The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Danseru-kun]

First thing, I don't like the rest of the forums being judged by this LTD thread. I don't mind people disliking TLS due to numerous reasons but I think this thread should not reflect the rest of the forums, nor it should be the image of the forums.

I remember what JayM said before about this TLS vs CA forums thingy.It's a difference of forum culture. I think Cleriths feel people are being rude and offensive to them with the way some members here talk.

People in this thread can be insensitive, frank, mean, sarcastic and use a dose of satiric humor like that of the Hitler video. I feel that if the Clerith people who were upset makes an equivalent Hitler video, I doubt people here would react the same way as them. Yeah, like what's happening here, people here can also be upset but they consider it less of a Cloti vs Clerith thing but rather it's more of a issue of facts and opinions.

It's also a matter of methodology. Some Cleriths feel frustrated that their method is "easily dismissed" without sufficient explanation. But it also stems from the difference of perspectives about the goal of this thread. Sometimes, some members will insist this kind of method of proof, that this is the topic and this should be the way it's done because the other method is fallacious.

Some feel that this isn't how things should be done and it's a matter of perspectives and all facets should be considered. They don't use the method the other debaters use but has their own way of trying to tell things. It becomes a mismatch since standards are different and the approach are different the debate sometimes can't have a clear clash. Or people fervently disagree on things even if they're not contradictory.

But since it does not adhere to the method set by the prominent debates in this thread, mainly the article writers of TLS and their supporters, their method are rejected and they think that TLS is close-minded and dismissive of other perspectives. They do their share of thinking but the way they are treated make them feel TLS deem them illogical.

It also has to do with being impersonal vs personal. I have observed that TLS debaters tend to be impersonal, therefore are frank and direct on their criticism, and the rejection of some (not all) Clerith methodology makes it more rude for Clerith debaters. Some Cleriths are hurt by this and the lack of sensitivity frustrates them whereas if they do the same to TLS debates, I doubt the reaction would be the same. Like I said, people here can also be upset but it will be handled by sarcasm and direct confrontation.

And along with this problem, it has something to do with forum hierarchy. I can see that the prominent debaters here and some moderators is strict with the certain methodology that proves Cloti but doesn't prove Clerith. And in CA forums its the same. Their prominent article writers have a certain methodology that will stand in their forums as much as TLS' method stands here.

I think the only thing that can solve this is a one on one debate or a team debate so that it's even, and a disclaimer that the debaters will not represent the entirety of their forums.

But then again, there were so much sins in this debate regarding the Japanese language, regarding transparency, honesty, and regarding courtesy from both sides it doesn't really matter who started it or who does it more.

So, No. Nothing can really solve this unless by some magic, Clerith debates embrace TLS Cloti methodology they don't accept and TLS debaters by some miracle also embrace the Clerith method they satirize.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The issue resulting in clashes can be summarized pretty simply: actual debate has standards that are adhered to here. That's really what it boils to.

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, that was me and Celes Chere/Tiff who made the Hitler video (I think Vendel had suggested someone should do so; I then wrote one, and Tiff did the video editing) using that famous Hitler clip from "Der Untergang" -- and, dammit, I still say it was funny.

That was almost three years ago now. Wow.

whose cock did you have to chew on this time to survive the great downfall purge of youtube

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Less a question of "whose?" and more a question of "how many?"

Actually, YouTube has stopped taking the vids down/restored ones they did. Pretty much everyone but Constantin Film agrees the parodies fall under Fair Use. Even the movie's director thought so.

 

[Splintered]

Eh, I think I'll amend my previous attitude a bit:

To be fair for newcomers, Ryu can be a rude asshole. I know this because he admits it, he's been called out on it, but he's also answered every debate that's been thrown at him. My problem with tumblr callouts on the article is that they seem to infer that everything they say is ignored so we could live in a happy cloud of ignorance: but every debate point has been answered and the reason the article still exists is because no one has convinced the author of the article.

Even Blankbeat, bless her soul, tried her best and kept on good behavior but wasn't exactly the most diplomatic in her first post

This page was deceptively omitted from the TLS article claiming Cloti is canon.
...
Omitting a page that disproves your THEORY is shady business

This is my issue, words like, TLS are full of bias assholes, they're shady, they omit information to lie to them; it's basically saying that we lie to everyone all the time and refuse to listen to anyone else. It's bullshit plain and simple.

I get it, it's hard to debate here. I've been on the receiving end- when I argued that Cloud and Tifa weren't sleeping together, when I stated I didn't believe in a canon couple, that Aerith loved Cloud beyond Zack, and that Cloud showed real romantic interest in Aerith. But I didn't call people mean when they debated against me, I just argued back.

As far as forum culture, I guess I'm just use to TLS style, even long before TLS. In my old forum, you could make a thread that said "Sasuke could curbstomp Naruto" and watch the rage flow. It's the difference between forcing respect, and letting people interact how they want to- stopping just short of personal attacks. And honestly, neither are better than the other, it's just different.

It's aggressive, sarcastic, it revels in it, and I don't see it really changing for anyone.

I have an issue with when people try to bring up something that looks likes a TLS versus CxA fight, and despite any frustrated ramblings, the rivalry isn't real. It's one, maybe two, members with grudges, and that's it. I don't know CxA, personally I have no issue with it- my impression is that they are closed off but are generally well behaved community that loves their pairing.

Ryu and the Pink Hell thing, I've long since tried figuring that out because there's a long history of years of bad blood and personal attacks, maybe from both sides. I'll be honest and say I'd be a lot more comfortable if Ryu stopped it, not only because it unnecessarily flamebaits but also it's lame as hell, and nothing is as offensive as an unfunny joke.

TLS LTD is intimidating, but it's open. The only problem is not they are treated differently, it's that there's a huge ratio against Cloti and Clerith debaters, and it's hard to debate one against a lot of people.

It's not nice, and I don't begrudge anyone who walks away annoyed or doesn't sign up because of the atmosphere. I just also don't have any respect for people who act the same way as TLS LTD (ie rude, name calling) but pretend they are better.

At least we are somewhat self aware. If only just a little.

And with that we should probably change the subject or something >___> to something that is an actual debate

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If I'm being honest, I don't care for the Pink jokes either. But having observed Ryu in action for almost ten years, I know where the man's frustrations come from, and I also know he's not likely to change his ways of referencing folk until they change the behavior that led to him applying the reference in the first place.

That said, he is at least self-aware enough about it all to be an admitted asshole when it comes to this matter. Even if he is a mite too proud of the fact at times.

Speaking of honesty, though, yes, as you pointed out, Splint, anyone stepping in to debate over here and beginning their arguments with accusations of lies, distortions and deliberate omissions is just going to piss somebody off. Usually, it's me.

As if the absurd notion that someone who went to school for years to get a degree in journalism would sacrifice their reputation for the sake of a fictional pairing weren't insult enough, when I myself translated and posted the very thing I've been accused of omitting, it just sets me right the fuck off.

Anyway, love and peace.

 

[Ryushikaze]

First thing, I don't like the rest of the forums being judged by this LTD thread. I don't mind people disliking TLS due to numerous reasons but I think this thread should not reflect the rest of the forums, nor it should be the image of the forums.

I remember what JayM said before about this TLS vs CA forums thingy.It's a difference of forum culture. I think Cleriths feel people are being rude and offensive to them with the way some members here talk.

People in this thread can be insensitive, frank, mean, sarcastic and use a dose of satiric humor like that of the Hitler video. I feel that if the Clerith people who were upset makes an equivalent Hitler video, I doubt people here would react the same way as them. Yeah, like what's happening here, people here can also be upset but they consider it less of a Cloti vs Clerith thing but rather it's more of a issue of facts and opinions.

There's also the fact that I, for one, bear their insults as a badge of pride. The 'Deus Admiral' part of my custom user title comes from me taking Clerith insults and making them mine.
I'm the Admiral. The admiral says what ships sail and which ships sink.

It's also a matter of methodology. Some Cleriths feel frustrated that their method is "easily dismissed" without sufficient explanation. But it also stems from the difference of perspectives about the goal of this thread. Sometimes, some members will insist this kind of method of proof, that this is the topic and this should be the way it's done because the other method is fallacious.

If this is to be a debate, it shall be conducted with at least the bare minimum of pretense to being a debate. Claims, Evidence, and Logical inference.

Some feel that this isn't how things should be done and it's a matter of perspectives and all facets should be considered. They don't use the method the other debaters use but has their own way of trying to tell things. It becomes a mismatch since standards are different and the approach are different the debate sometimes can't have a clear clash. Or people fervently disagree on things even if they're not contradictory.

While there is merit to examining a narrative from a multitude of distinct perspectives, I, personally, wholly reject the postmodernist thought that all perspectives are of equal validity. Standard narrative cues exist. They are easily recognized and handily tracked. They are damn near universally objective at this point. Cliches, tropes, narritive signposts, call them what you will, they do exist and they are as loud as neon to anyone who can watch.

My method takes three approaches. A purely textual and metatextual narrative approach- the story as a story. A purely in universe approach- a study of each character's words and actions and what those reflect. Lastly, a combination of the both, synthesized into a In universe and out of universe examination of the story as both a self contained world and as a narrative containing expressed explicit and implicit things.

But since it does not adhere to the method set by the prominent debates in this thread, mainly the article writers of TLS and their supporters, their method are rejected and they think that TLS is close-minded and dismissive of other perspectives. They do their share of thinking but the way they are treated make them feel TLS deem them illogical.

While there are several entirely illogical Clerith arguments, that doesn't mean their methods are illogical. I would argue that many of their premises are circular in nature, which makes their arguments fallacious, but not, technically speaking, illogical.

It also has to do with being impersonal vs personal. I have observed that TLS debaters tend to be impersonal, therefore are frank and direct on their criticism, and the rejection of some (not all) Clerith methodology makes it more rude for Clerith debaters.
Some Cleriths are hurt by this and the lack of sensitivity frustrates them whereas if they do the same to TLS debates, I doubt the reaction would be the same. Like I said, people here can also be upset but it will be handled by sarcasm and direct confrontation.

And along with this problem, it has something to do with forum hierarchy. I can see that the prominent debaters here and some moderators is strict with the certain methodology that proves Cloti but doesn't prove Clerith. And in CA forums its the same. Their prominent article writers have a certain methodology that will stand in their forums as much as TLS' method stands here.

The 'TLS method' such as it is really is just a standard parsimonious literary analysis. I'd use it to analyze Shakespeare, Rowling, Tolkien, and Butcher same as I would FF7. Or FF4. Or even Street Fighter 4, what little story it has.

I think the only thing that can solve this is a one on one debate or a team debate so that it's even, and a disclaimer that the debaters will not represent the entirety of their forums.

I think we've done that before. It has often gone badly.

But then again, there were so much sins in this debate regarding the Japanese language, regarding transparency, honesty, and regarding courtesy from both sides it doesn't really matter who started it or who does it more.

I promise only intellectual honesty and traditional honesty. I expect only the same in return.
I do not receive this. Instead I am met with quote mining, distortions, and other underhanded tactics. I refuse to be civil in the face of such.

So, No. Nothing can really solve this unless by some magic, Clerith debates embrace TLS Cloti methodology they don't accept and TLS debaters by some miracle also embrace the Clerith method they satirize.

I will not embrace Baraminology. I will not embrace birther bullshit. If I am expected to embrace a nonsensical method, I had better be given a damn good reason.

The issue resulting in clashes can be summarized pretty simply: actual debate has standards that are adhered to here. That's really what it boils to.

Hear Hear!

Eh, I think I'll amend my previous attitude a bit:

To be fair for newcomers, Ryu can be a rude asshole. I know this because he admits it, he's been called out on it, but he's also answered every debate that's been thrown at him.

As said above. All I promise, and all I expect, is honesty.

My problem with tumblr callouts on the article is that they seem to infer that everything they say is ignored so we could live in a happy cloud of ignorance: but every debate point has been answered and the reason the article still exists is because no one has convinced the author of the article.

Even Blankbeat, bless her soul, tried her best and kept on good behavior but wasn't exactly the most diplomatic in her first post


This is my issue, words like, TLS are full of bias assholes, they're shady, they omit information to lie to them; it's basically saying that we lie to everyone all the time and refuse to listen to anyone else. It's bullshit plain and simple.

I do not mind being called an asshole. But if someone wants to accuse me of being biased in such a way as to affect the conclusions I draw, they had better be ready to back that up.

I get it, it's hard to debate here. I've been on the receiving end- when I argued that Cloud and Tifa weren't sleeping together, when I stated I didn't believe in a canon couple, that Aerith loved Cloud beyond Zack, and that Cloud showed real romantic interest in Aerith. But I didn't call people mean when they debated against me, I just argued back.

We also gave you well reasoned arguments for most of those and a fair shake to explain yourself, if I recall.

As far as forum culture, I guess I'm just use to TLS style, even long before TLS. In my old forum, you could make a thread that said "Sasuke could curbstomp Naruto" and watch the rage flow. It's the difference between forcing respect, and letting people interact how they want to- stopping just short of personal attacks. And honestly, neither are better than the other, it's just different.

It's aggressive, sarcastic, it revels in it, and I don't see it really changing for anyone.

I have an issue with when people try to bring up something that looks likes a TLS versus CxA fight, and despite any frustrated ramblings, the rivalry isn't real. It's one, maybe two, members with grudges, and that's it. I don't know CxA, personally I have no issue with it- my impression is that they are closed off but are generally well behaved community that loves their pairing.

Ryu and the Pink Hell thing, I've long since tried figuring that out because there's a long history of years of bad blood and personal attacks, maybe from both sides. I'll be honest and say I'd be a lot more comfortable if Ryu stopped it, not only because it unnecessarily flamebaits but also it's lame as hell, and nothing is as offensive as an unfunny joke.

It's not a joke. It's to do with how their site used to be plastered with such a hellish shade of pink that it, and I do not exaggerate this, almost ruined the color for people who loved pink. Though they've changed the color, the name has stuck for me. That and pinkers is how I distinguish them from any Clerith who doesn't go to that site or recite their canned essays.

TLS LTD is intimidating, but it's open. The only problem is not they are treated differently, it's that there's a huge ratio against Cloti and Clerith debaters, and it's hard to debate one against a lot of people.

It's not nice, and I don't begrudge anyone who walks away annoyed or doesn't sign up because of the atmosphere. I just also don't have any respect for people who act the same way as TLS LTD (ie rude, name calling) but pretend they are better.

At least we are somewhat self aware. If only just a little.

And with that we should probably change the subject or something >___> to something that is an actual debate

Honestly, that's most of the reason I get annoyed with these people. They get mad at us for doing things which they also engage in and moreso than we do. It's hypocritical, and that's intellectually dishonest, and that cheeses me right the fuck off.

 

[Dashell]

EDIT
And Ryu Ninjas in there... lemme read what he said before I probably have to fix this

Ryu and the Pink Hell thing, I've long since tried figuring that out because there's a long history of years of bad blood and personal attacks, maybe from both sides. I'll be honest and say I'd be a lot more comfortable if Ryu stopped it, not only because it unnecessarily flamebaits but also it's lame as hell, and nothing is as offensive as an unfunny joke.

Word (no offence Ryu, I usually just skip over your rants these days)
EDIT
yeah after reading your post, I too understand why you get frustrated... we've all been there. I just am choosing to stay away from the really angry stuff these days

As if the absurd notion that someone who went to school for years to get a degree in journalism would sacrifice their reputation for the sake of a fictional pairing weren't insult enough, when I myself translated and posted the very thing I've been accused of omitting, it just sets me right the fuck off.

Oh admit it, you got a degree in journalism just you could say Cloti was canon and have everyone believe you

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hush, you! You'll ruin my plan!

 

[Morana]

^^
Because fictional pairings are just THAT important.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Y'know, anyone who thinks the lifestream is full of clerith bashers is assuming that Ryu, Vendel, and Mako are the only people on TLS.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

...how the fuck is Mako a motherfuckin clerith basher? Is the definition of a "clerith basher" someone who finds their bullshit smelly? Or just anyone who isn't convinced by pink lens flares and ribbons of fate?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hell, even I don't spend most of my time bashing Cleriths, and when I do, it's almost always pinkers.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I was gonna say, neither Ryu or Vendel really belong there either, at least regarding this thread. Neither is exactly the most polite about rebutting Clerith "proofz" or arguments, but they DO seriously think about them and give them an honest rebuttal. And that whether they are based on something reasonable or something outright batshit. If Mako, Ryu, and Vendel are all Clerith bashers then put me down too. Cause despite lacking their extensive history with the insanity of the LTD, despite being an inferior debater by the metric set here, I'm no more polite about calling a spade a spade than they are.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Mmmhmm.
Mako just stood out cause he barely even participates. I'm like, bitch what?

 

[Strangelove]

...how the fuck is Mako a motherfuckin clerith basher? Is the definition of a "clerith basher" someone who finds their bullshit smelly? Or just anyone who isn't convinced by pink lens flares and ribbons of fate?

mako bullied me into putting 'beloved' in lifestream white

i wanted to put the more accurate phrase of 'lover who the woman bangs like a lonely housewife with a pool boy'

he's a massive clerith basher

 

[Splintered]

i wanted to put the more accurate phrase of 'lover who the woman bangs like a lonely housewife with a pool boy'

Finally, the accurate translation of koibito is revealed.

 

[Edley]

I have to stop reading this at work, my monitor is covered in water from my spit-take on Hito's line of the day right there.

Is there actual active debate on this? I've only seen a few vague mentions of tumblr posts, but I can only imagine its the same typical ass-hattery I've come to read over the last 15 years.

 

[Dashell]

Y'know, anyone who thinks the lifestream is full of clerith bashers is assuming that Ryu, Vendel, and Mako are the only people on TLS.

Oh come on guys, this was a joke... and a damn funny one
Just replace Mako with ... OWD or Tres or something... them be huge Clerith bashers.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Reacting in an overly serious way to jokes made in this thread is tradition!

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Splintered is the Cleriths!? Yaay puts up small tent, makes camp and drags Splintered off

Also Wolfwood! *glomp glomp glomp* (Peppy POWAH! SO3 go!) (if you're the same Wolfwood I know, if you're not sorry for all the glomping!)

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Why are you guys treating clerith bashing like it's a bad thing?
There's nothing wrong with mocking the idiocy of those who think a pairing that isn't canon is canon.

 

[Dashell]

Okay that time I'm not sure if srs

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

You're , Quex?
Well I am serious, yet I'm not, if that makes sense. I'm whatever you want me to be.

 

[Splintered]

Splintered is the Cleriths!? Yaay puts up small tent, makes camp and drags Splintered off

Also Wolfwood! *glomp glomp glomp* (Peppy POWAH! SO3 go!) (if you're the same Wolfwood I know, if you're not sorry for all the glomping!)

Nope, I am firmly Cloti with ZackxAerith as my favorite all time videogame couple.

But I think the game establishes a romantic nature to relationship between Cloud and Aerith in the game, even if it doesn't coalesce into an actual romance and Cloud's feelings are more ambiguous. And that relationship doesn't threaten the Cloud-Tifa relationship, it's just another complicated piece of Cloud.

I dunno, but I always interpreted Cloud Aerith less of "it could have been great" and "a terrible doomed romance" and more of a "we have no idea and that's what makes it tragic." They could have been the greatest couple of all time. They could have fallen straight on their faces and Cloud and Tifa would have realized they were perfect for each other. Aerith could have matured into a fully aware Ancient and curbstomped Sephiroth and led the planet to a golden age.

We don't know because before the relationship could fully mature, it was destroyed, and not by some wonderful love martyr scene, because life is brutal and cruel and it took away the option.

IMO, Square put that question out there, are Cloud and Aerith in love, and then purposefully not answered it because "being in love" or "not being in love" wasn't the point, it was that some things are taken away before they can be answered.