The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

Plus, with minor edits, all the dates CAN occur, and Cloud's so not a player in ANY of them.

And Tres, it's not that I have cameras in your house, though the cameras are there. Just not all the time

[/paranoia]

 

[Dashell]

Ah, my younger years.

As opposed to the old lady you are now

Someone will really make that argument, won't they?

I think it's already come up... but also mentioned was how the date isn't in Cloud's memorial so

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here's the full text captioning the date screenshot on the Memories of FFVII page that you asked for, Que:

----
お相手は誰？一夜きりの秘密のデート
——ゴールドソーサーにて

Who is the other person? The evening of the secret date
——At the Gold Saucer
----

Yeah, nothing special. All of these Memories of [Game] things are short like that and not particularly descriptive. They're really just saying, "Hey, we bet you remember this!"

i might translate them for all three games (along with some matching screenshots) for a frontpage post, though. I think that would be fun.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

So they did the same thing in the memories page as they did in the FTOIL page?(y'know, where they show a picture of the Aerith date but don't reference a specific date in the caption)

And why the Aerith date? I personally think the Barret "date" is the most memorable. Who could forget how Barret hilariously came to the conclusion that Cloud had the hots for Marlene?

And I honestly think SE will always leave it ambiguous as to which date is canon(I like to think that all of them are). The same with whether or not messed up Cloud retained Cloud's romantic feelings for Tifa(I like to think that he did, given that Cloud's heart called out to Tifa's in the lifestream, no matter which Highwind scene you get, and that was before he became real Cloud again, though barely. And in any case, you are able to imply Cloud has a romantic interest in Tifa, by choosing certain lines of dialogue. Like "Next to you, who wouldn't?" for example. One thing we do know for sure is that Illusory Cloud was in love with Tifa's boobies), or whether or not Cloud had romantics feelings for Aerith(I assume he didn't. I do think he found her to be attractive though, but I also think most of the party members especially Tifa found her attractive as well, cause let's face it, Aerith is an attractive lady, though not as attractive as Tifa, or Tifa's boobies. In the end whether or not one finds another attractive has little to do with whether or not one has romantic interest in that person. But Aerith and Tifa were certainly attracted to each other (and Tifa's boobies), and were ttly in luv wit ech uther az wel. Though, like with Tifa, it is possible for the player to make Cloud imply a romantic interest in Aerith by choosing certain lines of dialogue. "Let's hope so." being an example).

And by the way, it is possible for at LEAST all four Gondola rides to be canon, so don't say it isn't possible. And we all know that Aerith and Tifa(as well as her boobies) went on the Gondola together at some point during that night.

And for the record, isn't Tifa's date included in Cloud's profile in one of the Ultimanias or something like that?(the U20, iirc)

Oh, and also, Tifa's boobies and Aerith and Tifa's secret love for each other.

 

[Dashell]

Tres, you biased translator you, I found a mistake in your translations:

幼いころのクラウドは、同年代の者たちから孤立し、自分は特別だと思いこもうとする、ひねくれた子どもだった。そんな彼にとって大切だったのがティファ——淡く幼い恋心が、 精神世界にて明かされる。

"As a young child, Cloud was rebellious and isolated from those around his age, so he would try to convince himself that he was special. As such, Tifa was important to him. A slight young love is revealed in the mental world."

What do you have to say for yourself mister

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Gracious, I hath shamed myself beyond redemption for this copy-paste error of truly negligible proportions. Exile is the only recourse that remains!

Thanks for catching that.


So, I was thinking about the exchange Splintered and I had last night concerning the new Ultimania's treatment of scenes with variability, and it occurs to me that an argument that the Highwind scene's outcome cannot be determined due to the book's approximately equivalent presentation of all the dates carries even more holes than just the fact that only one version of the Highwind scene is brought up.

There is also that, by nature of the argument (that argument being: "Because all the dates were spoken of as though they occurred, despite that seemingly not being possible, no scene with variability can be assumed as canon due solely to placement in the book's analysis"), we would have to call into question a number of Yuffie and Vincent's scenes, due both to their recruitment being optional and due to certain scenes of significance involving them being likewise, even if they have been recruited (e.g. getting Yuffie to join is undeniably canon, but what about the Wutai sidequest?).

There's also one of Sephiroth's Memorial Scenes that would be taken to task. The meeting with him in the Shinra Mansion's library (where the Reunion is first mentioned) is a completely optional scene. Do we then doubt its validity as well?

It's probably the only argument Cloti-deniers will have to fall back upon, but it's really a very weak measure that won't hold up to scrutiny.

Really, the date is the only scene with variability that receives ongoing duplicity in its treatment. The Memories of FFVII page even brings up the variability element involved ("Who is the other person?"). At this point, one really has to wonder if we aren't supposed to take them all as equally valid.

At any rate, we would assume the emotions and characteristics involved in each to be in play regardless (e.g. Aerith knows Cloud isn't as he seems), so why would we not assume that a comment about the Highwind scene that says "Cloud and Tifa have been holding romantic feelings for each for many years" isn't true? Especially when that scene receives nothing of the duplicity given to the dates, and when the "have been holding [feelings]" comment was also in two quotes about the Lifestream sequence (which doesn't have any variability)?

 

[Danseru-kun]

An anonymous person messaged me in tumblr and I hath replied:

Cloud held "favor" for Tifa when they were children, and Tifa held "favor" for Cloud when they were adults. Sadly, they never held favor for each other at the same time -- at least not the way I played the game. I go the LA HW scene, and the compilation suggests to me that Tifa and Cloud are a family of friends making the best out of a very difficult situation. Cloud's heart appears to still rest with Aerith, which matches perfectly with what he says at the end of FFVII.
by Anonymous

First of all, you are free to interpret FFVII as differently as you want, but “canon” is what the creators intend and state. The quote simple says they “have been holding favor for each other for many years.”
“have been” is present perfect progressive and it has been defined as

A verb construction (made up of has/have + been + a present participle) that emphasizes the ongoing nature of an action that began in the past and continues in the present.
Examples:
61) a. He has been working with our company.
(61) b. He has worked with our company.
Sentence (61a), with the present perfect progressive, still has the sense of the work continuing to the present; however, in (61b), with the present perfect, the work occurred at some time or times in the past.”
(Ron Cowan, The Teacher’s Grammar of English: A Course Book and Reference Guide. Cambridge Univ. Press, 2008)
source: http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/presentperfectprogressive.htm
another source:http://www.gingersoftware.com/grammarbook/verbs/the-present-perfect-progressive-tense/
​

Cloud and Tifa’s love for each other began at the past and continues to the present. Also, the LAHW scene has never been described in a way that feelings are exchanged. It was called “apathetic” and feel free to find any quote saying feelings are exchanged in that version. Official quotes, not interpretation.

Cloud and Tifa’s profiles in the 10th Anniversary AU says that they “communicated their feelings” regardless of what you get in the game. In the same way, Tifa’s Memorial Scenes describe that at a “fateful night” there was a flood of feelings and it was special. Contradictory to apathetic.

Lastly, Cloud can still love Aerith regardless of the HAHW scene being canon. It’s something that cannot be cancelled or invalidated just because Cloud and Tifa have feelings for each other. Cloud setting Tifa aside is not needed for him to truly love Aerith.

Again, you’re personal interpretation of the story is yours, you’re free to reject canon if you want and I have no right to force you to change what you perceive. But many people like canon, and such, the recent information reveals canon.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

One thing that bugs me is how people can even think Cloud and Aerith could even possibly be a canon couple to begin with, it doesn't even matter whether or not they have feelings for each other, at no point during the game do they hook up, therefore they are never an actual couple, and could not possibly be a canon couple.

 

[I Am Not Me]

One thing that bugs me is how people can even think Cloud and Aerith could even possibly be a canon couple to begin with, it doesn't even matter whether or not they have feelings for each other, at no point during the game do they hook up, therefore they are never an actual couple, and could not possibly be a canon couple.

I think I said this very same thing a year or two ago in the form of a huge paragraph detailing how Cloud and Aerith could not have been a couple at any point in the game.

Arguing for their feelings is fine but they can't argue for the canon couple thing, unlike we can for Cloti, because they never got the chance to actually become one. It's a "love that can never be", as their beloved commercial says.

 

[Dashell]

Honestly the only counter arguments I've seen so far are "Favor =/= love" and that the Lifestream one is just referring to his (and I quote) dim crush. Nothing about optionality has even come up.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, I'm glad to hear that. What this boils down to, what no amount of finagling will get around -- in addition to "koui"/"favors" being a euphemism for love, and having been used at length to describe other FF couples who are in love -- is this:

The book plainly states that Cloud and Tifa have had romantic feelings toward one another for many years, and that they express these feelings to one another. None of this is predicated on certain conditions being met by the player. No ambiguity is present by discussing an alternate scene with contradictory components. It just is.

Until they can rewrite reality, they're stuck in the same one as the rest of us.

 

[Danseru-kun]

A birdie told me that the other camp might have their own translations. Well let's just see about that.

Dunno, I feel that this Ultimania is severely lacking in the Clerith romance department. The dates didn't even talk about romantic feelings and Cloud's grief over her death is no dispute. (But of course, they will use the grief as proof of romantic love.) And then probably the Cait Sith prediction will be glorified to huge proportions and will be used a proof that SE deems them as the only confirmed compatible couple.

Eitherway, the counterarguments I still see is that it's just a dim crush and nothing more, and that Nomura (was it) has no idea about Cloud and Tifa's relationship (from more than 5 years ago btw)

I predict that this will be used against me one day:

The favor DOES NOT mean that the love is equal, Cloud's crush on Tifa is DIM as confirmed before

The flood of feelings is that they will both battle Sephiroth the next day, NOT because they favor each other. There is NO evidence that the feelings are romantic and it's only your OPINION that they are

The feelings for each other is that they were alone and now TOGETHER they will face Sephiroth and they are true FRIENDS even if they die the next day

 

[Strangelove]

A birdie told me that the other camp might have their own translations.

oh my god yes yes yes these are always brilliant

i have spiced rum and free time, i am totally ready for this

yes, bring it on

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

If grief=proof of romantic love, then that means everyone in the party romantically loved Aerith; Cloud romantically loved Zack; Cecil, Yang, and Cid Pollendina romantically loved Tellah; Bartz, Lenna, Faris, and (squick!)Krile romantically loved Galuf; etc. While grief is not really proof of romantic love, it can be used as proof they loved the dead person(though not always, some people will grieve over dead people they didn't even know, but generally you grieve over loved ones), but using it as proof they loved them romantically is ridiculous and even squicky if that the person grieving over the dead person was the dead person's biological family member, like in the aforementioned case of Galuf and Krile in FFV, or with Anna and Tellah in FFIV, or Tifa's dad and Tifa in FFVII. etc.

 

[Dashell]

oh my god yes yes yes these are always brilliant

i have spiced rum and free time, i am totally ready for this

yes, bring it on

"Cloud and Tifa have been holding tickets for one another. Before the final battle, they put them to the test."


idk sorry that was kind of silly...

 

[Danseru-kun]

Okay somebody now messaged me this:

i don't think the translations you've provided are correct. :| Everybody knows you're a cloti, and i think you made this "friend" up. can you show me any other people who have translated the lines youre "friend" has the same way? i don't think so

Anyway, I just told the fella that if he has issues, he should debate with Tres, Hito and Quex.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Tres, you DO exist right? Wow it'd be a mindfuck if it turned out Danseru made you up

 

[Danseru-kun]

What if I'm Tres, Quex and Hito all along?

 

[Strangelove]

i think after being basically called incompetent over this shit before i have some right to say that anyone who gets 'tickets' from テキトー should step the fuck back and study harder

that was just really really bad

Okay somebody now messaged me this:



Anyway, I just told the fella that if he has issues, he should debate with Tres, Hito and Quex.

the classic 'i don't think your friends are real (but anyone who agrees with me is totally real y'all)' argument

i would discuss it more but i haven't had my wacdonald's today

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You should swing by there sometime soon. The McBullshit is back for a limited time.

EDIT: Can I also just say that accusations of bias in translation are the most immature aspect of the LTD? It's not like the words don't have particular meanings. A line of Japanese text isn't a Rorschach inkblot.

 

[Strangelove]

also, love the thing where people say they think a translation is wrong but don't provide any reasoning for it beyond character attacks because you don't like the right pairing. no examples of what part they think is wrong, just blanket accusation of bias and you're done

love it, darling

so fierce

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You should swing by there sometime soon. The McBullshit is back for a limited time.

I considered a WacDonald's joke, but I decided to leave it to folks who have more right to it via seniority in the LTD Thank you hito for not disappointing.

EDIT: Can I also just say that accusations of bias in translation are the most immature aspect of the LTD? It's not like the words don't have particular meanings. A line of Japanese text isn't a Rorschach inkblot.

And yet, much like a Rorschach blot they can be useful in detecting insanity

 

[Ryushikaze]

also, love the thing where people say they think a translation is wrong but don't provide any reasoning for it beyond character attacks because you don't like the right pairing. no examples of what part they think is wrong, just blanket accusation of bias and you're done

love it, darling

so fierce

Well, when you've literally got NOTHING, no knowledge of the language, no evidence, no logic, and nowhere to run, you have to use whatever you've got, and all they've got is smears.

 

[Octo]

Old Wacdonald had a forum... E I E I O...

And on that forum he had some resentment....

Come on help me out here it's 3am -__-

 

[Dashell]

Just made my last post you know where... man Hito I know what you went through now... that really hurts. doesn't it?.. I hope I didn't overdo it. But whatever, if I may quote a song:

Pick a part a perfect plan and alter all you know
What's done is done and forever will be




But seriously, accusing me of butchering Japanese? How immature... the worst part is knowing she's going to get away with it...

FML



EDIT
BTW Hito, what's your opinion on the "awakening of love" quote or w/e?