments, and mistakes cannon and canon for each other.

I'm feeling nostalgic, no, really, I actually am.

 

[Celes Chere]

If I remember the story correctly, Cloud randomly stumbles on the mission Barret and his crew were conducing. This leads Cloud to Tifa. But without randomly stumbling on AVALANCHE'S mission, would Cloud have gone to Tifa's?

Maybe, maybe not? The fact of the matter is, Tifa never left Cloud's life. He slept for four years, was mako poisoned, watch his best friend die, and then got messed in the head... and Tifa is the only one who saves him from all of that - in fact, is the only person who is able to help him discover his true self. I would not say that they met because a series of coincidences. Cloud went to Midgar to become a mercenary, like Zack had wanted. That's how he got involved with all of that nonsense and claimed to be a "Jack of all Trades". He probably would have met Avalanche and then Tifa, one way or another.

I think downplaying Tifa's importance, gets us no where. Let's go with what we know, instead of what *might* have happened. Cloud met Tifa, and instantly she knew he wasn't himself. She knew a lot of things he was saying, were not true. She even got confused herself. The two figure this out all together, and connect on a level that is above any other connection in the game. That's a fact. I think this connection is romantic - that's my opinion.

In order to determine who Cloud loves more, aren't Cloud's actions while Aerith and Tifa were both alive more valid than his actions after Aerith passed away?

Hm, I disagree. Cloud and Aerith still connect after she dies -- Aerith is still important to Cloud after she dies. I find it absurd that people think that after a person dies, they don't matter anymore. =/ Cloud's bond with Aerith is still strong even after she passes away, so analyzing it as a whole is more important imo.

 

[Vendel]

If I remember the story correctly, Cloud randomly stumbles on the mission Barret and his crew were conducing. This leads Cloud to Tifa. But without randomly stumbling on AVALANCHE'S mission, would Cloud have gone to Tifa's?

Tifa found a messed up Cloud at the train station. The Jenova cells in his body read Tifa's memories and Cloud returns to "normal".

 

[Splintered]

Maybe, maybe not? The fact of the matter is, Tifa never left Cloud's life. He slept for four years, was mako poisoned, watch his best friend die, and then got messed in the head... and Tifa is the only one who saves him from all of that - in fact, is the only person who is able to help him discover his true self.

Exactly, Tifa is critical to finding out the parts of Cloud that he hid from the world and hid from himself. Had Aerith not died, I believe that some form of the same situation would have happened regardless.

Mostly because the lifestream sequence, while maybe romantic, is also a significant step in the story of both Tifa and Cloud in who they are as a character. FFVII was never a love story. Not even close. We've talked about this before, but I always framed it as a "Find yourself story"- with Sephiroth and Cloud's personal coming of age and figuring out who you are story being filled with lies, self delusions, and scientific malicious tampering, and Aerith being a more natural, honest, one with the earth story.

In this way, Tifa is invaluable because she has a connection that cannot be replaced. Aerith does too of course, hers is a spiritual, tragic, and "fated meeting"- and arguably romantic of course. But Tifa is a grounding presence, one that accepts his faults but at the same time pushes him past the ones that debilitate him, and that taps in who he is as a person rather than simply as a lover. And in my opinion, is also romantic.

I think the highwind scene is a natural segue from the lifestream scene. Their issue has always been about communication, communicating their feelings and communicating who they are as flawed people to each other. And that no matter what happens, they'll be together (lovers, best friends, who knows- but by the end of Advent Children- they are undeniably family). After finding about the truth of what happened and themselves (and Tifa finally having the courage to face the issues between them)- there had to be a scene where they show the truth of the relationship in the present.

That and I believe that Aerith would have gone home to her mother. Actually I'm quite pissed that you couldn't tell her mom that she died, considering there was plenty of ALL MY TEARS potential. They touched on it in the novels and its one of the things that spirals Cloud into his instaguilt mode and- wait I forgot what I was suppose to talk about. :[

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yes, it was based on my personal preference. But there are numerous parts of the story that weren't optional that suggest to me that Cloud preferred Aerith.

Name these non-optional story segments. Which bits? Was it the Cait Sith bit in the Temple o' da Ancients? Maybe the bit around the fire in Cosmo Canyon? Something that hasn't been discussed to death already, dare I hope?

Yes, some optional events have canon outcomes.

Nah, for this particular game all optional events have a cannon outcome. We might not know what all of them are (for instance we've never heard back on whether Cloud and Co. actually shelled out the Gil to hire mercenaries at Fort Condor or if they just beat the shit out of the Shinra themselves) but they definitely happened one way or the other. This isn't the Discworld, where there are no discrepancies in the timeline since both versions happened in one part of the multi-verse or the other. It's not The Joker's backstory, which could have happened one way or perhaps another. Or another. It is not multiple choice.

But Squaresoft has never explicitly stated which Highwind scene is canon.

Oh look, more demands for a press conference. I love how a goodly number of the folks who have defended Clerith over the years can read between the lines for all kinds of Clerith "evidence" but couldn't wouldn't see the clear implications of the Highwind Scene's HA version if it was stamped on a brick and thrown at their head.

All they did was include the high affection scene on a page that included all the Final Fantasy couples

You're almost seeing the light, keep going just a little further...

-- Aerith and Cloud were also included on this page.

Damn, you lost it. Also, no they weren't. There was a picture to illustrate a blurb about the genuinely optional date sequence that they chose Aerith's date for. The text of said blurb does not so much as mention the flower girl by name.

Squaresoft also pointed out the scene they included on that page was the high affection scene, not necessarily the canon one.

Or, and I know this might sound like insane gibberish to you but hear me out... maybe, just maybe, the discussion of that scene on THAT page of the Ultimania is in fact what confirms which version happened. As if the compilation doesn't do enough to confirm such without such a mention.

If I remember the story correctly, Cloud randomly stumbles on the mission Barret and his crew were conducing. This leads Cloud to Tifa. But without randomly stumbling on AVALANCHE'S mission, would Cloud have gone to Tifa's?

Then you're remembering the story very wrong. Tifa is the one who stumbled across Cloud, all loopy and out of it, sitting at the Sector Seven Train Station in the slums. And while he obviously didn't actually recover, he immediately pulls himself together into a false but functional persona when he recognizes her. So turn your "what if?" around there fella. If Aerith, whom Cloud wouldn't know from Eve at that point in time, had found him there would Cloud have recovered at all? Or would he still be rocking back and forth and drooling, unable to remember jack shit from Mako poisoning and trauma?

I'm just bringing it up because this debate revolves around who Cloud loves more.

That's one way of looking at it I suppose. Gonna have to voice the opinion that no, for me its about who Cloud loved romantically at all. In case you didn't read through this thread (or the others like it), and who could blame ya if you didn't, I'm of the opinion that there was potential with Aerith and attraction for sure... but no, the romance was all for Tifa.

In order to determine who Cloud loves more, aren't Cloud's actions while Aerith and Tifa were both alive more valid than his actions after Aerith passed away?

Gonna have to agree with my little sister on this one, Cloud's actions and what insight we get into his mind/heart in total beats his actions and such during the limited time Aerith was alive and well. Don't miss the forest for staring at the trees and all.

Also, welcome to the forums. And forgive me for not saying it sooner. It occurs to me that, without tone of voice, body language, and facial expressions to work with, the above might sound somewhat aggressive. In the spirit of making you feel welcome, let me just say that it should properly be read as a bit flippant and perhaps a little taunting instead. I don't know you nearly well enough to be genuinely annoyed, and thus feel no need to throw up actual aggression

 

[BlankBeat]

Yes, I may be a 'newb' when it comes to debating the Final Fantasy VII love triangle. And I may have even used "cannon" and "canon" interchangeably and incorrectly. But I played Final Fantasy VII in 1997, and I have always been a fan of the game and Clerith. Your condescending and belittling nature is dually noted, Ryushikaze. Nice to meet ya!

The page from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania that is fueling this debate provides us with two scenes from Final Fantasy VII. Interestingly, Final Fantasy VII is the only Final Fantasy on the page that shows the protagonist with two love interests. This implies that Squaresoft recognizes the love Cloud has for both Tifa and Aerith. Remember, the debate revolves around who Cloud loves more.

Additionally, both of the scenes Squaresoft included for Final Fantasy VII in the Ultimania are also scenes that unfold a certain way depending on the decisions each individual player makes. The high and low affection, which determines how certain scenes unfold, is explained on page 232. Nowhere does Squaresoft say that the high affection Highwind scene is canon, they simply included that on a page that shows the main love interests of the Final Fantasy series. So to officially declare the love triangle debate over, when no official statement from Square has been made, is completely disingenuous and misleading (especially when Squaresoft made a point to differentiate between the low and high affection Highwind scenes on page 232, AND they included a picture of Cloud and Aerith together).

But if one scene must be chosen for the compilation, Squaresoft has been very unclear which one is the canon one. In many ways, however, Advent Children suggests the low affection Highwind scene is the correct one. Cloud is shown living in Aerith's church and acting distant and cold towards. Also, very few if any real romantic scenes are shown between Cloud and Tifa, and it seems Cloud's mind always wanders to Aerith. This suggests, to me anyway, that Cloud and Tifa are great friend and share a love that is purely build around a friendship. I know that some would argue this, but come on. Cloud's living in Aerith's church for gods sake!

Anyway…I can't respond to all the other points yet. This is already taking a ton of my time as it is! I'm not use to debating on forums.

Also…sorry to anyone who took offense to me claiming that the lifestream article deceptively left out page 232. I just find that article to be completely ridiculous to boldly claim the debate is over. Square did not say the high affection Highwind scene is canon, nor did they claim Tifa and Cloud were the canon couple. In fact, they included both Aerith and Tifa with Cloud on the page in question. The debate is far from over and I feel as though that Lifestream article has spread the false idea that Square officially said Cloti is canon.

 

[Celes Chere]

Tbh Blank Beat, most of us don't get offended over silly things. A lot of us are just... sarcastic assholes.

lol jk~ but really no offense taken and none meant to you either and don't worry about not being able to reply to everything! take your time because no1curr how long it takes you. Or at least they shouldn't. =P

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Forgive me for jumping in yet again when you are already stating you're short on time, but I got shit else to do right now and I do so enjoy this thread when it actually moves.

Yes, I may be a 'newb' when it comes to debating the Final Fantasy VII love triangle. And I may have even used "cannon" and "canon" interchangeably and incorrectly. But I played Final Fantasy VII in 1997, and I have always been a fan of the game and Clerith. Your condescending and belittling nature is dually noted, Ryushikaze. Nice to meet ya!

Everyone is a newb at some point in time. I have been known to have an improper number of N's in that word myself. Don't let that sort of thing get ya too down. But be aware, many of us played FFVII back in '97 as well and have been fans ever since. You have no advantage when it comes to that.

And if you think that's Ryu being condescending and belittling, you ain't seen nothing yet. Throw a few logical fallacies into your posts and see how quick he turns it up to 11

The page from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania that is fueling this debate

Lemme pause right there, and remind you that the debate is not even close to being fueled solely by that one page. There is an absolute shit-ton of evidence from the compilation supporting Cloud and Tifa, as a couple, being the one true pairing of the story.

provides us with two scenes from Final Fantasy VII. Interestingly, Final Fantasy VII is the only Final Fantasy on the page that shows the protagonist with two love interests. This implies that Squaresoft recognizes the love Cloud has for both Tifa and Aerith. Remember, the debate revolves around who Cloud loves more.

False claim. Cloud is shown, in the main body of the page which actually discusses the romance, with Tifa. Aerith is not mentioned in any way, shape, or form. She is pictured, yes, but refer to my previous post regarding how the text trumps an image easily.

Remember also, even if the LA version was on equal footing with the HA, which it is not... the LA version still has fuck-all to do with Aerith. She isn't mentioned in either version of the Highwind scene. So, once again if the LA version had equal footing, it would be anti-Cloti at best, not pro-Clerith.

Additionally, both of the scenes Squaresoft included for Final Fantasy VII in the Ultimania are also scenes that unfold a certain way depending on the decisions each individual player makes.

Yes, this is typically how alternate scenes in a game work. You make a choice or play a certain way, different stuff shows up in the cutscenes. And this does not in any way stop one or the other from being canonical to the story.

As we have done in the past, I'll briefly step outside the compilation to make the point. Star Wars games (at least those where your character is force sensitive) invariably have the option to turn to the Dark Side. The entire story shifts to account for your evil, evil actions. And yet the Light Side ending is always the canonical version.

The high and low affection, which determines how certain scenes unfold, is explained on page 232.

So if both versions are valid, why in Shiva's name did they put the explanation on a different page? Why not just describe both Aerith and Tifa on the For The One I Love page in the first place?

Nowhere does Squaresoft say that the high affection Highwind scene is canon,

Do note, SE has never and likely will never do this.

they simply included that on a page that shows the main love interests of the Final Fantasy series.

And you... don't find that incredibly telling? That they put the HA version on the page that shows the love interests? And only described the LA version on an entirely separate page? And do note yet again, the LA version is not pro-Clerith.

So to officially declare the love triangle debate over,

The debate will never be over really. A more accurate title for that article might have been "The LTD Should Be Over!" That's kinda the joke dude.

when no official statement from Square has been made,

A statement which would be totally unnecessary since the narrative makes it quite clear who ended up with who. And has all but been given anyway.

is completely disingenuous and misleading (especially when Squaresoft made a point to differentiate between the low and high affection Highwind scenes on page 232, AND they included a picture of Cloud and Aerith together).

Disengenuous and misleading how? The information given in that article is entirely correct. Did Ryu somehow mislead the masses with... the truth? Seriously, explain to me how the LA version getting a notation on a separate page invalidates the FTOIL page. Tell me exactly how a picture of Cloud and Aerith, and nothing but a picture, proves anything considering the text is entirely about the date mechanics and not about the narrative.

But if one scene must be chosen for the compilation, Squaresoft has been very unclear which one is the canon one.

Nah, they were perfectly clear. I mean, I can be fairly thick at times and I got it

In many ways, however, Advent Children suggests the low affection Highwind scene is the correct one.

No it bloody well doesn't. Also do make up your mind, are you arguing that the LA version is the correct one or that there IS no correct version?

Cloud is shown living in Aerith's church and acting distant and cold towards.

Towards who? But seriously, yes he is shown doing that. Out of self-pity, a feeling of worthless hoplessness considering his impending death, and a desire to not DIE IN FRONT OF HIS FAMILY who he is explicitly happy with and fearful of losing.

Also, very few if any real romantic scenes are shown between Cloud and Tifa, and it seems Cloud's mind always wanders to Aerith. This suggests, to me anyway, that Cloud and Tifa are great friend and share a love that is purely build around a friendship. I know that some would argue this, but come on. Cloud's living in Aerith's church for gods sake!

Cloud's mind wanders to Aerith out of a sense of guilt, shame, and a desire to be forgiven. Which is literally the only damn thing he discusses with her when she shows up. The movie was not about Cloud and Tifa's romance, so no there was no huge love scene or anything. The lines Cloud and Tifa have in CoT are not exactly the sort of thing you see between friends, or rather not JUST friends. And about the Church? Yeah, Cloud don't live there anymore. He went home after AC/C, to live with Tifa and their kids. Where he belongs, according to the creators.

Anyway…I can't respond to all the other points yet. This is already taking a ton of my time as it is! I'm not use to debating on forums.

It takes some getting used to, take your time and make good posts. Tis better than rushing forward.

Also…sorry to anyone who took offense to me claiming that the lifestream article deceptively left out page 232.

Apology accepted, for myself at least. Just don't fall back on the "omg this is a biased cloti hellhole!" thing as some folks might and all should be well.

I just find that article to be completely ridiculous to boldly claim the debate is over.

And I find it ridiculous that there are still folks arguing that Cloud and Tifa are not a canonical couple considering all we've seen and been told over the last 15 years. Funny how that works eh?

Square did not say the high affection Highwind scene is canon, nor did they claim Tifa and Cloud were the canon couple. In fact, they included both Aerith and Tifa with Cloud on the page in question. The debate is far from over and I feel as though that Lifestream article has spread the false idea that Square officially said Cloti is canon.

See above, where everything in this paragraph got addressed already.

 

[BlankBeat]

Thanks, Sora.

I'm already feeling overwhelmed and swamped by all of you Cloti supporters! To be honest, I don't know how long I'll last because I've never been one to debate on forums. Plus, it takes an awful lot of time to construct responses.

Honestly, my knowledge of the entire Final Fantasy VII universe is very limited. I've only seen Advent Children and played Final Fantasy VII. As for the rest of the Final Fantasy VII compilation, I've only read about it online. But from as far back as I can remember, I've always thought Cloud and Aerith were the intended pair.

However, this debate seems to be never-ending and both sides appear as though they'll never agree. Sadly, it appears as if the Cloti pairing is now universally accepted by most FFVII fans...which I don't think was ever the intention of Square. They purposely set the game up as a love triangle, and I honestly think Cloud has love for both Aerith and Tifa. I just personally feel as though his love for Aerith was stronger. From numerous points throughout FFVII, to seeing Cloud in Aerith's church in Advent Children, it has only confirmed to me Cloud's romantic love for Aerith, and his feelings of a loving friendship for Tifa.

Anyway...I look forward to reading all of your responses but I don't know how much longer I can last. Considering how long you guys have been debating this, and how much you all know about the compilation, I'm at a great disadvantage. The primary reason I decided to come and share my ideas is because it came as a great surprise to me when I started looking online to see that Cloiti was the more popular pairing. I guess I always felt more drawn and attached to Aerith. Never in a million years would I have predicted Cloti was more popular than Clerith! It still boggles my mind.

I'm sure you have seen these websites before...but if you haven't, please take a look. The essays on these websties are far more thoroughly researched than anything I could produce:
http://www.cloudandaerith.com/
http://clerith.heliohost.org/Menu.htm

PS: I know some of you have responded to a few of these essays, but they really are well-written and researched. They might be worth a second look! Some of them have even been updated as of late.

 

[Splintered]

Your condescending and belittling nature is dually noted, Ryushikaze. Nice to meet ya!

lol no jk about it, Ryu is a sarcastic asshole. No flamin', because he admits and takes pride in it. There's a heavy dose of sarcasm and aggressiveness here, you just have to find your own pace. Don't worry about pressure.

Also, very few if any real romantic scenes are shown between Cloud and Tifa, and it seems Cloud's mind always wanders to Aerith.

Ehhh, I could say the same things about Aerith. We could put all of the interactions on Cloud and Tifa as simply friends/family on edge the same way we can attribute all the way he thinks about Aerith in the compilation as a symbol of his guilt and self depreciation. I don't buy it though.

Cloud has a strong connection with Aerith that I feel was diluted by guilt but not overcome by it. And just because Tifa and Cloud's interaction had a dynamic that could be attributed to platonic feelings, doesn't mean that's all their relationship was about- imo their relationship was always a complex, multifaced- and it IS firendship, but it's also romantic tension, it's also somewhat Tifa as a caretaker, and it's also a family wife-husband....y something or other.

Cloud's living in Aerith's church for gods sake!

As a way to run away from reality. He also lives and has a life and business with Tifa. Something that he wanted to do as mentioned by the the Case of Tifa novel. And more than likely moves back in once his baggage is gone.

 

[Danseru-kun]

But it's vastly different from what I think most people who wind up Cloud/Tifa shippers experience when they go through the compilation (I miss being able to say just "play the game" ), and it definitely relies on a completely different interpretation of Cloud.

I agree with this. Shipping Clerith is not just wanting two characters to be together, but a whole different interpretation of canon. By that interpretation, somehow, much of Cloud's actions and inner struggles are caused by his love for Aerith. Though I don't agree with it, that kind of perspective is nothing to be ashamed of or bashed for.

They're able to discuss their wider view of the narrative and while it's showing areas of vast disagreement, there's an openness to the thought process behind the Cloud/Aeris perspective that I don't think existed in this thread.

I think the whole forum is open to C/A, the issue though is that we're analyzing things by the text, through verbatim, while C/A tends analyze things through Cloud's possible thought process/motivations for his actions and every appearance of Cloud and Aerith together is interpreted as part of the telling of their love story. Almost everytime, the same doesn't apply to Tifa though in that kind of analysis.

.............aaaaaand I just compared Cloud/Aeris to religion. I think that's a sign I need my morning tea.

If you are to ask me I think the whole FFVII fandom is like religion. However, people interpret the Word of SE differently (while some don't really study it at all.) Sometimes there are sources like commercials, figurines or color symbolism that some people think are prophetic messages, while some don't buy it because it's not in the Word of SE. I have a religion myself so I know how messy it can be.

Here is my problem with C/A: it's very liberal with its interpretation of what qualifies as Cloud being romantic with Aerith, but when Cloud shows similar (or more poignant) behavior toward Tifa, it gets dismissed, ignored, danced around or rationalized with absurd extra-narrative theories (i.e. color symbolism).

Agree. Also, in response to the "what if" scenarios. I have the problem with the belief that if Aerith had lived she and Cloud would surely be together, relationship problems won't exist, Cloud will be a better man , everything is bright and happy. Tifa , on the other hand, is not compatible to Cloud at all, she doesn't help him and he's not happy with her. Only Aerith will do and Tifa would never be enough. The "what if" scenario is exaggerated into a scenario that has no room for Cloti. In a way, C/A can ironically use "the Aerith is dead" argument to fit their advantage to show that death is the only reason why Cloud and Aerith aren't "together."

Yes, I may be a 'newb' when it comes to debating the Final Fantasy VII love triangle. And I may have even used "cannon" and "canon" interchangeably and incorrectly. But I played Final Fantasy VII in 1997, and I have always been a fan of the game and Clerith. Your condescending and belittling nature is dually noted, Ryushikaze. Nice to meet ya!

I never even played FFVII but I'll still here debating and enjoying the fandom. I was a newb once so I understand the feeling and I just joined here a few months ago. They may sound harsh at debating canon but people here are generally mature, I guarantee it. But they can be frank and candid. Also, please take away any impression that this is Cloti forum, go to the other sections and find out.

Also…sorry to anyone who took offense to me claiming that the lifestream article deceptively left out page 232. I just find that article to be completely ridiculous to boldly claim the debate is over. Square did not say the high affection Highwind scene is canon, nor did they claim Tifa and Cloud were the canon couple. In fact, they included both Aerith and Tifa with Cloud on the page in question. The debate is far from over and I feel as though that Lifestream article has spread the false idea that Square officially said Cloti is canon.

Actually, if you read this article carefully all your arguments are already answered or debunked. If you're not happy with some of the explanation there, just clarify them or bring them here. Also, most , if not all of your argument were already addressed in the past 100 pages so if you feel that we're not giving you complete answers, it's because we have already said them over and over again and it's tiring to repeat. The Love Triangle is Over article is of course an incomplete one, and just an announcement with Ted Koppel's face.

Also, this is old but I'll tell you the gist of it. In Cloud and Tifa's profiles, story summaries and other places, Cloud and Tifa is said to have "communicated their feelings" with each other. Doesn't say what feelings? An explanation at one page says "feelings of desire/wanting another."

クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「ＡＣ」「Ｄ Ｃ」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
("She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.")

最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせ。
("Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.")

クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
("When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. ")

(These are just 3, there are around 5 more)

Also, all our sources (people who know Japanese) - Blade, JayM, Ryu, Tres, Quex, Japanforum, allexperts indicate that the quote used for Cloud and Tifa are mostly romantic, if not, it's something that cannot be apathetic and contradictory to low affection. If you can find us a source saying that the 想いを通わせ quote can be used for low affection, then your argument would be supported.

Blankbeat, I know you might be overwhelmed to the amount of response and you're just alone, but if you want to debate with only one or two people, you can tell us and we can honor your request. We can't stop people from reacting though. But still, welcome here and have fun. ^__^

 

[Vendel]

I agree with this. Shipping Clerith is not just wanting two characters to be together, but a whole different interpretation of canon. By that interpretation, somehow, much of Cloud's actions and inner struggles are caused by his love for Aerith. Though I don't agree with it, that kind of perspective is nothing to be ashamed of or bashed for.

Sure it is.

Not only is it demonstrably wrong. That interpretation turns Cloud and Tifa into horrible people. Not to mention making the story nearly incomprehensible. Even to them.

And to be clear, this isn't "shipping clerith", It's "Cloud really loves Aerith and not Tifa".

If you are to ask me I think the whole FFVII fandom is like religion. However, people interpret the Word of SE differently (while some don't really study it at all.) Sometimes there are sources like commercials or color symbolisms that some people think are prophetic messages, while some don't buy it.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the people who accept canon pulling out color symbolism or artwork or even the ever faithful commercials.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Aw Vendel, not all Cleriths think like how you described them. And not all of them rub their interpretation to our faces and use it as proof for debates. Peace

Sure it is.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the people who accept canon pulling out color symbolism or artwork or even the ever faithful commercials.

The problem is when those interpretations are favored over the Word of SE. I agree with you that people who are strictly canon won't buy those stuff.

 

[Celes Chere]

Sadly, it appears as if the Cloti pairing is now universally accepted by most FFVII fans

Really? I feel it's still pretty equal. I think it might seem that way because a lot of people really liked Zerith after Crisis Core. xD It really depends on where you go and what you happen to see!

Anyway...I look forward to reading all of your responses but I don't know how much longer I can last. Considering how long you guys have been debating this, and how much you all know about the compilation, I'm at a great disadvantage.

Well... the debate aside, could you share your views with us about Cloud x Aerith anyway and why you think it's canon? Just because I have a general interest and I like seeing the other side to things. I see what you've brought already, but I think if you posted a really long post of all your Clerith feels that'd be really cool! Actually, you could post that one in the Clerith Club it needs more love! And that way you could share without debate and instead discuss. Just a thought though. :'D

 

[Vendel]

Aw Vendel, not all Cleriths think like how you described them. And not all of them rub their interpretation to our faces and use it as proof for debates. Peace

I did qualify my statement.

Really? I feel it's still pretty equal. I think it might seem that way because a lot of people really liked Zerith after Crisis Core. xD It really depends on where you go and what you happen to see!

I think they meant "universally accepted" as in "canon". Which would be very accurate statement. Not who ships what.





Now on with the show!

1. Yoshitaka Amano drew artwork of the canon couples for Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy X. So why are 6 of Yoshitaka's Final Fantasy VII drawings of Aerith and Cloud? None of them are of Cloud and Tifa. This might not prove Aerith and Cloud are the canon couple, but it surly provides evidence to support the intent of the creators. The same goes for the commercial. It doesn't prove that Aerith and Cloud are the canon couple, but it adds to the intent of the creators. When you combine these two coincidences together, it supports a larger, more broad conclusion -- that Aerith and Cloud were the intended couple by Squaresoft.

There is bunch of FF artwork out there. None of it means anything. The same goes for the commercials.

2. If Cloud didn't cry when Aerith died why did he say his eyes were burning?

Wet eyes don't normally burn.

3. As a child Cloud had a crush on Tifa. That doesn't mean his crush extended into adulthood, nor does it take away from any feelings he may have had towards Aerith. The crush was also never reciprocated by Tifa during their childhood.

Both of your crush points are refuted by the lifestream sequence.

In addition, Tifa had to convince Cloud to make her a promise -- a promise Cloud doesn't even remember making. This obviously suggests that this memory was not very influential on Cloud, and had little influence on his adult feelings.

The memory is actually one of the most dear Cloud holds. You again become aware of this in the lifestream sequence. Well after you should have figured out Cloud was not in his right mind up to that point.

4. Aerith recognized, by her own omission, that Cloud and Zack were different people.

It took her long enough to figure that out.....

Aerith also stated that she wanted to get to know the 'real' Cloud and that she had moved on from her past feelings for Zack.

In an optional scene. I have played it many times where Aerith never makes these decelerations. Either way she still dies with Cloud being totally unaware she had feelings for him.

In addition, I believe Aerith only brought Zack up a total of three times during the game. Aerith clearly stated that her and Zack were not in a serious relationship, and that Zack probably moved on because he was a ladies man.

So she only brought up her dead ex three times to the man who she was chasing after and projecting her feelings for the ex on? The fact that she straight up lies about them not being serious and Zack moving on should be another big ole honking clue that she is in fact no where near over Zack.

Let us also remember that Cloud joined AVALANCE not because Tifa asked him, but because Barret offered Cloud a large sum of money.

The Ultimania would disagree. He joins because of Tifa.

But Cloud offered to be Aerith's bodyguard with the promise of one date!

And then he tries to flee from her the first chance he gets. Only Aerith's super stalker teleporting skills keep Cloud in her clutches.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Just to add to my previous post. I think many people confuse the reasons to ship a couple and the reasons why the couple is canon. A lot of C/A from my experience use arguments on why they don't ship Cloti than to use official statements. Examples of this is the notorious "Cloud and Tifa aren't compatible" argument. Whether that is right or wrong it will not help in proving or disproving canon. Some people assume that folks here that believe that Cloti is canon, are also Cloti shippers, which is not always true.

EDIT:

I'm sure you have seen these websites before...but if you haven't, please take a look. The essays on these websties are far more thoroughly researched than anything I could produce:
http://www.cloudandaerith.com/
http://clerith.heliohost.org/Menu.htm

The writer of the essays there is Anastar (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) who had been an active participant in this debate and the main representative of the C/A forums. However, she hasn't replied for a month now leaving a ton of rebuttals unanswered. A lot of people from that website too posted here but they all left. Read the last 100 pages and judge for yourself if we're the ones who were at fault.

 

[Roger]

How can this website claim that Cloti is cannon? If this were an official newspaper I would call for a retraction!

1. There are two versions of the Highwind scene depending on the level of affection Tifa has for Cloud. Given that two versions exist, neither can be canon.

No, it mean that one of two happened. Which one is up to you

2. The page number 232 was listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. After doing some research I discovered that if Tifa has a low affection for Cloud, the Highwind scene is, "apathetic and ends short". This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.

Did you watch the actual scene? They were still going "Word aren't the only way to express feelings" and "you were WATCHING?" Even in the low affection scene they clearly did some stuff.

3. A picture of Cloud's Golden Saucer date with Aerith is also shown in the now infamous 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Given that multiple dates can occur depending on the level of affection each character has for Cloud, none of the dates are canon. If you are going to apply this logic to the date scene, you MUST apply the same logic to the Highwind scene.

One is canon, 1/4 chance Cloud went on a single date with Aerith 2/2 chance he got down with Tifa.

But from beginning to end, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith and only thought of Tifa as nothing more than a childhood acquaintance that was brought back into his life due to a series of coincidences.

A mere childhood that is the reason for everything that he does.

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII.

Primary characters don't equal love interests.

The creators of Final Fantasy VII have stated that Aerith, Barret and Cloud were the original three characters created for the game. This confirms, to me anyway, that Squaresoft always intended Aerith to be the central female character and love interest for Cloud. Just look at the original and official artwork Squaresoft produced. It’s all of Cloud and Aerith together! So the bottom line is this: virtually every Final Fantasy game has official artwork of the two intended love interests. Final Final VII’s original artwork shows Cloud and Aerith. ‘Nuff said.

Again, Kain is on the artwork Cecil is however forking Rosa. (Seifer, Kefka, Terra and Lightning also don't get the sweet loving their artwork seems to suggests)

Given the importance of Aerith during the opening scene, and the fact that Aerith was one of the three original characters, points to the theory that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together from the start.

Aerith was meant to get killed from the start.

From the beginning of the game, I always felt Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together. Cloud chose to be Aerith’s bodyguard with the promise of one date. When Tifa asked Cloud to join AVALANCE, he only did so when Barret promised him a large sum of money. See the difference?

When Tifa managed to get him to STAY with AVALANCHE, he milked Barret for all the money he was worth. The events that led him to join AVALANCHE are a WHOLE different story, a very important chapter in Cloud's life that you are glossing over.

Furthermore, Cloud thought it was Aerith reaching for him during the end of the game. It was ultimately Tifa who was reaching for Cloud, but his heart wanted it to be Aerith.

It was in actuality both of them. He saw Aerith because he was where she was, Aerith had taken him down to the Lifestream to combat Sephiroth there. It wasn't just his imagination running wild. Then Aerith turned into Tifa cause he was back in his body.

If Aerith had lived, things would have been very different. Even in Advent Children, Cloud is shown to be distant and cold towards Tifa while living in Aerith’s Church! If how he acts towards Tifa and where he lives doesn’t tell you where his true feelings lie, I don’t know what does!

Because he DYING and doesn't to be near the children that are staying with Tifa when he turns into black goo, I wouldn't want that on my loved ones either.

Those that say Aerith was meant for Zack are also mistaken. Aerith states that she recognizes Cloud is different than Zack, saying to Cloud, “But you’re different. Things are different…” — Aerith loved Cloud for who he was and recognized that the past was the past. Aerith also states in the game that she wasn’t in a serious relationship with Zack, and that Zack was a ladies man who had probably moved on. In addition, during Aerith and Cloud’s Golden Saucer date, Aerith claims that she wants to get to know the ‘real’ Cloud.

And that's the trick isn't it. The Cloud that Aerith meets was the same as Zack yet different. Aerith wanted to meet the real Cloud.

BUT SHE NEVER DID. The Cloud that Aerith grew close to was an overgrown lie that Cloud wore for TIFA'S sake. An idea based on his perceptions of what a SOLDIER should look like, memories extracted from Tifa's mind of the cool loner uninterested in her that she saw Cloud as during their childhood and Zack's stories. He took that persona because he was at a vulnerable state and was confronted with Tifa, the person he'd promised to return to a SOLDIER First Class. And did everything he could to be the person he thought would most impress her.

That's the tragic love story of FFVII right there.

 

[Master Bates]

http://www.cloudandaerith.com/
http://clerith.heliohost.org/Menu.htm

Now I see where the problem lies.

I'm sorry. I may sound a bit of an asshole in this post but those essays are full of bullshit. For the record, I've read them. I've first stumble upon them approximately a decade ago (memory's bad wrt time). It's full of delusions, lies, misinterpretations, unfounded assumptions, cherrypicked information, ludicrous symbolisms and nonsensical color representations, fanarts and commercial proofs, and more nonsense that makes me wonder what the author(s) were smoking when writing those. Unbelievable, as one may say. And no, I'm not saying this because I'm "LOL CLOTAY", but because I have read those and almost fell victim from the sugarcoated words until I got to the 'meet' part and all the fucks I had went down from 1 to (26584/2653*597-100000^77)*0. I'd hardly call them 'objective' essays, they're more like 'fantastic' essays borderline lsd-induced. Fortunately, I was saved by Squall_of_Seed, Death Sin, and others from way back the glorious GameFAQ days.

Yeah, I sound douchebaggy here so you can stake me now. I regret nothin'.

edit: No, I'm not trying to be hostile towards you. Just towards the essays. Neway, welcome.

@Danseru
IIRC, the essays are mainly authored by FF_Goddess and co-authored by Anastar and Shrouded and contributed by a few minor Cleriths. Or I could be wrong.

 

[Flintlock]

[Square] purposely set the game up as a love triangle, and I honestly think Cloud has love for both Aerith and Tifa.

This is pretty much how I feel about the whole debate. Each side can make their arguments, and some may be more convincing than others, but neither should really claim to be gospel. The fact that the debate still rages fifteen years later is surely as good an indication as any that Cloud's feelings were unclear (I'm not taking any compilation stuff into consideration). That's why I don't understand how people can get so worked up about it. There simply isn't one clear-cut answer, and I think that's absolutely fine.

By the way, I haven't read through this whole thread, the previous debates and all the essays on the internet. Nor do I intend to. Hopefully it's okay for an outsider to come here and state an opinion

 

[Master Bates]

I think Aerith to Cloud is a 'mystery'. A mysterious girl he met at a mysterious time who he has mysterious feelings for which he is unable to explain. And she will always remain a mystery. and the LTD will go on and on and on and on and on... FOREVER

 

[Octo]

This is pretty much how I feel about the whole debate. Each side can make their arguments, and some may be more convincing than others, but neither should really claim to be gospel. The fact that the debate still rages fifteen years later is surely as good an indication as any that Cloud's feelings were unclear (I'm not taking any compilation stuff into consideration). That's why I don't understand how people can get so worked up about it. There simply isn't one clear-cut answer, and I think that's absolutely fine.

By the way, I haven't read through this whole thread, the previous debates and all the essays on the internet. Nor do I intend to. Hopefully it's okay for an outsider to come here and state an opinion

While I agree that SE haven't been as straight with us as they could have been, I'd speculate that this is because they don't want to alienate fans on either side. Of course that is pure speculation.

Having said that, I still think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of C/T.

I haven't seen any hard evidence that Cloud loved Aerith or even 'had feelings' for her beyond friendship. At the very least we know that Cloud had/has* feelings for Tifa, and that those feelings were a huge influence on his life.

On top of that, any occasions in game where Cloud had the chance to reciprocate Aeriths feelings, he was either a) oblivious (despite Aerith being pretty blunt) or b) indifferent - Cait Siths fortune telling provoked 0 response in him, not a head scratch, a nod, nothing. How does that make any narrative sense?

These examples were brought up shortly before this thread died and I haven't seen the C/A sides response. :/

So yeah, once again we have the same arguments that attempt to tear down C/T without supporting C/A beyond the flimsiest of claims.

And I've lost count of the number of times where we have pointed out that this thread is about canon and facts and not 'interpretations', yet we have nobody willing to engage the argument on those terms.



*depending on peoples viewpoint

 

[Flintlock]

While I agree that SE haven't been as straight with us as they could have been, I'd speculate that this is because they don't want to alienate fans on either side. Of course that is pure speculation.

If that was their thinking, I'm not sure I get it. Quistis had feelings for Squall in VIII, but you don't bump into too many people on the internet who are enraged by Squall's obvious, undeniable, canonical love for Rinoa. They could have just been clear about it, eliminating the need for this debate, but they weren't. And like I said, that's fine by me.

I like to draw a parallel with the ending of the film Inception.

Spoiler

When the screen goes black, it denies the audience the chance to see whether Cobb's totem, the spinning top, continues spinning or falls over, which means it's impossible to say whether he is back in reality at that stage or still in a dream world. A lot of people came out of that film disappointed that it didn't have a neat resolution, but I loved it. I thought it was fitting that a big budget Hollywood film which broke with convention in many ways had a less than conventional ending, and I was glad that it made me think even as I left the theatre. People can argue all they like about whether it was real or a dream, but the point is that it is meant to be ambiguous (and also irrelevant, as Cobb starts paying attention to his children rather than the top). Christopher Nolan, the director, has said as much.

I'm not sure I can draw the same conclusion about Squaresoft's intentions with anything like the same certainty, but it's a possibility, is it not?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, I may be a 'newb' when it comes to debating the Final Fantasy VII love triangle. And I may have even used "cannon" and "canon" interchangeably and incorrectly. But I played Final Fantasy VII in 1997, and I have always been a fan of the game and Clerith. Your condescending and belittling nature is dually noted, Ryushikaze. Nice to meet ya!

I wasn't even being condescending or belittling there! If I'm going to be noted for that, at least wait til I get into it!
Then again, considering you're citing essays from CxA later on, I wouldn't be surprised if a reputation precedes me.

The page from the 20th Anniversary Ultimania that is fueling this debate provides us with two scenes from Final Fantasy VII. Interestingly, Final Fantasy VII is the only Final Fantasy on the page that shows the protagonist with two love interests. This implies that Squaresoft recognizes the love Cloud has for both Tifa and Aerith. Remember, the debate revolves around who Cloud loves more.

No, the strawman of the debate revolves around who he loves more.
Also, the page describes four possible 'love interests' for Cloud, in that it mentions four people who can go on a date with them. Only one of those is mentioned by name, in a separate entry about when She and Cloud revealed mutual feelings of love for each under the stars.

Additionally, both of the scenes Squaresoft included for Final Fantasy VII in the Ultimania are also scenes that unfold a certain way depending on the decisions each individual player makes. The high and low affection, which determines how certain scenes unfold, is explained on page 232. Nowhere does Squaresoft say that the high affection Highwind scene is canon, they simply included that on a page that shows the main love interests of the Final Fantasy series. So to officially declare the love triangle debate over, when no official statement from Square has been made, is completely disingenuous and misleading (especially when Squaresoft made a point to differentiate between the low and high affection Highwind scenes on page 232, AND they included a picture of Cloud and Aerith together).

P232 declares the same thing that the FTOIL page does. It declares that Cloud and Tifa share their feelings for each other. It is in a sidebar that discusses possible variances in this scene, and even then, it doesn't discuss the Low version.
Further, if we WANT to go down this route, the impressive scenes section for FFVII has the high version as one of the four impressive scenes of the game.

But if one scene must be chosen for the compilation, Squaresoft has been very unclear which one is the canon one. In many ways, however, Advent Children suggests the low affection Highwind scene is the correct one. Cloud is shown living in Aerith's church and acting distant and cold towards. Also, very few if any real romantic scenes are shown between Cloud and Tifa, and it seems Cloud's mind always wanders to Aerith. This suggests, to me anyway, that Cloud and Tifa are great friend and share a love that is purely build around a friendship. I know that some would argue this, but come on. Cloud's living in Aerith's church for gods sake!

You... completely ignored the story behind why Cloud went to the church, information about how Cloud feels guilty with Tifa and the Kids and the family they made together because they make him happy, about how he's gone away because he got a fatal wasting disease. Hell, you completely ignored that Cloud wanted Forgiveness from Aerith, as he stated himself. Cloud, immediately after FF7, plans on starting a new life with Tifa by his side. For the better part of two years, Cloud and Tifa live together as a family taking care of Marlene and later Denzel, she acting as the mother for them, and he as the father (and let's not go into the 'But Barret' tangent. Cloud acting as father does not remove him as Marlene's father, and he wasn't there anyways). Cloud seeks out Aerith so he can cure his disease, and more importantly, the disease of the child he and Tifa have taken in to their home.
That's another thing. Cloud and Tifa are described as together, belonging together, having a future together.
Cloud and Aerith? Nada.
Zack and Aerith have more 'together' describing them post mortem than Cloud and Aerith do past her demise.

Anyway…I can't respond to all the other points yet. This is already taking a ton of my time as it is! I'm not use to debating on forums.

Time and notepad are your allies. Also facts and your own original words. Do not simply parrot Clerith.com talking points back to us, we grow tired of that VERY quickly.

Also…sorry to anyone who took offense to me claiming that the lifestream article deceptively left out page 232. I just find that article to be completely ridiculous to boldly claim the debate is over.

Why? Cloud and Tifa are featured on a page about romantic confessions with a blurb saying they confessed mutual feelings. That's a claim 'Cloud and Tifa hold romantic feelings for each other and have revealed them to each other' validated by Square. That makes the debate over.
Keep in mind, I know full well that the debate has not ended. But a debate doesn't have to end just because it's 'over' and decided. Creationists still try and fight against the ToE, as a real world example.

Square did not say the high affection Highwind scene is canon, nor did they claim Tifa and Cloud were the canon couple.

They didn't need to, and they didn't need to.
Because they told us Cloud and Tifa revealed mutual feelings for each other on a page where the subject is love. Must we wait for Sara and Ingus to be declared canon? Cecil and Rosa? Locke and Celes? They were treated the same as C/T were on the same page. Heck, Locke and Celes even had the same phrasing used, I think.

In fact, they included both Aerith and Tifa with Cloud on the page in question.

And Barret and Yuffie, as one of the four datable people, just as Aerith is. Do not ignore the text. Text informs the pictures, it is not there simply to take space.

The debate is far from over and I feel as though that Lifestream article has spread the false idea that Square officially said Cloti is canon.

It has not. There's no falsehood to spread, nor is a 'press release' required to solve this brouhaha, just as there was no need for one to solve the R=U nonsense that ran about the FFVIII fandom for several years.

In short, I think you have the wrong idea about what is required to determine something as 'true' or not, and I would not be surprised if you have that wrong idea specifically because of Clerith.com

Thanks, Sora.

I'm already feeling overwhelmed and swamped by all of you Cloti supporters! To be honest, I don't know how long I'll last because I've never been one to debate on forums. Plus, it takes an awful lot of time to construct responses.

People keep saying this, I keep telling them to save their responses into text files and work on them bit by bit. No one seems to listen.

Honestly, my knowledge of the entire Final Fantasy VII universe is very limited. I've only seen Advent Children and played Final Fantasy VII. As for the rest of the Final Fantasy VII compilation, I've only read about it online. But from as far back as I can remember, I've always thought Cloud and Aerith were the intended pair.

We have found the first problem. You are arguing from a position of incomplete information, jumping to a conclusion, and defending it still without the evidence.

However, this debate seems to be never-ending and both sides appear as though they'll never agree. Sadly, it appears as if the Cloti pairing is now universally accepted by most FFVII fans...which I don't think was ever the intention of Square. They purposely set the game up as a love triangle, and I honestly think Cloud has love for both Aerith and Tifa. I just personally feel as though his love for Aerith was stronger. From numerous points throughout FFVII, to seeing Cloud in Aerith's church in Advent Children, it has only confirmed to me Cloud's romantic love for Aerith, and his feelings of a loving friendship for Tifa.

Go into detail. Not 'numerous points,' actual scenes that indicate Cloud loves Aerith, period. That set his emotions for her apart from his emotions for anyone else, but also set them apart from anyone else's emotions for her.
Cloud crying at her death means little if Cloud both cries for his mom and Tifa also cries, for example.

Anyway...I look forward to reading all of your responses but I don't know how much longer I can last. Considering how long you guys have been debating this, and how much you all know about the compilation, I'm at a great disadvantage.

Try and believe me when I say that there is no snark intended in what I am about to say: You have no idea how great your disadvantage is.

The primary reason I decided to come and share my ideas is because it came as a great surprise to me when I started looking online to see that Cloiti was the more popular pairing. I guess I always felt more drawn and attached to Aerith. Never in a million years would I have predicted Cloti was more popular than Clerith! It still boggles my mind.

That's the thing. YOU are drawn to Aerith. But this is a matter of the story, not of who you or I or Bob McBobberton is drawn to.

I'm sure you have seen these websites before...but if you haven't, please take a look. The essays on these websties are far more thoroughly researched than anything I could produce:
http://www.cloudandaerith.com/
http://clerith.heliohost.org/Menu.htm

PS: I know some of you have responded to a few of these essays, but they really are well-written and researched. They might be worth a second look! Some of them have even been updated as of late.

And we have hit problem 2.
For the record, no, they are not well written, or well researched. And I have a personal issue at having a comprehensive rebuttal to at least one of them completely ignored by the person who wrote it, after she specifically told us to read it, so no, I will not be enraging myself today and reading the nonsense in those 'essays.'

lol no jk about it, Ryu is a sarcastic asshole. No flamin', because he admits and takes pride in it.

I will take offense at having my material be mislabeled. I hadn't even gotten started on the sarcasm yet! And the Asshole was barely warming up!

There's a heavy dose of sarcasm and aggressiveness here, you just have to find your own pace. Don't worry about pressure.

"For it shall crush you like an in-" wait, wrong speech.

Ehhh, I could say the same things about Aerith. We could put all of the interactions on Cloud and Tifa as simply friends/family on edge the same way we can attribute all the way he thinks about Aerith in the compilation as a symbol of his guilt and self depreciation. I don't buy it though.

Cloud has a strong connection with Aerith that I feel was diluted by guilt but not overcome by it. And just because Tifa and Cloud's interaction had a dynamic that could be attributed to platonic feelings, doesn't mean that's all their relationship was about- imo their relationship was always a complex, multifaced- and it IS firendship, but it's also romantic tension, it's also somewhat Tifa as a caretaker, and it's also a family wife-husband....y something or other.
As a way to run away from reality. He also lives and has a life and business with Tifa. Something that he wanted to do as mentioned by the the Case of Tifa novel. And more than likely moves back in once his baggage is gone.

He does move back in. That's official. Moreover, he officially belongs there. Not even joking. Cloud belongs with Tifa.

This is pretty much how I feel about the whole debate. Each side can make their arguments, and some may be more convincing than others, but neither should really claim to be gospel. The fact that the debate still rages fifteen years later is surely as good an indication as any that Cloud's feelings were unclear (I'm not taking any compilation stuff into consideration). That's why I don't understand how people can get so worked up about it. There simply isn't one clear-cut answer, and I think that's absolutely fine.

By the way, I haven't read through this whole thread, the previous debates and all the essays on the internet. Nor do I intend to. Hopefully it's okay for an outsider to come here and state an opinion

Well, if you are asking the question 'Does he love Either girl,' the answer is a lot more clear cut, since, well, we can point to him loving Tifa, and his 'most definitely be pleased' line from the lifestream sequence (There was a bit of a flub, that line got translated as merely 'probably' which means the same thing logically, but reads differently), but if the question is 'did he love one girl and not the other' then sure, the question's a bit murkier.

Anyways, Bank, you are incorrect, Tifa did reciprocate Cloud's childhood love for Tifa, they simply did not unveil their attraction to each other.

Also, Flint, Inception is both a bad and an excellent example, because the ending SEEMS ambiguous, but for several reasons, isn't ambiguous at all. Which is why it's a bad example for your point, but an excellent example for what I think the situation with VII is. People are so focused on the red herrings, they can't see some very obvious clues that are less obvious, but just as if not more important.