The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Real Cloud necessarily felt what Composite Cloud did for Aerith by the time he emerged -- just that some form of Cloud at some point in time most certainly felt something more than platonic friendship for her. Not necessarily in love, but more than just friends, and deeper than "I'd hit it."

I think that by the time Real Cloud gets his day in the sun, circumstances would have made his feelings for Aerith more complicated than that. I'm sure he was still fond of those things he remembered about her, but an ongoing, ever-developing attraction would be impossible for obvious reasons.
 
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Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
real!cloud knows what's up and tells the messed up cloud to talk to tifa about shit. he has to have been somewhat there for any sort of lasting bond with aerith to have been formed, even if he isn't at the surface
I don't see the problem here. That's exactly how I illustrated it in my example. Though obviouslt real!Cloud is nowhere near the surface of being the dominant actor, as Aerith pointed it out and the game does as well.

maybe it was just a poor choice of disorder on your part, but generally with did the personalities are completely separate from one another (tho some argue that some discussion happens between personalities and thats how different ones know the same things but others argue this just proves the whole thing is horseshit)
Sure. Why not? Yet it's obvious real!Cloud attained a form of contact with fake!Cloud through the omnious voices in his head.

there is essentially no reason for real!cloud to have acted on any romantic inclinations toward aerith by the point he comes around cause need i remind you, she is dead at this point. the most we get is a lot of fond memories and a desire to unfreeze her smile, which could be read as romantic. but as the story progresses, he realizes his feelings for tifa are mutual and goes for her.
By which point one has to inquire if real!Cloud ever felt any romantic desire towards Aerith, since the scenes where one can attain that, are of fake!Cloud.
 
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Real Cloud necessarily felt what Composite Cloud did for Aerith by the time he emerged -- just that some form of Cloud at some point in time most certainly felt something more than platonic friendship for her. Not necessarily in love, but more than just friends, and deeper than "I'd hit it."

I think that by the time Real Cloud gets his day in the sun, circumstances would have made his feelings for Aerith more complicated than that. I'm sure he was still fond of those things he remembered about her, but an ongoing, ever-developing attraction would be impossible for obvious reasons.
I can accept that. :) The whole situation is complicated, which makes it interesting to think about and discuss. I tend to think that once his personalities merged that his feeling likely became muddled, merging into something unique and, while he'll always care for Aerith, I'm not convinced Real!Cloud's feeling for Aerith are romantic.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
On the 'I, We' thing, I just saw it as Cloud not being used to being part of a group more than anything, since he's so used to being alone himself.

But then again, that gets into my whole 'Cloud and Aerith serve more narrative purpose as mirrors, with any and all romance mostly serving as a distraction to make the mirror less blatant' thing.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I can accept that. :) The whole situation is complicated, which makes it interesting to think about and discuss. I tend to think that once his personalities merged that his feeling likely became muddled, merging into something unique and, while he'll always care for Aerith, I'm not convinced Real!Cloud's feeling for Aerith are romantic.
and im not convinced that real cloud and messed up cloud are such entirely different entities that they have entirely different feelings, honestly
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
On the 'I, We' thing, I just saw it as Cloud not being used to being part of a group more than anything, since he's so used to being alone himself.

But then again, that gets into my whole 'Cloud and Aerith serve more narrative purpose as mirrors, with any and all romance mostly serving as a distraction to make the mirror less blatant' thing.
Would you agree or disagree about that type of line having a common narrative purpose?
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Would you agree or disagree about that type of line having a common narrative purpose?
I would state it has a few, depending on delivery of the line, which, sadly, we don't really have.

I will agree it could be a romantic thing, but it could also just be a social awkward thing, and the tone of the speech would help determine which it is.
 
Falling in love is different from "fell in love." It's ambiguous. I think a lot of people here who don't think that Cloud and Aerith have a two-way romantic relationship is open to the possibility that Cloud is in the process of falling in love. It's like an engine getting started but the tires got destroyed as soon as the gas is hit.

So Cloud was attracted to Aerith, he liked Aerith, admired her, falling for her perhaps, but then tragedy struck. Some believe he got there, some don't.

I'm saying that FakeCloud is capable of falling in love because he's experiencing reality, that love can be genuine and can even be carried in AC. FakeCloud is part of RealCloud now. But we need stronger evidence that Cloud was able to reach this romantic level with Aerith since the strongest emotion we get from RealCloud is guilt.

It's also a matter of standards, some of us feel here that Aerith's dead will have less emotional impact if the player does not see romance between the two while some can say that omitting romance won't really cheapen her death.

I'm really open for Clerith, it's just that I don't see enough proof of romantic love before and after Aerith's death, and by romantic love we have different standards of it. I think they are more than friends but less than lovers, they have immense potential, but to know the end result of their relationship if Aerith had lived and Cloud returned to his real self is a mystery.
 
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and im not convinced that real cloud and messed up cloud are such entirely different entities that they have entirely different feelings, honestly
Well, I doubt that I'll be able to convince anyone, but I will say, as I mentioned in my first post here, that the two personas appear to be able to think and to an extent act on their own (Limited in that respect because Real!Cloud isn't the dominate one, but you have the scene where Composite!Cloud is taking the Black Materia to Sephiroth and Real!Cloud tries to stop him- there are actually two Clouds in the scene presumably to represent the two versions of him and I just watched the scene again to be sure, he can also apparently speak during the scene.) They manage to have complete conversations in the comfort of Cloud's own head, in which Real!Cloud is capable of having information that Composite!Cloud doesn't.

There is some added complexity in that it's hard to know how much of Real!Cloud could be in Composite!Cloud and how much influence he has on Compsoite!Cloud (if any) when we don't hear from him, but they do seem to be distinctly separate personalities or entities to use your word from what I can see. Unless there is something that I'm missing which is totally possible and if there is then I'd love to hear it. :)
 
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Always late to all the parties. I blame my dead back and TERA.

I don't think Cloud wants to go on a date with Aeris.
He doesn't want to go on any dates, he gets dragged to all of them. Not that he is forced into them, he just doesn't care either way. Also, we all seem to be forgetting the circumstances under which the date "agreement" occurs. THE TURKS ARE THERE AND SOON AFTERWARD OPEN FIRE.

Aeris: "This violently? I thought they were kidnapping someone."

Maybe he's not a total dick, ya know?

Also, if this Cloud is interested in dating Aeris and Aeris is too....then how the fuck can he have no inkling that the girls want into his pants -- particularly Aeris?? If Cloud wants to date Aeris and Aeris promises to...then wtf? Can someone reconcile the ultimania and these thoughts on the date because I can't rn?

Also: he tries to ditch her moments later. What happened to his date payment yo, because he never lets us know of any intention to return to Aeris. He's all like, "gotta save Tifa from a hungry whorehouse".
but you don't have the read into the story that hard to understand what a crushing phase looks like
...Cloud was crushing on Aeris? This is news to me, because we KNOW what Cloud crushing looks like.
Which ways to respond to party members(mostly Aerith and Tifa)should be counted?
slum drunk :lol:
Anyway, just wanted to add a few things that seem to have slipped under (or seem to me, in any case).

1. Cloud did not just borrow Zack's "movements". What a gross oversimplification.
2 Jenova can make Cloud respond in certain ways based on the other's expectations/memories.

This happens when Cloud first sees Tifa and when Cloud laughs & jokes with Aeris. I'm not entirely convinced these first few moments of them (C/A) together should be taken as feelings of lurve, or even an interest to date her at that point.
 
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On the 'I, We' thing, I just saw it as Cloud not being used to being part of a group more than anything, since he's so used to being alone himself.

But then again, that gets into my whole 'Cloud and Aerith serve more narrative purpose as mirrors, with any and all romance mostly serving as a distraction to make the mirror less blatant' thing.

I still say by that time in the story Cloud excluding himself would seem really out of place.

"I'm all alone"

"But they're here for you right"

"WTF Cloud"
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I still say by that time in the story Cloud excluding himself would seem really out of place.

"I'm all alone"

"But they're here for you right"

"WTF Cloud"
but the original argument was 'he said i instead of we because he doesn't know how to socially connect with people'

so if he doesn't know how to socially connect with people why is he discussing this shit at all with aerith? if he's THAT socially awkward you'd think he'd just awkward turtle swim his way into space when she says she's alone
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Also, we all seem to be forgetting the circumstances under which the date "agreement" occurs. THE TURKS ARE THERE AND SOON AFTERWARD OPEN FIRE.

Aeris: "This violently? I thought they were kidnapping someone."

Maybe he's not a total dick, ya know?
No, he definitely is:

Reno: "Don't worry about me."

Aerith: "Say, Cloud. Have you ever been a bodyguard? You DO do everything, right?"

Cloud: "......Yeah, that's right."

Aerith: "Then, get me out of here. Take me home."

Cloud: "OK, I'll do it... but it'll cost you."
He's not a good samaritan by any stretch at this point in the story.

Also, if this Cloud is interested in dating Aeris and Aeris is too....then how the fuck can he have no inkling that the girls want into his pants -- particularly Aeris?? If Cloud wants to date Aeris and Aeris promises to...then wtf? Can someone reconcile the ultimania and these thoughts on the date because I can't rn?
He probably saw it in business-like terms. She wanted something (protection), he wanted something (she made an acceptable offer). Doesn't mean she would have wanted to date him otherwise.

But, then, I've made a trade for a woman's company before myself (and a drinking bet in another case), so maybe it makes sense to me for that reason.

Anyway, by the time the actual Gold Saucer date came along, they were actually friends and they'd been through enough that he wasn't so much of a dick, so it's doubtful he was still holding her to it. Certainly they'd all watched each other's backs plenty by then. In any sense of fairness, she'd repaid him.

Also: he tries to ditch her moments later. What happened to his date payment yo, because he never lets us know of any intention to return to Aeris. He's all like, "gotta save Tifa from a hungry whorehouse".
He leaves her behind because Elmyra asks him to. He intended to wait until the next day and let Aerith escort him to Sector 7. No point in making trouble for himself when the chick's mom is in the mix.

As for trying to leave her behind again after she shows him where Sector 7 is, she was going to leave at that point on her own anyway. She only stuck around because of the shenanigans with Tifa and Wall Market.

Maybe he'd have come back to get his payment at a later time (Zack certainly came and went as he pleased), maybe he wouldn't have. The exchange with Elmyra may have made him decide it wasn't worth it.

Point is, at the time of their agreement, he said it would cost her to get his help, she offered a date (I can't help but imagine expecting more than sharing snow cones from a girl in the slums who offers you a date in exchange for your professional protection), he accepted her offer. That seems incredibly straightforward to me.

Anyway, just wanted to add a few things that seem to have slipped under (or seem to me, in any case).

1. Cloud did not just borrow Zack's "movements". What a gross oversimplification.
2 Jenova can make Cloud respond in certain ways based on the other's expectations/memories.

This happens when Cloud first sees Tifa and when Cloud laughs & jokes with Aeris. I'm not entirely convinced these first few moments of them (C/A) together should be taken as feelings of lurve, or even an interest to date her at that point.
Why would JENOVA influence him to agree to a date with her?
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
It still seems that people are assuming attraction= love, or hell, even romance. You can find people attractive without being in love with them--or even still, without loving who you're with any less. Attraction is normal.

You can't profess that Cloud twu loves Tifa with any form of sincerity if you're claiming he was too fucked up to find Aerith attractive. Because, wut?

On a literary stand point, it wouldn't be much of a narrative red herring about Aerith if there was no evidence of attraction. Kitase wouldn't have said Cloud was torn between the two of them if he WASN'T at some point. FFS, guys, really? Has this thread become so anti-Clerith that any suggestion of it is met with stonewall resistance? Did Cloud love her? No. Did he want to see her petals? Yeah, probably. :awesome:
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Honestly, I'd attribute that to her ability of reading minds and memories, and to her copying abilities. Only Cloud's S-Cells are totally doing that subcounsciously.

Cloud reacted somewhat the way people would imagine him reacting and being, which is why he sorta created that personality for Tifa from her thoughts and memories and probably why he laughed with Aeris. That's my take on it, fake!Cloud has a strange combination of influences indeed, and we know Jenova/Sephiroth was one of them.
 
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Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
It still seems that people are assuming attraction= love, or hell, even romance. You can find people attractive without being in love with them--or even still, without loving who you're with any less. Attraction is normal.
i think a good chunk of the problem is people are assuming that it's being argued that cloud loves aerith when that is not what's been said for the past few pages
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I still say by that time in the story Cloud excluding himself would seem really out of place.

"I'm all alone"

"But they're here for you right"

"WTF Cloud"
but the original argument was 'he said i instead of we because he doesn't know how to socially connect with people'

so if he doesn't know how to socially connect with people why is he discussing this shit at all with aerith? if he's THAT socially awkward you'd think he'd just awkward turtle swim his way into space when she says she's alone
That's not my argument at all, for the record. I'm not saying Cloud doesn't know HOW to socially connect, I said he's not used to feeling like part of a group, so including the group isn't second nature at that point.

It still seems that people are assuming attraction= love, or hell, even romance. You can find people attractive without being in love with them--or even still, without loving who you're with any less. Attraction is normal.

You can't profess that Cloud twu loves Tifa with any form of sincerity if you're claiming he was too fucked up to find Aerith attractive. Because, wut?

On a literary stand point, it wouldn't be much of a narrative red herring about Aerith if there was no evidence of attraction. Kitase wouldn't have said Cloud was torn between the two of them if he WASN'T at some point. FFS, guys, really? Has this thread become so anti-Clerith that any suggestion of it is met with stonewall resistance? Did Cloud love her? No. Did he want to see her petals? Yeah, probably. :awesome:
I'm specifically discussing whether or not he took the date seriously or not, and whether certain lines are indicative of an increasing attraction.

Because I will not really argue against a heterosexual male being attracted to a healthy woman. I just know there's a difference between being attracted to and being romantically interested in a woman. I'm attracted to quite a lot of women I have no interest in pursuing.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Because I will not really argue against a heterosexual male being attracted to a healthy woman. I just know there's a difference between being attracted to and being romantically interested in a woman. I'm attracted to quite a lot of women I have no interest in pursuing.
This.

That's all I'm saying. Cloud was attracted to Aerith. End of.

Do I think he was awaiting date payment? No. Do I think he would have pursued something with her? No. Once the LS scene happens and Cloud finds himself, I think it's very clear with whom and where his emotional attachment resides. However, do I think Disc 1 Cloud was curious about/attracted to/protective of Aerith. Yes.

And I'm really confused by the absolute denial of it by some people. That's all.
 
No, he definitely is:



He's not a good samaritan by any stretch at this point in the story.



He probably saw it in business-like terms. She wanted something (protection), he wanted something (she made an acceptable offer). Doesn't mean she would have wanted to date him otherwise.

But, then, I've made a trade for a woman's company before myself (and a drinking bet in another case), so maybe it makes sense to me for that reason.

Anyway, by the time the actual Gold Saucer date came along, they were actually friends and they'd been through enough that he wasn't so much of a dick, so it's doubtful he was still holding her to it. Certainly they'd all watched each other's backs plenty by then. In any sense of fairness, she'd repaid him.



He leaves her behind because Elmyra asks him to. He intended to wait until the next day and let Aerith escort him to Sector 7. No point in making trouble for himself when the chick's mom is in the mix.

As for trying to leave her behind again after she shows him where Sector 7 is, she was going to leave at that point on her own anyway. She only stuck around because of the shenanigans with Tifa and Wall Market.

Maybe he'd have come back to get his payment at a later time (Zack certainly came and went as he pleased), maybe he wouldn't have. The exchange with Elmyra may have made him decide it wasn't worth it.

Point is, at the time of their agreement, he said it would cost her to get his help, she offered a date (I can't help but imagine expecting more than sharing snow cones from a girl in the slums who offers you a date in exchange for your professional protection), he accepted her offer. That seems incredibly straightforward to me.



Why would JENOVA influence him to agree to a date with her?

I'm sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on this entire post.

First you elevate the "date as payment" to something necessary for Cloud to help Aerith. When he never once takes the fucking offer seriously. I don't know what you call that hand waggle when it comes up. But I don't see that as "thus our agreement is made". And secondly you act as if Cloud was somehow thrilled to go home with Aerith and only her mother made him take off. And that he might have even gone back at a later time to extract that payment?

And as I am typing this I decided to watch that scene again. The first thing Cloud does is bring up Tifa. Then when Aerith says she will escort him to sector 7 he isn't exactly trilled about it.




Hey..... Cloud and Aerith are made for each other. Because when they are together they can only talk about other people.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
That's not my argument at all, for the record. I'm not saying Cloud doesn't know HOW to socially connect, I said he's not used to feeling like part of a group, so including the group isn't second nature at that point.
never said it was

but my post was in response to
Composite!Cloud isn't exactly the most sociable of people either and might not necessarily think to automatically include the others.
therefore implying cloud->too socially stupid to include other people->why did he include himself?->what is this?
 
never said it was

but my post was in response to


Composite!Cloud isn't exactly the most sociable of people either and might not necessarily think to automatically include the others.
therefore implying cloud->too socially stupid to include other people->why did he include himself?->what is this?
Just to clarify, having shakey social skills isn't the same as having none at all and I apologize if it came off that I thought he had none. He's not completely incapable, but why would he think first to include the others especially without including himself? Wouldn't thinking to offer himself as an example first make more sense since he's standing right there grasping for a way to help her and then he himself remembers that the others are with them and that mentioning them as well might make Aerith feel less alone so he changes the wording to include them as well. Is... that really so out there? Maybe it is and if so then I apologize. :(

Either way, is this that important a point?
 
Z

Zealkin

Guest
Jumping in the shark tank awhile~
As a motif for them, Tifa is “the childhood friend who’s been with you since nursery school”, and Aerith is “the girl who transfers school mid-term and quickly leaves for another school.” Since she doesn’t have many scenes, you’ve got to make it so that the transfer student has a big impact. That was what I thought.
Though this in know way dismisses that Cloud could have been attracted to Aerith(because who wouldn't be she's gorgeous)

It really makes me question the "promised date" and the "I'm we're here for you scenes, to me saying this kind of cheapens their value. I do believe that some of the scenes and even the Date mechanics can be explained through this. The more involved Aerith was with the player, optional interactions included, the more impact she had when she left us.

What she meant to Cloud was more of a flirty, fun-loving friend who died way too soon, than a lover. I say friend because there wasn't anything pointing towards Cloud reciprocating Aerith's feelings. Yes he's awkward but even during the Highwind scene he can awkwardly express how he feels about Tifa, and then completes it with something physical.
 
Anyway, by the time the actual Gold Saucer date came along, they were actually friends and they'd been through enough that he wasn't so much of a dick, so it's doubtful he was still holding her to it. Certainly they'd all watched each other's backs plenty by then. In any sense of fairness, she'd repaid him.
First, I'm not disputing they were friends by actual date-time. I don't believe I ever said otherwise.
Second, NO FUCK NO! So, according to you, Cloud (if not for the date payment) what, would have left Aeris at the mercy of the Turks, guys he calls murderers and assassins? Really? The date wasn't his motivator, dude. It's Aeris', but it's not Cloud's.

He leaves her behind because Elmyra asks him to. He intended to wait until the next day and let Aerith escort him to Sector 7. No point in making trouble for himself when the chick's mom is in the mix.
Aeris: "So, what are you going to do now?"
Cloud: "...Is Sector 7 far from here? I want to go to Tifa's bar."
--
Aeris: " I'll show youthe way"
Cloud : "You gotta be kidding. Why do you want to put yourself in danger
again?"

He says he's off to Tifa's, having completed what she asked him: to bring her home. He doesn't expect to see her again after this. He clearly intends to drop her off and go on alone. He doesn't take the date seriously. It is Aeris who insists because she wants to keep him as her bodyguard beyond his original duty: Getting her out of the church and back home, which is literally what she asked him to do. She would not have been half as insistent had she had any confidence in seeing him again.

I believe your reading does not take into account Aeris' determination and persistence to follow a stranger, even against his wishes, into totally dangerous territory. This is not some woman desperate for dick and I doubt she follows every guy she is attracted to around like that. It is his likeness to Zack that draws her and that's why she basically stalks the guy. She KNOWS she will never see him again.

And even after she shows him the way, he is all like "well, Aeris, thanks and all but I guess this is goodbye". And then he tells her to go home again (what? sans bodyguard?) after he sees Tifa, insisting to go on alone.

Come on.

Anyway, I'm not disputing Aeris being an attractive female or Cloud recognizing that, I'm just not buying that he actively wanted to pursue her & that the date payment is an indication of that.

I do believe that some of the scenes and even the Date mechanics can be explained through this. The more involved Aerith was with the player, optional interactions included, the more impact she had when she left us.
Absolutely. The point is to get involved in her quest to get Cloud. That's why she's pursuing Cloud as hard as she is. Contrast this with Tifa, who is waiting for Cloud to do the pursuing. Player choice has huge role when it comes to C/A romance and that's why you struggle to find moments or actions that are outright romantic outside player control. I firmly believe the intent was for the player to become involved in CREATING a love story and Aeris' flirty, fun-loving personality no doubt facilitated this.

Honestly, I'd attribute that to her ability of reading minds and memories, and to her copying abilities. Only Cloud's S-Cells are totally doing that subcounsciously.

Cloud reacted somewhat the way people would imagine him reacting and being, which is why he sorta created that personality for Tifa from her thoughts and memories and probably why he laughed with Aeris. .

Also, I wanted to add that Wolfmania got where I was going, even if I admit that my last paragraph may have been somewhat confusing/not elaborative. :D

/for once i'd like to get everything i want to say in one go, w/o editing forever.
 
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