The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

so uh

how about that... Cloud and Tifa holding favors for one another?

Like, he helps her move, she blows him? Those kind of favors?

 

[Dashell]

Like, he helps her move, she blows him? Those kind of favors?

No but oddly enough the favor they hold can LEAD to those kind of favors.

 

[Dashell]

So Tres and I were looking at something and:

淡く幼い恋心が

Is it possible to read this differently since it it's 淡く and not 淡い?... doesn't that make it an adverb?... wouldn't be be describing an action?... perhaps a young love awakening?

Lightly, a young love awakens or something?

On the other hand it can also just mean "and" or "also"... which is what I'm assuming... as for "fleeting" I did notice, that with 淡く, Rikiachan does suggest "fleeting" but not with 淡い... that's interesting. (I'm not suggesting it's fleeting BTW, I'm just wondering why writing it one way would incorporate a new meaning like that)

Any thoughts on either of these from our more experienced Japanese people?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As far as I know, that exchange has not been given a full official explanation. I'll have to check the Ultimania Omega, though. I think it may have said something about it. I'll get back to you.

I looked into this. Que had done so as well more than two years ago, apparently, but I had forgotten.

Anyway, this is my translation of the quote (from pg. 27 of the UO):

----
After settling things with Sephiroth, Tifa attempts to escape with Cloud from the crumbling hole at the Great Northern Cave's extreme depths. Getting something of a hunch as to understanding the Promised Land's meaning, he thinks he can meet someone ... In response, she smiles and says "Yeah, let's go meet her." The person they're talking about meeting is, of course, Aerith. As for the Promised Land ...

セフィロスとの決着をつけたのち、くずれつつある大空洞の最深部の穴からクラウドとふたりで脱出をはかるティファ。"約束の地"の意味がわかったような気がする、そこで会えると思う……と言うクラウドに向かって、彼女は微笑み「会いに行こう」と語る。会いに行く相手は、もちろんエアリス。そして"約束の地"……。
----

It doesn't really explain the part you were wondering about, though, Licorice (the hunch Cloud gets).

(I'm not suggesting it's fleeting BTW, I'm just wondering why writing it one way would incorporate a new meaning like that)

I think I might actually know this. It could be because it's ascribing action to "faint" or "dim" -- in other words, it becomes an act of being "faint" or "dim."

However, as I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure in this case it's meant to be read more as "also" because what comes right after is an adjective.

 

[Strangelove]

for it to be used as an adverb, there would have to be a verb. 恋心 is solely a noun (unlike nouns that can be verbs like 移動 or 確&#35469. in the sentence here, the only verb is 明かされる, i think? for one thing, it is a long ways away from the verb here, and second it would be fleetingly revealed.

i will look it up because i am interested now for a more authoritative answer, but it is what tres said, a means of joining two adjectives. it feels fancier/more literary than the standard way (which would be 淡くて幼&#12356.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Wow I have a lot to catch up on/thank

Yeah I always thought the hand was Aeris/Aerith because of the music (and other feels! ) and because of Cloud's words immediately after "A answer from the planet ... the Promised Land ... I think I can meet her there" but it's nice to know there's something written about it in an Ultimania as well (I think that and iirc the blurb in the FF7AC Reunion Files about the hand reach scene in AC being a tribute to the one in FF7 confirms it) , thanks Tres

Spoiler

I don't think there's anything written about it in this new Ultimania is there, it's just shown/picced on the Memories of FFVII page and I heard/saw briefly in a vid some place also shown on the concepts/story boards pages(I don't think anything's written there either though?) but yeah


I have more stuff I want to add to this later but for now I just want to say -Threesome!

 

[Jiro]

I just played through the scenes with Tifa and Cloud in the Lifestream and it's pretty clear that Cloud harboured feelings for Tifa. I'd say that any combination of that childhood infatuation, the fact she saved his life/mental state and the fact that they were a part of a team that saved the world means that Cloud and Tifa have some sort of relationship going on. I'd add some more detail but I'm worried I'll get stuck here trying to explain myself forever

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can I in all seriousness ask a question? Forgive me if I'm being really stupid, but isn't this picture meant to show Tifa reaching down to Cloud?

I saw something in tumblr just now which strongly suggested that the hand is, or is intended to be seen as, Aerith's. In all the times I have played this game, that idea never crossed my mind. I just assumed the hand was Tifa's. Have I been missing something obvious?

Well, they do in ACC.

On the other hand (nyuk nyuk), if it's Tifa, why isn't she wearing her gloves, like she is in the very next scene?
Which leads me to conclude that the hand must belong to... Cloud's mom.

Seriously, I can see that I was wrong. I just didn't look closely enough before. Obviously it's intended to be Aerith, firstly because of the music, and secondly because they reference the gesture in ACC when Aeris reaches down to him out of the bubble of bad bahamut breath - except that on that second occasion she is wearing her bangles.

What I think the creators might have been going for was for the hand to be vauge- it is just described as the hand in the light in official mentions of it- but with retroactive hints that it was Aerith's hand, but specifically, Aerith's hand leading Cloud back to his own body and Tifa, especially given Tifa's hand is in the exact same angle and outstretched position.

This would be an excellent callback to when Aerith desperately wanted to contact Cloud in Maiden, but couldn't, and had to let Tifa do it because she was the only one who could, with Tifa desperately trying to stir Cloud back from the lifestream, and Aerith stepping in because she's the only one who can.
That doesn't make Benny's writing any less 'runny egg' purple prose and still leaves it of questionable status, but it's a nice bookend.

I'm wondering at what point Clouds feelings supposedly 'faded'. I mean I think he still had feelings for Tifa when he went back to Nibelheim, so much so that he was ashamed to show his face to her having not made it into SOLDIER. Then he spends the next 5 years in a tube/riddled with Jenova and its only in the Lifestream that he truly gets his groove back.

Maybe I'm missing something I dunno.

OBVIOUSLY, they faded the exact instance a flower girl in pink appeared.

Oh and to all the translators here, your efforts are very much appreciated. You guys have enhanced my enjoyment of 16 year old game, just as Shademp has with all his delving. So much more important than the LTD. I'm just really sorry people would seek to insult and discredit you and TLS.

It's because we- the site we, I know I do a lot less translation than anyone else- are so often the bearers of bad news. They're still in the denial stages of grief.

Thanks, robotwarui. Good points.

Since we're on the topic, I have another question. Is there any agreement among the fandom as to the meaning of the lines Cloud and Tifa exchange while they're hanging off the crumbling rock in the crater, namely:

Cloud: I think I know where I can meet her
Tifa: Yeah, let's go meet her.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, beyond a vague sense that Cloud is now reconciled to Aerith's death and believes that there is some way for them all to be reunited, either literally or figuratively. Is this supposed to mean that he will actually meet with Aerith herself, or is it something more metaphorical like, "I know that I can find her spirit in the new hope for a better future that we all now share" sort of thing?

Forgive me if this has all been thrashed out before. I wasn't a fan then and I missed it.

IIRC, In addition to what Tres posted, it's also something of a 'We might not get out of here alive. But death isn't the end. We can go meet old friends in the afterlife' explanation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

IIRC, In addition to what Tres posted, it's also something of a 'We might not get out of here alive. But death isn't the end. We can go meet old friends in the afterlife' explanation.

That makes sense... but I kind of didn't want it to mean that, because it seems a rather trite conclusion after everything that has come before. Not to mention inconsistent, since no consciousness survives in their afterlife except those of certain Cetra, who only achieve continued awareness through a tremendous effort of will.

I think what I want it to mean is that we can find the ones we love inside our own hearts, because they have had an effect on us and helped to form us. Cloud's love for Aerith and his anger and guilt at her death helped give him the strength he needed to fight Sephiroth (obviously, Tifa and all the others helped too) and to literally and figuratively get out of his hole. Personally, I would like our "Promised Lands" to be inside ourselves: they are what we make them.

Also, if they can meet Aerith in the afterlife, and Tifa is saying, "Yes, let's go meet her", isn't Tifa saying, Yes, let's die? Or maybe Tifa's saying, let's accept whatever comes next?

 

[Ryushikaze]

That makes sense... but I kind of didn't want it to mean that, because it seems a rather trite conclusion after everything that has come before. Not to mention inconsistent, since no consciousness survives in their afterlife except those of certain Cetra, who only achieve continued awareness through a tremendous effort of will.

I think what I want it to mean is that we can find the ones we love inside our own hearts, because they have had an effect on us and helped to form us. Cloud's love for Aerith and his anger and guilt at her death helped give him the strength he needed to fight Sephiroth (obviously, Tifa and all the others helped too) and to literally and figuratively get out of his hole. Personally, I would like our "Promised Lands" to be inside ourselves: they are what we make them.

Also, if they can meet Aerith in the afterlife, and Tifa is saying, "Yes, let's go meet her", isn't Tifa saying, Yes, let's die? Or maybe Tifa's saying, let's accept whatever comes next?

Well, remember, it's still up in the air whether Holy will kill everyone or not. So, it's 'even if we die, we'll go meet Aerith and everyone else together.' It's a positive outlook on what was already a fairly fatalistic circumstance.

And largely, 'promised lands' do seem to be inside folks, given how it's described in extrauniversal material. But 'the lifestream is the promised land' was an idea established earlier, it's just that it was the promised land for a set of people.

Wouldn't be the first time Cloud said something technically incorrect in game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Concerning the earlier discussion about Aerith's hand in the ending --

I looked at the storyboards, and Cloud was originally going to say "Aerith?" after "Lifestream" as her hand came into view:

http://imgur.com/WL5ES.jpg

It also looks like the dialogue was going to be slightly different as Cloud and Tifa hung from the ledge. I'm out to eat right now, so I don't have time to work out the shitty handwriting at the moment. If someone wants to take a crack at it in the meantime:

http://imgur.com/DKkdL.jpg
http://imgur.com/RPOyA.jpg

 

[Ryushikaze]

Just had a look, and it looks to be mostly the same as the final game, but I'd need to take a look at the game to be sure.

 

[Strangelove]

i see completely different. some of the picture is blurred but if i'm seeing this right:

ク「帰るぞ、ティファ…」
テ「え？」
ク「俺達も帰ってから　やることがあった」
ク「まだ…　あの山の向こうを見てない」
テ「うん…　帰ろう」

Cloud: We're going home/let's go home, Tifa.
Tifa: Huh?
C: There's something we've got to do too when we get back.
C: We haven't seen what's beyond that mountain yet.
T: Right... let's go back.

beyond the mountain made me think of mt. nibel. maybe it's something to do with Tifa going into the mountains as a child because ghosts were supposed to cross them?

or something completely different idk

that was pretty cool, thanks for sharing that, tres

man this ultimania looks interesting more and more. damn you amazon reviewers for making me think less of it

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That is pretty awesome. I'm going to take a closer look at more of these storyboards.

 

[Ryushikaze]

i see completely different. some of the picture is blurred but if i'm seeing this right:

ク「帰るぞ、ティファ…」
テ「え？」
ク「俺達も帰ってから　やることがあった」
ク「まだ…　あの山の向こうを見てない」
テ「うん…　帰ろう」

Cloud: We're going home/let's go home, Tifa.
Tifa: Huh?
C: There's something we've got to do too when we get back.
C: We haven't seen what's beyond that mountain yet.
T: Right... let's go back.

beyond the mountain made me think of mt. nibel. maybe it's something to do with Tifa going into the mountains as a child because ghosts were supposed to cross them?

or something completely different idk

that was pretty cool, thanks for sharing that, tres

man this ultimania looks interesting more and more. damn you amazon reviewers for making me think less of it

Well, that's what I get for trying to do things at a glance sideways while running a DnD game. But yeah, 'going beyond the mountain' is definitely evocative of Mt. Nibel and Tifa trying to see her mom. So, still about going to see the dead after the end, just in a different sense, I guess.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Okay, Quex requested to have my friend translate a line but Cleriths won't be happy with it so I won't release anywhere else.

Spoiler

”I’m looki(n)g for you. I want to...meet you.”
She was attracted by Cloud because he looked like her first love, Zaks.
But as spending time together, she noticed that his real personality was hidden at the bottom of his heart.
She told significant words to let him to recognize that.

 

[eleamaya]

And then it widens my Zerith googles, always.
No love confession declared for Clerith here though I still love their date interpretation.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, Quex requested to have my friend translate a line but Cleriths won't be happy with it so I won't release anywhere else.

Spoiler

Tell her super duper thanks

Also that thing about Mt Nibel is fricken adorable. I wish they had kept that line. I wonder why they changed it besides wanting Tifa to get rejected

and at last confirmation on whose hand it is... Tifa's mom

 

[Shadowfox]

Is there any dialogue between C and T about seeing what's beyond the mountain, anything that happened earlier on in the game?

I dunno, it seems like a very specific thing for it to be suddenly brought up near the end of the game.

 

[Dashell]

Is there any dialogue between C and T about seeing what's beyond the mountain, anything that happened earlier on in the game?

I dunno, it seems like a very specific thing for it to be suddenly brought up near the end of the game.

Which is probably why they changed it
But it still seems like a sweet sentiment to me.

 

[Strangelove]

perhaps in some of the other early dialogues there was more made of the mountain

 

[Lex]

Is there any dialogue between C and T about seeing what's beyond the mountain, anything that happened earlier on in the game?

I dunno, it seems like a very specific thing for it to be suddenly brought up near the end of the game.

Yes, there is.

In the Lifestream flashback, Tifa says something along the lines of "Where's momma? Did she go beyond the mountain?" referring to Mt.Nibel (after her mother's death). She then attempts to go there.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Okay here's Risa's translation:

In his youth, Cloud was a perverse child, who isolated himself from people of the same generation and tended to convince that he was special.
For him like that, something important was Tifa---faint young love to her is found in his inner world.

LOL fleeting and immature. Nice try thesaurus buddy

 

[Dashell]

I'm writing big essay on why it's not "fleeting" or "immature" and why Tres' translation was actually fine. I mean the simple fact that a certain someone insisted that the word being left out was awaku and not awai.. yeah that pretty much means they don't know much about what they're talking about. As stated above, if it was awaku , then it'd actually an adverb, but in this case, it's written as awaku which means "awai and." So ... yeah, nice try there.

I plan to post it on tumblr when it's done, (So Danseru, don't reblog yet) Here it is so far:



----------------------------

I've decided to post this just to get my thoughts on the table. Danseru, if you could please reblog this so your fellow Cloti friends and, anyone else who might be stalking your blog can also see it, that'd be great.

So apparently people are "butchering Japanese" because of these translations:

幼いころのクラウドは、同年代の者たちから孤立し、自分は特別だと思いこもうとする、ひねくれた子どもだった。そんな彼にとって大切だったのがティファ——淡く幼い恋心が、 精神世界にて明かされる。

Translation #1:
When Cloud was a young child, he was isolated from those around his age, and so he tries convincing himself that he must be special. However, Tifa was still important to him —— this childhood awakening of love is revealed in the spirit world.

Translatino #2
As a young child, Cloud was rebellious and isolated from those around his age, so he would try to convince himself that he was special. As such, Tifa was important to him. A slight, young love is revealed in the mental world.

Let's talk about translation number 1. It does appear that a mistake was made as this line "ひねくれた子どもだった" was looked over. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes. This line is simply refering to Cloud being rebellious and was corrected in the second translation. However the part certain people are taking issue with is this line:

淡く幼い恋心が

This was translated into "this childhood awakening of love"

A few people... or rather a certain someone has insisted a word was left out here. After all, doesn't 淡い mean dim/faint and possibly even fleeting?... first off, no, no it does not mean fleeting. Why doesn't it mean fleeting? Because fleeting is something that is short lived. Whether you want to say Cloud's love for Tifa was "dim" or "a mere crush," canon tells us these feelings lasted for years. He had them long before he went to join SOLDIER, and he had them years later when he returned to Nibelheim. If he had them for years, they obviously weren't "fleeting".

Looking up the word in an actual Japanese Dictionary gives us further insight into the meaning:

http://kotobank.jp/word/淡い

１ 色や味などが際立たず、薄い。 (lacking in color, flavor, etc, thin)
２ 形や光などがぼんやりしている。かすかである。(a shape or light that is indistinct. To be dim.
３ 執着や関心が少なくてあっさりしている。ほのかである (little attachments or concerns that are dealt with quickly/easily. To be faint)
４ 軽薄である。軽々しい。(To be frivolous. Indiscreet)

The third definition is probably why the Japanese to English dictionaries will suggest "fleeting" The text I translated into "quickly/easily" is あっさり. It means quickly, easily or readily. This meaning would imply that what Cloud had for Tifa was something that came and went quickly and easily. This is obviously not the case. Even if you argue pro Clerith, Cloud had feelings for Tifa for a long time and they were not dealt with quickly or easily. The "fleeting" definition simply does not fit.

If we take all the meanings together, we basically get something that is faint, weak, or dim. So why does the translation say "this childhood awakening of love", and nothing about a dim or weak feeling? Well let's back up a bit here. It should be pointed out that the word we're talking about is actually 淡い and is an adjective. Normally when an adjective ends in く instead of い it becomes an adverb. This, however, isn't the case here. Adding く is actually a way of saying "and also." So we have 淡く meaning "faint and also"

The one idea that all definitions of 淡い have in common, is that it's something that is lacking. (Could be lacking in color, lacking in potency, lacking in light. But it's lacking.)

So let's look at the second word 幼い. 幼い means young or immature. The word immature can be a bit misleading because of the usual negative connotations that come along with it. It should be pointed out that this is not talking about the negative immature that would be associated with someone acting immature and calling someone else a poopy head. Think of it as more along the lines of something that has not fully grown and is in the stages of infancy.

So what do we have here? A love that is lacking and in the stages of infancy.

Next we have 恋心 which can be translated two ways. One of which is "One's love" and the other is "awakening of love." So this translator used the "awakening of love" definition, right? Well not exactly.

As I said, we have a love that is lacking and in the stages of infancy.

If a love is both these things, doesn't it stand to reason

A. That a love that is young, would be faint?
B. The love has just begun, thus just awakened?

So a young love would be faint, and if the love is young, that means it's just awakened. And a love that has just awakened is a young love and also faint because a faint love is young and one that's just awakened and young because it's just awakened and therefore faint...

It's incredibly redundant to use all these words which are basically saying the exact same thing.


-----------------

longer than I expected XD
But yeah that's the gist of it so far... any comments?



EDIT

Cloud’s crush for Tifa is “fleeting” and “immature”

“The True Wish Revealed: When Cloud was very young, he had no friends from others around his age, so he tried to believe himself special, he was an alienated child. Such as, when regarding him Tifa was important—-the* FLEETING AND ALSO IMMATURE LOVE was divulged in the spirit world.” —FF7 25th AU”

—

The feelings Cloud used to have for Tifa has officially been described as “fleeting” and “immature“—

How can Cloud love Tifa still if his crush (which is the very foundation of his supposed love) is said to be fleeting and immature? For his love to be described as fleeting that means it’s dimming or dying out, which means his crush did not continue— which means Cloud has no romantic feelings for her by the time the lifestream scene takes place.

I’d also like to mention that there is a quote like this for Zerith as well, Nomura called their love “juvenile” “platonic” and a “puppy love”. One should also remember that Zerith has officially been debunked by Square enix’s latest novel titled “Case of Lifestream: white—the book that defines Cloud as Aerith’s koibito.

I think this clearly explains everything about the LTD…

Dear lord I'm embarrassed FOR her.
put down the thesaurus Cali, you aren’t fooling anyone.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Someone please tell Cali that the only person she's convincing, and even then just barely, is herself.

Also, Case of Lifestream is NOT novel, is not its own book, and is NOT the latest work of fiction for FF7 released.
Congratulations Cali, you have managed the difficult Fractal Wrongness.