The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I think the quote under discussion is already a rather nice foundation to be built upon, Ryu. :monster:

Couple that with Kitase's "waver" quote and Nojima even bothering to discuss what a CloudxAerith relationship may have been like -- well, I'm not sure what you're looking for. Certainly none of that is on the level of "Cloud and Tifa have held favor for one another for many years," but I don't think anyone is trying to argue that position.

Just that Cloud definitely was in love with Tifa, yet also had a healthy romantic interest in Aerith.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I think the quote under discussion is already a rather nice foundation to be built upon, Ryu. :monster:

Couple that with Kitase's "waver" quote and Nojima even bothering to discuss what a CloudxAerith relationship may have been like -- well, I'm not sure what you're looking for. Certainly none of that is on the level of "Cloud and Tifa have held favor for one another for many years," but I don't think anyone is trying to argue that position.

Just that Cloud definitely was in love with Tifa, yet also had a healthy romantic interest in Aerith.

Okay THIS. This is what I mean... Cloud had a romantic interest in Aerith and not for reasons such as "hit it and quit it"

Thank you Tres.
 

Selphie Tilmitt

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Maidenofwar
Yeah, I read it as in genuinely interested as in he did care about her at the time and didn't just want to bang her for the the lolz or something then, and as in he genuinely cared about Aerith's well being and as a person at the time and wasn't just in it for his oats! :monster:

Marlene - I think she likes you Cloud
Cloud - Oh yeaah score baaaby *wink wink leer* Hit it!
Marlene - ....
Marlene "STUPID!!!" :rage:

Ok, maybe that's just me (sorry mens, maybe it's a girl thing on my end) *sweat*

**

Thanks again for your inputs over the Japanese Hawkeye, and I enjoyed reading your posts Kittie and Sikozu
:kittyhug:
I can definitely see where people are coming from if it was about Cloud including the others in grief for Aerith, I mean we did establish some posts earlier/on another page that Cloud wasn't a completely selfish unthinking insensitive jackass, at least I thought peeps did! :monster:

Well I guess everybody isn't completely selfless though, I guess I just have this selfish little inner voice or my Clerith side/vibes insisting it was about Cloud and Aerith and not saving the world or anything since Cloud had just said to/told Sephiroth his stupid plan to save the world didn't mean a thing and though it could be about including Avalanche in grief for Aerith he'd just sent them away so he could go to Aerith/the altar alone, and though Cloud and Aerith didn't exactly have a scene where they were alone and communicated/confirmed feelings in detail to be together like Cloud and Tifa, for me it was about the little things, and possibly the bigger things adding up, like Aerith offering Cloud a date and Cloud nodding/accepting, their date in the park where they do express some feelings I think in feelings of interest of getting to know each other, about their pasts, kind of like that with the banter on the roof tops while they were laughing/smiling/teasing together, revealing some stuffs as well like Aerith talking about Shinra and why she thought they might be after her, about SOLDIER, Cloud saying maybe she did, and asking if she wanted to join, and all, cute little two person interactions like that, lots of other stuffs that makes/sense means a lot to me but especially for this specific situation it was sort of like a run of scenes running into each other especially if you get the date with Aerith at the Gold Saucer too from that to Cait Sith's prediction over Cloud and Aerith's compatability and future, plans for getting a preacher, etc , I always just assumed that on some level Cloud was taking this all in and would perhaps think later with what about/we us about what others had said or done with regards to compatabilities or futures, or something \0/ Then Cloud and Aerith sharing mind space and him chasing after her, feeling her in his heart, where she was and the danger she was in from Sephiroth, and going to the altar to get her, well it just made sense to me there was some form of we/us going on with Cloud/Aerith already that did have a prediction for the future, so that in some way Aerith's death was also about Cloud's loss of Aerith especially since in Case of Tifa I think it's Tifa who says about the Forgotten City it was where specifically Cloud was parted from Aerith. Feel my Clerith vibes! :reptar:

Especially with the Marlene thing also being confirmed as feelings/interest being shown along with stuff like interest in each other/their pasts on the rooftops and in the park it makes sense to me there was something sort of kinda going on there (I know Octo but I is not TLS :shifty: Well I don't think everyone always speaks as one here, not really, regardless of what some might think about
TLS being one entity! :o
Sure, and all nobody's saying the Marlene quote canonizes or means Cloud is having an active/sexual/physical (meta-physical?) /romantic relationship with Aerith now just that he had interest in her at the time, definite implied favour which also makes sense with the hero who wavers between two heroines and the maybe things would have went better with Aerith, maybe as well as other stuff like Cloud apparently accepting Aerith's offer of a date, Square Enix saying they had a date in the park and saying stuffs like if you play the game normally Aerith is usually the one who normally/generally comes for the Gold Saucer date as well. I kinda think what people are saying/meaning/believing is Cloud/Aerith have enough official stuffs/input from Square Enix to have made it an official/canon possibility/pairing/ship/relationship with romantic implications/w-e albeit not a current living/active/practicing/active couple (unless it's in AU in some form or other :shifty: *flee*) like other canon couples in the series, but surely enough to propel it above completely fanon pairings like I dunno Squall/Selphie or Quistis/Seifer or Garnet/Steiner or Auron/Rikku (yes I've seen people shipping this o_o), etc/so on/ or something.

Seriously though back to the whole we/us deal scene, I think it was Hito who said earlier when this topic came up before about there being no right or wrong, no interp was confirmed or denied in the Japanese for those words specifically in that scene at least in of/itself so, which is nice (we're all right!) =)

I rambled on again :monster:

Edit - ... *looks up* and Hawkeye and Ques ninja in and put in even better than I ever could! :desu:

Also good lord, eleven smilies >__>, ok I have to seriously try and cut down on the smilies (but they are just so good for describing my emotes!), ok I removed some.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I think the quote under discussion is already a rather nice foundation to be built upon, Ryu. :monster:

For 'interest' sure. I suppose what I'm looking for is 'intent.'

Couple that with Kitase's "waver" quote and Nojima even bothering to discuss what a CloudxAerith relationship may have been like -- well, I'm not sure what you're looking for. Certainly none of that is on the level of "Cloud and Tifa have held favor for one another for many years," but I don't think anyone is trying to argue that position.

Mostly, I'm asking for something more solid to indicate an actual intent or serious interest, rather than hypotheticals, or indications of something that could become something else.

Just that Cloud definitely was in love with Tifa, yet also had a healthy romantic interest in Aerith.

Which is so unremarkably mundane as to make me wonder why such a big deal is being made of it. I don't doubt the boy would have had a healthy romantic interest in Jesse either, or Yuffie were she a few years older.

Similarly, however, I wouldn't be surprised if Serah had an interest in Noel, even knowing she's 100% committed to Snow.

I suppose I'm looking at the jump between 'he was interested' and 'he was interested in pursuing.'
Again, not because I'm inherently opposed to the idea, but A: We are the home of the method of rational 'prove it' methods and B: Sweet catharsis from ye badde olde days of having to prove Cloud ever actually like Tifa anyways (Which is technically as recent as last week if you look at right).

Okay THIS. This is what I mean... Cloud had a romantic interest in Aerith and not for reasons such as "hit it and quit it"

Thank you Tres.

I was being crude for comedy, Quex. Cloud doesn't strike me as the hit it and quit it type, but likewise, he also doesn't strike me as the type to bounce between women, even if he's wavering, even with his false persona. Especially since part of it was Zack, and even as a natural born flirt, Zack was a one woman man.
 

Kittie

General Eccentric
AKA
The Iron Witch
Yeah, I read it as in genuinely interested as in he did care about her at the time and didn't just want to bang her for the the lolz or something then, and as in he genuinely cared about Aerith's well being and as a person at the time and wasn't just in it for his oats! :monster:
Marlene - I think she likes you Cloud
Cloud - Oh yeaah score baaaby *wink wink leer* Hit it!
Marlene - ....
Marlene "STUPID!!!" :rage:

Ok, maybe that's just me (sorry mens, maybe it's a girl thing on my end) *sweat*

**

Thanks again for your inputs over the Japanese Hawkeye, and I enjoyed reading your posts Kittie and Sikozu
:kittyhug:
I can definitely see where people are coming from if it was about Cloud including the others in grief for Aerith, I mean we did establish some posts earlier/on another page that Cloud wasn't a completely selfish unthinking insensitive jackass, at least I thought peeps did! :monster:


Well I guess everybody isn't completely selfless though, I guess I just have this selfish little inner voice or my Clerith side/vibes insisting it was about Cloud and Aerith and not saving the world or anything since Cloud had just said to/told Sephiroth his stupid plan to save the world didn't mean a thing and though it could be about including Avalanche in grief for Aerith he'd just sent them away so he could go to Aerith/the altar alone, and though Cloud and Aerith didn't exactly have a scene where they were alone and communicated/confirmed feelings in detail to be together like Cloud and Tifa, for me it was about the little things, and possibly the bigger things adding up, like Aerith offering Cloud a date and Cloud nodding/accepting, their date in the park where they do express some feelings I think in feelings of interest of getting to know each other, about their pasts, kind of like that with the banter on the roof tops while they were laughing/smiling/teasing together, revealing some stuffs as well like Aerith talking about Shinra and why she thought they might be after her, about SOLDIER, Cloud saying maybe she did, and asking if she wanted to join, and all, cute little two person interactions like that, lots of other stuffs that makes/sense means a lot to me but especially for this specific situation it was sort of like a run of scenes running into each other especially if you get the date with Aerith at the Gold Saucer too from that to Cait Sith's prediction over Cloud and Aerith's compatability and future, plans for getting a preacher, etc , I always just assumed that on some level Cloud was taking this all in and would perhaps think later with what about/we us about what others had said or done with regards to compatabilities or futures, or something \0/ Then Cloud and Aerith sharing mind space and him chasing after her, feeling her in his heart, where she was and the danger she was in from Sephiroth, and going to the altar to get her, well it just made sense to me there was some form of we/us going on with Cloud/Aerith already that did have a prediction for the future, so that in some way Aerith's death was also about Cloud's loss of Aerith especially since in Case of Tifa I think it's Tifa who says about the Forgotten City it was where specifically Cloud was parted from Aerith. Feel my Clerith vibes! :reptar:

Especially with the Marlene thing also being confirmed as feelings/interest being shown along with stuff like interest in each other/their pasts on the rooftops and in the park it makes sense to me there was something sort of kinda going on there (I know Octo but I is not TLS :shifty: Well I don't think everyone always speaks as one here, not really, regardless of what some might think about
TLS being one entity! :o
Sure, and all nobody's saying the Marlene quote canonizes or means Cloud is having an active/sexual/physical (meta-physical?) /romantic relationship with Aerith now just that he had interest in her at the time, definite implied favour which also makes sense with the hero who wavers between two heroines and the maybe things would have went better with Aerith, maybe as well as other stuff like Cloud apparently accepting Aerith's offer of a date, Square Enix saying they had a date in the park and saying stuffs like if you play the game normally Aerith is usually the one who normally/generally comes for the Gold Saucer date as well. I kinda think what people are saying/meaning/believing is Cloud/Aerith have enough official stuffs/input from Square Enix to have made it an official/canon possibility/pairing/ship/relationship with romantic implications/w-e albeit not a current living/active/practicing/active couple (unless it's in AU in some form or other :shifty: *flee*) like other canon couples in the series, but surely enough to propel it above completely fanon pairings like I dunno Squall/Selphie or Quistis/Seifer or Garnet/Steiner or Auron/Rikku (yes I've seen people shipping this o_o), etc/so on/ or something.


Seriously though back to the whole we/us deal scene, I think it was Hito who said earlier when this topic came up before about there being no right or wrong, no interp was confirmed or denied in the Japanese for those words specifically in that scene at least in of/itself so, which is nice (we're all right!) =)

I rambled on again :monster:

Edit - ... *looks up* and Hawkeye and Ques ninja in and put in even better than I ever could! :desu:

Also good lord, eleven smilies >__>, ok I have to seriously try and cut down on the smilies (but they are just so good for describing my emotes!), ok I removed some.

Hello, MaidenofWar, thanks so much for reading my post! :) As for the “we” thing, for myself, I think that’s really the only instance where Cloud mentions the others, since the rest of what he says is centered on his own feelings regarding Aerith’s death. I don’t know, I could be wrong about this, but it felt as though he mentioned the group first, not necessarily out of courtesy or to simply generalize his feelings, but to express how, as a group, they would have to go on without Aerith. He then takes it to a personal level afterward. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s just the way it felt to me. Either way, his emotions are all over the place in that scene, and it’s understandable if he wasn’t thinking/speaking very clearly, while he held a lifeless Aerith and listened to Sephiroth’s laughter. :\

And, yes, like you, I do believe that Cloud showed an interest in Aerith. As Tres and so many others have pointed out with some of what Kitase and Nojima have said, there was something that Cloud must’ve felt for Aerith, although he obviously had feelings for Tifa, too. I’m not for sure how deep his affections for Aerith went romantically, but I do believe he felt some degree of affection for her. And this may be the less analytical side of me speaking, but I genuinely want to believe that it was the Cloud-Cloud part of him and not the Zack-Cloud part that did feel something for her; but I honestly can’t determine either way, since he was so messed up on the first disc.

However, I also believe that, after the Lifestream event, as well as the HAHW scene, his feelings for Tifa were established as something a little more, especially since, if you take the HAHW scene as canon, he confirmed his feelings with her. Either way, though, I believe he will always hold Aerith close in his heart. I’m just not for sure if it’s of a romantic nature now. If Aerith had lived, and Tifa had stayed in the background, then, yes, there could’ve been something more between them, certainly. As of now, though, I believe they have a very deep spiritual connection that transcends beyond that of romantic love. I’m not for sure if that makes any sense, but that’s how I view his relationship with Aerith. I really believe he places both Zack and Aerith on the same level now, as two people who will always have a place in his heart. And that gives me so many feels! ^.^
 
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JayM

Angry Lesbian
For 'interest' sure. I suppose what I'm looking for is 'intent.'

Mostly, I'm asking for something more solid to indicate an actual intent or serious interest, rather than hypotheticals, or indications of something that could become something else.

I don't see why Cloud saying "Let's hope so" doesn't qualify. Why would he hope so if he had no intent on pursuing?

(I have more thoughts on this but they are long and rambling and I need to sort them into coherent order first.)
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So, I ponied up $5 to get that "Sanctuary of Amusement" card from the FF Art Museum card collection (the official set printed by Square). For those who don't remember, it's the one with this quote that Clorith translated yeeeaaars ago:

The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A promised date that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now...
It came in the mail today, and I've taken a pic as well as transcribed it:

http://i.imgur.com/NBPl8Hx.jpg

マッチョな園長ディオが運営する世界最大の遊戯場ゴールドソーサー。クラウドたちは戦いの合間に何度もこの地を訪れた。ケット・シーとの出会い。チョコボスクエアで繰り広げられた数々のデッドヒート。そしてマジカルナイトの夜に果たされたデートの約束…。砂上に浮かぶ欲望の城に、二人の淡い想い出は今も眠る…。

「あなたの中に彼を見ていた… でも、ちがうの。今は、ちがう…。ね、クラウド。私、あなたを探してる」
(デートの最後、観覧車に乗った時のエアリスの言葉)

Given how things went the last time I was first to attempt translating something related to Cloud with 淡い (awai) in it, I'm hesitant to do so now. :monster: I think I'm going to let hito or JayM take a crack at it first.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
There's something about a chocobo in there.. I'll look closer after I take a shower...
 

JayM

Angry Lesbian
I was all like "Imma go to bed, lemme just peek at TLS one more time" and...well, here is my very quick attempt - please pick apart at will! :joy:

The Gold Saucer, the world’s largest amusement park, run by its macho director, Dio. Cloud’s group visited this place many times between fights. The encounter with Cait Sith. Chocobo Square, where so many close races* unfolded. And the magical night** when the promise of a date was fulfilled… In the palace of desire that floats on the sand, the faint memories of two people are still held…***

“I was seeing him in you. …But, it’s different. It’s different now… Cloud? I want to meet you.”
(End of the date, Aeris’ words in the gondola)

*Aiming for "readable English" rather than "literal translation" - "dead heat" is the term the Japanese uses but I couldn't think of anything similarly intense that didn't sound weird.

**Is there any significance to the fact that "magical night" is written out in kana here? Is this the proper name of something in the game that I'm forgetting? Because I can't see why they did マジカルナイトの夜. I mean I guess as opposed to マジカルナイトの日? :monster:

***I am not awake enough to make this sound decent in English and I'm not 100% I've got the right idea here. I'm reading it as the 淡い想い出 is the thing still sleeping, so not the memories themselves but the outpouring of them (出), hence the memories are contained. Edit from phone: except that's OMOIDE and this is why i should not nihongo before sleep.

Edit: I have a feeling what's going to be a point of contention is the fact that Cloud and Aeris aren't specified to be the "two people," but the quote is specifically Aeris's date. I mean, ya'll know this already so I guess I'm just making this note for myself, but.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Never mind :monster:


**Is there any significance to the fact that "magical night" is written out in kana here? Is this the proper name of something in the game that I'm forgetting? Because I can't see why they did マジカルナイトの夜. I mean I guess as opposed to マジカルナイトの日?
I was wondering this too... it's an odd thing to spell out in English. But at least we won't be sitting here wondering whether or not they really intended the meaning to be "magical night" or not :P

***I am not awake enough to make this sound decent in English and I'm not 100% I've got the right idea here. I'm reading it as the 淡い想い出 is the thing still sleeping, so not the memories themselves but the outpouring of them (出), hence the memories are contained. Edit from phone: except that's OMOIDE and this is why i should not nihongo before sleep.
Is Faint Memories okay? Like the original translation used?
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
I won't bother trying to translate because I'm in my phone trying to fall asleep right now :monster: but I'm not sure I have much to add now.

淡い想い出 is interesting, I've not seen that before (that I recall now). I had a little look with Google at how people use it, and a lot of the results are nostalgic/romantic. Like memories of your adolescence, your first loves, unreciprocated love, the time when you were newly wed.

I guess the sense I've gotten so far is that they are nice, yet faint memories. They're not super vivid or strongly emotional, but they're still there somewhere.

Which, together with the 眠る here, seems a little strange. Because those are making it feel to me like it's talking about something that happened some time ago.

マジカルナイト is pretty awesome, I want to use that now. I'm half tempted to day perhaps that's the given name of the special night at the Gold Saucer? I think there was a special night when they had the date, anyway.

I would go find a セリフ集 to check but I'm not gonna.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
If anyone's curious as to the card's wider LTD significance:

As I recall, the point of contention was over whether the card should be read as the promised date "results in a magical night" or "ends magically." The argument from at least one individual was that it "ends magically," thus indicating that Cloud and Aerith kissed during the fireworks or some such thing.

We can, of course, now see that the "results in" reading is what it should be taken as. The card is referring to the entire date, not the end of it.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
I'd say that it's just the promise it was talking about, 果たされたデートの約束. The promise for a date was fulfilled. Edit; I mean what Jay said, I'm a dumbass.

And I found this from Googling but might look more later, but Magical Night seems to be the name of the event where the attractions are all free.

さあ、今夜はマジカルナイト! すべてのアトラクションは無料になっているよ。
 

Vendel

Banned
And I found this from Googling but might look more later, but Magical Night seems to be the name of the event where the attractions are all free.

さあ、今夜はマジカルナイト! すべてのアトラクションは無料になっているよ。

Yep, apparently so:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown/5186/novel/nov05_1.htm

There be a Japanese script. So, "the promised date is fulfilled the night of the Magical Night." :monster: It was "Enchantment Night" in the official English localization.


So the event is the "magical night"? And not the date or what happened at the end of it?

Oh dears.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
So the event is the "magical night"? And not the date or what happened at the end of it?

Oh dears.

I see your wah wah wah video and I raise you mine:


As I recall, the point of contention was over whether the card should be read as the promised date "results in a magical night" or "ends magically." The argument from at least one individual was that it "ends magically," thus indicating that Cloud and Aerith kissed during the fireworks or some such thing.
No I think the kissing after the fireworks was something separate. IIRC, though, there was a fuss was over "City of Desire" though, which seems accurate anyway.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I double-checked. That was the disagreement I was personally involved in. "City of Desire" was part of the reasoning, yes, but the conclusion being argued for was that "ends in a magical night" must mean something happened during the fireworks at the end of the gondola ride.

So, yeah, that part was wrong.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu


Couldn't resist.

Oh, and JayM, hoping someone's interested isn't enough to show he was seriously interested in pursuing, especially since he was already interested in pursuing someone else, and even Zacloud does not seem the type to try and date two women at once.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
At that point in time, we don't know if Composite Cloud had even resolved to pursue anyone, though. It's safe to say he didn't even recall the extent of his interest in Tifa until later.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
My main objection is that the Gold Saucer could ever be described as a 'City of Desire' place is tacky as hell. And you just know that theres that weird water/pee stuff on the slides you use to get around. :monster:
 
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