The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

I ventured in and read. You are a trooper, Que.

 

[Splintered]

Oh man, haha, isn't it hilarious when people personally attack translators with no evidence back it up? Oh wait, it's not, it's actually one of my biggest fucking pet peeves and has been across fandoms and over the years. And I find it really fucking skeevy that I've had this rant multiple times in the FFVII LTD debate.

I don't know if anyone from there is going to read this, but I'll post it anyway, I find it extraordinarily despicable the way that this fandom treats its translators just because they don't like the way you translate LTD convos- especially translators that have worked for neutral Final Fantasy translations over the years and never get second guessed anywhere else. Not to mention that the process of translating is actually fairly open, with recommendations and people openly critiquing each others work. And knowing that it's really fucking hard to keep dedicated translators over the years- that some fandoms don't really get the opportunity.

Of course, it's not to say translators are exempt from criticism. But this isn't fucking criticism, it's a circlejerk of anons who would rather just bitch in each others general direction rather than actually flag down the first translator and have a conversation about them, especially since the actual fucking translator is pretty easy to get into contact with. I've seen what critique looks like of other people's translations, both in this thread and in other fandoms.

How low would your level of personal awareness of irony must a person have to not realize that cries about how disingenuous the LTD translations are without an actual argument is actually really fucking disingenuous.

Man, normally I'm all for being nice to people across the fandom and sites, I like to think I'm a pretty friendly person, or maybe I give myself a lot of credit....but if there was ever a time for vile sarcasm, now would be it, just to counter all the absolute bullshit spewing assholes who want to stomp their feet and whine the credibility away for people who have worked hard for this fandom for years.

Maybe this would be easier for me to actually swallow if the instances of this, the incident with koibito, or the time this happened in the Naruto fandom with the databooks, that when it came out that their translations were actually spot on, not one person came out of the fucking woodwork to say "Hey, sorry about all the crap I made you go through. And even if the translations didn't turn out completely true (which I think they did) it was obvious you weren't the malicious evil dooer that I made you out to be and you really did translate to the best of your ability"

But they don't, they don't even take the ten godamned minutes out of their shipping consumed lives to actually talk to the people doing the translations in a reasonable manner. No, we'd rather just talk bad about them around our circle of impressionable friends.

The sooner fandom grows up and gets away from this absolute fuckery of a translator blaming trend, the better.

I normally keep fandom fights out of my tumblr, but I actually considered ranting on d-kun's anon ask, because christ do these things really get under my skin.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Anybody who attacked translators because it doesn't fit one's fanon has never experienced being a fandom without translators. FFVII is lucky is has so much dedicated and competent translators.

My other favorite fandom, Guilty Gear, has five short stories and one novel untranslated for a couple of years now. The other translators becomes either busy with other series and the main translator years ago quit because the series canonized a ship he/she doesn't like (you may snicker now) and because of the direction the story took.

Anyway, there's someone I'm talking to who rejects the Ultimanias because he thinks it's not a primary material unlike FFVII and Dismantled (he's a very nice fella and a neutral) and here's my reply.

I can understand why you would view it in a historical perspective, but let me just say I view it in a artistic perspective. You see, as someone who’s working on my own universe, and writing a story for myself that I plan to publish to the future, I understand how you would change your mind about certain parts of your story.

And you have every right to. I am the author of my work. I say what is canon. I would be annoyed if I made a story, then revealed some new facts after 5 years about the characters, only it to be rejected because it’s been so long since.

Yes, it’s true that some things may not yet been conceived in an early development like Crisis Core and Advent Children but its like that. As a fanfic writer, I sometimes deviate from my plan… adding and adding what I wanted. Making sequels and all.

Because it’s my fanfic.

Last Order gets positive reactions and because of it Zack became popular that it led to Crisis Core. The reason why it’s decanonized is because it’s outright contradictory by making Tifa awake in the reactor, making the whole Lifestream sequence nonsensical. It’s not about fan reaction.

As an author myself, I have every right to decide what is canon in my work, not the reader. Say someone else write about my characters like what Dismantled did, I liked it and published it, then I changed my mind I wanted my OWN input so I didn’t outright decanonize the other work released earlier. But then because one thing is earlier it’s more reliable?

The bottomline is, a story is not history because stories have an author and histories don’t.

I also have the right to decide the direction of my series depending on fan reaction. For example, right now my plan is to kill off certain characters or make them suffer terrible fates, but depending, if ever, on my readers reactions, I might change that.

Say, if my books sell, I will be inspired to make sequels even if they weren’t part of the original plan. SE might be milking us, but they own the work and create the work.

I also posted this (I'm not referring to the earlier person in here)

I just thought about it… I know some reject the Ultimanias because they’re just “for money” anyway.
But then…
FFVII was made for money too.
It’s all profit baby, even the original game we all love.
​

 

[Strangelove]

thanking your post for being a beautiful person, spintered

I am not going to make a big ranty post now

oh wait, yes I am

Of course, it's not to say translators are exempt from criticism.

this is what I don't like about being called biased (that and it really isn't true). because I give people here criticism. a whole bunch of times. because I think that ultimately, criticism helps everyone. it helps the translators to possibly identify errors or misunderstandings they hold, and it helps fans reading the translations by hopefully providing the best and most accurate translations possible. I don't criticise because I don't like people or don't like their pairing. if I wanted cloti to be seen as canon, I wouldn't disagree with people here. I would tear down all arguments against it, and go on and on about how right anything remotely romantic for cloti is.

but I don't, because I care about things being honest and correct more than pairings. I just say whatever I think is correct. it's not meant to be insulting (unless people are being jackasses about it which is relatively often). I think that is the best way to go about things for the continued learning and development of whoever's involved, because it is a continual process. and by saying what you think doesn't look right, and looking into it and sharing the findings, people can improve and better their knowledge and abilities for the future. it's all happy and good.

but I've come to realise that some people don't care about that. they care about their delicate shipper fee-fees and their team winning. so if something agrees with the party's platform it is swallowed up without a single question, and if it doesn't then well, there's obviously something fishy going on, right? surely there's no way you might have been mistaken. there's no way ANYONE EVER could translate some text about a fucking video game coupling and not let their shipper desires get in the way, right. (because everyone cares about shipping super big time you guys)

though apparently not everyone takes what sounds pleasant and pleasing to their shippy ears at face value and instead disbelieve any translations from fans. I hate the attitude that you can't trust any amateur translation. that's really insulting to people, that you can't be right unless you're on a company payroll. people's skills aren't dependant on whether they have a job that specifically uses those skills. you don't have to be a professional musician to be able to play the guitar well. you don't have to be a working artist to create a great picture. but suddenly you have to be a working translator to know what you're talking about? bullshit

'tls translation' annoys me because 1) it's also used to refer to someone's comments in the forum and that's their opinion, if it's on the front page then you could call it the 'tls translation'. 2) but it's still the work of one person and not every translator who has contributed to this site, who shouldn't be judged based on the actions of others. 3) it's lazy shorthand to say that you will never accept it because OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE ALL BIASED CLOTIS AND WILL LIE FOR THEIR SHIP I HAVE THE FORTUNE TELLING TICKETS TO PROOOOOOVE IIIIIIIIT. it's insulting. and twice as much so when it's directed at people whose translations have in the past been accepted without doubt when it suited people.

the ltd has literally killed any interest I might have ever had in shipping ffvii anything because of attitudes like this. and I was never that interested to start with, but now I just hate it. I hate how everything related to it is picked apart piece by piece until it fits what people want to believe. seeing 'engraved in his mind' constantly dissected makes me groan. it's a horrible feelings to sit there and think not about whether the word you've picked is right, but if you're going to have to spend the next several years seeing people nitpick the choices you made. (I chose 'engraved in his mind' because I thought it sounded more poetic and I like to make the titles and subheadings a bit fancy. also fun Japanese fact, 'kokoro' can refer to a wider range of things such as the mind that 'heart' in English doesn't. it doesn't have to mean anything romantic every time.)

double points when you look at the English definition of a word from a translation and use that as the basis of your arguments, regardless as to whether or not that fits with the Japanese word.

I get it, though. not everyone knows Japanese, not everyone has the time or motivation to learn another language. but people can get oddly offended and defensive if you tell them the simple truth that they don't know what they're talking about then. would you take it as a personal slight if someone said you were wrong about some aspect of advanced physics, because you've never studied it? you shouldn't, because it's probably true. chiming in with 'but the English definition says...' is pointless if that definition doesn't match the Japanese one (as is the case with 'favour'). if you don't have the knowledge of what's being talked about, why is it such a big deal to step back and let people who do know what they're on about (to whatever degree that may be) discuss it? butting in with 'but that's not what it says in ENGLISH!!!' just gets in the way. but some people seem to take this reality badly.


as for my view on this quote:

淡く幼い恋心

恋心 is just love, 'awakening' isn't part of the word itself and usually stuff like that would be shown with the addition of another word. and since it's a noun, which don't have tenses, it can't be in present tense in and of itself. you would need to look at the rest of the sentence for that.

淡く is basically the same as ほのか so everything that applied there can go here, and I don't have any comments on 幼い beyond childish/immature. I don't see 'fleeting' (I would have said 儚い for that), I see it not yet grown into something substantial or advanced yet.

so the way I see it is that it's basically the same as the ほのか に好意を寄せる (or was it 想いを寄せ&#12427 quote. and in a sense, if not literally what the Japanese text says, you could say it's the 'awakening of love' in that it's something that's not really reached a concrete or definite point but the early stirrings of love.



translating isn't always about replacing each original word for another, sometimes you can take the meaning and reword it and it's still fine. there's nothing wrong with that, because that is what translating should be about imho. not slavishly being fixated on getting every word exactly as it appears in the original into the target language. you might be accurate and technically correct, but the goal of a good translation should be invisibility in my view. you shouldn't read it and it feel like a translation. and if that means not using exactly the same structure and wording of the original text then so be it. as long as you've got the meaning conveyed. rigidly sticking to the original wording can lead to some godawful translations.

Anyway, there's someone I'm talking to who rejects the Ultimanias because he thinks it's not a primary material unlike FFVII and Dismantled

why is dismantled given a free pass but not ultimanias? is this solely ffvii's because they came later, or all of them?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I love you, hito. I hate to see you get this frustrated over such disrespectful bullshit, but I love what you said.

so the way I see it is that it's basically the same as the ほのか に好意を寄せる (or was it 想いを寄せ&#12427 quote. and in a sense, if not literally what the Japanese text says, you could say it's the 'awakening of love' in that it's something that's not really reached a concrete or definite point but the early stirrings of love.

That's why I went with that wording ("awakening of love"), and didn't provide a word-to-word translation for every single word (apparently I've been accused of leaving 淡く out, despite my post with the translation of that line talking at length about the word). It wasn't because of the presence alone of 恋心 (which I understand can mean "awakening of love"), but because it being part of a construction involving 淡く indicates that this is what it's talking about. The stirrings of a new love.

With 幼い ("childish" or "immature") there, and the fact that it's referring to when Cloud was a child, it's not a stretch to see how that became "childhood awakening of love."

Yet a huge deal is being made over this rather irrelevant line.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Can I in all seriousness ask a question? Forgive me if I'm being really stupid, but isn't this picture meant to show Tifa reaching down to Cloud?

I saw something in tumblr just now which strongly suggested that the hand is, or is intended to be seen as, Aerith's. In all the times I have played this game, that idea never crossed my mind. I just assumed the hand was Tifa's. Have I been missing something obvious?

 

[Zealkin]

Wasn't it supposed to be Aerith's with her theme playing in the background and everything? I thought it was and then it TWANSITIONS and Cloud realizes he is in danger and is actually reaching out to Tifa.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If it's Arrith's/Aeris', why isn't she wearing her bangles?

 

[Vendel]

Can I in all seriousness ask a question? Forgive me if I'm being really stupid, but isn't this picture meant to show Tifa reaching down to Cloud?

I saw something in tumblr just now which strongly suggested that the hand is, or is intended to be seen as, Aerith's. In all the times I have played this game, that idea never crossed my mind. I just assumed the hand was Tifa's. Have I been missing something obvious?

Oh, not only is it Aerith. Cloud knows it's Aerith. And it's the most romantic scene in the game. Just ask anybody.

That along with Cloud meeting Aerith in the flower fields at the end of AC. And that the 3 second scene in the KH credits.

 

[Zealkin]

If it's Arrith's/Aeris', why isn't she wearing her bangles?

I just assumed it was her with the music playing, maybe they forgot to add them in, it's not the first time that's happened in terms of design.

 

[Flintlock]

If it's Arrith's/Aeris', why isn't she wearing her bangles?

Do people wear bangles in the afterlife?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, they do in ACC.

On the other hand (nyuk nyuk), if it's Tifa, why isn't she wearing her gloves, like she is in the very next scene?
Which leads me to conclude that the hand must belong to... Cloud's mom.

Seriously, I can see that I was wrong. I just didn't look closely enough before. Obviously it's intended to be Aerith, firstly because of the music, and secondly because they reference the gesture in ACC when Aeris reaches down to him out of the bubble of bad bahamut breath - except that on that second occasion she is wearing her bangles.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Considering in FFVII proper, Sephiroth's gloves can mysteriously appear and disappear several times in the same scene, I wouldn't read too much into missing bangles

 

[Edley]

I'm really confused, Cloud and Tifa confirmed their feelings for each other matched under the Highwind, but Lifestream!Cloud had faded/fleeting/distressed/young/pale/underdeveloped feelings about Tifa so therefore said sequence proves he never loved her? Is that what we're going with?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Apparently they faded, but came back in time for him to have still loved her for many years.

According to someone whose questionable grasp of Japanese is second only to their questionable use of English.

 

[Strangelove]

Apparently they faded, but came back in time for him to have still loved her for many years.

is this real life

 

[Fangu]

Hi there thread, I haven't posted in you forever, but

translating isn't always about replacing each original word for another, sometimes you can take the meaning and reword it and it's still fine. there's nothing wrong with that, because that is what translating should be about imho. not slavishly being fixated on getting every word exactly as it appears in the original into the target language. you might be accurate and technically correct, but the goal of a good translation should be invisibility in my view. you shouldn't read it and it feel like a translation. and if that means not using exactly the same structure and wording of the original text then so be it. as long as you've got the meaning conveyed. rigidly sticking to the original wording can lead to some godawful translations.

This is brilliantly put, and a key point to any translation I've ever done.

I think it can be hard for people who only speak 1 language / only speak one and have briefly touched upon another to understand, because when they start learning a second language, they start with the direct translations to learn the basic structure. 'Bord' is 'table'. 'Gå' is 'walk'. Which for a lot of things makes sense, because things like tables is presented in a lot of cultires. A table is a plate with four leges, usually used for the purpose of eating, sometimes just for putting things on. Walking is another word that can't be confused. It has one meaning.

But then you have words that can have several meanings in both languages, and they only overlap a bit, in a few contexts. Or you need several words to describe something in one language that you in another language only need one. A direct translation might be impossible. This goes especially for more 'advanced' words, words that reveals something about the culture of the people who speaks it, and people who only knows how to say 'I'd like a Coke please' never get to the point when they realize how most words in a language don't really translate directly.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What you say is so true, Fangu, and you have reached a level of expertise in English that I have never achieved in any other language.

When I started learning Japanese I realised that, by comparison, French is just a dialect of English (or, more strictly, vice versa).

 

[Octo]

I'm wondering at what point Clouds feelings supposedly 'faded'. I mean I think he still had feelings for Tifa when he went back to Nibelheim, so much so that he was ashamed to show his face to her having not made it into SOLDIER. Then he spends the next 5 years in a tube/riddled with Jenova and its only in the Lifestream that he truly gets his groove back.

Maybe I'm missing something I dunno.

Oh and to all the translators here, your efforts are very much appreciated. You guys have enhanced my enjoyment of 16 year old game, just as Shademp has with all his delving. So much more important than the LTD. I'm just really sorry people would seek to insult and discredit you and TLS.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Its sad, really. The LTD should be over just one more thing to enjoy about a game/series we all enjoyed greatly. Something for fans of FFVII to argue about in a good natured way, enjoying themselves all along. Its funny how infrequently that happens. And how much more often it devolves into people slinging shit at the people they disagree with and calling good, intelligent people biased for their work. Even if said person could give less than a shit about the LTD.

 

[supergumbo]

Hey everybody, I just want to give my thanks for all these translations. You guys are doing an awesome job. Don't let these wacko shippers ruin your day or your credibility, it's their problem and their loss. Seriously, this is a great service to the true FFVII fans. I know me and my friends appreciate all this info.

 

[robotwarui]

Can I in all seriousness ask a question? Forgive me if I'm being really stupid, but isn't this picture meant to show Tifa reaching down to Cloud?

I saw something in tumblr just now which strongly suggested that the hand is, or is intended to be seen as, Aerith's. In all the times I have played this game, that idea never crossed my mind. I just assumed the hand was Tifa's. Have I been missing something obvious?

Whether it's actually Aerith's hand or Tifa's hand, Cloud at least thinks it's Aerith's because we hear her theme.

My perception of this part actually has a lot to do with what the MUSIC says about it. (song/track "World Crisis")

It starts with the reaching-hand with Aerith's theme, and when the note turned sour, he must have been disappointed but almost immediately he realized the danger he and Tifa were in,

That much seems obvious,

But after that, if you notice where the music goes from there... Tifa's theme comes in, then the main (Cloud's?) theme, intertwining 3 TIMES coming to a climax drum build-up to a cymbal CRASH into Cloud's theme with big loud brass.

So, only after having beat the game, and paying attention to the music by itself, I read it as more of a Cloti ending than what I'd thought before.

from what the soundtrack adds to that scene,
I read:

--- As with Aerith, Cloud's relationship with Tifa is important enough to have her theme be part of the musical narrative with Aerith's and Cloud's themes
---Tifa was an answer (that Cloud maybe wasn't ready for)
(like, she's really the one for him, but Cloud doesn't see it right then)

Other minor stuff, I'm not good with details- it's easier to let the soundtrack to the talking.

Ever listened to it separate from the game? (song/track "World Crisis")

See if it doesn't give you other ways to see it ?

I know it's probably doesn't mean much now, what with the LTD at the point that it's at, but isn't it fun to look again at parts of the compilation with the perspective of new (or forgotten) material?

Curious about what people think about it (or even other musics) adds to the narrative

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Thanks, robotwarui. Good points.

Since we're on the topic, I have another question. Is there any agreement among the fandom as to the meaning of the lines Cloud and Tifa exchange while they're hanging off the crumbling rock in the crater, namely:

Cloud: I think I know where I can meet her
Tifa: Yeah, let's go meet her.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, beyond a vague sense that Cloud is now reconciled to Aerith's death and believes that there is some way for them all to be reunited, either literally or figuratively. Is this supposed to mean that he will actually meet with Aerith herself, or is it something more metaphorical like, "I know that I can find her spirit in the new hope for a better future that we all now share" sort of thing?

Forgive me if this has all been thrashed out before. I wasn't a fan then and I missed it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As far as I know, that exchange has not been given a full official explanation. I'll have to check the Ultimania Omega, though. I think it may have said something about it. I'll get back to you.

 

[Dashell]

as for my view on this quote:

淡く幼い恋心

恋心 is just love, 'awakening' isn't part of the word itself and usually stuff like that would be shown with the addition of another word. and since it's a noun, which don't have tenses, it can't be in present tense in and of itself. you would need to look at the rest of the sentence for that.

淡く is basically the same as ほのか so everything that applied there can go here, and I don't have any comments on 幼い beyond childish/immature. I don't see 'fleeting' (I would have said 儚い for that), I see it not yet grown into something substantial or advanced yet.

so the way I see it is that it's basically the same as the ほのか に好意を寄せる (or was it 想いを寄せ&#12427 quote. and in a sense, if not literally what the Japanese text says, you could say it's the 'awakening of love' in that it's something that's not really reached a concrete or definite point but the early stirrings of love.

Which is EXACTLY what I repeated at least three times and STILL I got asked why words were left out. I don't care if you don't believe me, but don't act like I didn't even have an answer for you.

translating isn't always about replacing each original word for another, sometimes you can take the meaning and reword it and it's still fine. there's nothing wrong with that, because that is what translating should be about imho. not slavishly being fixated on getting every word exactly as it appears in the original into the target language. you might be accurate and technically correct, but the goal of a good translation should be invisibility in my view. you shouldn't read it and it feel like a translation. and if that means not using exactly the same structure and wording of the original text then so be it. as long as you've got the meaning conveyed. rigidly sticking to the original wording can lead to some godawful translations.

YES! Exactly. I cannot agree with this more if I tried. This remind me of my original Cait Sith translation. I wasn't sure how many creative liberties I could take and it resulted in some very wordy lines that Tres helped me fix.


I wouldn't mind it so much if it was honest criticism. But for someone to actually accuse someone here, or me of leaving out words on purpose when we've explained WHY we translated it that way, that's just annoying as fuck. It might not have bothered me so much if it wasn't (fuck it Imma say the name) Cali who was slandering people.

Oh, what's that Cali? Your "sister" suddenly knows Japanese? Interesting how that never came up before. Is this the same sister that we've proven time and time again doesn't even exist? I wonder how many people she shopped the quote around this time to find someone to tell her what she wanted to hear. I wonder how many "neutrals" or unknowing people took the time to translate the sentence for her that she ignored. Or maybe she just plopped it down into Google Translate or some other program. (Seriously, where does fleeting even come from? Not a single word in that entire sentence means fleeting.. WTF?)
EDIT
OH i see where she got fleeting from... never mind that part

And this isn't even bringing up the fact that THEY were the ones freaking out about it being in present tense only for me to tell them it was clearly talking about what he felt as a child. And who comes and questions me later about why I'M the one saying it's present tense...

And yes I know it wasn't MY translation that she was accusing of leaving out words.. but I don't care, it was one that I defended and explained to her. and how is slandering my friends any better than slandering me?


...

okay sorry I need to stop ranting about this... I don't even know why it bothers me so much. I knew in the back of my mind that it'd happen eventually. Blessed are we who can't be reliable translators because we ship the wrong thing


so yeah TLDR, still butthurt
Still wanna do translations, and maybe Cait Sith's profile again, so go ahead and throw that my way if you want... I swear this'll be my last rant about this... i tried not to but it just was eating up inside of me.. but okay I feel better now.


so uh

how about that... Cloud and Tifa holding favors for one another?